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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => London and Middlesex => Topic started by: bryceson on Thursday 27 May 10 11:18 BST (UK)
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I am researching organ-builders and organists before 1837. Interested particularly at the moment in members of the Pyke, England, Russell, Harris and Byfield families in St Pancras/St Andrew Holborn/St George the Martyr area.
Any information extra to what is available in the National Pipe Organ Register online is very welcome
George England d. 1775, John England d. 1791. Births needed.
If anyone can demonstrate a relationship to John Byfield born Old St Pancras 1793, living in Marlborough c. 1841-1870 as Professor of Music and Drawing master, then Ican show you a direct line back to 1597...
Bryceson
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Holden's 1811 Directory:-
Hugh Russell Organ builder 28 Theobalds Road
G.P.England Organ builder Steven Street Tottenham Court Road.
No other names listed.
Jennifer
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Hi
Prerogative Court of Canterbury wills
Will of John Byfield, Organ Builder of Saint George the Martyr, Middlesex 04 September 1756 PROB 11/824
Will of John Byfield, Organ Builder of Constitution Row Grays Inn Lane Road , Middlesex 04 December 1799 PROB 11/1333
Will of George Pyke, Organ Builder and Clock Maker of Saint Andrew Holborn , Middlesex
Date 30 May 1777
Catalogue reference PROB 11/1031
Will of George Pyke England, Organ Builder of Saint Pancras , Middlesex
Date 04 March 1815
Catalogue reference PROB 11/1566
Will of Hugh Russell, Organ Builder of Saint Andrew Holborn , Middlesex
Date 12 November 1825
Catalogue reference PROB 11/1705
Other organ builders also left PCC wills
Regards
Valda
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Dear Bryceson, The John Byfield that you refer to (Living Marlborough Wilts) was the brother of my 3x gt grandfather James Byfield, a professor of music and organist. There were other siblings. James was born 1793 London Oxford St, married Mary Ann Cooke St Anns Soho 1814, then moved to Reigate Sy. I believe he is descended from the Holborn organ builders. Send message back, I have much more. Regards
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I have been researching my family and one of my ancestors is called
Richard Westaway England who is listed in the 1841 census as a professor of music, though I realise this is likely to mean a music tutor. He was born 8Th February 1794 he died about 1842.
His son William England born on the 18th August 1825 moved to 11 John Street in London When he marries in 1753 he lists his father "Richard Westaway England" profession as organist.
Richard Westaway England had a father called George England who was born in Exeter at St George the martyr in 1766
The birth certificate of this George England gives the name of a father as George , but no mother is mentioned.
If you assume George England the organist was between 20 and 45 in 1760 when he built St Stephen Walbrook , there only 25 George Englands were born between 1715 and 1740.
One of them assuming he was at least 26 when he had a son would be my ancestor George England whose grandson was an organist Richard Westaway England.
Richard Westaway England had a son who lived at 11 John Street less than a quarter of a mile from 31 Theobald Road where John England the partner of George England had premises in 1778
At the very least this is quite a coincidence
Any ideas how is at all possible to confirm what might be a family link to the organ builder?
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On line tree gives George born 1766 Exeter married Mary Westaway born Crediton Devon 1766
Marriage crediton 25/4/1799
Mary's parents william and Elizabeth née Dale
Jennifer
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National Biography
George Pike England died 1814 son of George England 1740- 1788
Jennifer
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Hi Jenifer
It is very kind of you to get back to me including your the encycolpedia refererence.
There are a number of references that post date the encyclopedia that state that George pike England was not the Son of George England but instead his brother John England.
http://www.galpinsociety.org/galpinextras/GS_Whitehead&Nex_E_to_I.pdf
That is where 31 Theobalds Road is mentioned and it is stated that John was brother to George the encyclopdia now is not deemed to be correct on George Pike England being the son of George England.
There is another that I will dig up that says a note was found in a George Pike organ that refers to his father John England. However all that would mean they are not father and son
If you have ancestry you can see that in 1853 Richard Westaway England's son William was living very near Theobalds Road at John street and his father Richard Westaway England was an organist. If you look at the marriage bans in 1853 this is listed as the occupation of Williams father Richard Westaway England
As you say Richard Westaways Englands father, George England was born in 1766 in Exeter.
As you say Richard Westaway England's mother was Mary Westaway.
It also says the George England born in 1766 in Exeter had a father called George but I know nothing about him apart from his name George England and that my ancestor ,his grandson, is an organist. Richard Westaway England
As the opening post mentioned nobody currently knows when George England or John England was born but the dates the organs they built would give some indication
Peter
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Burial St Andrew Holborn 25/2/1815 George Pyke England aged 47 so birth c.1768
Jennifer
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Thanks again Jenifer
I am trying to get the birth dates of the "first" George England and his associate "John England"
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There is a John England on Anc..... receiving the freedom of the city of London, but I do not have access to it, perhaps someone else can help.
Jennifer
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There is a John England on Anc..... receiving the freedom of the city of London, but I do not have access to it, perhaps someone else can help.
Jennifer
There are a few in the collection - some are apprenticeships. None seem organ related - glaziers, wheelwrights and cooks
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I have two more peices of information and will start with the clearest on first
http://www.bristol.ac.uk/music/CHOMBEC/chombec-news-8.pdf
On page 5 of the above it mentions Richard England who was an organist from Tiverton in 1839
This must be my ancestor Richard Westaway England who was living in England then
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I do not have my own copy of ancestry at home and use the library but I went there and discovered although I can not find a birth certificate for Gerorge England born in 1735
There are about 13 "family trees where he appears" on the internet site ancestry
I realise I have repeated some information below but the 6 bullet points are things I have researched. Since my last posting I have found the marriage date of "George England" the organist to Mary Vicars as the 20th June 1766.
Also if the ancestry trees are correct my ancestor was adopted and not the natural son of his mother
I do not know is how accurate the ancestry family trees are is they were my ancestor is clearly adopted 7 days after "George England" the organist is married on the 20th June 1766
(1) my GGGG Grandfather baptised on the 27th June 1766 at George the Martyr in Exeter became a butcher and that his father was called George England.
I know what because in his will from 1837 it states his trade a butcher I show this as a comment.
(2) One of his 8 children is Richard Westaway England.
This is such an uncommon name I can only find one on the familysearch.org site.
(3) I also went to the library and found out that Richard Westaway England my GGG Grandfather was an organist . As he had a son called William who moved to London and lived at 11 John Street near Clerkenwell. When William gets married in 1853 he lists his father Richard Westaway England as an organist. I will see if I can get a hard copy later today of the bans, but if you have ancestry you can search for William England married 1853 and you will see his father’s name on the bands.
I got this from the bans of marriage of William England who married in 1853 and states his fathers profession as organist.
As I had been googling organists and the family name England I was aware that there are two organ makers called . “George England” “John England” who had premises near Clerkenwell.
So I looked at the various dates of the organs credited to “George England” and the first I could find was built in 1760.
So I wondered if the father of my ancestor also called “George England” was the organist “George England” as he would have been born about the right time.
I discovered is that nobody knows anything for sure about George England apart from some of the organs he built.
There is also confusion as to which ones he built alone or with “John England”
There are also different dates mentioned as to when he died or when he retired.
(4) The other thing I discovered was that the organist “George England” got married 7 days before my ancestor the butcher was baptised . My ancestor baptised 27th June 1766 . “George England “ organist married 20th June 1766
I wondered if that meant for sure there was no link with my family to him.
So I went back to the library and searched family trees and found 13 people who also claim to be desceded from the 1766 George England butcher and these trees say his parents were
Father George England – Mother various spellings (Dianna /Hannah/Anne) Beer
The trees on ancestry show these 6 children
Solomon England 27th July 1762 Shepton Beaumont
Samuel England 18th November 1764 Shepton Beaumont
Diane England 9th December 1765 Shepton Beaumont
George England 27th June 1766 St George the Martyr Exeter my ancestor became a butcher
James England 14st January 1767 Shepton Beauchamp
Giles England 21st February 1769 Shepton Beauchamp
(5) Amongst the six children above is my GGGG the butcher baptised 27th June 1766 whose son is the organist “Richard Westaway England” born 8th Febuary 1794
As you can see if these trees are true my ancestor is not the natural son of D/A Beer though he may be George England’s son. As you see he is baptised only 6 months after Diane England and 7 months before James England.
So seven days after “George England” the organist was married in London on the 20th June 1766 My ancestor “George England” born in 1735 adopted a son “George England” on the 27th June 1766 who became a butcher.
This George England born in 1766 had a son who went onto become an organist Richard Westaway England. One of Richard’s sons William lived near Clerkenwell and the premises of John England.
(6) As well as having a son who becomes an organist Richard Westaway had a son James , I have plugged in his birth date of 1803 with a two year error and only one James Listed appears who is a piano tuner
I know that I am saying if my ancestor born in Shepton Beaumont in 1735 was George England the organist he would also be a bigamist.
However if this is true a lot of other things make sense.
I realise this sounds unlikely but at the very least it is an incredible coincidence that he had a grandson Richard Westaway England who went onto become an organist and that this Richard Westaway England had a son who just happened to move to 11 John Street less than a quarter of a mile from 31 Theobald Street where John England and premises. One of Richard Westaway England's sons born in born 1803 is listed as a piano tuner in the 1841 census
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Page 5 of this mentions the organist Richard Westaway at an 1839 concert who lives in Tiverton it must be Richard Westaway England as he was the only organist called Richard England in Tiverton in 1839.http://www.bristol.ac.uk/music/CHOMBEC/chombec-news-8.pdf
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This post caught my eye for the simple reason that my organ-builder ancestor was apprenticed to George Pyke England in 1800.
Over the years, I have tried to find out more about GPE, but have found little more than you, Peter. GPE and his wife, Ann born Wilson, had four daughters: Jane Anne who married William Nicholls, another organ builder, in 1812. Nicholls took over GPE's business after the latter's death. The other three, Louisa, Elizabeth and Marian, were under the age of 22 years and still single. There were also two sons, George John (b. 1795) and Charles (b. 1800), who were not mentioned in GPE's will of 1812.
I feel obliged to point to out that an organist and organ builder are not the same thing. The latter was a skilled craftsman who had to be able to work with leather for the bellows, various metals for the pipes, as well as wood. This does not, of course, rule out a connection between your family and that of the organ builders.
I'll be interested to read what else you find out.
Justin
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Hi Justin
Thanks for the information on the difference between organists and organ makers.
I know very little about pipe organs but quite a lot of people called England in the 1841 census had manual jobs. The information below is a pivot table showing the occupations of the 97 people called England aged between 40 and 50 .
It is typical of the occupations of the day.
As you see the largest occupation is Agricultural Labourer though it is spelt in various way in the census returns.
Even though being an organist does not require the skill set of an organ maker
Being an organist makes it more likely your grandfather is an organ maker than the typical occupation available at that time.
Occupations of 97 Men called England in the 1841 census
Typical of the range of occupations of the day
Ag Lab 20
Ag Labour 1
Ag Labourer 7
Ag. Lab. 2
Ag.Lab 1
Agricultural Labourer 6
Butcher 1
Carpenter 3
Clock Maker 1
Cloth Weaver 1
Cloth Worker 1
Coal Miner 2
Confectioner 1
Crofter 1
Customs 1
Farmer 4
Farrier 1
Gardener 2
Gardner 1
Grocer 1
Handle Felt 1
Hat Maker 1
Hatter 1
Independent 1
J 1
Journeyman Shoe Maker 1
Journeyman Tanner 1
Labourer 4
Lace Hand 1
Land Drainer 2
Linen Bleacher 1
Mason 1
Painter 1
Pianoforte Tuner 1
Porter 1
Professor Of Music 1
Railroad Excavator 1
Sawyer 2
Schoolmaster Master 1
Shoe M 1
Shoe Maker 1
Shubber 1
Smith 1
Spirit Dealer 1
Stone Mason 1
Surgeon 1
Tailor 1
uk 1
Wooln Manfr 1
Yeoman 2
(blank) 3
Grand Total 97
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Hello Peter,
You have been very methodical in your analysis. However, what draws you to the conclusion that "Being an organist makes it more likely your grandfather is an organ maker than the typical occupation available at that time"?
Are you saying that the grandsons of organ builders were frequently organists? I'm afraid I did't see why there should be a correlation. Organ building was a craft to which a young lad was apprenticed for seven years, without necessarily having much choice in the matter. My organ builder ancestor was a parish orphaned son of a fruit seller who was taken on by GPE by shear coincidence. No other member of the family had any other connection with an organ.
Being an organist is certainly no mean feat, but surely has more to do with some sort of calling.
Anyway, I'm digressing.
GPE was a son of John and Jane and was baptised in St. James' Clerkenwell on 1 Oct 1767. His organ-building uncle George had married Sarah Bridge in the same church 10 years earlier.
Justin
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Hi Justin
I have two ways to attack this problem .
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Method 1
Somebody suggested to me who has a connection with GPE that
George England the Elder may have been born in Stepney
23 June 1713 SAINT DUNSTAN, STEPNEY, LONDON, ENGLAND John England Mary London
Born to John and Mary
The reason he gave was the same John and Mary have a son called John possibly his brother?
Born 11th April 1717 Saint Dunstan , Stepney , London , England
This may well be true 😊
If there were a paper trail to this I would stop 😊
That is my first way to attack the problem
I came here to find someone who had such a trail.
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Method 2
Depending on which years you use on ancestry say 1715 to 1740
You only get about 25 George Englands as the name is so uncommon
The George England born on the 23rd June 1713 is on my list maybe he is the one with a paper trail I would stop.
So me second method is based on my geekiness 😊 Before uni where I read Physics I used to solve all manner of logic problems for fun with my PC , sadly I do not have limitless time now.
Of the 25 for example one of them was born in Bessingham to Charles and Mary in 1727. He is another one on my list.
As I said George England is an ucommon name.
In 1749 in Bessingam there is only one George England having children married to Hannah.
So I cross the 1713 George off my list.
This list of 25 , well 24 now 😊
This list has
Has 7 George Englands from Norfork, 2 from York, 4 from London etc etc.
I know I could go through this list and cross off a lot more I may do this time permiting
However when I was at Uni this is just the kind if thing I would of loved to do so I am hoping to attract someone like me with lots of time.
As they could well identify George England the elders birth place etc etc as the original poster mentioned.
So I do not wish to have such a person put off by the fact organ makers are clearly different to organists.
Suppose you were trying to trace a famous scientist who made a significant discovery and had an uncommon name like George England.
If one of his grand children was a maths teacher , it would be perfectly true it would be a totally different type of animal.
However the most common occupation of the possible comtenders is agricultural labourer.
So it is a bit like Bayesian probability.
Of the 25 about 8 will have grandchildren who have very low skilled jobs.
So it would be “more likely” the descedent who was a maths teacher had a famous scientist than an agricultural labourer.
As well as that I think there was probably money to be made making organs.
My ancestor the organist sent his children to Blundells
http://www.blundells.org/
If and off course nobody knows George England the elder had grand children I do not think they would be agricultural labourers.
I think they would be in professions related to music , or else in occupations that require capital to start up.
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Excuse the long response method 2 is the Sherlock Holmes kind of method about eliminating the improbable.
I do realise that George England may not of had children so the whole think would be moot.
Also though the marriage records are clearly true. Human nature has to be taken account off.
Take the marriage this weekend of our Prince and his bride.
I understand now he has a heart condition and may or may not be able to walk his daughter down the Aisle I also “know” he stage the paparazzi photos for reasons other than making money.
If the truth is unpalatable we would only find out with other evidence and I do want get done for liable here with living people.
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As I said I do not want to put off a Sherlock Holmes genealogist who has time.
I could eliminate the Bessingham George England quickly. There are another 6 Geroge England born in Norfolk in the relevant time period.
In the period 1740 to 1777 there were 29 people born in Norfolk with a father called George England
The rarity of the George Englands name makes the exercise possible.
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About the point you make about your ancestor the son of a fruit seller, I mean something different.
It may well be a random choice as to who is apprenticed.
By being apprenticed it , to my mind anyway ,it makes is more likely his descendants will have a musical profession.
So if you have 25 sets of descendants
One set from one fruit seller who was apprenticed to GPE
Twenty four form fruit sellers who were not apprentices.
I think the one apprenticed to GPE is likely to have more musical descendants.
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Hello Peter,
I'm getting a bit confused about your main objective. Is it:
1) to establish the origins of George England, b. c1766 Exeter, butcher, d. 1837 Exeter
2) to establish the origins of George England, b. c1718, organ builder, bur. 1775 Clerkenwell
3) to establish a link between the two families
Pursuing objectives 1) and 2) would, of course, address 3) as well. To pursue these objectives, you have to go back to the primary sources, i.e. parish records, wills, apprenticeship records, etc.
You most definitely cannot rely on family trees created in Ancestry, unless they cite all the primary sources. The example you have cited of the England family from Shepton Beauchamp illustrates how fanciful such trees can be. Why would a couple living in SB have 5 children there and 1 on Exeter? These sort of assertions should sound the alarm bells.
Ancestry is not the best source for UK parish records. You need to subscribe to FindMyPast. I quote here from the Devonshire Council website:
Coverage of Devon parish registers online
Although many of the Church of England registers of baptism, marriage, banns and burial for Devon parishes are now digitised and most of these digitised register images are now included online on Find My Past, you should be aware of the limitations on what has been placed online.
A cut-off date of 1915 has generally been imposed for baptism, banns and marriage entries from Devon Heritage Centre and North Devon Record Office collections, which are digitised and available online on Find My Past, so these entries will only rarely relate to those still living. Also at present, only burial register entries up to 1915 have been made available by Find My Past.
A cut-off date of 1912 was applied to Plymouth and West Devon Record Office’s holdings of parish registers, which became available as digital images online on Find My Past several years earlier than ours.
Less than half of the digital images of parish registers which we have supplied so far to Find My Past were launched online in May 2014. For many parishes, only transcripts of baptisms, marriages and burials, which were in any case made available to Find My Past by the Devon Family History Society, and were already online, were made available during the first release in May 2014.
A second release of digital images was made in mid-November 2014, and this greatly increased the availability of Devon parish register images online. North Devon parish registers are now largely included.
Despite the release of this second batch of parish registers on November 2014, not all of the parish registers which we believe have been already digitised and supplied to Find My Past appear to have been uploaded yet.
There are a number of other parishes for which all surviving registers have been digitized, but which will always have unavoidable gaps in their online coverage, because of loss, destruction or severe damage to their registers in the past.
Note also, that there are a number of parishes [roughly 10% of Devon parishes] for which permission to digitise was initially refused by the incumbent, and these registers were digitized under alternative arrangements to those which were put in place for the majority of parishes. These digitized parish registers have now been made available on the members’ area of the Devon Family History Society website. In order to use this site you must be a member of the Devon Family History Society. We expect these registers to appear online on Find My Past at a later date.
It appears most likely that George the butcher was one of at least 5 children of:
George England, baptised 1737 in St. George's parish, bur. 1782 St. Olave's parish and
Anne (born Bear), b. c1738, bur. 1820 St. Mary Major (aged 82y)
who married on 9 Nov 1760 St. Mary Major
Returning to the origins of the organ-builder Englands, it is entirely possible that they were not a London family. With the help of apprenticeship records, I was able to establish that one of my London lines originated in Wantage (Berkshire), but a young man had moved to London in the early 18th century to take up his apprenticeship.
Those baptism records from Stepney are intriguing though.
Justin
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Hi Justin
All I know about George England the butcher my ancestor was he was baptised on the 22nd July 1766
In Exeter and one of his sons was an organist born 8th February 1794
He had another son born 6th October 1803 who I believe was a piano tuner in the 1841 census
No organ makers but musical.
Anyways nobody knew when George England was born , I thought.
How do you know it is 1718 .
That would quickly lead to finding a lot more about his birth place etc than is currently known as George England is such a rare name
Peter
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Hi Peter,
On 31 Dec 1775, a George England was buried in the burial ground of St. James, Clerkenwell. He was 57 years old. GE, the organ builder, is generally though to have died in about 1773. The Englands had a close association with Clerkenwell and neighbouring Holborn. GE married Sarah Bridge in that church in 1757.
Justin
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Hi Justin
I agree that a George England dieing in Clerkenwell in 1775 may be the organist George England.
It is the same kind of circumstantial proof that I have come across.
For example I know for my GGG uncle William England lived in Clerkenwell at 11 St John Street
having moved there from Devon.
I have no idea why someone from Devon would move to London and live in Clerkenwell unless there was a family connection.
Peter
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Justin
Like you I distrust the Ancestry trees , not through my own experience but comments made on other heritage sites
These trees ancestry trees agree that a George England married a Ms Bear in 1760 at Saint Mary Major.
They say they had at least 5 children ( They say 6)
Solomon, Samuel then three more the dates as below and finally Giles.
Three of the birth dates are
Dianne England born 9th December 1765
George England 22 June 1766 the Butcher
James England born 1st Jan 1767
So they agree with George England Marrying a woman maiden name Beer
I have copies of the birth certificates of Dianne born 9th December 1765 and James England born 1st January 1767. It is very hard to make out the name of the mother It could be Dianne or Anne
So I can prove that George England born 27th June 1766 was not the natural son of Anne Bear.
Peter
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How can you prove that Anne was not the mother of George born in 1766?
Have you seen the actual baptism register?
The actual Exeter parish records have the following entries for children of George E. and Anne:
George England, bp. 22 Jun 1766 St. George, Exeter (mother not named or perhaps illegible)
Sarah England, bp. 25 Dec 1768 St. Olave
Grace England, bp. 1 Sep 1771 St. Olave, bur. 1815
Richard Beer England, bp. 1774 St. Olave, bur. 1828 St. George
Thomas England, bp. 1777 St. Olave, bur. 1772 St. Olave
Justin
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As far as I know nobody knows who was the mother of George Butcher I mentioned I have read ancestry trees are not always accurate. I mentioned it once or twice I think.
The ancestry ones say he is the son of George from Shepton Beauchamp.
I have seen the birth certificates of the siblings of the George England from Shepton Beauchamp .
They would prove he was not the natural son of the wife of George from Shepton Beauchamp as I mentioned I do not necessarily these trees though
I did not know there was another George England who had children born near St George the Martyr in Exeter.
However though I have not seen the actual birth certificate of George butcher born at St George the Martyr, I did not know it could be seen as it is just a transcript without a mothers name shown?
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Hello Peter,
Far be it for me to dissuade you from following your chosen path of research. However, I put the following points to you:
Shepton Beauchamp (Somerset) is about 35 miles as the crow flies from Exeter. Most of the population of 18th century England may never have strayed more than 10 miles from their home village. Poor roads and the law of settlement saw to that. Moreover, nearby Yeovil would have been a more logical destination. It is extremely improbable that a couple would have one child in Exeter, but the rest in Shepton Beauchamp.
The keeper of the parish registers of St. George was the lazy sort (the genealogist's nightmare) and did not record the names of any of the mothers of children baptised in the 1750s and 1760s. None of these children were illegitimate. Illegitimate children were always recorded with their mother. The only course of action in these circumstances is to look for a likely marriage in the same or neighbouring parishes in the right timeframe.
On 9 Nov 1760, George England, butcher of the parish of St. Olave, married Anne Bear of the parish of St. Mary Major, in the parish church of St. Mary Major.
Four children of George and Anne England were baptised in the parish of St. Olave between 1768 and 1777. Fortunately, the keeper of these registers was more thorough.
Sarah dau. of George England was buried in St. Olave on 30 Dec 1764.
St. George's and St. Olave's are neighbouring parishes in the centre of Exeter.
As I wrote in previous post, the original parish records can be viewed on findmypast.co.uk
Justin
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Hi Justin
That is brilliant information to know 😊
You know more about my family than I do
I do know George Butcher was a butcher and his son was an organist in Tiverton in 1839.
I know that as I have a copy of his will which gives his profession. I also know his son was an organist when Thalberg visited Tiverton in 1839
http://www.bristol.ac.uk/music/CHOMBEC/chombec-news-8.pdf
I also know Richard had a son William who moved to Clerkenwell to work for a bank.
I do appreciate your posting the marriage band showing George England to be a butcher. That is clearly my ancestor who married Anne Bear.
The dates of the children born from 1768 to 1777 and especially Susan who died in 1764 make me think that unless there was a particularly complex relationship going on he is unlikely to be the organ maker.
Strange relationships do sometimes crop up I am watching the Archbishop Justin Wellby marry Harry and Megan
I bumped into him when he was a lowly bishop on the way to a prayer meeting, I am aware he is illegitimate.
So odd things do happen.
I now think it unlikely with the evidence you kindly posted.
I know DNA often sheds light on things, I have a DNA link to a cousin who has an ancestor called Westaway almost certainly one of Mary Westaways ancestors.
Anyways when George butcher married I am assuming he is the son of George England born 4th March 1738 in Exeter.
On a more general point about the organist George England I know the wiki entry is clearly wrong.
I doubt he related to me but at what age does an organ maker make his first organ?
The organist was building the organ at St Stephen Walbrook in 1760
Is there any way of knowing the normal age when an organ maker makes his first organ.
I may try to find which of the George Englands born is most likely to be the organist.
For curiosity now.
Thanks
Peter
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Hi Peter,
I am glad to have been of some help.
The recurrent occupation of butcher does pretty much clinch the father-son relationship.
I would agree that George E. senior was baptised on 4th March 1738/9 and was the son of Thomas.
Thomas Ingland married Sarah Preston on 7 Feb 1730/1 in St. Olave's parish church.
I believe the England family had moved to Exeter from the village of Heavitree, just outside Exeter. I'll leave you to trace them.
One more thing. Organists do not build organs, they play them ;)
Like numerous other researchers, I have drawn a blank on the origins of the organ-building Englands. As for the age when an OB built his first organ, take a look at this website https://alanjohnphillips.weebly.com/gorgeous-georgians.html (https://alanjohnphillips.weebly.com/gorgeous-georgians.html)
Cheers, Justin
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Hi Justin
I think you have not understood what I said, there is only one butcher born 1766.
The marriage certificate from 1760 you kindly posted ties in with his will from 1837. In both cases he is named a butcher.
I have no idea of the occupation of his father except he was called George.
I was saying earlier that organ buiders are more likely to have sons who are organists than agricultural labourers. We will have to agree to differ on that. By being apprenticed by GPE I think your ancestors would have been more likely to be musical or have a middle class profession at the least. The middle class were not thick on the ground then
I did see the record of the births of the children born to George and Anne including Sarah born in 1768
I did not see any children born before 1766, I am sure you have one and do not need to see it.
Are you saying that they had another child Sarah who died whilst an infant who was buried in 1764
It is that date of 1764 which has given me a rethink as George England butcher was baptised on the 27th July 1766.
George England the organist was married to Mary Vicars on the 20th July 1766
All the best
Peter
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Apologies Justin
Both George married in 1760 and his son were butchers
Teach me to watch the TV and type at the same time.
I still believe that Organ builders are more likely to have middle class children and hence organists.
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You will find this interesting http://www.exetermemories.co.uk/em/_streets/butchers.php (http://www.exetermemories.co.uk/em/_streets/butchers.php)
For me, the socio-historical context in which our ancestors lived is one of the most fascinating aspects of genealogy.
I am certainly not in a position to question your theory about organ builders and the emerging middle class, as I have only really researched my own organ-building ancestor, James Butler. He appears to have struggled financially and was buried in a public grave.
Justin
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Hi Justin
That was very kind of you to find that article I am rather squeemish if it was down to me the ox would die of old age
Thanks again
Peter