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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => London and Middlesex => England => London & Middlesex Lookup Requests => Topic started by: wjough on Tuesday 18 May 10 20:29 BST (UK)
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I have a problem with a James Cecil born at Westminster about 1640. He married Margaret Manners 1 Oct 1661 and seemed a nice guy, but another James Cecil crops up also married to Margaret, same dates, but he was born in Salisbury and his ancestors can be traced back to the twelth century.
I don't believe all these Earls and Lords are my ancestors but how can I determine which is the genuine James ?.
All this information has been obtained from Familysearch.org.
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Hi wjough
Please be aware that there are 2 types of records on the IGI (family search)
Extracted are taken from the actual parish records and on the whole are fairly accurate although there are ommisions where writing can't be deciphered, pages damaged & missing etc
Submitted entries (the 1661 marriage for example) should be treated with extreme caution, they are often someone's best guess, nothing more.
You need to verify all the entries you have found on the IGI by actually looking at the registers or copies on microfilm etc.
Westminster registers have been deposited at the City of Westminster Archives.
http://westminster.gov.uk/services/libraries/archives/
Other London parishes have deposited there registers at the London Metropolitan Archives, these registers are in the process of being digitised and what has been done so far is now indexed and online at Ancestry and available by subscription or at your local library if they subscribe to Ancestry Library Edition.
Due to copyright & licensing terms and conditions, you may not ask for look-ups from the LMA/Ancestry dataset.
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Hi
If you have access to Ancestry, there is a tree on there which has this family ie James Cecil/Margaret Manners going back to Philp Cecil in 1441. I don't know how well sourced it is. If you don't already subscribe Ancestry often have 14 day free trial offers.
Jan
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Thanks Jan ,
I have no trouble going back with this family to the early twelth century. My difficulty is extending them forward to tie up with Mary Cecil born 1790 in Bethnal Green. I have Thomas born 1754 in Bethnal Green and Sarah Waterlow,Charles born 1718 in Bethnal Green and Judith Madelaine Raby,Charles born 1694 in Westminster and Elizabeth Lumley,Robert born 1670 and Elizabeth Meynel, and then James born 1640 in Westminster and Margaret Manners.
I feel that two families have been crossed over some where, or has there been some skulduggery ?. I think that the clue is the change from Bethnal Green to Westminster.
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I have only recently come across the Cecil family, when I decided to extend my research further with my maternal side of the family. Starting with Sarah Elizabeth Cecil b.1834 I followed the Cecil line back, admittedly using the Ancestry Website, and was astounded by what I uncovered. I always suspected that I had Huguenot ancestors and I had this confirmed.
When my search took me into the realms of the aristocracy, I became sceptical, as I think all genealogical researchers should be, but the overwhelming amount of information regarding this family of the Cecils and the number of people involved in the search left me in little doubt that most of us were, in general ,on the right track.
With regard to the question of the origin of James Cecil 1646-1683. We should be viewing the area of Bethnal Green as it was in the 1600s, not as it became 200 years later.with vast brickfields and Victorian rookeries. You would have to go back into land ownership of the past and ascertain if the birth was recorded in more than one parish record, owing to the multiple residences that were used by the family. I am willing to believe that only one James Cecil is important to this line, mainly owing to the fact that all other persons before and after, such as Charles 1619 and Robert with his wife Elizabeth Meynell fall into place.
My search began with my grandmother Elizabeth Stump 1879 and finished on the Isle of Anglesea in the 900s with a few very big surprises on the way.
Does anyone else have a similar experience. Pacemaker
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The ancestry trees appear fine to me but only up to Charles Cecil, who married the Huguenot decendant Judith Madelaine Raby. The only information recorded about him on their marriage was he was of Bethnal Green and a Weaver. His burial record only gives a name, no age, and no age recorded on the marriage either, so no evidence appears to exist, which would allow an approximate guess at his age or the year he was born. I can find no possible baptism for him in any case, even allowing for a wide margin of error for possible birth dates.
None of the online trees have any evidence or explanation how it has been proved he was the son of Charles Cecil and Elizabeth Lumley. (I wouldn't take the fact so many researchers have this as testament to its credibility, unfortunately online trees, and mistakes there on, tend to be copied ad finitum on Ancestry and other websites). I'm not saying they neccesarily are wrong, but it seems a huge leap of faith would be needed to accept them as they are, I would be very cautious of going further back without seeing evidence of that link, particularly if that family were not even in the Bethnal Green area, or the same side of London, but over in Westminster.
Regards
Richard
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I have found these records of him on 'London Lives'.
http://www.londonlives.org/browse.jsp?id=BBBRMG20206_n1095-1&div=BBBRMG20206MG202060084#highlight
http://www.londonlives.org/browse.jsp?id=BBBRMG20206_n1095-5&div=BBBRMG20206MG202060084#highlight
http://www.londonlives.org/browse.jsp?id=BBBRMG20206_n1343-4&div=BBBRMG20206MG202060113#highlight
This shows he was apprenticed as a Silk Weaver at the Bridewell Royal Hospital, which at that time was near the River Fleet in the west of the city of London, (so not far from Westminster at all), from 1730 to 1738, and at the finish went to set up shop in St John Street, Spitalfields (the parish neighbouring Bethnal Green), where they continued to support him with charity payments. Boys were usually apprenticed aged 10- 14, so his birth date would very likely be around 1716-20.
The Bridewell Royal Hospital was in it's own words 'a school, hospital and prison established as a place of correction, reformation and employment of idle and vagrant poor"
http://www.londonlives.org/static/Bridewell.jsp
Some records of the institute still exist and are held at a number or places see below.
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/nra/searches/subjectView.asp?ID=O26776
They may possibly provide evidence as to his parents.
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Hello again Pacemaker
I found this interesting page:
http://genforum.genealogy.com/cecil/messages/949.html
This suggests most of the work done on the family was by a professional researcher Charles A. Isetts, Ph.D. 25 years ago.
It's interesting that he does not link Charles to these aristocratic lines, it was added on later, almost certainly very spuriously on shaky IGI 'guess work'. The ladys letter at the bottom (dated 2000) totally dismisses it, and I tend to agree, looks like bunkum to me, as seen above Charles was bought up in an approved school for poor vagrant children. Chances of him being related to aristocracy that near, are fantastically small. It's an extraordinary claim, which would require extraordinary evidence to substantiate it and there appears to be none at all.
I did also notice a couple of small errors in Mr Isetts own research. He states that St Dunstan's Stepney was a favoured church for the Huguenots. This is not true. They had no particular favour for it, it just happened to be the parish church for Bethnal Green (before 1743) and Spitalfields (before 1729) where a great deal of East London's Huguenots lived, especially those in the Silk Trade. It had no greater significance for them besides being their parish church, and none at all for the many Huguenots living outside the parish in other parts of London.
He also states that the couple had seven children. They in fact had ten:
Charles Daniel Cecil baptised 18 May 1740 St Jeans Huguenot Chapel, Spitalfields
Judith Cecil baptised 23 Aug 1741 St Leonard Shoreditch
Charles Cecil baptised 17 Jul 1743 St Leonard Shoreditch
Henry Cecil baptised 26 May 1745 St Leonard Shoreditch
Sarah Cecil baptised 17 June 1747 St Matthews Bethnal Green
George Cecil baptised 6 June 1750 St Matthews Bethnal Green
William Cecil baptised 8 July 1752 St Matthews Bethnal Green
Thomas Cecil baptised 17 April 1754 St Matthews Bethnal Green
Daniel Cecil baptised 20 Aug 1756 St Matthews Bethnal Green
Samuel Cecil baptised 14 Jan 1761 St Matthews Bethnal Green
This is important because most family pedigrees, including Mr Issetts, seem to be traced foward through first son Charles Daniel, who was baptised in the French Chapel on St John Street, (the same street Charles had his business premesis on, which straddled the Spitalfields/Bethnal Green border), but this is incorrect too, Charles Daniel died a month old and was buried at St Dunstans Stepney:
"Charles Daniel Cecil, son of Charles Cecil, weaver of Bethnal Green buried 10 June 1740."
So the decendants should in fact be tracing their lines through his brother Charles baptised 1743 at Shoreditch, (who later married Elizabeth Archer).
William Cecil, also died as a child and was buried 16 May 1753 St Matthew, Bethnal Green.
Not a single tree on Ancestry has these detail correct, so displays how very cautious to be accepting them on the basis they all agree. I'd personally discount any ancestors further back than Charles and try and get hold of his pupil records at the Bridewell, and with luck, trace this family back further through these.
Regards
Richard
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It seems I opened a can of worms when I started this thread.
As a matter of interest, I continued the Cecil line and found a Welsh line going back to beyond 100 BC.
I'm sure my original thoughts were correct, that this illustrious line could not be mine.
I must now end my tree at Charles 1718 until some other evidence turns up.
Thank you all for the interesting points made.
W.Jough.
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It is probable that Charles Cecil would have had some connections, as apprenticeships at the Bridewell Hospital were much sought after and on completion the apprentice was given enough money to start his own business (Locks gift) and given the Freedom of the City of London. It also would not have been unusual for the Cecil's to have lived in Westminster as that area had it's fair share of slum dwellings in the 17th/18th Century, the area also boasted the only free hospital for the poor in London which was situated at Petty France close to what is now the passport office, so even if the family lived in Spitalfields at that time they may still have been born in Westminster hospital which is only about two miles from the City of London.
Charles would have not been a poverty stricken labourer but a Master Weaver who probably employed several weavers including the family of Judith Raby who as Huguenots were not allowed to be master weavers but were officially designated the title of 'Stranger,.
It was not until many years later that the weaving industry was destroyed by introduction of machinery which put thousands of these erstwhile artisans onto the scrap heap where they were forced to take on menial work as dock labourers or bootmakers . . . . That is the period in which Bethnal Green became infamous for it's poverty and social deprivation.
I descend from Charles Son, George, who was a mater weaver and his son William who became a publican and at one time managed the Eagle in City Road, made famous in the nursery rhyme 'Pop goe's the Weasel'. Followed by his son George and then yet another George who were both labourers. His daughter Mary-Ann Cecil was my Great Grandmother.
Most of their descendents ended up working in the docks but my generation have done much better thanks to the values inculcated into us by our ancestors.
I believe it is quite possible somewhere in history that we descend from the aristocratic Cecil's but it really doesn't matter as they were a devious nasty family. More interesting is a look at the Old Bailey records for that period (1600s/1700s) where we find Henry Cecil, John Cecil as regular defendants for petty thieving, and then there is Richard Cecil hanged when he was only twenty for burglary.
An interesting family, and there are thousands of their descendants scattered all over the world.
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The Cecils of Bethnal Green and Spittalfields cropped up in last nights "Who Do You Think You Are". Silk Weaver Daniel Cecil of Elder Street, Spittalfields whose will pr. 22 Jul 1837 was an ancestor of Len Goodman.
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I also watched the programme and noted the probability of Len Goodmans' relatives being the descendents of Charles Cecil and Judith Madelaine Raby
Pacemaker
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Hi wjough,
In trying to track our lines from here in the States back to the UK Cecils, we also see a lot of "imaginative" pedigrees on the IGI and elsewhere. So I do agree with the cautions that dawnsh provided.
While we tend to concentrate on the Wales, or nearby, Cecil branches; we still have no real documented information on which branch of the Cecils our original ancestors came from. As such, your Bethnal Green or Westminster branch remains a possibility.
In the absence of known paper records, we have tried using DNA testing. One descendant of Thomas Cecil, Earl of Exeter and son of William Cecil, Lord Burghley, did agree to test for us. He matched us quite well. This does not necessarily mean that we are direct descendents of the well-known Burghley, but it does mean that we do both have a common male ancestor. So, sometimes it is possible to determine family connections when the paper trail has some major gaps.
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New info available for Charles Cecil 1717ish under:
London, England, Freedom of the City Admission Papers, 1681-1925
Looks for Cherks Cecil
It says that Charles Cecil's father was Charles Cecil & the parish which he was from was St John The Evangelist, that only opened 1728 I think, so a trip to look at St Margaret's baptisms is my next port of call.
Moderator comment: edited for content
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Good find gothitjulie, and it does open up the possibility he may indeed have been the son of Charles Cecil and Elizabeth Lumley after all.
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Good find gothitjulie, and it does open up the possibility he may indeed have been the son of Charles Cecil and Elizabeth Lumley after all.
Maybe so, but I still want it written in triplicate in blood before it gets onto my tree.
I still have a later link that I can't tied up properly so I'm still not certain of my own ancestry along the Cecil lines before I even get back to anywhere near Charles. The problem I have is with a Sarah Ann Cecil, I have her death in 1899 with an age of 51 (so around 1848 for birth), I have her marriage to a Norris in 1866 which states she is a spinster & that her father was John Cecil, a weaver, but I can't find her on census & can't find her baptism. I'm not too happy to say the least & am trawling thousands of pages for these items. I do have the baptisms of her children so know they were living on the edge of the Nichol at that time in various addresses, perhaps that's why the records are hiding from me ::)
More trips to LMA & Westminster archives will ensue methinks before I solve this.
As a side note, the St Matthew Bethnal Green baptism entries from 1843 that are missing on ancestry, I have images taken from the films at LMA of all the Cecil entries from the missing period if anyone should need them, the entries are:
18 Jun 1843 Louisa Cecil, dau of Thomas & Ester, Manchester Street, Weaver. Born 21 May 1843.
14 Jan 1844 James John Cecil, son of James & Sarah Susannah, White Street, Weaver. Born 18 Dec 1843.
6 Oct 1846 Sarah Caroline _ Cecil, dau of James & Sarah, Tent Street, Weaver. Born 10 Sep 1846.
13 Jan 1847 Elizabeth Cecil, dau of Samuel & Elizabeth, Wilmot Street, Weaver. Born 18 Dec 1846.
29 Oct 1848 Samuel Cecil, son of George & Elizabeth, St Andrew's Street, Weaver. Born 20 Sep 1848.
26 Nov 1848 William Cecil, son of William & Mary Cecil, Andrew Street, Weaver. Born 4 Nov 1848.
26 Jan 1851 Thomas Edward Cecil, son of James & Sarah Susannah, Tent Street, Fireman (note James's change of trade). Born 2 Jan 1851.
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St Margaret's, Westminster
20 February 1716/17 Charles Cecil S. of Charles by Eliz. born 2 Feb 1716/17
I have images of the entry in the parish records if anyone wants them.
I'm reasonably happy that's the correct Charles Cecil since we now have the other information on him being from the parish of St John The Evangelist, Westminster. Next to go through the marriages to make sure of his mother's surname.
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Again well done gothitjulie. Certainly I have found 14 is a very usual age for an apprenticeship, so that fits well too. I agree almost certainly him.
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awesome I posted a querie re the Bridewell and Charles cecil and a google seasrch bought me back here
going back over the posts
a Henry Cecil son of Charles Cecil weaver was also granted freedom of the city in 1739 so is to be presumed a brother of Charles who had a son named Henry
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I had seen about 4 Trees on Ancestry.com with Elizabeth Lumley and Charles Cecil as parents of out c1718 Charles Cecil, who were they?
FamilytreeDNA has a sale on testing up until 31 December
A good time for any male Cecils to test YDNA
I think we are all too far removed from Charles Cecil to show up on the Family Finder tests, but if any of you have actually done a Family Finder test PM me so we can compare notes
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Thanks GothitJulie
managed to place all of those baptism except William son of Samuel and Elizabeth
there was a Samuel married Elizabeth Jones in 1846, but I am not sure which Samuel Cecil he is.
The Thomas Edward Cecil died the same qtr he was born in, not on the 1851 census father a labourer, at (2 Tent Street)
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I had seen about 4 Trees on Ancestry.com with Elizabeth Lumley and Charles Cecil as parents of out c1718 Charles Cecil, who were they?
Ignore them until we can get a marriage nailed down in the right parish, too many parish records haven't made it online to be certain of anything around Westminster without trawling through the registers at the archives.
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Just registered and read your post re DNA testing of Thomas Cecil Earl of Exeter. My interest is aroused. I am descended from Charles Cecil and Judith Raby. I have a photo of GrGrGrandfather Daniel Cecil who is spitting image of William Lord Burghley, given the generational gap. My brother and nephew resemble the Thomas Cecil line.
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From my notes
American Wills proved in London 1611 - 1775
Elizabeth Hinton of Mddsx, widow of Thomas Hinton, with no children now living, dated 29 May 1763
Family pictures and Coat of Arms to my neice Sarah, wife of John Moore of Horsley Downs, (Southwark, Surrey) blacksmith
By the will of my mother Elizabeth Roulland, I am entitled to assign her estate.
Bequests to
Mrs Jane Raby, wife of Daniel Raby 30 pounds
Jane Raby daughter of Daniel Raby jr. 10 Pounds
Mrs Catherine Elizabeth Quinton 30 pounds
Daniel son of Charles Cecil 10 pounds
My acquaintance Mrs Mary Pesey widow, of Kensington 20 pounds
The residue of my estate and my mothers to go to the six children of my half brother Peter Francis de Prefontaine i.e the said Sarah Moore, Elizabeth wife of Philip Trevis, John, Mary, Peter Francis and Anne de Prefontaine of Philadelphia.
My exec. Mr Francis Duroure of Throgmorton Street, London
Witnesses Marianna Chauvin and Margaret Alderton.
Proved 14 Dec 1775 (PRO11/1014/473)
The will seems to mention 50 pounds a year annuity in names of Nicholas Bachelor, Daniel Raby and ffrancis Duroure.
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I would like a copy of your entry please. How do we do that, I'm new at this. I read the Indenture and am pleased we're getting somewhere. As Charles Cecil has signed the Indenture, is there any other papers signed by ancestral and probably forebears for comparison of handwriting. There is usually a family likeness - it may be the paternal likeness. Appreciate the physical efforts at your end as I'm another o/s in Oz. I just read down further and see you can attach an image, is that how it works?
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Hi
Just to let you know you can't attach images to this part of the forum.
May I suggest you use the personal message system to exchange email addresses and send information to each other via that method.
Dawn
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CecilyQ,
I read Dawns message re passing likenesses Charles Cecil 1718 silk weaver and his wife Judith Madelaine Raby are my ancestors. I would very much appreciate any photographs likenesses or documents you may have.
When I first came upon this branch of my family tree I looked at it with tongue in cheek, as it seemed too good to be true. Since I found that I was in the middle of an arguement, I backed off as I live too far from the Archives of proof . I have left the Cecil branch from Judith Raby back into history to the history books and keep a watching brief from the sidelines.
Your post ,though interested me as it dealt with the period of Charles and Daniel Cecil and the Hugeunot silk weavers.
Looking forward to hearing fro you
Pacemaker
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Hi pacemaker
You need to send your e-mail to Cecily through a PM (personal message)if you leave it here you are open to spamming - see reply 4 here. ;D
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,123033.msg375038.html#msg375038
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Groom,
Thanks for the reminder, senior moment... Steer me to PMs
Pacemaker
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Groom,
Thanks for the reminder, senior moment... Steer me to PMs
Pacemaker
To PM someone just click on the scroll under their name. ;) ;) ;)
Jan
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wjough found my tree on Ancestry and kindly directed me to this thread. This is my first ever post on Rootschat.
Charles Cecil and Judith Raby are my five times great grandparents. I am descended through their son Daniel Cecil (1756-1837), Daniel's son John Cecil (1797-1866), and John's daughter Susannah Cecil (1824-1891). My Cecil line on Ancestry stops with Charles.
I am delighted to have found you and excited by these new leads. The Bridewell link has really got my attention! :)
I have been researching for many years and hope that I can contribute.
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Hi EuroFlyer
Welcome to Rootschat :D
Happy hunting
Dawn
(co-moderator for London & Middlesex)
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Hi EuroFlyer,
Stay contented with Charles and Judith born 1717 and 1718, to follow Ancestry beyond that will lead you into a quagmire. My branch from Charles comes through their son Thomas Cecil 1754 and Sarah.
Derek (Pacemaker)
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Thanks Dawn and Derek.
I have been researching for so long that I am very content with Charles and Judith!
I have been putting together a timeline for Charles and I find his early years rather moving. When he was age 13 he was given an apprenticeship by the Bridewell Royal Hospital. After about eight years training as a silk weaver under Mr Phillips, when he was 21, Charles married Judith and, in the same year, was given the Freedom of the City and was “set-up for himself in his said trade, in his own house, next door but one to the Golden Ball in St John Street, Spittle Fields”. The next year, 1740, on the 17th May, he baptised his first baby; a son that he named Charles Daniel (Daniel, as you know, being the name of Judith's father).
In the minutes of the Bridewell Royal Hospital, Court-of-Governors meeting, of 5th June 1740, it says that two of the governors had visited Charles and found him to be “a diligent and sober man” and, as a result, they awarded him a “Lock’s Gift” of £10. Five days after that, on the 10th June, he buried his baby son.
In his long life, he saw the houses on London bridge demolished (when he was 40), the medieval walls of London demolished (when he was 49) and, two years before he died, the first aerial voyage from English soil took place only a stones-throw from where he lived in Bethnal Green. On the 15th February 1784, Vincenzo Lunardi took-off in a balloon from the Artillery Ground in Finsbury. It was the sensation of the age.
And most of us on this thread are related to Charles and Judith. What more can anyone ask!
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Thank you EuroFlyer, a man after my own heart. Throughout my whole research with my tree, I have looked for and sometimes found those little crumbs of enlightenment into the lives of the people we add to our tree. In the census for trade, we read Ag Lab, and if not careful we enter that fact without a moments thought as to the crippling labour involved, the need for still more income to keep the ever growing family, without medical aid and regular infant deaths. In my own case the families had to sit round every spare minute of the day plaiting straw for the hat industry in Luton and Dunstable. This made life a little more comfortable.
Charles and Judith would have been very aware, if uneducated, with the causes of infant mortality and I would hope they both lived through their grief to a better place.
Did you see the Len Goodman programme on "Who do you think you are" with the explanation as to how it was necessary to be a freeman of the city to carry out silk weaving? I found the programme expectantly exiting the closer they got to Charles Cecil, knowing that this was one person from my tree.
Keep researching for the personal stuff and bring the ancestors alive. Every person had a story.
Derek (Pacemaker)
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Well said Pacemaker!
Forgot to say... I did watch the Len Goodman episode of WDYTYA. I was contacted by a BBC researcher about a year ago. She asked a few esoteric questions about the Cecil tree. I explained what I knew and heard no more until I watched the program and found out what it was about. My tree splits away from Len Goodman's at John Cecil. My great, great grandmother was Susannah Cecil (1824-1891) and Len Goodman's was Susannah's sister Sarah (1820-1880).
Incidentally, have you ever seen the BBC comedy series "Rev"? BBC 1 at 9:00pm on Thursdays. It is filmed in St. Leonard's, Shoreditch, where Charles and Judith had three of their children baptised: Judith (1741), Charles(1743) and Henry(1745).
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Good to meet you distant cousins
the Len Goodman episode should be shown on Foxtel in Australia soon as they have that series on, just watched JK Rowling, so cant be long to wait.
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I stumbled accross this thread a few weeks back and found it very, very, useful. My thanks to all contributors.
I am descended from Charles Cecil, son of Charles Cecil and Elizabeth Archer. I found this out several years ago and at the time was given a lot of information about the Cecil tree from various Cousins. I too was told we were descended from Charles Daniel Cecil.
I have been overhauling my tree following it's transfer to a new software package and my realisation that my source notes were in a complete mess. I've a long way to go, having only reached surnames beginning with the letter "C"! The comments here have helped make sure that my tree is accurate; in fact I've removed it from Ancestry, ashamed that I had helped perpetrate errors - a sin I find frustrating in others to say the least.
If anyone has time I would be interested in comments on the following:
1. There was a William Cecil baptised son of William Cecil (weaver) and Judith 8 March 1748/49 Bethnal Green, St Matthew. I have found no other reference to a William & Judith Cecil. I wondered if it was possible that the father's name of William was a clerical error, and it was really Charles? The birth would sit comfortably between Sarah and George. We will never know, but I would be interested to hear of any other references to a William & Judith Cecil. As a footnote, there was a William Cecil buried at Bethnal Green, St Matthews, on 11 Apr 1749, quite possibly the same child.
2. Sarah Cecil, daughter of Charles & Judith, appears in at least 100 tress on Ancestry as baptised 17 Jun 1747, but not one has any further information. What happened to Sarah? I wondered if she died young and found a possible burial on 11 July 1751 in Bethnal Green, St Matthew. At first glance the surname appears to be Croit but I'm convinced the second letter is an "E" making the name CE???. Anyone think the same? I found no other evidence of a Croit family in the area.
3. Moving down a generation to Charles Cecil and Elizabeth Archer, I was originally told by various Cousins that they had three children:
Charles bapt Stepney 13 Aug 1776 (who allegedly married Martha Harrison)
John bapt Bethnal Green 25 Dec 1770
Elizabeth bapt Bethnal Green 29 Mar 1774
However, I now think they had at least 2 others:
Elizabeth, bapt Stepney 26 May 1765 recorded as "Thistle", and buried Stepney 29 May 1765 "Cecil"
Charles, bapt Stepney 21 Feb 1768 recorded as "Thissel"
I haven't found any other evidence of a Thistle family in the area at the time.
It would be unusual to have the 2nd & 3rd child both living and named Charles, so I went looking. On 23 Nov 1767 a Charles Sissel was buried at Stepney, St Dunstans. From the information in the Day Book it looks certain that he was under the Age of 2.
So I now think the Charles Cecil who married Martha Harrison on 9 April 1788 was actually the Charles who was baptised in 1768 and not the one baptised in 1766 as I was previously told and as appears on many trees in Ancestry.
So there appears to have been a repetition of attributing data to the wrong Charles Cecil in two generations! Has anyone else reached the same conclusion?
If anyone reading this is descended from Charles Cecil & Martha Harrison, I have established what happened to Martha and have her death certificate from 1846. Please PM me for details.
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I am descended from Charles Cecil and Judith Raby too and I thought for a long time that Charles Cecil and Elizabeth Lumley were Charles' parents mainly because Charles indentures show him as having been born in the parish of St. John the Evangelist Westminster. Further research has revealed that the Charles Cecil married to Elizabeth Lumley was an Anglican cleric DD at Christ Church Oxford - one of the chaplains ordinary to the king and Rector of Hatfield. Then in Feb. 1732 he was consecrated Bishop of Bristol and transferred to be Bishop of Bangor in 1734. He died in 1737. That being so I think we can safely rule out the connection as the indentures would surely have referred to Charles as Rector of Hatfield or given him the title Rev. but there are still a lot of trees around connecting these 2 families.
If you put up Charles Cecil & Judith Raby on Google search it will take you to Judith's profile on Wikitree, if you then click on Charles you will be able to view the image of his indentures with his fathers name.
I still don't know who 'my' Charles Cecil's father was, only that his name was also Charles Cecil!
Can anyone add to this?
'Chrimbold'
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Hello Troops,
just adding another angle to the Cecil questions.
I have just had a DNA test done under the World Families under the Gilbert Banner.
It makes a 98% match to Sir Thomas Cecil - 1st Earl of Exeter.
A google search shows that he had 2 successful marriages with a heep of children by the first wife.
Does anyone have any clues on any possible illegitimate children?
Chhers
Jack Gee
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That's damned fine Jack
What was the world Families test?
What is your Cecil connection?
I have done Autosomal tests with FamilytreeDNA and AncestryDNA
and uploaded data to Gedmatch.com Kit number for any who have uploaded any DNA to Gedmatch.com is F170975
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To Lubricated:
Am new to RootsChat & not sure how to "find" you to reply (if you are still on this forum) to a post you made ages ago re Charles & Martha. I too am a descendant and would be interested in the death certificate details you have for Martha Harrison.
At the time you also queried Sarah? Did you find anything? It does seem possible that she died as a baby, but someone does have a Sarah Cecil born 1747 as dying 1841 under her own name!
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To reply just hit Reply on thread...
Threads merged.
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Hi Prelli
I have not seen the death certificate but I firmly believe the Sarah Cecil who died in the last quarter of 1841, in her 90's, was the widow of Thomas Cecil who was one of the sons of Charles Cecil and Judhy Raby. Her maiden name was Waterlow, and she and Thomas were married 8 Jan 1775 at St Dunstan, Stepney.
Lubricated
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CECIL, SARAH age 91 Order
GRO Reference: 1841 D Quarter in BETHNAL GREEN Volume 02 Page 8 Order
1841 England Census Name: Sarah Cecil Age: 90 Estimated Birth Year: abt 1751 Gender: Female Where born: Middlesex, England Civil Parish: Bethnal Green Hundred: Ossulstone (Tower Division) County/Island: Middlesex Country: England Street address: Occupation: . Registration district: Bethnal Green Sub registration district: Church Neighbors: View others on page Household Members: Name Age Sarah Cecil 90 Silk Weaver George Godfrey 35 Elizabeth Godfrey 45 James Broad 13 John Broad 6 Thomas Cecil aged 65 is in same house, next rooms.
The GRO has a trial where a pdf copy can be bought for i think 6 pounds a saving on the certificate, but the only one i sent for was not good enough for them to provide a PDF of.
Maybe one of the Godfreys is the informant and maybe it will say she was a widow of Thomas. but looks like that is her