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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Midlothian => Topic started by: Montana272 on Sunday 16 May 10 22:28 BST (UK)
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Upon reading a death record for my 3rd G Grandmother in 1845 it stated that she is buried in "smeatons ground" This was in Edinburgh. I have searched on google for such a place. There is no mention of a burial place called Smeaton. Has anyone ever heard of this before? On the list of people buried she was the only one put here. I did find that there is a place called Smeatons House, and that they did find a grave stone there, when excavating but that stone was to be dated in the 15th century. This cannot be the same place. I can only guess that this just was a place where people were buried if they did not have any money. And that this place is long gone and never was an actual Cemetery. I was just wondering if anyone else had come across something on that line?
Montana
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Hi Montana,
Perhaps the Smeaton Family purchased an 'enclosure' or the like in one of the Edinburgh Churchyards - an area a good bit larger than a normal individual Lair/Plot and it became known as Smeaton's Ground (as in Burial Ground/Area belonging to Smeaton)?
Anne
P.S. Have a look here: http://www.edinburgh.gov.uk/internet/leisure/libraries/explore_your_library/family_history/cec_edinburgh_graves_for_the_family_historian
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Thank you for taking the time to respond, and Thanks for the link. It is great. And You are right.
I did get a response back from ScotlandsPlaces. And I guess This is actually a place called "Grounds of Smeaton" The record describes Smeaton house, parish church and an associated graveyard. Thanks again. You thought of something I never even thought of.
Montana
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Hello Montana
Did you find the Smeaton's burying ground at all. I too have an ancestor buried in the same grounds but can't find it.
I would appreciate the name of the churchyard please, if you have it.
Kindest regards
Kristina
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Hi, Not really. When was your relative buried there? I am thinking without looking that mine was buried in 1845 They did have a "Smeaton's house" way back when, but, there is no grave yard there. It still is a bit of a mystery. What town was your relative from? Thanks
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I worked out that Smeaton is near Dalkeith (thats where my ancestor resided) Margaret Cameron died 1835 14 Feb buried 15 Feb 172 DC east of Smeaton's ground. I have an old map that sorts it out a bit so i will send it to you, but it suggests the name has changed from Smithton to Smeaton and Crebarrin is Carberry. The place name of the 'loaning' is referred to 'has not survived'. It suggested that a road led south from Inversk and the the land lay to the EAST of the this in the 'Loaning" (usually a strip of land for moving cattle) would then have led from Smeaton over to the wood of Carberry. Following the west side of this wood, led to a main road running between Haddington and Newbattle. So there must be a stone or something there with our ancestors buried there. :) Who is your ancestor? http://http//www.oldroadsofscotland.com/Miscmedeastlothian.htm#smeaton
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Her son William Cameron died in 1858 and was buried in Warriston Cemetery and that opened about 1848 (from memory) I am not sure what the DC means after the number 172 DC East of Smeaton's Ground or is it RC as they were Roman Catholic.
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Upon reading a death record for my 3rd G Grandmother in 1845 it stated that she is buried in "smeatons ground" This was in Edinburgh. I have searched on google for such a place. There is no mention of a burial place called Smeaton. Has anyone ever heard of this before?
I will be very surprised if 'Smeatons Ground' was not a lair that belonged to a family named Smeaton. If you found the burial in an Edinburgh parish register, this will be a lair in an Edinburgh cemetery.
I would suggest that your first line of enquiry should be checking the records of Warriston Cemetery. This Cemetery was open by June 1843, when a relative of mine was buried there The Warriston Cemetery records are very good. They are in the care of Edinburgh City Council. See http://www.edinburgh.gov.uk/info/20019/burials_and_cremations/316/burial_records
If you are intent on pursuing a Smeaton somewhere outside Edinburgh, the 'Scotland's Places' Gazetteer finds two places named Smeaton. One in the parish of Inveresk, and one in the parish of Prestonkirk in West Lothian. RCAHMS finds 58 references http://canmore.rcahms.gov.uk/en/search/?keyword=smeaton&submit=search&show=all or (map version) http://canmoremapping.rcahms.gov.uk/index.php?action=do_simple&sitename=smeaton&show=all
For the avoidance of doubt, I happen to know Smeaton House in Carberry Road, Inveresk, next to what was originally Inveresk Railway Station, and I can assure you absolutely that there is no 19th century burial ground there. The house is one of a row of Victorian villas on the west side of the road from Inveresk to Dalkeith. They are not shown on the First Edition Ordnance Survey six-inch map, published in 1854.
There is also Smeaton Park nearby, and Smeaton Dairy, Colliery, Shaw and other features a mile or two south-west. They are all on http://maps.nls.uk/view/74426707 but I have not found any indication of a burial ground there. This is now marked as Home Farm on the maps, and is described by RCAHMS as Dalkeith Home Farm, though it is still in the parish of Inveresk.
Then there is Smeaton Hepburn, further away, in the parish of Prestonkirk, East Lothian, and various other even more distant places, some of which are tagged Smeaton because they were designed by the engineer and bridge-builder of that name.
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Thank you. Her name is Anne Gibson, but I have not been able to find anything on her maiden name. I don't even know if she was born "Anne" or just called that. The census in 1840 only list her once as she died in 1845, her date of birth is confusing because the death record has a 43y on it, and not sure if that means her age, but it is a 10 year difference from the census record. Unless it was transposed by mistake and meant 34y instead. So confusing. I know it is her for sure, and it just says buried "Smeaton's Ground" I was hoping Smeaton was a family name and a plot of land. It is sad when you come to a dead end when trying to find out information on family history. I was grasping at straws trying to find anything else, but the road has stopped. I am going to keep searching for any connection with a family named "smeaton" in hopes that I can find out who her parents were. They were really poor, because after her death, I saw the boys Robert, and James in the Dalkeith poor house. The father Daniel Gibson, seemed to vanish with no death record, but I know he survived until 1858 when his daughter (Margaret) was married because it says that her father was alive.
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Hmmm.
Is this the family at 29 Wester Portsburgh, Edinburgh St Cuthberts in 1841, consisting of Daniel Gibson, 35, Anne Gibson, 30, Henry, Margaret, James, and Robert plus Mary Marshal, 40 and Alexander Marshal, 9? Are you looking at the original census, or at a transcription?
The census transcription (http://www.freecen.org.uk/cgi/search.pl) says that Daniel, Henry and Mary were hawkers. This suggests to me that they were probably, as you say, fairly poor, and possibly illiterate, so it is very possible that they gave wrong information about their ages to the census enumerator. They could have been itinerant; many hawkers were.
If this is the right family, I see that most of the family were not born in Midlothian. Only Robert, aged 1, and Alexander Marshal, are listed as born in Midlothian.
In which parish did you find the burial record? How do you know for sure that it is your Anne Gibson? Again, are you looking at the original or at a transcription? If you are looking at the original, how are the names of other women recorded - in particular, are they listed as 'x or y' or are they all just listed with a single surname?
Does Margaret's marriage certificate specifically say that her father was alive in 1858, or does it just not say that he was deceased? Who does the marriage certificate say that her mother was? What was the religious denomination of the marriage?
The first line of enquiry should be to find out whether the records of Dalkeith poor house have survived, and if so to look up the records of Robert and James. If you are lucky and they have survived, they should tell you quite a lot about the family and their circumstances, and in particular where they came from.
I note with great interest the marriage of a Daniel Gibson to Ann Marshall in Forres, Moray, on 25 January 1820. Could Ann(e) Gibson have been Ann(e) Marshall, and could Mary Marshall be her sister or sister-in-law? Or is this a speculation too far?
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Thank you. Her name is Anne Gibson, but I have not been able to find anything on her maiden name. I don't even know if she was born "Anne" or just called that. The census in 1840 only list her once as she died in 1845, her date of birth is confusing because the death record has a 43y on it, and not sure if that means her age, but it is a 10 year difference from the census record. Unless it was transposed by mistake and meant 34y instead. So confusing. I know it is her for sure, and it just says buried "Smeaton's Ground" I was hoping Smeaton was a family name and a plot of land. It is sad when you come to a dead end when trying to find out information on family history. I was grasping at straws trying to find anything else, but the road has stopped. I am going to keep searching for any connection with a family named "smeaton" in hopes that I can find out who her parents were. They were really poor, because after her death, I saw the boys Robert, and James in the Dalkeith poor house. The father Daniel Gibson, seemed to vanish with no death record, but I know he survived until 1858 when his daughter (Margaret) was married because it says that her father was alive.
The 1841 census allowed for people to round down their age to the nearest 5. So a 44yo person could have 40 on the census sheet. Also if as you said the family were poor, it could be that there is no monument. Where did you find the death details of your Anne Gibson. It would be interesting to find out.
Tom
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Attached is the extracted image from the OPR which I assume is the person you are looking for. Maiden name is "Gilmour" and 1 P.N. is One pace north of Smeaton's ground. There are references in this page to areas of the Canongate Churchyard Edinburgh which I have seen before.
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Hi Unė kthimi i papenduar,
Well done, that seems to be the record.
Tom
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Hi All,
This seems to be their marriage record, https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/XTBN-TMQ (https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/XTBN-TMQ)
Surprisingly married in Govan on 08 Nov 1833.
Tom
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Hello, so 172 DC???? east of Smeaton Ground would be ??? Thanks so much for the great information...
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Well found!
If ever there were a classic example of always checking the original source for details, this is it :)
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so 172 DC east of Smeaton Ground would be .....
.... a mistranscription?
There is no way anyone with reasonable eyesight could have mistranscribed "1 P N" in the extract posted by Unė kthimi i papenduar as "172 D C". Nor could they have missed the maiden surname. Therefore Montana's original information must presumably have come from a different source.
What exactly was that source, Montana?
At least it suggests that all these Smeatons out in the country are red herrings.
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Hi All,
Forfarian, I think, it was KristinaCameron, who first raised the "172 DC" Perhaps KristinaCameron can put part of the image where she got that information from on here. If you cannot do that and it is online, can you give us a link to it please, maybe we can solve the transcription issue.
Tom
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You're right, Tom.
But it was Montana who said, "Her name is Anne Gibson, but I have not been able to find anything on her maiden name."
If Montana had been looking at the original as posted by Unė kthimi i papenduar, (s)he would have known that Anne Gibson's maiden name was Gilmour.
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........Margaret Cameron died 1835 14 Feb buried 15 Feb 172 DC east of Smeaton's ground.
Hi Forfarian,
The record that "Unė kthimi i papenduar" posted was for Ann(e) Gibson nee Gilmour, but the 172 DC referred to a Margaret Cameron.
Tom
PS I find it strange that can find no record of Smeatons Ground in Canongate Kirkyard, there are no Smeatons buried there according to Find-A-Grave.com.
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The record that "Unė kthimi i papenduar" posted was for Ann(e) Gibson nee Gilmour, but the 172 DC referred to a Margaret Cameron.
Mea culpa.
PS I find it strange that can find no record of Smeatons Ground in Canongate Kirkyard, there are no Smeatons buried there according to Find-A-Grave.com.
Does Find-a-grave have burial records as oppoed to inscriptions? Could it just be that there was never a stone for Smeaton, or that any stone has not survived?
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Yes! Those are the records that I found on scotlandspeople.com Here is the strange part. My other family line from Scotland, is Robert Marshall, and Margaret Marshall. I don't know who Mary and Alexander Marshall are in the census that are with Daniel and Anne, As I do not know who Robert and Margaret (whitehead) parents are either. But Margaret Marshall, their daughter, married James Gibson, Anne and Daniels son. Too many Margaret names in these trees, so very confusing. But I don't get the Marshall connection to Anne and Daniel, other than of course the marriage between Margaret Marshall and James Gibson. And if you look on the death record of Anne, it has a tiny 43y or g, and I assumed possible her age. The daughter Margaret (Gibson) on her marriage certificate just listed her mother Anne as deceased but not her father it says nothing. I have searched all death records of Daniel and nothing fits. I cannot find any birth records for Anne Gilmour that suggests that Mary Marshall could have been her sister and even odd still that My Marshalls, married into the Gibson family if they were related? or ? I am so confused on these two families. This is where my road ended with the both of them. I have old records of Roberts bad behavior and his time in jail, nothing links them together, as Mary Marshall ( the one with the Gibson's ) who is listed with Alexander who was 9 years old, found a birth record listing with Mary Marshall as the mother, but a Robert Marshall as the father???? But this Marshall did not seem to fit my Robert Marshall, who also was a Hawker, who lived in Fife, married my Margaret Whitehead, in 1825, still with her in 1841 as he beat her up and sent to jail, and died in 1851 in path fife. No death record for Margaret Whitehead his wife. She just disappeared. I thought Mary Marshall could have been Margaret (whitehead) but the birth records of an Alexander born Midlothian to Mary and Robert don't match what I know about Robert. Confusing isn't it?
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Hi Montana,
You mention that James and Robert Gibson are in Dalkeith Poorhouse. Which Census is this please?
There is a Daniel Gibson, widower in Dalkeith on 1851 Census . His age is given as 55. :-\
Looby :)
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Oh wonderful, does it give much information? The census was the following year 1851 and it gave the Dalkeith poorhouse roster list with James and I believe his brother Robert but names were not together. It said in the ED" The Orphan Hospital" parish number 685/2 and Roberts says in the ED St Cuthberts Charity Workhouse. Sorry might have been confused on Dalkeith, as james died in the Dalkeith Poorhouse later in life.
Hi Montana,
You mention that James and Robert Gibson are in Dalkeith Poorhouse. Which Census is this please?
There is a Daniel Gibson, widower in Dalkeith on 1851 Census . His age is given as 55. :-\
Looby :)
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This is a transcription found on FreeCen -
Brotherstons Close, Dalkeith
James Gibson head Married 24 Hawker unlicensed born Berwickshire Swinton
Margret Gibson wife " 23 Hawker's wife Stirlingshire Falkirk
Robert Gibson son 2 Hawker's son born Midlothian Dalkeith
Daniel Gibson nephew widowed 55 Tin Smith Lanarkshire Glasgow
Robert Gibson visitor unmarried 15 Scholar born Berwickshire Tweedmouth.
Obviously don't knowfor certain yet that this Daniel is your man. But he is from Glasgow where I believe your couple married. All above as transcribed (spelling etc) . Daniel being nephew of the head of house seems a bit odd. Perhaps it should be uncle???
Looby :)
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Sorry, I meant that Anne Gibson ( Gilmore) or Gilmour, does not have a birth record under that name that fits the age on the census. That is what I meant by nothing on her maiden name meaning could not find anything by her maiden name. Sorry.
You're right, Tom.
But it was Montana who said, "Her name is Anne Gibson, but I have not been able to find anything on her maiden name."
If Montana had been looking at the original as posted by Unė kthimi i papenduar, (s)he would have known that Anne Gibson's maiden name was Gilmour.
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Hold the bus Montana!
Don't think that Daniel Gibson is your man.
I've found another Daniel Gibson age 47 Tin Smith on the 1841 Census at Falkirk.
He could more that likely be our Dalkeith Daniel.
Sorry :-[
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That is so strange, because James father should be Daniel because that is what his marriage record and death record state. and His brother Robert is listed as visitor. Could there just have been a mistake?? so confusing what year did you find this one in? I will check the copies I have and see what census records I have, but will have to be later in the day, as I have to run out
This is a transcription found on FreeCen -
Brotherstons Close, Dalkeith
James Gibson head Married 24 Hawker unlicensed born Berwickshire Swinton
Margret Gibson wife " 23 Hawker's wife Stirlingshire Falkirk
Robert Gibson son 2 Hawker's son born Midlothian Dalkeith
Daniel Gibson nephew widowed 55 Tin Smith Lanarkshire Glasgow
Robert Gibson visitor unmarried 15 Scholar born Berwickshire Tweedmouth.
Obviously don't knowfor certain yet that this Daniel is your man. But he is from Glasgow where I believe your couple married. All above as transcribed (spelling etc) . Daniel being nephew of the head of house seems a bit odd. Perhaps it should be uncle???
Looby :)
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Oh please do not be sorry, so many names the same! And plus you are helping me! I have been so lost over all this, and it is so kind of you for checking! Thank you so very much.
Hold the bus Montana!
Don't think that Daniel Gibson is your man.
I've found another Daniel Gibson age 47 Tin Smith on the 1841 Census at Falkirk.
He could more that likely be our Dalkeith Daniel.
Sorry :-[
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No problem.
Did you find Margaret on the 1851 Census (after her mother dies and before she marries)?
If so where is she please?
Looby :)
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Hello
Not sure how to attach a small link but I found it on Scotland'speople in the OPR for Edinburgh
Margaret Cameron 14/02/1835
Thanks for your help
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Hi All,
I have downloaded the OPR that KristinaCameron was concerned about, for a Margaret Cameron. I have attached part of the image for recognition purposes.
I think the part containing "172 DC" is "1 1/2 Deep Pace East of Smeatons Ground" Which I think could mean 1 and half yards Deep, Pace East of Smeatons Ground. It is the second bottom one on the list, added the others to help comparison.
Tom
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Is this one Margaret Gibson? If so I did find her death record with the names Daniel Gibson, and Anne Gilmour as her parents, I did not find anything in 1851 census
No problem.
Did you find Margaret on the 1851 Census (after her mother dies and before she marries)?
If so where is she please?
Looby :)
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Hi Montana,
My previous post is for a Margaret Cameron who was also buried in the Canongate Kirkyard.
Tom
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Oh, thanks too many Margaret's!
Hi Montana,
My previous post is for a Margaret Cameron who was also buried in the Canongate Kirkyard.
Tom
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Oh, thanks too many Margaret's!
Hi Montana,
My previous post is for a Margaret Cameron who was also buried in the Canongate Kirkyard.
Tom
Thank you Tom. Now I can see the 1/2 and it makes sense. I am sorry if you had to pay for this. I am happy to search something for you if you need it. So the 'Smeaton Grounds' is in fact at Canongate Burial grounds. Is that correct? Thanks for your time.
Kristina
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Hi Kristina,
No problem, I think the Smeaton Ground refers to something in Canongate Kirkyard. If you look t the other entries, they include reference to "West of Thos Millars Headstone", South of John Grays Headst(sic)" so look like points where undertaker can measure and find plots etc. I searched on Find - A-Grave.com in Canongate Kirkyard, but could find no Smeaton buried there, strange.
Tom
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No problem, I think the Smeaton Ground refers to something in Canongate Kirkyard. If you look t the other entries, they include reference to "West of Thos Millars Headstone", South of John Grays Headst(sic)" so look like points where undertaker can measure and find plots etc. I searched on Find - A-Grave.com in Canongate Kirkyard, but could find no Smeaton buried there, strange.
Nor are there any Gibsons there according to Find-a-Grave.
Is the absence of a Smeaton headstone, even in the 1830s and 1840s, perhaps the reason why the burials of Anne Gilmour or Gibson and Margaret Farquhar or Cameron are located in relation to 'Smeaton's Ground' whereas other burials are located in relation to 'xxx's headstone'? I think Find-a-Grave records inscriptions rather than burial records, and there are usually many more burials than headstones in most cemeteries.
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Thanks everyone. At least we have an idea of this mystery. Kristina, our relatives are buried together. This is the first time I have heard that someone else had a relative buried in " Smeaton Ground" Thank you again. I think that I might see about the Cannongate old cemetery records, just in case I find a Smeaton. I doubt that I will find anything with a reference stone to Anne, as I know they were too poor to buy a headstone. If I find anything else I will be sure to post it here.
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For those interested, there is still standing a stone erected by Thos Millar in memory of his father.
A theory for Smeaton's ground:
The burial place of:
Sir George Buchan later Buchan-Hepburn of Smeaton Hepburn, 1st Bt.
born
1738
died
26 Jun 1819
Sir John Buchan-Hepburn of Smeaton Hepburn, 2nd Bt.
born
17 Jun 1776
died
8 Oct 1833
Further investigation required.
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Hi Unė kthimi i papenduar,
As usual, another good find. Was that as a result of an actual on site visit, or online records. Did you find any reference to Smeatons Ground there?
Tom
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Combination of both. There was a picture of a headstone on "google" images which looked like Millar
and a quick visit to confirm.
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Thanks everyone. At least we have an idea of this mystery. Kristina, our relatives are buried together. This is the first time I have heard that someone else had a relative buried in " Smeaton Ground" Thank you again. I think that I might see about the Cannongate old cemetery records, just in case I find a Smeaton. I doubt that I will find anything with a reference stone to Anne, as I know they were too poor to buy a headstone. If I find anything else I will be sure to post it here.
Isn't it lovely that these kind people have taken the time to help us. I now lie in bed hoping the next day i can come in here and find yet another clue to my elusive Cameron family. I am very greatful. It's nice to also think that 2 of their descendants are looking for them. Kindest regards Kristina Cameron.
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Combination of both. There was a picture of a headstone on "google" images which looked like Millar
and a quick visit to confirm
That is a wonderful find. Thanks so much. I live in New Zealand in the North Island. I am happy to go and take photos of MI's if needed in the area of Auckland if you have any ancestors there.
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Margaret Cameron who is buried in Smeaton's Ground 1835 was married to Farquhar Cameron. I have his discharge papers with some interesting information that has helped me find his birth place. He was born in the Parish of Kilmorack?? On his discharge in 1808 he was at the soldiers hospital in Ireland. Is it possible he would have stayed there or did the soldiers get taken back to there homeland? I am wondering if they would bury a soldier in the same grounds as his wife Margaret Cameron? I can't find a death for him or a birth. I have been reading about all the regiments he was in and looks like Ireland was an area. He was in the 2nd Garrison and the Captain was Cameron and the Lieutenant was John Robinson and one other name John Smith. He was also in the 97th foot, 74th foot, 26th foot and the Marines in Portsmouth. This was all from 1794 - 1808. Thanks in advance. Kristina Cameron
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Margaret Cameron who is buried in Smeaton's Ground 1835 was married to Farquhar Cameron. I have his discharge papers with some interesting information that has helped me find his birth place. He was born in the Parish of Kilmorack
Inverness-shire. See http://www.geograph.org.uk/gridref/NH4944
On his discharge in 1808 he was at the soldiers hospital in Ireland. Is it possible he would have stayed there or did the soldiers get taken back to there homeland?
Many did go home, but not necessarily all.
I am wondering if they would bury a soldier in the same grounds as his wife Margaret Cameron?
If he died in Edinburgh too, you would expect them to be buried together. But if he died somewhere else, then they probably wouldn't take him a long way to be buried with her, or vice versa. Burial was normally in the nearest graveyard to where the person died.
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Thank you Forfarian.
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See http://www.geograph.org.uk/gridref/NH4944
That looks a lovely place. The little church is so quaint. I used to have a dream for many years and could never figure out the place...as years went by the house on the hill i used to dream about was still there and there used to be a huge lake river....much like this place you sent me Forfarian. I am starting to think maybe that has been my dream all along...the house on the hill is the kirk....
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Canongate Kirkyard memorial:
"To the memory of the soldiers who died in Edinburgh Castle, situated in the parish of Canongate, interred herewith military honours from the year 1692 to 1880. "Death called them away from the martial ranks and sad was each comrades tread as they bore them along to the march in Saul Midst crowds to their lonely bed But their countrys sons will around this stone Oft speak of the deeds of the brave And gratefully look on the grassy sod That grows oer the soldiers grave"
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That is touching. Thank you for sharing that with us.
Canongate Kirkyard memorial:
"To the memory of the soldiers who died in Edinburgh Castle, situated in the parish of Canongate, interred herewith military honours from the year 1692 to 1880. "Death called them away from the martial ranks and sad was each comrades tread as they bore them along to the march in Saul Midst crowds to their lonely bed But their countrys sons will around this stone Oft speak of the deeds of the brave And gratefully look on the grassy sod That grows oer the soldiers grave"
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Hello Montana,
I was reviewing some of my old entries and came across your posting. You were looking for Ann(e) GIBSON's maiden name which I believe is GILMOUR. She was married to Daniel GIBSON who died in Glasgow on 11th August 1871. Daniel remarried someone called Mary, sadly I still have not found her maiden name, nor know if there were any children from this marriage (most unlikely), nor do I have any evidence that they did actually marry.
I notice that you are researching the GILMOUR surname so may now know some of this information.
Daniel GIBSON is my wife's 2nd Great-grandfather.
Leslie Williamson
living in Bonnie Scotland