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General => Armed Forces => World War One => Topic started by: KA on Tuesday 25 May 10 19:04 BST (UK)
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Is there a list of recipients of the Miltary Medal? Something that gives you a brief biography of why it was awarded.
I'm looking for S A Martin of the 11th Essex Regiment. He died 1917 in France.
Can anybody point me in the right direction please.
Regards
KA
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He will be (usually!) listed in London gazette but they very rarely have citations.
Local papers of the time or his unit war diary are the best bet just depends on how busy it was when it was awarded as to it getting a mention.As a rule ciations in the Gazette are usually about 3 months after the event.
Ady :)
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My Dad, Uncle and other WW1 veterans used to say that the MM was so common it was brought to the frontline with the rations.
Don't want to put you off, but there were a very large number awarded.
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KA,
Try this Link
http://www.london-gazette.co.uk
If he was awarded the MM he would have been "Gazetted" in the London Gazette, you should be able to view it on line however, if he was anything less than an Officer it wont tell you how and why he got it.
If not you could always try the Military Medal Society, they have access to some of the citations but not all.
David
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[quote author=DavidGreenall110 link=topic=458254.msg3201858#msg3201858
If not you could always try the Military Medal Society, they have access to some of the citations but not all.
Have not heard of this or find on Google, can you expand?
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You're not wrong, there used to be one, I remember looking at their website when I was trying to find out how my GGrandad got his.
There is this one;
http://www.omrs.org.uk/
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Alternatively, you could try the Battalion War Diary at the National Archives or Local Newspapaers around that date.
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From my records:
687304 Bomaardier John HOLLAND
And
687374 L/Bombardier Frank DARKE
C/276 Battery R.F.A.
Date of recommendation: 13/05/18
Award recommended: Military Medal
“For gallantry and devotion to duty near GORRE on 9th April 1918 during the enemy attack.
About 4.15 a.m. and throughout the day the enemy put down a very heavy barrage of shells of all calibres on the battery position near the TUNNING FORK, two guns being put out of action by direct hits and finally the battery position came under heavy rifle fire from the enemy only 1000 yards away on the left flank.
These N.C.O’s although severely shaken and suffering from concussion due to being blown out of the trench by a shell, remained with their gun and kept it in action throughout the day.
Not recommended for reward in the King’s Birthday honours Gazette.”
I don't believe those came "up with the rations"!
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To say they came up with the rations does not decry individual acts of heroism but between the award being initiated ion 25 March 1916 and the end of WW1 115,600 MMs were awarded during the First World War
So one can see how the expression arose
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With close to 5 million soldiers serving in the British Army in WW1, 115000 represents a very small percentage. MMs were hard won. Some, who presumably did not receive the reward may have felt that they "came up with the rations"; they did not!
(http://i284.photobucket.com/albums/ll22/mabbott1/IMG_2847-1.jpg)
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There was a strong element of randomness about the awards, as I know of at least one case where 2 signallers were repairing a damaged line under fire, on opposite sides of the same pole, one got the MM, the other didn't.Anyway, good luck to them all, if they survived they often had 40+ years of nightmares reliving the experiences they couldn't bring themselves to talk about.
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I don't disagree with your comment about the randomness; who witnesssed the act and did they survive to report it.
I have several examples of awards to men in the RE and RFA who received them for the same act of heroism, the only difference being a change in the name for each recommendation.
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115000 represents a very small percentage.
As I say, I am not decrying the individual acts of heroism. But I am trying to get into perspective for readers here how "common" the MM was, and why it was referred to as it was.
If I accepted your figure of 5 million who served, that would have meant the 1 in every 43 men got the MM.
But it was not instituted till half way through the war, and on top of that only men in the front line could generally have expected to get it. So in front line soldiers, that is among those who were expecting rations to be sent up, perhaps 1 in 25 would get the MM before the end of the war.
4,100 DSMs were issued during World War I, and that is a rarer decoration
You are unfortunately construing the maths as an attack on the medal recipients, it is not.
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I am not "construing the maths as an attack on the medal recipients". I am simply pointing out that no matter how "common" the award was, it was always hard won. The medal awarded to " S A Martin of the 11th Essex Regiment" will have been well deserved and like many MM recipients he remains in France to this day.
According to "The Great War Forum", some 7,165,280 British Army servicemen were available for deployment during WW1. I simply do not know how many RN sailors were involved so I cant comment on the ratio of awards; numerically, the DSM is scarcer and does have the distinct advantage that the citations were publishedin the LG.
If you look at some DCM citations, they could be said to "have come up with the rations". MMs were always awarded for acts of gallantry.
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At the heart of it all, then, as now, a quota system existed for medals
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/politics/article7009680.ece
The system could not operate without such quotas.
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These quotas, and in my opinion quotas in any other walk of life e.g. education, should be abolished forthwith. This does indeed give credence to what my father told me about the MM coming up with the rations. A good and current place to start would be with Afghanistan!
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Quotas were indeed used in WW1 when deciding the number of medals to be issued to each individual Division, Brigade and unit. I do not however see how this supports the contention that they came up with the rations.
I have records that show individuals being recommended for gallantry awards which were refused at Brigade or Divisional level as the CO "whilst admiring the pluck shown by private..." believed the individual concerned was simply doing his duty. Those that were awarded gallantry medals had clearly acted in a manner over and above what was expected.
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My point is that to limit any award for merit by quota diminishes the value of the award in the eyes of potential recipients, and could well have led to the belief they come up with the rations.
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In reply to KA's original question which started this string:
:)
here is the info that I have on S A Martin. I'm aiming to publish a small book on Essex R recipients of the MM
Burrows = the regimental history, Essex Units in the War, by J W Burrows
Ian
14719 Cpl Sydney Arthur Martin, 11th Bn
MM LG 18 June 1917 p6022
Sgt. Born Castle Hedingham, lived Little Yeldham, enlisted Colchester. Died of wounds 15 September 1917
MM perhaps for raid on the Lozenge, 24 March 1917: “I can see now Lance-Corporal Martin of, I think, C Company, looking over our parapet with a Lewis gun ready to stop them as if nothing would make him budge and taking no notice of the shelling” ( Burrows, volume 6, p319).
1914-15 Star trio.
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Without wishing to get involved in taking sides so to speak what Redroger's original post tells us is that that was an opinion of the Military Medal held by certain soldiers who were there at the time and as such is a valuable source. Whether we accept their view is another matter but we were not there and the fact remains that, rightly or wrongly, some soldiers held that view. It is worth noting for the record. I speak as someone with an ancestor who won the MM.
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Just to go back to KA's original posting, there may have been no acts of bravery involved.
My gf's cousin was awarded the MM in the New Year's Honours list of 1918. Very disappointing. The award did appear in the London Gazette.
Oops, wrong medal. The cousin was awarded the Military Cross.
Justin
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Thanks for that input Imber.
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Justin,
A gallantry award that apears in a "Birthday Gazette" originally had a recommendation; sadly most have not survived.
Mark
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Of the two recipients of gallantry medals in my tree and my wifes, I have only seen citations for the DCM.
My wife's grandfather received MM , DCM and Belgian Croix de guerre, and my own gt uncle the DCM. Both have citations for the DCM , there are none for the other two medals
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, I have only seen citations for the DCM.
Going back to the earlier points in this thread, there were 4,100 DCMs awarded and 115,600 MMs. so its is not surprising that citations were not given for MMs
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I believe that some of the commendations for the Cambridgeshire Regiment recipients have been published.
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All awards originally had citations. Most have simply not survived.
For example, this is a citation for a Mention in Despatches:
Lieut. (Temp Major) Harry LEECH
1/8th Bttn. King’s Liverpool Regt.(T.F.)
Date of recommendation: 12/08/16
Award recommended: Mention in Despatches
"For coolness and gallantry under fire on the 2 August 1916, during a fairly heavy bombardment on the support trenches in front of TRONES WOOD he deliberately walked up and down the trenches to encourage the men.
Also on the day of the attack on GUILLEMONT by this battalion on the 8th August, 1916 he was of the greatest service to me, walking up and down the advanced and support trenches under fire most of the time and bringing in information as to the situation from stragglers of various regiments.”
This for a Military Medal:-
1893 Lance Corporal Frederick LUNDBERG
1/8th Bttn. King’s Liverpool Regt.(T.F.)
Date of recommendation: 24/08/16
Award recommended: Military Medal
"For gallantry and devotion to duty during the attack on GUILLEMONT but this Battalion on the 8th August 1916, when in charge of Signal Station in SUNKEN ROAD. Although without cover and under considerable Artillery fire he kept communication open with Brigade and constantly repaired lines both forward to Battalion Headquaters and back to Brigade Headquaters under heavy artillery fire.”
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Mark,
Thanks for that bit of advice on gallantry. I might investigate the war diaries to see if anything was mentioned. Is that likely?
Justin
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Justin,
You may be lucky. Some war diaries are excellent and do contain information on individuals who received awards.
I am interested in the RE units of the 55th West Lancashire Division. The diary for 419 Field Company is very detailed whilst that of the 55th Divisional Signal Company has little information on the men themselves. For example it records " four men awarded the Military Medal." It fails to elaborate!
Local newspapers can also be an excellent source of info. It is always worth having a look in all the papers that were published in a particular area as they often contain articles on local men who were wounded, killed or decoratred.
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Except in exceptional circumstances war diaries reflect the ethos of the period, and record very little about "Other ranks"
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This ancestor was an officer (temp. Capt.) and adjutant of 1/8 Middlesex.
Justin
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Justin,
One of an adjutant's jobs was to write up the war diary; you may be in luck!
If I were you, I'd try and obtain a copy of the Battalion's War Diary. I have several to 55th Div units which were photographed for me and sent on disc.
PM me if you want to have the name of the chap who does this for me.
Regards
Mark
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Was this the usual practise? I ask because in the case of my father's old regiment (Cambridgeshires WW1) the war diary I have referred to was written by the co Lt.col. MC Clayton.
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As far as I am aware (I may be wrong!), the Adjutant compiled the WD, the CO signed it off.
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Not in the case of the Cambridgeshires, so I wonder whether there was a laid down practise. Seems strange if there was no such practise.
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I would tend to agree with Mark.
The NA research guide indicates that the dairy was kept by 'an appointed junior officer'
http://www.rootschat.com/links/08x9/
The sections of the WD for the 2/Middlesex in my possession (Dec. 1915 to Jun. 1916) were usually stamped at the end of the month 'Orderly Room - 2nd Battalion Middlesex' and signed by the commanding officer - generally the Lt. Col., but occassionally a Major.
I would have thought that a battalion's commanding officer had more pressing things to do than keep the daily diary.
Justin
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Probably so, but the identification of M.C.Clayton is 100% positive for the following reasons. I have a reference he wrote for my father in 1919 and the hand writing is the same. Both the reference and the War diary bear the same signature. By the way, his handwriting was terrible, a poor advert for Wisbech Grammar School.
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Have you seen how many men fought in WW1 just from Britain alone
with number its not surprising there were so many awarded Gallentry Medals
awarded, it means all those men did something extra extra special,
it dismisses the heros they were to describe a Gallentry Medal as common
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Please also bear in mind that a significant number of recipients of the Military Medal were members of the RAMC, who entered the field of battle unarmed to retrieve the wounded.
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Well said
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I am new to this forum, and read with interest about the Military Medal comments made on this topic. My Granfather was awarded this medal, and I have tried numerous times to find out if there was a citation for it. I do remember him telling me what he did to be honoured with the medal, which is still cherished by all the family. My Grandad would get very upset when he told the tale, and always ended up with him in tears. I do have his medal, medal card index, and the mention in the "London Gazette". Can anybody kindly point me to a website where I might find out more about his citation? Most websites charge fee's for even a basic snippet of information, so I am wary of paying upfront for something which might not exist. My Grandad was in the Royal Northumberland Fusiliers; 11th Battalion, and was awarded the medal in 1916. Thanks in anticipation.
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Well said
Thank you.
I have found the suggestion in earlier posts that the MM was "sent up the line with the rations" highly offensive.
My great uncle was in fact a pacifist, but joined up in 1914, having told the recruiting officer that he did not wish to serve in a regiment where he would be expected to kill anyone. He was enlisted in the RAMC.
He won the MM in 1916 for entering no-man's land six times in one afternoon to bring the wounded to safety. On an earlier occasion he had had the horses shot out from in front of him whilst driving a field ambulance over the Menin crossroads.
He died in 1945, the cause of death being directly attributed to wounds and injuries he had received in the First World War, and was buried with full military honours.
To suggest that his MM was sent "up the line" is as offensive as suggesting that the Lancashire's "Six VCs before breakfast" was a token award.
Cati
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Hi Cati; The story my Grandad told me was similar. He entered no-mans land under heavy gun fire, picked up his wounded C/O, and crawled back to the trenches with him on his back. IF I ever find the citation, it should in theory match my Grandads vivid account. Regards Alan
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Think citations do not always exist (or should that say survive)
A DSM will apparently always have one though
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Here's the citation for the MM to my grandfather, Thomas Nulty
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Hi Stephen, did your family already have the citation, or did you research and find it on-line?? Cheers Alan ???
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Hi SuperSinky1956, Just to add a bit of input to your thread, I have been trying to research the MM awarded to my wife's Grandfather while he was serving with the Machine Gun Corps, I have been told by a person who is "Well Informed" On matters regarding the Battalion he served with in the MGC that no MM citations were put in the London Gazette although paper records of the citation were kept at Brigade (or Divisional) headquarters BUT once the men were home after the war most paperwork classed as non essential was destroyed.
If however the person who was responsible for putting entries into the war diary actually wrote the reason for an award being given then you could still find out.
I have found that his award was written in the war diary and is at the National Archives in Kew and am waiting for an estimate for a copy of the Date in Question.
What I am trying to say is that if you know or can find out if there is a war diary it could well be recorded in it.
Hope that all makes sense,
Frank.
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Alan
I came across the citation, and also that for his the Bar to his MM, held within private papers at Liverpool Museum.
The first thing to note is (as Frank says), MM citations were not published in the LG.
There is occasionally reference to them in the War Diary (my grandfather's weren't), but in my 15 years of research I have always found that the best place to find the reason for an MM award is the local newspaper, as family would often go along and provide details. This would then be published, often with a picture of the recipient.
Here is an example of a War Diary entry, which reads "Notification was received that Sgts Gulliver & Flanders(?) had been awarded the Military Medal." This is 11th Bn, King's (Liverpool) Regiment and is dated 3rd September 1916
No details of what for or when !!
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Thanks for your input Frank and Stephen, its much appreciated. Looks more likely that I need to visit Kew to see what I can find out. From Northumberland I can't do it in a day, so more expense I suppose. A friend of mine went to Kew last month to find more info about an Uncle of his that died in the Great War, and he didn't find out much at all. He spent 3 days in the capital and also visited other archives without sucess. In the meantime I can research local newspapers, and have a look through the Royal Northumberland Fusiliers archives at Alnwick Castle. Regards Alan
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Hi, it must be really great when you find citations etc, I only found out about my wife's Grandfather when we started family history and the MM Award just came out of the blue, it had never been mentioned by my wife's late Father as he was only a child when his Father died and even family members we did not know existed on her Grandfathers line new nothing what so ever about it, it came as a shock to everyone, no trace has ever been seen of the medal which is such a shame, I do know however via his service records that he declined the chance to have it awarded to him publicly and had it sent to him instead, Like so many others he probably thought of all the poor souls who did not return home.
Frank.
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Here are another few extracts from the same War Diary.
11/10/1916
As above. No casualties. A/Cpl No 12003 Roberts awarded Military Medal
30/05/1917
“A” Coy relieved “C” Coy. “B” Coy relieved “D” Coy. “A” Coy worked on CT in WANCOURT-GUEMAPPE area. “B” Coy carried trench boards. “C” Coy worked on TILLOY-WANCOURT road. “D” Coy rested. No casualties. (No 12205 Sgt F MUNNS & No 12374 Pte L McGUIGAN awarded Military Medal)
09/06/1917
All companies worked on new CT from ALBATROSS forward. WANCOURT area. No casualties. No 12390 Sgt F ANDERSON, 12872 Sgt F L NEWALL, 12876 T NUTTALL, 12461 Pte L BROWN 21241 Pte T BANCROFT awarded Military Medal. 6 OR’s reinforcements
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Hi, it looks likely that 41Batt MGC diary will be of the same format ::) could well be out of luck then, oh well, onwards and upwards as they say. ;)
Frank.
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Hi, it looks likely that 41Batt MGC diary will be of the same format ::) could well be out of luck then, oh well, onwards and upwards as they say. ;)
Frank.
However, once you have the date, the Battalion Diary/Regimental History might give you some idea of what was going on that day.
I'll repeat what's already been said about local newpapers: a local lad being awarded the MM was newsworthy.
Also: a lot of local archives and local/family history groups are undertaking a lot of research into WW1 at the moment in preparation for the centenary. It may be worthwhile you making enquiries.
Cati
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Hi, it looks likely that 41Batt MGC diary will be of the same format ::) could well be out of luck then, oh well, onwards and upwards as they say. ;)
Frank.
I'll repeat what's already been said about local newpapers: a local lad being awarded the MM was newsworthy.
Cati
On it as I type,
Regards,
Frank. ;)
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As a general rule, LG citations for the MM were published some three months after the date of the action for which they were awarded, though this could be longer at "busy" periods.
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Hi All
I am new to your forum and I have read the posts above and find a lot of assumptions and incorrect info in them.
My father was awarded the MM and also the bar (second award) in 1914 in the retreat from Mons he was Mentioned in Despatches, in July 1916 he was awarded the MM, backdated to 1914. He was then awarded the Bar to the medal in September 1916, he was a member of the RFA both times. As far as his 'Citation' goes, this was usually given to the recipient at the time the medal was given, copies were rarely kept (Kew Records Office) In my father's case the M.I.D is mentioned in Sir John French's book of Despatches, printed in 1919, which I, luckily have a copy, however, there is no record in the battery, Brigade or Battalion diaries of his awards.
My last avenue to find details of why he was issued the Bar is the Artillary Museum at Woolwich London who have two 27th Brigade Diaries for the period 1914 to 1917, there might just be a mention there.
And, the MM was never issued to Officers and only rarely to Warrant Officers, as implied by a post early in this thread.
The MM and rations comment should be taken like the rations, with a pinch of salt, if you read the M.I.D despatch of my father's he had rifle fire at 100 yards and MG fire at 200 yards whilst he and another Driver hauled the gun out of it's trench and got it back to the retreated lines in good order. The Battery Officer and other men had long retreated with the breech block some time before, so they really were issued for Bravery In the Field.
If anyone wants a copy of a Despatch during the Aug 1914 to Nov 1916 period, email me and I will gladly supply it, they make for interesting reading, just supply the approximate date and the name please. colfi1@bigpond.com
keep well all.
Col
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This has been an interesting discussion. :)
Just want to throw in first that I am in awe of the brave men named in the given examples above who were awarded the MM for their incredible courage. A medal for what they did and what they gave really isn't nearly enough.
I'm trying to find details of my great-grandfather's MM. I've seen the announcement in the Gazette and have been fruitlessly searching the British Newspaper Archive [http://www.britishnewspaperarchive.co.uk] for a mention in a local newspaper.
I have his medal card and the MM is not included there, so I'm at a loss. I don't know which battalion he was in, so going through the regimental diaries is obviously taking an age.
Can anyone please advise me? His name, should anyone reading this have an interest in the regiment, was Cpl George Charles Dwan of The Queen's (Royal West Surrey), Reg No G/5805. Gazetted 06-07-1917 (Issue 30172, Page 21).
The unusual name is often misspelled, which makes things even more fun. ;)
Kind thanks in advance,
Vicky
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Hi Vicky, I can fully sympathise with you regarding your search, my OH grandfather was awarded the MM while serving with the Machine Gun Corps, one of the problems is that the citations were never published for MM awards unlike the Military Cross.
However if you have his medal index card there will be a reference on it to the Medal Roll which could be searchable at the National Archives, this may well show his Military Medal and also the battalion in which he served, that would give you a little extra information.
I only know this because that is how I found the mention of "our" Military Medal as that was not mentioned on the Medal index card also.
Regards always,
Frank.
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Hi Vicky
Like you, my Father's MM, his first award of the MM, was mentioned in the Edinburgh gazette in 3 Oct 1916, not the London gazette, yet the London gazette of 27 Oct 1916 and the Kew Records Office had recorded an award of the MM. I always assumed the two mentions were for the one award.( the bar is missing from his MM) However, it was much, much later I found the first award (Edinburg gazette) was a backdated award to 1914, given at the retreat from Mons, this one was gazetted but not on the Medals records cards. His second award was at the Somme and gazetted in the London Gazette and is on the medal cards at Kew Records Office, The cards show a small 'mm' to one side of the medals awarded and there is a seperate set of cards for the MMs. Maybe he was a backdated award, who knows??
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Thanks, Frank. That must have been a nice surprise for you!
It could well be a backdated awarded, Col - thanks for that. I think I'll be trawling through the regiment's war diaries for some time yet!
I have requested a quotation from the National Archives, as the medal card shows the roll/page reference alongside the Victory and British medals. I'm not able to get to Kew to see for myself just yet, unfortunately.
Annoyingly, there's nothing listed on the medal card for "Theatre of War first served in" or "Date of entry therein", either.
You'd think the frequently misspelled name - Dwan - would be enough of a challenge for me, but no... ::)
What I do know for sure is that he lost a finger at some point and was a "Disciplinarian" in the RAF from January 1918. So I'm working on the theory that the loss of his finger might have been due to whatever action he earned his MM for, and that this injury meant a switch to a new role.
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Hi Vicky
His Regimental number should direct you straight to him, if you have the medals or an index card copy it's on there, also try the RAF diaries after April 1918 ( when the RAF was officially formed), it may have been a late war award. you can also try his battalion Musuem, (if they have one) most Regiments do, the museums keep a lot of the war diaries in their libraries. That is how I found the information that I needed. Good luck either way. and the librarians only ask for a donation not an arm and a leg fee. :)
Col
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Ah, I found his MM card. His name had been misspelled. ::)
Finally, it shows his battalion, so I'm really pleased about that. £3.36 well spent.
There is a Registered Paper and Schedule Number given, andI read that these probably relate to citation documents, but none seem to have been preserved. What a shame.
I have requested two quotations from the National Archives to digitise and make records available for download. One came back at £2.80, so that's not so bad. Just waiting on the other.
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Hi Vicky
I have the same problems with my Father's citation(s) He was a Driver in the RFA (Royal Field Artillary) Thankfully, their records were mostly stored out of London during WW2 so the blitz didn't burn them.
The Artillary Museum at Woolwich, London have the Battalion and Brigades diaries for 1914 to 1917, I am hoping to find some mention of his Citations in them when I visit London in June, hopefully the rain will be gone by then. I am in Tasmania Australia, so all my research has to be done at a distance.
Keep searching, you may get lucky.
Col
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Vicky
Whats the schedule number and gazette date it will narrow down the date of the action he recieved the MM for.
Ady
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Have a safe trip, Col!
Ady, the schedule number is 87785 and the Gazette date is 9-7-17.
Thanks for anything you can tell me!
Vicky
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Vicky
This gazette covers battles of Arras and Vimy Ridge date ranges Apr to may 1917 also include battle of Scarpe and Bullecourte schedule numbers 87000-90800 so is probably an April award.
Source :Great War medal collectors companion
Ady
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Hi, This is a thread which I am following avidly, The Military Medal awarded to my wife's Grandfather is not mentioned/Noted on his Medal Index Card, I notice that there is mention of a "MM Card" on this thread, was there then, a separate medal card for the Military Medal recipients or am I reading it all wrong? :-\
Regards always,
Frank.
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Hi Jess
Yes, you have it right, the standard war medals awarded are kept on one micro-fiche/card ( now, I believe, on the data base) and this card is marked with abreviations as to further awards, ie: the MM. My Fathers Micro-fiche had MM* in a small section to the right of the list of his normal WW1 medals awarded. I then went to the MM micro-fiche and confirmed his MM awards. There were just dates of the awards there. I am still searching Diaries for some idea as to why he was awarded the MM, no luck to date though.
Unlike a lot of MM awards, his were gazetted in the Edinburgh gazette of 3 Oct 1916 and 27 Oct 1916, and I could find no mention of them in any of the London Gazette.
He was in the RFA (Royal Field Artillary) and enlisted in Oxford in 1913.
Col
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Hi Frank,
Any luck?
Two medal cards. I purchased/downloaded both from the National Archives site.
The first, purchased several years ago now, lists Victory and British medals, but not the Military Medal. There's no mention of it. Nothing is given for "Theatre of War first served in" or "Date of entry therein" either, unfortunately.
The Military Medal is on a separate card and includes rank, corps, regimental number, date of Gazette, as well as "Registered Paper" and "Schedule Number", which I believe relates to citation documents that were not preserved, sadly.
P.S. Thanks, Ady! Someone said it was likely to be Arras. I've not been able to find his service records, sadly, but I did find another whose life I'm researching - on Ancestry. I'd love to have the same detail for George, though.
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Hi vicky, yes, I went on the National Archive site today and found the Military Medal card for William Ridsdal/Ridsdale, as you say there is a "Registered Paper" and "Schedule Number" given.
The "Registered Paper" is what looks to be 6B/121/856 and the "Schedule Number" is 245484, I will have to do a bit of digging to find out what they mean.
Regards always,
Frank.
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Frank
That schedule number just gets him into MM. Gazette number 63 dated 17th June 1919
It's a Western Front award for the October 1918 battles.
Howard Williamson is in process of writing a book specifically on the MM due for release in 2014 it MAY have a little bit more info although most citations went up in the Arnside Street fire.
Ady
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Hi Ady, many thanks for that, it is a great help.
According to what I have found out, the 41st Batt MGC in which he served were involved in the following engagements around that time:
28Th September - 2ND October 1918, The Battle of Ypres,
14Th October - 19Th October 1918, The Battle of Courtrai,
25Th October 1918, Ooteghem,
That definitely narrows it down for me, many thanks again and my best regards always.
Frank.
ADDED: The award was entered "Notified" in the war diary at Nederbrakel? on the 15Th November 1918 and taking into account that it probably took a couple of weeks to hit the diary I think I'm as close as possible to the date.
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Hi to all,
I am new to this very interesting site and have a request for those far more knowledgeable than I am! A distant relative of mine, Patrick Tobin (Regt No 2088)was killed in action 21/3/1918 at the Somme for which he was awarded the Military Medal. He served with the 7th Battalion Leinster Regt and I wish to find his citation if at all possible. I downloaded his medal card from the National Archives but it only gives scant details of his service. However the date he qualified is 17/12/1915 so not sure whether he was awarded then as opposed to when he was killed in 1918. Once I solve this part of the riddle then I may be able to establish which battle he was killed in? Hope there is help out there please?
Regards
Ali
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There are not normally citations surviving for MMs.
You could try looking at war diary as a longshot
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There are not normally citations surviving for MMs.
You could try looking at war diary as a longshot
Thanks for the advice. Is there a site where I could find these?
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The War diaries are in the National Archives at Kew. You can find if they have the appropriate diary by using the online catalogue.
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Many thanks for the advice Redroger. I obtained the War Diary but due to heavy casualties that day there is little detail. No mention of any ranks killed, only officers a few days later. Still looking .....!
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Be aware, the Kew Records office holds very few WW1 war diaries, most were retained by the Regiments (fortunately) the archived ones from WW1 were mostly destroyed in the WW2 Blitz. Kew Records are still trying to sort out a lot of the partially burnt paperwork. Try the Regiment's museum.
I had a similar case with my Father (RFA), he was given a Mention in Despatches at Mons, 1914 and the MM in 1916, yet I could find no mention of the MM apart from the medal cards held at Kew. I did find out that a lot of MM's, earlier than March 1916 (when the MM was first announced) were back dated ones given to some M.I.D recipients later in the war. This may account for the 1918 issue dated 1915. If this was the case then the M.I.D was withdrawn and wouldn't show on the Kew medals cards.
I eventually (luckily last year) found the war diaries at the Royal Artillay museum in Woolwich London. They were on loan to the Museum and had details of the engagements for my Father's M.I.D and MM. As has been said, citations for the MM were given to the receiver but not recorded outside of the diaries.
I was fortunate to find my Father's battery Commander's, Brigade Commander's and the Regimental diaries for the 1914 to 1917 period and all three had full details of him in them. Good luck with the search.
Col
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Hi Ali
The 'qualifying date' on his medal card is when he qualified for the 1914-15 Star. It is usually known as the date he 'entered theatre' (of war). There is often a second card with the MM on. But here it looks as if they have added MM in pencil in the top left hand corner.
Here is the link to the colour version on Ancestry - http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/1262/30850_A001562-00520/5148374?backurl=http%3a%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.co.uk%2f%2fcgi-bin%2fsse.dll%3findiv%3d1%26db%3dMedalRolls%26gss%3dangs-d%26new%3d1%26rank%3d1%26msT%3d1%26gsfn%3dpatrick%26gsfn_x%3d1%26gsln%3dtobin%26gsln_x%3d1%26MSAV%3d1%26uidh%3de13%26pcat%3d39%26fh%3d15%26h%3d5148374%26recoff%3d9%2b10%26ml_rpos%3d16&ssrc=&backlabel=ReturnRecord
Private Tobin's MM was not gazetted until September 1917 - https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/30287/supplement/9612
with the start of the section here - https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/30287/supplement/9612 - and it is also worth printing off this page - https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/30287/supplement/9612
As already said most MMs were awarded without the citation being published. If the Leinster's museum have nothing you should try local newspapers at the time of the gazette entry. There may be a photograph supplied by the family at the time of death as well.
Ken
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Many thanks to Col and Ken for those very helpful pieces. I am now looking at the Regimental websites. Has anyone had joy getting a citation from the Army Medal Office?