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General => Armed Forces => Topic started by: akissling on Friday 28 May 10 00:33 BST (UK)
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Does anyone know much about the 58th Regiment of Foot from 1832 until they ended up in New Zealand for the Maori Wars in 1845? My GGGgrandfather, Jeremiah Carey, joined in 1832 (he was from Nenagh, Ireland) but there is no record of him in the National Archives in the WO97 section. I am trying to find out if he received a Medal or if he even fought in the war (I have a few bits and pieces of where he went (Sydney as a guard on several convict ships and he died in NZ in 1859...was listed as a pensioner). Thanks!
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1828-39 58th were stationed in Ceylon
1839-41 England
1841 - Ireland (briefly)
1841-43 England
1843-45 New South Wales
1845-59 New Zealand.
If I remember later I'll look up the NZ medal roll for you.
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Thanks very much Neil! The list of places is very helpful! The look up would be great if you have the time.
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Jeremaih Carey, of Nenagh, a Private in the 58th Regiment was discharged in Auckland on 25 May 1856. In 1879 he married Mary Kinnirons. His will was probated in christchurch, NZ in 1884. Does this help
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his record IS in WO97
The National Archives reference: WO97 / 1565 / 53
His record is available on the Findmypast website.
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Thanks very much OAKLEIGH and gordonboy! I will check out the will in NZ! I found the reference to Jeremiah Carey in findmypast which looks very promising. I went and had a look for the record in the National Archives but didn't see it. I am guessing that it is the same thing that is in findmypast. I have to say, the NA site is very hard to search (and I am a librarian who should be used to this!!). I tried using the reference numbers that gordonboy posted and then tried a variety of combinations of Jeremiah's name and the 58th (Carey AND 58th, Jeremiah AND Carey AND 58th). Still nothing. Any suggestions?? Thanks very much again for the valuable information!
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The Friends of the Public Records Office (as was) only indexed WO97 records for men discharged before 1854. So his record will not show up on the NA Catalogue, and you have to use FindMyPast's indexing.
I am sure you have found on the Catalogue the man - same name and regiment - born c1790 and discharged 1822.
If you search the Catalogue for WO97/1565 you get this - http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/catalogue/displaycataloguedetails.asp?CATLN=6&CATID=690506&SearchInit=4&SearchType=6&CATREF=WO97%2F1565
The clue lies in the range - Ada to Hut. It was originally a box of documents, and is now (before being digitised by Findypast) a microfilm in Kew. The last part of the reference is not searchable.
btw...the Note - PLEASE NOTE: Electronic images of these records can be searched online through our website (a live link to this is available in the ScopeContent at series level). - is wrong. As said above only records for men discharged before 1854 were ever searchable online.
Ken
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Google ARCHWAY NEW ZEALAND that is the Government site - choose simple search, then type in Jeremiah Carey - just scroll down until you find the one you are looking for. Follow the directions on how to obtain the file. Ask for the complete file, not just the Will. Good luck.
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Looking to tap into your experience.
I am working on a James Quail born about 1766 in Downpatrick. This information originally came from a search in the National Archives website some years ago - but I did not download the document (silly me). He was discharged from the 58th Regiment of Foot in in 1795 after 6 years of service. So two questions
1) Why can I not find his discharge record now - even on Findmy past? Because it is in WO 121/21 which is still with NA
2) Where was the regiment between 1779 and 1795? Now think they were in Guadaloupe as he was wounded at Point Petre.
Hope an expert will be along soon.
Errors corrected and updated 25/5/2011
Dave
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Hi Dave,
On my records I have the following for -773 Private Jeremiah CAREY. Joined the 58th 29/03/1832
left Deptford on the 'Orator' 14/07/1843.
Arrived Sydney Aust. 14/12/1843.
Sailed to Auckland later in 1847 on the 'Pentongoee Bomangee' 12/07/1847.
On 25/05/56 he took his discharge, in Auckland.
It was a 'discharge to Pension'
In November 1858 the Rutlandshire Regiment of Foot Disbanded. A few of the soldiers of that Regiment returned to England with their Commanding Officer, Colonel Robert Henry Wynyard. So dont know what he did after his discharge.
All the best with your research of the 58th.
Bev
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Hi can you help me find a record for Owen Commons from the 58th foot #1832 discharge NZ in 1853 I found this info but cant find any more details in findmypast?
thanx bernice
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Hi Bernice,
I found Owen's death notice in papers past (a great site for newspaper articles). Interestingly he lived on the same street as my ancestor, Jeremiah Carey (Chapel Square).
It reads:
COMMONS. — On April 7. at his. residence. Chapel-street. Owen Commons, formerly of H.M. 58th Regiment; aged 70 years
Here is a link to the notice:
http://bit.ly/rgH8oL
I hope that this helps!
Alison
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Many thanx Alison
I did try papers past for a marriage & shipping but only got a lot of "House of Commons" !
it always surprises me how others get different results
cheers Bernice
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Hi Bernice,
I found a marriage between Owen COMMONS and Sarah FLANAGAN took place at Auckland NZ on 19 January 1865.
I attempted to find children born to that couple, but there were no parent names listed with children that I thought may be theirs. i.e:
1865- John Commons born Auckland died 1872
1866- Ellen Commons
1870- Bridget Commons - died 1888 aged 17 yrs.
1872- John Commons
1872- Bessie Theresa - died 1872 aged 8 hrs. old
Is there any others I could look up for you?
Cheers, Bev
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Hi Alison
This family gets very complicated as their are 2 Owens of the same generation
1 arrived on Surat in 1864 who married Sarah Lived in Mangere.
Our Owen married Ann or Mary Cavanagh but haven't found that yet abt 1858. Edward, John and Bridget are their children but didnt die young, so they must belong to someone else.
Many thanx for your help
BTW where is Chapel Square?
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Hello again Bernice.
The Chapel Square was in the days of Governor Hobson, and his surveyor Felton Mathew. The area involved 1840's Auckland and ran from the harbour up to the Cathedral where it squared off and had two entrances off Wyndham Street.
Hope that helps.
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Sorry Bev
I Just realised I thought you were the person who 1st replied to the post my apologies
Can you find the marriage of Owen & Ann or Mary please?
thanx for the information on Chapel Square
Cheers Bernice
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I'm still hoping to find either a archives or findmypast record of Owen joining the 58th Regiment
Thanx Bernice
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Hi Bernice,
I found Anne CAVANAGH married Owen CUMMINS on 28 February, 1858. I am sure this is the couple you are looking for, as there were many spelling errors made in early days of registration.
A Mary COMMONS died 1840, as registered in NZ.
All the best,
Bev
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More to the last message I sent - Anne is still listed as Cummins at time of death - Anne CUMMINS death 01 July 1898, aged 65 years. Quite strange that they spelt Owen's death as COMMONS !! Bev
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http://freepages.history.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~garter1/shipsthe58th.htm
http://freepages.history.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~garter1/surnames58th.htm
Owen COMMONS listed twice, suggesting there were TWO in that regiment by that name. There were also TWO with surname CAVANAGH .... James and John.... Given that when deaths occurred within the rank and file that often the widows remarried soldiers in those ranks (maintaining the access to pensions to help raise the children of a first marriage etc), could James and/or John CAVANAGH be connected to Anne Cavanagh who married Owen Cummins in 1858? Would a printout of that 1858 marriage show the marital status for the bride and groom ... perhaps both were widowed...
I have had a good look through my list for 1855 NSW Rifles Corp, none with surnames Commons/Cummins and variants, and none with surname Cavanagh and variants. But I do know that several of my NSW forebears did cross the Tasman around this era and re-join Auckland Volunteers. having arrived in NSW as part of the 58th Reg.
Cheers, JM
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Hi Bev
You mention Owens death is as COMMONS but when was it please?
I cant find them buried either
Many thanx for all your help
Cheers Bernice
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Sorry Bev of course I have Owens death from Alison & papers past
Cheers Bernice
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NZ BDM online is back up after maintenance and gives this on the death index ;)
1889/1657
Commons
Owen
70Y
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Some trivia re 58th Reg and the WYNYARD families
http://adb.anu.edu.au/biography/wynyard-edward-buckley-2825
Edward Buckley WYNYARD was at one stage in his early military career in the 58th Reg. In Sept 1847 he "succeeded Sir Maurice O'Connell in command of the troops in New South Wales, Van Diemen's Land and New Zealand."
Also another WYNYARD chap mentioned earlier on this thread
In November 1858 the Rutlandshire Regiment of Foot Disbanded. A few of the soldiers of that Regiment returned to England with their Commanding Officer, Colonel Robert Henry Wynyard. So dont know what he did after his discharge.
All the best with your research of the 58th.
Bev
The military barracks for the garrison forces were (until the construction of Victoria Barracks c 1846) facing Wynyard Square. My military forebears were quartered in the barracks at Wynyard (York St Sydney) and their parade ground was Wynyard Square. The parade ground was where the NSW Rum Corps marched from when they were bringing down Governor Bligh (he of the Bounty ! 'twas back in 1808, only time the military staged a successful coup d'état in NSW and Australian history).
http://www.cityofsydney.nsw.gov.au/aboutsydney/HistoryAndArchives/SydneyHistory/ParksHistory/WynyardPark.asp
http://nla.gov.au/nla.pic-an10759912-s13
Cheers, JM
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Hello again Bernice,
There is a book published by the NZ Genealogical Society, written by Lyn and Hugh Hughes, namely 'Discharged in New Zealand'. It has lists of all the Rank and file of all Regiments involved in the formation and security of early NZ.
No Officers are listed in this book.
Owen COMMONS -Pvt. 1632 - from Tipperary was a labourer when he joined the 58th Rutlandshire Regiment of Foot 09 July 1842. He took his discharge in NZ -31 May 1853.
There is only one Owen Commons listed with the 58th in their book.
Cheers,
Bev
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You are a treasure Bev
I had his # as 1832 but can see how that could be easily be a mistake
I still cant find the information on the UK archives though
Many Thanx for your help
Cheers Bernice
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Thanks so much for that Bernice, but I have to apologise -as the Army # I sent you for Owen Commons was wrong. You were right with # 1832. I have just collected new reading glasses and can see properly once again.
Sorry!!
Bev
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Hi Bernice,
I'm adding this extra infor on Owen that is gleaned from "Discharged in New Zealand".
He left Britain from Debtford, on 'HMS Anson' (as a guard on that convict ship)
07 Sept. 1843. Arrived Hobart Town 04 Feb. 1844.
20 Sept. 1845 left Sydney on the 'British Sovereign', and arrived at the Bay of Islands, NZ, 09 Oct. 1845 to participate in the War against northern Maori.
Many of the regiment left NZ for Syney Aus in December 1846. Except for a detachment which stayed at Wellington. They returned from Australia to Auckland nine months later, and remained at various 'militia districts' for the next 11 years, until the Regiment disbanded in November 1858, when most stayed in NZ and Australia.
Cheers,
Bev
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Hi Bev
Your extra effort with more information far outweighs a slight error as I even get those # mixed up in the phone book (my glasses arent that good either)
again many thanx
Cheers Bernice
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Hello
I'm a Kiwi living in NZ.
I want to know more about my great great great grandfather Bartholomew McIlroy.
There is a reference to him here on this 58th Regiment webpage http://freepages.history.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~garter1/58thfoot.htm (on this page here http://freepages.history.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~garter1/m58th.htm).
There is also a reference to him on this National Archives page here:- http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/catalogue/displaycataloguedetails.asp?CATLN=7&CATID=-5900728&j=1
The National Archives record is a bit difficult to interpret. If I am reading it correctly it would suggest that he was aged 27 in 1844 (making his DOB 1817 although I have other possible DOBs including 1823) and discharged in November 1844 due to some kind of ailment. My knowledge of the 58th is limited but looking at the dates the ships arrived in NSW this could suggest that he was discharged not long after he arrived and possibly prior to the 58th heading to NZ (??).
Aside from this my information is limited. He was possibly born in or near Markethill or Mullaghbrack, Armagh. He died in 1869 possibly in Thames. He married an Ellen Connor (died 1866 Otahuhu). They had 10(!) children.
I'm a bit new to all this but will hopefully one day have worked out where/when he was born; where/when he enlisted; which ship he sailed on; where he departed from; how he made it to NZ (with the 58th on the North Star/Velocity or independently); where/when he met Ellen Connor; where they are buried etc etc
I will try to get my hands on a copy of Hugh & Lyn Hughes' book "Discharged in New Zealand".
Until then, if anyone could give me any pointers or helpful hints it would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks
Rich
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Hi Rich,
Your ancestor is listed in Discharged in NZ, by the Hughes.
It states he was a blacksmith, born at MULLABRACH, (I would think that to be
in Ireland). He joined the 58th Reg. 26. o5. 1838. He left London on the
'William Jardine', a convict ship, where he would have been a guard, 01.07.1844. He was then on the 'HMS North Star Velocity' to Auckland, NZ. 1845.
The death of Bartholomew McIlroy is registered at BDM Internal Affairs NZ, as 1869. I didn't find a marriage record. There are 2 children born between 1845 and 1865 which may have been his, but parents not listed. They are
Rose Ann, born at Auckland 1855: and David Thomas Christie, born 1865.
Hoping this is some help in your search. Every best wish, Bev
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Thank you! Thank you! Thank you!
It is a lot more than just "some help". You've answered a number of unresolved queries that I had and given me new leads/historical references to research/follow up. For instance, the July 1844 journey of the William Jardine seems to have gone via Van Diemen's Land (Tasmania).
My inherited records show a daughter Roseanne McIlroy DOB 30.01.1855 - so quite possibly the Rose Ann you refer to - but there is no reference to a David Thomas Christie.
I'm looking forward to getting my hands on a copy of the Hughes' book.
Thank you for helping me.
Rich
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Yes, the 'William Jardine' went to Hobart before arrival at Sydney.
Also - the death register for Ellen McIlroy is dated 1870, (no date or month)
in the NZ -BDM.
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Thanks.
I came across the 1870 Ellen McIlroy BDM reference you refer to a few days ago. In your experience is it best to get the death certificate or the death print out?
I now have a copy of the Hughes' book which is really quite impressive. How good would it be to spend some time with the Hughes and "pick their brains."
It's a pity there isn't more information online about the 58th. I'll definitely try and get a copy of Michael Barthorp's To Face The Daring Maori.
Thanks again.
Rich
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Hi Rich,
Most definitely buy a death 'print out'.
That way you a sure of receiving exactly what was written at the time. As we all know, certificates often have many errors, due to human 'typo's' or wrong translations.
Best wishes in your research,
Bev
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Cheers.
Here I go...
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Can anyone tell me where members of the 58th Regiment who did not go to Ceylon were stationed at in 1834. I am looking for information on Sergeant James Noakes (b.1805 Hastings, enlisted 1822- discharged 1846 NZ). His military record (WO97) does not mention any overseas service, excluding Aus & NZ. He and his family travelled to Australia aboard the ship, Equestrian in 1844. James was apparently married somewhere in 1834, but we cannot locate any marriage records. I have documents that place him at Brighton, England in 1822 & in Ireland in 1826. In 1836 he also had a son born and christened in England. However, he seems to have disappeared somewhere between 1826 -1836. I cannot place him in Ceylon which makes me think he was based somewhere in the UK. Did the 58th Head Quarters go to Ceylon, or just the troops? Has anyone got any suggestions about where James may have been stationed in 1834. We would also like to know what he actually did in the army. Was he involved in enlistments or with horses, etc?
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The Depot of each regiment stayed in the UK at all times - to carry on finding and training recruits. So roughly about 10% of its strength.
The Depot would have been in Portsmouth when the service companies sailed in June 1828. Most East Indies stationed regiments retained a Depot in Chatham, so it would not surprise me if they moved there shortly after June 1828.
He may have started out as a servant to an officer who stayed behind for example. But you are unlikely to discover why for sure.
Ken
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hi Rich,
I too am researching my great great great grandfather and I think we have the same man! Do you know if you have Johns as a family name as well? One of Bartholomews daughter`s married a man by the name of Thomas Johns who was a gold miner in Thames. The death in 1870 of Ellen was actually a girl of 10 years old. So possibly one of Bartholomew and Ellen`s daughters.
Lindys
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KM1971 - Many thanks for your help Ken. James has a son born Portsmouth in 1836 so the idea that he never went to Ceylon but stayed at Portsmouth and/or Chatham Depot sounds highly likely.
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Lindys/Oldsoldier
When you have made three postings you can contact each other via Personal Messages.
The 58th Regiment returned to Gosport/Portsmouth from Ceylon in June 1839, so maybe the Depot stayed in that area rather than moving to Chatham.
Ken
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Lindys
Our Bartholomew is a popular man!
Bartholomew’s daughter Margaret married Thomas Johns. I have Margaret’s DOB as 24.09.1849.
So Bartholomew sails on the William Jardin from London on 1 July 1844 (this is the date in the Hughes’ book although other websites give 11 August 1844 as the departure date which is a little confusing). Does anyone know where in London it would’ve sailed from? The Hughes’ book lists all the ships and where they sailed from - for some it specifically mentions Woolwich or Deptford but for others it just mentions London.
Bartholomew’s eldest son James (my great great grandfather) is born 1842 in Chatham, Kent – which I suspect was where the 58th were stationed. One website records that 7 women and 10 children sailed on the William Jardin. I suspect James and his mother Ellen are amongst this group. I can’t begin to imagine what it must’ve been like for a 2 year old to travel all that way (over 4 months) in a wooden ship. Can anyone direct me to a picture of what one of these late 19th century convict ships looked like? Can anyone tell me what route they would’ve taken from London to Australia/NZ (around South America or around Africa)? Would it have stopped anywhere?
The William Jardin (with Bartholomew) arrives Van Diemen’s Land (Hobart) on 20 November 1844. The guard proceed to Sydney on a different ship. I understand they were stationed at Paramatta (now the NSW Lancer Barracks). Then in 1845 Bartholomew sails with the 58th to NZ on board either the HMS Northstar or the brigantine (whatever that is) Velocity.
I’d like to know how Ellen and James got here. Maybe they initially stayed in Sydney because the 58th return to Sydney in 1846 for garrison duty (except for a detachment that remained at Wellington). Then the 58th come back to NZ in 1847. Did the women and children just follow the regiment around? The birth records of the two children born in this period (John and Jane) may provide some answers.
I suspect Bartholomew fought at Puketutu (Heke’s Pa) and possibly Ruapekapeka (Kawiti’s Pa).
That’s pretty much all I have that is 58th related.
So many questions so few answers!
I’ll send you a PM with other non-58th stuff. The 1870 Ellen McIlroy BDM reference will be a daughter born 1860.
cheers
Rich
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Hi Rich,
Yes Bart is a popular man!!!
I think from memory you do have the right birth date for Margaret. Will hunt over the weekend in my records. Margaret married Thomas Johns who was a gold miner then mine manager. I do have info for you, so will send you a pm.
Cheers
Lindys
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Greetings fellow McIlroy member. I've been researching this branch of the family for a few years now. My great grandfather was William Francis McIlroy.
This is what I have so far:
Bartholomew I McIlroy, born Mullabrach (as spelt in Discharge papers), married Margaret McGahan. No definite dates of birth, marriage or death. For more information on the 58th, go to: http://www.nzfenciblesociety.org.nz or visit your local library for a copy to read.
They had as far as I can tell, 2 children: Samuel, born 1813 Co Armagh, death 1 September 1884.
I have a marriage for Samuel, to Ann Watson, no reference to marriage but a guess-timate death, about 1878. No clues as to children yet, for this marriage.
Bartholomew II, born Ireland about 1823, death 9 November 1869 at Shortland (Thames). He married Ellen Connor.
From this union, we have 10 children:
1) James McIlroy born about 1843, Chatham, Kent, UK. No date of death, but he married Catherine Murray about 1871. No children identified yet, lots of possibilities.
2) John McIlroy born about 1845, Otahuhu, Auckland, NZ, No date of death, but he married Elizabeth Powdrill. Not confirmed yet, and no mention of children.
3) Jane McIlroy born about 1847, Otahuhu, Auckland, NZ, date of death about 1902. Married twice: 1) John Casey. 2) Owen Brislen. No other details yet.
4) Margaret McIlroy, born about 1849, Otahuhu, Auckland, NZ. No date of death. Married 4 times. a) Thomas Johns. b) James Martin. c) James O'Hara Griffen and d) Arthur Thomas. I've just ordered these marriage certificates to get more information.
5) Patrick McILroy born about 1852, Otahuhu, Auckland, NZ, date of death about 1902. No marriage discovered.
6) Roseanne, born about 1855, Otahuhu, Auckland, NZ, no other details, yet.
7) William Francis McIlroy, born 4 March 1858, Otahuhu, Auckland, NZ, died 14 October 1933 at Ohineakai, East Coast, NZ. Married Harata Takarure Tarapehu and they had 9 children...my lineage.
8) Ellen McIlroy born about 1860,Otahuhu, Auckland, NZ, died 1870, Hauraki, Coromandel, NZ.
9) Samuel McIlroy born about 1862, Otahuhu, Auckland, NZ. Possible death about 1919.
10) Henry Arthur McIlroy, born 17 Feb 1865 Otahuhu, Auckland, NZ, christened in 1865 and died May 1865. Christening record taken from Catholic Church Register.
I have 60% (??) complete genealogy from William Francis McIlroy through to 2011. If you want to share, drop me an email.
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When you say “Bartholomew I McIlroy, born Mullabrach (as spelt in Discharge papers)” are you saying that he was also a soldier?
The NZ Fencible Society website only seems to talk about the Fencibles but I guess it does suggest that there could’ve been a military presence in Otahuhu prior to/other than the Fencibles.
The Margaret who married Thomas Johns is Bartholomew and Ellen’s daughter. The Margaret who married Arthur Thomas is James and Catherine’s daughter.
I have information for Samuel (children/grandchildren) and for Bartholomew’s son James’ family – so will PM you.
cheers
Rich
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Hi Rich,
Yes he was a soldier of the 58th Rutlandshire Regiment of Foot, and fought
in the Land Wars of NZ.
Bev
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Hi Richard, thanks for your PM. Geez, loved your questions and statements.
1) Mullabrach, was the spelling in the Discharge book. My Google search showed Mullaghbrack in County Armagh and roughly "down the road" from Belfast.
2) Samuel McIlroy born about 1813, this information received in my original research and is open for correction.
3) Reference to Mullaghbrack, see answer number 1.
4) Regarding Samuel's death, as in answer 2, from original research and is open for correction.
5) At the moment, I cannot locate a place of death for Samuel.
6) You raise a valid question as to whether Bartholomew II went back to Sydney or even Ireland. Honestly, I don't know yet. My process of elimination as I get information and certificates dictates my "final" postings! So everything I do, I'm open to correction.
7) Information about William Francis or Harata or her father Hirini, I've only heard "stories". Most relate to William having "issues" with the bottle! Whether that meant any form of abuse, I don't know and my elder cousins aren't or won't say. All that's mentioned is that life for them was tough, considering at the time, they were breaking-in the country for farming. How William got to the East Coast, we have no information on that.
8) Ohineakai...as you've discovered, it's at the end of McIlroy Road at Waipiro Bay. A track used to lead to Ohineakai, but erosion over the years, means access is via the beach and usually at low tide or you're climbing scrub covered hills and marshy land. The walk from the end of the road is about 40 minutes, the land has a large flat area and an old cemetery with some existing headstones of extended members of the family. Why they moved is not clear, but most of the family moved further up the hills to areas called Taharora and Te Kiekie. Follow your Google map west-ish and you'll find them. BTW, McIlroy Road was named after McIlroy family who lived at the end of the road, Jim McIlroy, a son of William and Harata and brother of my grandmother Mereana.
9) The Catholic Register I mentioned is actually located on CDRom at Auckland Central Library and is a collection of all the Church records, I think for Otahuhu, births, baptisms, confirmations, marriages and deaths. The entry for Henry Arthur shows surname, First names, year of event, the event, fathers name, mothers name and an ID which I couldn't get an explanantion.
I hope this un-muddies the waters a bit.
Chu.
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Ooops, forgot to mention the Fencibles... when they retired/took their discharge/pension, they were given a plot of land with a "house" on it. The land plots were either at Howick or Otahuhu.
Did you know that some of the McIlroy family were given McElroy spellings?? I found some references to a Samuel and Rose McElroy, who were buried in the Catholic Section of the Symonds Street Cemetery. No details on these and a large number of the graves were exhumed, cremated and re-interred in a mass grave in the cemetery, due to the building of the Northern Motorway. From the Grafton motorway overbridge, follow the fencline for about 50 metres in a straight line along the fence, you'll find a huge bronze memorial with bronze plaques and the names. Any headstones were laid down on the lawn of the mound.
Cheers again,
Chu.
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Hi Rich,
Yes he was a soldier of the 58th Rutlandshire Regiment of Foot, and fought
in the Land Wars of NZ.
Bev
That would be Bartholomew II (born c.1823). Jaffer’s original post indicated that his father Bartholomew I (born c.1800) was also a soldier ...but I suspect not.
Thanks for all your information Jaffer (Chulu?).
My interest in Mullabrach is not so much the spelling (Mullaghbrack on the map, Mullabrack in local useage etc) but the source of your information that Bartholomew I was born there. If both he and his son Bartholomew II were born there then this would suggest that the family had a relatively long association with the area.
Ooops, forgot to mention the Fencibles... when they retired/took their discharge/pension, they were given a plot of land with a "house" on it. The land plots were either at Howick or Otahuhu.
I don’t have any information to suggest that Bartholomew II was a Fencible.
The Hughes book indicates that there *was* a military presence in Otahuhu (prior to/other than the Fencibles) which could explain why the McIlroys had a long association with that area also. For example, when the 18th Regiment disembarked in Auckland they went straight to “Otahuhu camp”, a number of regiments (14th, 43rd 70th etc) seem to have been based at Otahuhu at various times or had detachments based there, almost all of the 68th who took their leave in NZ were discharged at Otahuhu etc etc.
The Hughes book simply says that Bartholomew II was “Discharged with Gratuity” – which I would have thought was some kind of monetary payment.
The muster books would probably tell us whether Bartholomew returned to Sydney in 1846 with the rest of the 58th or remained here in NZ.
We should probably return this thread to its original 58th Regiment of Foot status – on that note 58th related websites (mainly pertaining to NZ) which may be of interest to others include: A Soldiers Life http://www.benner.org.nz/index.php/stories/interesting-stories/130-a-soldiers-life; Wargaming the First Maori War (!!) http://www.wargamesillustrated.net/Default.aspx?tabid=292&art_id=2166 – has info on the campaigns; and of course 58th Foot Rutlandshire Regiment http://freepages.history.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~garter1/58thfoot.htm
Thanks again to everyone for their input.
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Hi ya Richard, Merry Christmas and Happy New Year.
On my current mission, I'm hoping the weather will be good enough for a visit to Ohineakai. I've been to Akuaku and it's a truly great walk. Ohineakai is a little bit further "up-the-hill". The family do "walks" every so often, just to cover the ground our ancestors covered, so, hopefully, I'll be doing that before I head back to Australia.
You asked the question about how William and Harata could have possibly met, and I think I might have found a possible answer for that, today in the Gisborne library. A look at the Akuaku native school registration records show that Harata attended this school. In the listings, it states:
Date of admission or re-admission: 1 February 1886, parent or guardian: Hirini Pehu. Date of Birth: 14 October 1874.
Last day of attendance: 27 January 1888. And a curious title, Destination: Kennedys Bay. Now, I know the whanau group we belong to is called Whanau a Rakairoa. We have a connection with Maori at Kennedy Bay (on the Coromandel) when trading was going on between the EAst Coast and Auckland. I haven't connected anything with Coromandel YET, but the McIlroy family were working either as blacksmiths or miners on the Coromandel and it's POSSIBLE that Harata met William Francis, under these circumstances.
Unfortunately, I'm still getting feedback from the elder family members that William Francis DID have issues with the bottle, and at times had taken to "abusing" Harata. Rumours are still doing the rounds that the elder sons of Harata and William Francis were more than willing to "bash" the old man.
Anyway, that's all part of our history at this end of the McIlroy world, and I'm taking the good with the bad and the ugly.
Well, after New Years day, I'll be heading up the East Coast to continue the chase and head back to Australia on the 23rd of January. When I get back, I'll update ALL my records and will scan and email my results to you.
In the meantime, enjoy the fruits of the research, and yes, you WILL walk through quite a lot of cemeteries, but it's part of the journey. Have a magic New Year, and keep in touch.
Sincerely your relation,
Chulu Fox...aka Jaffer.
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Sergeant James Noakes was my Ggrandfather. He was born 1805 in Hastings, Sussex Eng. In 1872 aged 17 he joined the 58th Regiment of Foot at Chatham Barracks, Maidstone, Kent. In 1834 while posted at Fermoy Barracks in Cork, Ireland, he married Mary Ann Thornhill. At no time was he posted to India. Postings included 1826 Waterford Ireland - 1834, Cork Ireland - 1840, Portsmouth England - 1841 Scotland and Dublin Ireland. In 1844 he departed Woolwich England as part of the guard aboard the Convict Ship 'Equestrian' bound for Tasmania and Sydney Australia. Upon arrival in 1844 he spent 92 days as a guard on Norfolk Island and from there he was dispatched to the Bay of Islands, New Zealand where he took part in the Maori Wars. In 1846 he was discharged (Chelsea Pensioner) and sailed for Australia on the barque 'Slains Castle'. He settled in West Maitland, NSW where he died 25 Jan. 1852. Children: John Noakes b. 1836 Gosport, Hampshire, England d. 1912 Granville NSW Aust. Three children died in infancy. Mary Ann Noakes b.1841 Dublin Ireland d. 1925 Ashfield NSW Aust. James Equestrian Noakes b. 1844 on Convict ship 'Equestrian' d. 1905 Qld. Aust. Thomas SlainsCastle Noakes b. 1845 returning from Maori Wars on barque 'Slains Castle' d. 1908 Tamworth NSW Aust. George Noakes b. 1848 Maitland NSW Aust. d. 1917 Qld. Aust.
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I wonder if anyone has advice on how to find out exactly where the 58th regiment of foot was, in the interval between coming back from Ceylon in 1839, and going out to New South Wales in 1843?
They are said to be waiting in Gosport for transport to Cork, in Feb 1840. But then they are sailed from Gosport to Glasgow to replace the 78th (?) Reg, in July 1840.
Are they then in Glasgow until shipped out to Australia and later NZ?
And is anyone able to point to which barracks they were in at Gosport? They are in Forton Barracks there in 1836 (when they are also in Ceylon, so perhaps that is just a small group or people from its Depot?) But they are not there in 1840 according to the website on Forton Barracks.
But as you can see I am very interested in the regiments exact location, particularly in the first half of 1840. (it is a girl meets boy(Ensign) affair :-)
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My abbreviated records - I have:
1805 Born James Noakes (Serg.) Sussex England.
1822 Enlisted 58th Reg. Maidstone Kent England (did not go to India)
1834 Fermoy Barracks Ireland - married Mary Ann Thornhill.
1836 Son John was born Gosport Hampshire England (Military Barracks associated with Navy)
1840 Transported to Glasgow Scotland on HMS Sapphire and HMS Athol
1841 Posted to Dublin Ireland - daughter was born.
1844 20 Jan. Departed Woolwich England as guard (with family) on board Convict ship 'Equestrian' bound for Tasmania and N.SW. Australia.
1844 90 days on Norfolk Island
1845 Maori Wars Bay of Islands New Zealand
1846 Discharged returned to Australia - Chelsea Pensioner. 1852 Died.
AFTER 1859 58TH REGIMENT RETURNED TO FARNBOROUGH ENGLAND AND THEN TO BELFAST IRELAND. THEY THEN RETURNED TO INDIA.
Someone asked what did James do? It has been suggested by relative married into Military family that at such a young age (17 years) he may have been assigned as servant to high ranking officer (looking after his clothes, horses etc.). On 17th Dec 1836, acting corporal James Noakes applied to join the police force - dhbe/DH/B/136/60 East Sussex records. This application was accompanied by endorsed testimonials (25 April 1836) by Willoughby Cotton Major General commanding Western District so there may be some truth in it. (Unfortunately he wasn't tall enough - 6ft). Also his discharge papers were signed by G. Kirby Horseguards 1847. Of course as a Sergeant he would have trained recruits.
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Thanks for these points, valmai3.
I am focusing on the time between (most of) the regiment returning from Ceylon to Gosport in June 1839 and the shipping off to Glasgow in July 1840. Where in Gosport were they barracked, and was the whole regiment there? (did the Depot stay in the Portsmouth area?)
After they ship out, they seem to be divided between Glasgow and Dublin. Their Major-General Grant actually dies en route between Glasgow and Dublin in 1841. Are there any details about where they are quartered in Glasgow? I think in Dublin it is Richmond Barracks.
Then in July 1843 they are off to New South Wales..and NZ.
My interest is in an ensign in the 58th, later Captain, Henry Colin Balneavis b.1818 in Ghent (even later Lieut.-Col. in NZ force in Auckland). And mostly in his whereabouts as ensign (from 1837) and lieutenant (1841, I think). I have a lot of data on the rest of his life already.
PS. Is anyone aware of a topic touching on the 213 years of the Scots Brigade in the Netherlands?
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Sorry Clemens, I have nothing more regarding Gosport. Regarding Scotland, 1841 Census has James billeted with members of regiment - Civil Parish Edinburgh, Canongate, Midlothian. Before that they were in Glasgow. No mention of wife but she was probably waiting for birth of baby in Dublin. We know that James was in Dublin by 22nd November 1841 in time for birth. Then by 20 Jan 1844 they had departed Woolwich on convict ship 'Equestrian' bound for Tasmania and N.S.W. Australia. Serg. James took part in First Maori War - 1845-1846 - Bay of Islands, New Zealand against Hone Heke and his ally Ally Kuwati.
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thanks valmai3, - your 2018 mail and this week's were already a good help.
Piecing it together, I get the following:
Movements of the 58th Regiment of Foot (Rutlandshire) -1828-1859
In Ceylon, India from 1828 to 1839 (after taking part in Peninsular War)
To England (Portsmouth/Gosport) June 1839
To Glasgow from Gosport in July 1840 -so a year in Gosport, but where? (And in February 8 1840 Naval and Military Gazette the 58th were rumoured to go off to Cork on “The Jupiter”, i.e. Fermoy Barracks, where some soldiers of the regiment were in 1834, while the rest were in Ceylon. The Jupiter was much delayed returning with the 61st from Ceylon, and in March had to go into Cork b/c strong east wind in Channel. Then refit. -they did not go to Cork)
Still in Scotland 1841 (Glasgow and Edinburgh), but also in Richmond Barracks, Dublin. (Recruiting in Scotland or pre-1845 stirrings? )
Still in Dublin July 1842 (cf birth in officer’s family)
To New South Wales, Australia, in July 1843 (gradually, some soldiers as guards on 19 convict ships 1843-45)
On to New Zealand from Sydney in March-April 1845, (ships North Star, Slains Castle) Bay of Islands, North Island, Auckland. Flagstaff Wars. (some back and forth Sydney-NZ)
Back from New Zealand in March 1859 (started out in November 1858), many, over 300 men, discharged in NZ.
The 58th today is the 3rd battaillon 'Steelbacks' of the Royal Anglian Regiment with HQ in Bury St. Edmonds - so I might ask if the museum there has further details :-)
How usual was it for a regiment to be split up for several years?. Its major-general Grant actually died in 1841 en route from Glasgow to Dublin, at Tontine Inn
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Thank you Clemens for filling in some of my gaps.
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Hi, first time on this forum, so reason for joining is that I'm trying to find another example of this 58th Regiment badge. This was found about 15 years ago on a New Zealand (Wellington) battle site, the service number scratched on the back was to a 58th Regt Soldier 454 James Conner who drowned one week after the battle in a local river. The battle was in August 1846. So I'm trying to identify what type of badge it is, so far all museums and militaria badge forums confirm it is a very early 58th Regiment badge but can't state if it is a Cap, Pouch, Belt Locket or Shoulder Belt Badge or provide evidence of a reference or another example, can anyone help? Thanks
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Hello I am coming late to the sharing of information about the 58th regiment of foot - an ancestor was a private (a tailor not a so much a fighter). I've got goodish information from Find my past about his pension records but struggling to work out where he was when. He joined in 1833 and was discharged on medical grounds in 1853 (in Sydney), having served in Ceylon, New South Wales and New Zealand. What I really want to find out is where he would have been in 1842 when his daughter (my direct ancestor) was born, I've checked every possible permutation of name in Scotland, Ireland, England, New South Wales and New Zealand for her birth record to no avail and nor have I been able to find a marriage certificate. I've been reading through all the years of discussion about this regiment in the forum - still a little confused about where they were immediately before (in case that is where a marriage took place) and after Edinburgh when a birth took place. Any suggestions would be most gratefully received. Thanks DH
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Obviously we don't know for certain exactly where your ancestor was, but assuming that he was with his battalion (and was not, for instance, at the regimental depot or attending a course at the School of Musketry etc) then he would have been in Ireland, and specifically Dublin, throughout the period October 1841 to some point in November 1842. From 10 December 1842 the battalion is based in Chatham, where they remained throughout 1843. This information comes from the monthly reports in the British newspapers entitled "Stations of the British Army". I believe these newspaper reports were in turn based similar reports which appear in the London Gazette and so were authoritative because they were officially released by the Army Headquarters at Horse Guards.
One newspaper report for 1 August 1842 also mentions Cork and Drogheda in connection with the 58th, so it seems possible there were detachments from the regiment in these places, if not permanently, then at least periodically.
It is worth noting that there appears to be a possible error for the reporting in September 1842. At least two newspapers report that the Battalion was in Manchester, yet it is once more in Dublin in October and November. I have no real explanation for this anomaly, but I feel sure that the whole battalion would not have packed up and moved across the Irish Sea just for one month, especially as they were due to move to Chatham at the end of November.
If you would like to search for earlier in 1841 when his daughter may have been conceived (arguably he didn't need to present for the birth but he did for the conception) then use either the British Newspaper Archive or the FindMyPast websites to search using the words "Stations of the British Army" and limit the search to the months or years you are interested in. Don't specify a particular newspaper or region. You will find results from several local and national newspapers, which generally all contain the same information, albeit they may publish it on different dates.
Assuming the daughter was born in Ireland, remember that civil registration there did not begin until 1845 and that a lot of Church of Ireland records for the period before civil registration were destroyed in a fire at the Public Record Office in Dublin in 1922.
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My ancestor Jeremiah Carey joined the 58th in 1832. He was also in Ceylon, NSW and NZ. He had a son in 1842 who was baptized in Dublin. Below is his information. This was found in the record set "Ireland, Catholic Parish Registers, 1655-1915".
Name John Alexander Carey
Baptism Age 0
Event Type Baptism
Birth Date 1842
Baptism Date 27 Mar 1842
Baptism Place St Paul's, Dublin city, Dublin, Ireland
Parish Variants Arran Quay, Old Glasnevin, St. Paul's, Arran Quay
Diocese Dublin
Father Jeremiah Carey
Mother Margaret McKenna
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Thanks for your prompt replies to my query - this all does add up well the Dublin connection with the name of his wife (a very Irish name) appearing much later in Australia on a marriage certificate for a daughter - probably the sibling of my direct ancestor - but I'm yet to verify that. And yes the records for my ancestor's birth may well no longer exist, but I might get lucky! I have another more general question, did wives travel with husbands who were with 58th Regiment of Foot? I guess it is possible my ancestor married in Dublin but his daughter was born at sea - I am unsure of the travel arrangements for wives. Did they usually stay at home? Did they travel with their husband, or later join them and given that this ancestral group all ended up settling in districts to the west of Sydney in Australia, any suggestions as to whether the army was involved in the transporting of families or did they travel as assisted or unassisted migrants making their own way on whatever ship was most convenient? It must have been a very hard life - all that sea travel in those days on board convict transports, several times. No wonder so many were discharged due to medical grounds - my ancestor was described as 'indifferent' in character in his discharge examination - maybe he was just sick and totally worn out!
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Jeremiah's wife did travel with him and is even listed in the surgeon's report because she fell during the voyage. It seems like many of them came as a family (I believe there was a lottery). By the way, Jeremiah's wife was Margaret McKinnon (maiden name) but you can see it was spelled McKenna. They were married in Edinburgh where they meet in 1841 and his occupation was laborer but he was a soldier. She lived in the same building where he was housed during his time guarding Edinburgh Castle. I would think if she was born at sea and you know the ship they came out on it would be in the surgeon's report. Mine came out to NSW on the Orator in 1843.
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The Northamptonshire Regt Regimental Histories have a large section on the 2nd bn, the 58th.
Also there is a very good book on the bn in New Zealand
History of the 58th Regiment (the Rutlandshire Regiment of Foot) which Served in New Zealand Between 1845 and 1858
By Russell Gurney · 1935
Sadly its one of the x3 Regimental Histories that I dont have ( i have about 40 others!)
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Hello again thanks for your interest in my questions - I am not sure how to find which ships my ancestor who was in the 58th would have sailed on - from what I've seen as he was only a private, it seems those at that rank aren't always listed by name. I have found all of his pension records on Ancestry from the National Archives UK but if you know of a source for looking into which ships he might have been on that would be great. Many thanks again.
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Hello again thanks for your interest in my questions - I am not sure how to find which ships my ancestor who was in the 58th would have sailed on - from what I've seen as he was only a private, it seems those at that rank aren't always listed by name. I have found all of his pension records on Ancestry from the National Archives UK but if you know of a source for looking into which ships he might have been on that would be great. Many thanks again.
the above book lists the ships and even in a worse case scenario you will narrow it down to one or two....The book is ONLY for between 45 and 58...
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Here is a sample section of the book scrimnet noted including my ancestor. If you are in New Zealand or Australia this is probably a reference book and you can call and have them check the name of your ancestor and send a scan of the page. Most libraries offer this for free. They can also copy the page with all of the abbreviations for the ship names so you can pinpoint the full name of the ship.
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I'll try to source that book