RootsChat.Com
Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Aberdeenshire => Topic started by: Bilcor1 on Sunday 30 May 10 15:13 BST (UK)
-
Any info on 3 Spanish wrecks between Colliston and Peterhead
Santa Catarina sunk at Colliston [hence Catherines Dub] heard of 1 off Boddam and 1 at Keith Inch
Bilcor1
-
You don't say what dates they happened, but you could try getting hold of a copy of the book Shipwrecks of North East Scotland, 1444-1990 by David M. Ferguson. Your local library might have it, or you can purchase copies online from various booksellers.
-
I don't know if it qualifies as a 'Spanish' ship but there was the Sancta Marie. Although it was travelling back from Spain it's home port was Lubeck. Taken by privateers they crashed into the coast in bad weather attempting to reach Leith.
S_L
-
Sorry for not replying quicker
Went to Peterhead Library got info on David M Ferguson's book onlyhas few lines on ship wreck at St Catherines Dub which is Santa Catharina also spoke briefly to local diver who was at wreck site
and says in the 60s they formed local diving club and discovered a wreck of Spanish galleon near Skerry Rock at Boddam he says the name was San Michael
The anchor they took up is now at front of Peterhead Library and the chains were exactly the same as mooring chains at Boddam harbour
He says it was all verifyed by person in London
Also reckons the survivors were the Stephens and Cordiners of Boddam and they had photo taken with a lady in Colliston whose forefathers were Philips from the Santa Catharina
-
I am researching my mother's family and have family names Stephen and Cordiner. Is there proof of a shipwreck off the coast of Boddam.
Was told by a resident of boddam there were 3 Spanish ships scuttled by the sailors who were saved from the English by Scots hiding them in there homes
The sailors settled in boddam and the surnames Stephen and Cordiner were originally Spanish
-
the surnames Stephen and Cordiner were originally Spanish
The name Cordiner is a variant of the rather archaic word 'cordwainer', which described a person, usually a shoemaker, who worked with soft leather. This is in turn derived from Cordoba in Spain, because that was where soft goatskin leather suitable for fine shoes came from. So yes, the name Cordiner has a Spanish root, but as far as I am aware its use as a surname did not originate in Spain.
Stephen, however, comes from Greek. Stephanos was said to be the first Christian martyr, and the name came to Britain, and in particular to Scotland, with the Normans. The fourth king of England after the Norman conquest was Stephen, who reigned in the 12th century. It occurs as a surname in Scotland in the 13th century.
It may be true that there are descendants of wrecked Spaniards in Boddam who bear the names Stephen and Cordiner, but those names are not reliably indicative of Spanish descent. I don't know enough about Spanish surnames to know whether either surname ever occurs in Spain. The Spanish equivalent of Stephen is Esteban.
-
There are similar stories in Easter Ross concerning families supposedly with a Spanish origin & even folk called Paterson apparently descended from a seal! ;D
Skoosh.
-
Yes, there are many stories of alleged Spanish ancestors in the east-coast fishing villages. Some people think the Gosmans of my native East Neuk of Fife are descended from a wrecked Spanish sailor called Guzman. There is of course no proof of any of these stories, and surnames like Gosman, Stephen and Cordiner have been around in Scotland since long before the Spanish Armada.
On a more practical level, I know of a Mary Jean Cordiner from Boddam who married Peter Smith, known as "Poetry Peter", the fisherman-poet of Cellardyke (by Anstruther). I can't check the date of their marriage as Scotlandspeople is down, but Peter was born in 1874, and Mary Jean shows up in the 1901 census of Cellardyke, as a "visitor" with a family of Murrays, aged 22. The son of Peter Smith and Mary Jean Cordiner was a teacher at my old school in Anstruther in the 1960s and after retirement wrote several books about the local fishing industry.
Harry
-
just joining the thread as it came up in a search.
I have Cordiner, Stephen (and Steven) in my Boddam/Peterhead families. I am interested in the story of the possible connections to the Spanish wrecks as it might explain some of my unusually placed DNA matches.
Margaret
-
Dear All,
..... The Santa Catherina was NOT an Armada ship when it sank. It was gun-running to the Earl of Errol about ten years after the Armada when it foundered.
..... My family (on my Mother's side) also has the names Hawthorn, Cordiner, Philips, Stephen and Hawthorn in our ancestry. Our family also has the word of mouth tradition that the Cordiners, Philips' and Stephens were att survivors of the shipwreck of the Spanish ship, the Santa Catherina.
..... As they were gun-running to the Earl of Errol, the Earl's men did their best to help the survivors of the wreck, who then settled in the Boddam area. The tradition goes that the Spanish names were Anglicised (Scotticised?) so became names that were already known elsewhere. The Cordiners were said to have either come from Cordoba, or been known as "Cordobas" before the Anglicisation of the surname.
..... I wonder if the Spanish authorities might have any surviving crew or embarkation lists from 1598 (or so) or even a record of which port the Santa Catherina sailed from? I have no idea as to how to search for this.
..... There was also another ship which foundered near to Boddam. It was the San Miguel which was a Portuguese ship and it would be very easy for family traditions to become distorted and mix up the ships over the intervening 500 years. As far as I know, there isn't a St. Michael's Dub, but there is a St. Catherine's Dub, which would help memory and tradition to be maintained (or distorted).
..... If there are any Family Historians reading this, who are descended from the Cordiners, Hawthorns, Philips' or Stephens from the Boddam and Peterhead area of Aberdeenshire, Scotland, I would be most pleased to hear from them. We could perhaps exchange family trees.
..... Regards, Adrian Hanwell, Scarborough, Yorkshire.
I am the only person with this surname in my area telephone directory.
-
..... Oops! Correction.
- - - -
The Santa Catherina foundered on the Aberdeenshire coast in about 1598 (as stated) but the Spanish Armada sailed in 1588 and not 1598. This error was caused by brain failure. Sorry.
..... Regards, Adrian.
-
Hi Adrian
I have the names Sellar, Stephen and Cordiner in the Bruce/King/Butters branch of my tree in Peterhead/Boddam.
The Stephen and Cordiner men were fishermen in Boddam, but the Peterhead men who were not seamen were shoemakers and leather workers. I am working with a close DNA match to connect my family tree to hers which includes many Cordiner families. I understand the name Sellar derives from saddler. In my main line, my 5th g grandmother Jean Sellar b. 1753 in Peterhead, married Alexander Bruce b. 1751 Peterhead, a shoemaker. The Bruce and King family included many seamen and also merchants with links to many countries.
I am also intrigued to find I have distant DNA matches that include people born in and in some cases still living in the Portugese mainland and Azores in their trees, in three cases the family remain in Portugal/Azores, in other cases they are emigrants to USA and Nova Scotia. There are 8 of these matches altogether and I was surprised by that. I am learning that a seaport like Peterhead attracts seafarers from all over, but this DNA connection may reflect the result of the inclusion of the Portugese and Spanish sailors in the gene pool of Peterhead and Boddam..
I am about 3/4 Scottish descent and live in Australia. My 2x g grandfather Alexander Butters emigrated to Australia from Peterhead in 1854, we believe he deserted from the Merchant Navy to go to the goldfields. My Ancestry ethnicity estimate has given me 6% Scandinavian and 2% Iberian Peninsular. I have Rh negative blood. All this makes a connection to Spanish and Portugese seamen quite possible.
My family tree is still evolving on Ancestry
Harris/Wells Family Tree
cheers
Margaret Stebbing, Melbourne, Australia
-
Dear Margaret,
..... Thanks for your message. I have taken an Ancestry DNA test and seem to remember seeing the name Stebbing as one of my distant matches, but I have not got around to contacting any of those distant matches as yet. I will need to re-visit the website.
..... I tried to attach a couple of my family trees to this message, but the website will only accept txt, rtf, jpg, jpeg, gif, pdf, mpg, png and ged attachments. I started my genealogy research long before any of these were available and put my first trees onto Lotus 123 version one, when it became available. I have updated the spreadsheets over the years and they are currently on Microsoft Excel spreadsheets, which are not on the list.
..... I do not know if these RootsChat.com messages are public or private, so I do not want to publicise my e-mail address, but I live in Scarborough, Yorkshire, England and I am the only person in this town with my surname. If you phone me, I will quickly give you my e-mail address and I can reply to you with the Hawthorn, Cordiner and other family trees attached if you message me using it.
..... Regards, Adrian Hanwell.
-
Once both of you have posted at least three times here, you can use the Personal Message (PM) facility to email each other privately.
Harry
-
Dear Harry,
..... Thank you for that information, it is good to know. This message will be my third posting.
Regards, Adrian.
-
Yes. thanks Harry. DNA analysis has revealed more questions than it answered for me. SO many DNA connections that are difficult to explain. I have matches with entirely Norwegian born people in the tree - I guess a family of sailors from North East Scotland have connections in many ports. THe stories of the Spanish Armada taking the long way home abound. is there any truth in that?
-
Everybody who tests their DNA finds that the results pose more questions than they answer. A lot of British men have Y DNA from Iberia, but we are told that there was immigration into Britain from Iberia thousands of years ago, at the end of the last ice age. DNA changes very slowly if at all, so many of us with ancestry going back thousands of years in Britain will still have DNA similar to modern Spanish and Portuguese men. It doesn't mean we had forebears who sailed with the Spanish Armada, it's older than that. My own Y DNA is supposed to be 11% Iberian, and I'm Scottish/Northern Irish/English for hundreds of years back with no foreign input.
But the testing agencies keep changing the goalposts. Originally I was 32% West and Central European and 5% Finland and North Siberia, then that disappeared and I became 33% Scandinavian and 11% Iberian. I wish they would explain how they arrive at these results.
Harry
-
There is also a story about the origins of the Scottish people that says they were never English, migrated from the Caucuses and the Mediterranean and Iberian Peninsula, the pIllars of Hercules (straits of Gilbralta) and Ireland to Scotland from there. Now where is that message link?
-
Earlier this century I came into contact with a couple of am. researchers following the same Shirras of Aberdeen line as my late OH. Both of them had a handed down story of an earlier generation being a shipwrecked sailor on the Spanish Armada. I had to tell them that their family story hadn't been passed down in my brother-in-law's branch. The only story he had was when an old aunt gave him the family bible and said there had been a sheriff of Aberdeen amongst the ancestors - I havent had a sniff of him if that was the case.
-
Dear Sir or Madam,
..... Thanks for that response. The Spanish Shipwreck story is common around Boddam where the Cordiners, Philips and Stevens families predominate. Research suggests that even in Scotland, there was little sympathy for Spanish sailors at the time of the Armada, but the gun-running story and the later date for the sinking of the Santa Catherina (Santa Caterina) all fit in with the story of the sailors being saved and homed by the locals.
..... Regards, Adrian.
-
One of the most famous episodes in the history of Anstruther in Fife is the arrival in the harbour, one day in 1588, of a shipful of survivors from the Spanish Armada, "for the maist part young berdles men, sillie, trauchled, and houngered", as the Rev. James Melville wrote in his Diary and Autobiography, which was published in 1842. The sailors were given "keall, pattage and fische" and patched up until they were fit to return home. This compared favourably with other parts of the British Isles where Spanish sailors coming ashore were set upon and murdered.
The Anstruther people's kindness was repaid some time later when the Spanish captain Juan Gomez de Medina intervened to rescue some Anstruther seamen imprisoned in the port of Calais and arranged for them to be sent home.
One day in 1984 a group of Spaniards from the "Tercio Viejo Del Mar Oceano", the Ancient Order of the Ocean Sea, renacted the arrival of the Armada survivors at the harbour of Anstruther, clad in uniforms and with weapons of the period.
What neither Melville nor anyone else ever suggested was that any of those Spaniards from 1588 remained behind in Fife!
Harry
-
James VI had shipwrecked Spanish sailors sent home, probably to the Spanish Netherlands!
-
Dear Rena / Harry,
..... Many thanks for that information.
All such information adds to the picture. Thanks again.
..... Regards, Adrian.
-
Dear Skoosh,
..... Many thanks for that information also. It arrived whilst I was typing my previous reply.
As I said previously, all such information adds to the picture. Thanks again.
..... Regards, Adrian.
-
Dear All,
..... The big difference between the Spanish Armada sailors, most other foreign sailors and the Santa Caterina crew would have been the need for the Earl of Errol's men to help their gun-running Spanish allies and to conceal their activities from the authorities.
..... With normal enemies, the populus would simply either, kill them, or arrest them and pass them on to the authorities. With gun-running allies, you would need to rescue them, then share them amongst the population who could feed them and conceal them. Young Spanish Sailors would then make friendships with young local ladies with the inevitable results.
..... Ten years after the Armada, it would be almost impossible to send Spanish sailors home by legal means. Even getting a message to the Spanish authorities asking them to come and collect their people would be difficult and transporting the men home would be incredibly risky, as no British ship would want try to sail into a Spanish port. I imagine that most crew members got home eventually, but the long delays and relationship developments probably caused some crew members (Mr. Cordiner, Mr. Philips and Mr. Stephen?) to stay in Aberdeenshire. Even the Armada origin myth probably dated from the very early days, as this would be the easiest way to explain why Spanish men were living in Aberdeenshire.
..... Regards, Adrian.
-
..... Ten years after the Armada, it would be almost impossible to send Spanish sailors home by legal means. Even getting a message to the Spanish authorities asking them to come and collect their people would be difficult and transporting the men home would be incredibly risky, as no British ship would want try to sail into a Spanish port.
Are you forgetting that this is before the Union of the Crowns (1630) and well before the Union of Parliaments (1707) and that there was no such thing as a 'British' ship? The Armada set out to attack England, and it's not inconceivable that there were some Scots who would have seen aiding stray enemies of the Auld Enemy as a Good Thing.
-
Quite right, but the Union of the Crowns was 1603, not 1630.
Harry
-
Dear Forfarian,
..... Yes, you are right. Whilst I know my history, all my Genealogy research post-dates the Union of Crowns, so this fact had not entered my head. From what I have read, many Armada survivors were slaughtered when they reached Scottish shores, so I had not given it sufficient thought. Thanks for bring this to my attention. I do tend to use modern terms when referring to land areas, rather that period terms, so I did intend to use the term British Isles, meaning England, Scotland and Ireland.
..... Regards, Adrian.
-
Quite right, but the Union of the Crowns was 1603, not 1630.
Harry
Correct. That was a typo - I know perfectly well that it was 1603. :-[
-
Where's the evidence for Spanish sailors being slaughtered in Scotland? they were slaughtered by English troops in Ireland. The Tobermory galleon was sunk up when its magazine exploded but not quite the same thing!
The same story about Spanish sailors occurs on Fair Isle where the knitting pattern supposedly comes from that source, who knows?
Skoosh.
-
I suppose the Jimmy Perez stories by Ann Cleeves which are now being televised will lend credence to stories of Armada sailors staying on in Scotland. An author must be allowed to use his/her imagination, but a grumpy old pedant like me will always find fault!
Harry
-
I have matches with entirely Norwegian born people in the tree - I guess a family of sailors from North East Scotland have connections in many ports.
Same here. We have direct ancestors from Dundee who were sailors in the 18th century and from Peterhead who were sailors in the 19th century, plus brothers, uncles and cousins from those eras who were sailors or had an interest in ships from Dundee, Peterhead and Fife. One document relating to an ancestor which a relative has found was witnessed by a Scotsman in Stockholm in the early 1700s.
Very few of the Scandinavian matches we're getting are very close though. The shared segments are usually fairly small.
-
I like that the history of my family is so much more complex than my childhood history books would suggest. I also like that there are other family historians who can see beyond the census data to understand the family members in their place. In school in Australia we learned little of this - thinking of our family heritage as mono cultural. My Peterhead families have ended up all over he world, and this is not surprising given their long association with trading and the ancient sea routes, and the cultures that shaped them. SO how does a Scottish lassie in Peterhead get to have a name like Sophia Cordiner? Surely there is some truth in those romantic rumours. I am currently reading an excellent book - The Edge of the World: How the North Sea made us what we are, author Michael Pye. When you think of the world as a sea with little bits of land in it rather than the other way around, it changes your perspective on what was possible over time.
-
I don't want to rain on your parade, but Cordiner is an occupational surname like Taylor, Mason, Fisher, Baker/Baxter and so on, and Sophia was by no means an unusual name in the fishing ports. In my native East Neuk of Fife the women in the fishing communities weren't all Jessies and Jeanies, they might be called Sophia, Rachel, Amelia, Penelope, Charlotte, all kinds of names we might now consider "posh". There was nothing posh about Penelope Barclay in my native Cellardyke who one night when she was drunk threw a dinner plate at her husband Alexander Smith, severing an artery in his temple and nearly killing him. She was tried at Cupar sheriff court and sentenced to several weeks in jail.
Harry
-
The surname Cordiner is from the occupation of cordwainer, which was someone who worked with soft (Cordoban style) leather. A maker of soft shoes as opposed to one who made boots or shoes of heavier leather.
-
To the previous posters, you are correct. I am not offended by confirmation of the occupational names. However, none of that confirms or excludes the possibility of the arrival in Peterhead of seamen of Iberian extraction to add to the long term families there. My % of genetic heritage from Iberian peninuslar has to come from some kind of interaction across the waters. Our Cordiners in Peterhead were leather shoe makers and also fishermen, and they originated in the fishing village Boddam. In Scottish tradition there is a naming pattern that keeps names revolving through families across the generations. It is helpful when doing genealogy research because once you know the given name of the first daughter you also can reliably guess the name of the maternal grandmother.Sophia is a very unusual name for families in Peterhead, and as far as I can see reserved only for the fishing families.
-
Which company did you test with that is giving you this Iberian, and what is the percentage?
Are you on Gedmatch?
-
These Spaniards must have been busy, the same stories are told in the Seaboard villages of Easter Ross.
Anent the name Sophia, probably from the grand-daughter of James VI, daughter of the Winter Queen & ancestress of the present royal house! See the popularity in Scotland of the names George, Albert & Victoria! Check also the family names of the laird of this fishing community & who did he marry, minister ditto!
Skoosh.
-
Anent the name Sophia, probably from the grand-daughter of James VI, daughter of the Winter Queen & ancestress of the present royal house!
Hmmmm. Sophia, wife of the Elector of Hanover, born 1630, died 1714, only weeks before she would have succeeded to the united crowns of Scotland, England and Ireland.
SP has 14 Sophias in the OPRs before 1630, and 710 between 1630 and 1714. Some may have been named for the daughter of the Winter King and Queen of Bohemia, but I wonder just how many people in Scotland had actually heard of Sophia before the act of Parliament that made her the heiress to the crown?
-
To the previous posters, you are correct. I am not offended by confirmation of the occupational names. However, none of that confirms or excludes the possibility of the arrival in Peterhead of seamen of Iberian extraction to add to the long term families there. My % of genetic heritage from Iberian peninuslar has to come from some kind of interaction across the waters. Our Cordiners in Peterhead were leather shoe makers and also fishermen, and they originated in the fishing village Boddam. In Scottish tradition there is a naming pattern that keeps names revolving through families across the generations. It is helpful when doing genealogy research because once you know the given name of the first daughter you also can reliably guess the name of the maternal grandmother.Sophia is a very unusual name for families in Peterhead, and as far as I can see reserved only for the fishing families.
It's beginning to sound very much as if you are related to my late friend Peter Smith of Cellardyke in Fife. Pete was a teacher at my secondary school when I was a pupil there, and when I came to write a book about the town he was very helpful to me. He wrote several books of his own about the local fishing industry. His father Peter Smith was our local bard, known as "Poetry Peter", and he was married to a Mary Jean Cordiner from Boddam.
Harry
-
Dear Gipsy Spirit,
..... My Great Grandparents William Cordiner and Sophia Stephen married on 15th October 1854, probably at Boddam. Please would you contact me by telephone and I will give you my e-mail address. I don't know how to send you a PRIVATE message. I live in Scarborough, Yorkshire, England and I am the only Hanwell in the area telephone directory. Once in email contact, I will happily send you a Microsoft Excel spreadsheet with my branch of the Cordiner family on it. All originated from the Boddam / Peterhead area of Aberdeenshire, Scotland.
..... Regards, Adrian Hanwell.
-
Which company did you test with that is giving you this Iberian, and what is the percentage?
Ethnicity Estimate: Primarily Great Britain. 6% Scandinavian, 2% Iberian Peninsula 2% Europe West 1% Finland.
I tested with Ancestry and uploaded to both FTDNA and GEDMatch. Yes the different companies use different algorithms and any matching and heritage results are just estimates. In the end I am pleased to make contacts and find further evidence to support the detail in my family tree. Margaret
-
@ FF, Sophia wasn't just some unknown German princess, she was at one time to have been married off to her cousin Charles II but she gave him the brush-off. This marriage, had it happened, would have secured the Protestant Succession, kept a Stewart on the throne & saved Scotland the misery of successive Jacobite Rebellions. Why would the common people not know the runners & riders of the Stewart Succession, they had just experienced the carnage of a Civil War whose loss of life in Scotland would not be experience again until the Great War. Who sat on the throne? affected every house in the country, from who their local laird would be, to who preached in the pulpit in the local kirk & whether or not they would be compelled to take up arms.
People who were familiar with the Bible were quite capable of understanding the complexity of what was to be the hot topic for over a century & beyond.
Skoosh.
Skoosh.
-
I don't know how to send you a PRIVATE message.
Find the icon that looks ike a scroll beneath gypsyspirit's name and this will open the private messaging screen.
-
People who were familiar with the Bible were quite capable of understanding the complexity of what was to be the hot topic for over a century & beyond.
Maybe they were, maybe some of them were not, but the succession didn't become a hot topic until about the 1680s when James VII turned Roman Catholic, and there were certainly Sophias before then, so the name, while unusual, pre-dates Princess Sophia.
-
These Spaniards must have been busy, the same stories are told in the Seaboard villages of Easter Ross.
Anent the name Sophia, probably from the grand-daughter of James VI, daughter of the Winter Queen & ancestress of the present royal house! See the popularity in Scotland of the names George, Albert & Victoria! Check also the family names of the laird of this fishing community & who did he marry, minister ditto!
Skoosh.
That's my thinking too. My grandmother Edith Sophia b1884 was given her Hanoverian grandmother's name Sophia (b1824) and her Hanovarian gr/mother was named Marie Charlotte (Mary Queen of Scots/Charlotte of England?). I've found that in general there's an awful lot of babies given the same name as the then current favourite royal, whether it's the arrival of a new baby prince(ess) (e.g. Sophia), a new queen (such as Willm & Charlotte) or a newly crowned king, the country's Saint, or a popular local lord, actor/baird, etc.
In one of my lines I've got back to Huntingdonshire in the late 1500s with a father who had the given name of Radulphi/Randolph. There's an online book "Names and Naming Patterns in England 1538-1700", which suggests "Randolph" became popular due to an Earl Of Chester named Randolph. Question Mark: did that line of my family originate in the county of Chester and not Hunts?
-
SP has 14 Sophias in the OPRs before 1630, and 710 between 1630 and 1714. Some may have been named for the daughter of the Winter King and Queen of Bohemia, but I wonder just how many people in Scotland had actually heard of Sophia before the act of Parliament that made her the heiress to the crown?
I think we need to take into account the thousands of boats and ships manned by ordinary people plying between tiny harbours of Britain and the mainland. Even though they didn't have the internet I think word by mouth would have spread from the coast to the hinterland via traders, messengers and church congregations, etc.
-
The Succession, both in Scotland & England has always been a "Hot Topic!" What were the Wars of the Roses & the tribulations of the Tudors. The murders of James I & James III plus the forced abdication of Mary, but succession disputes? Who succeeded to property, whether a kingdom an earldom or a farm has always been a hot-topic and genealogy an abiding interest, hence this website! There are Gaels living now who can recite their pedigree back 300 years.
Skoosh.
-
Which company did you test with that is giving you this Iberian, and what is the percentage?
Ethnicity Estimate: Primarily Great Britain. 6% Scandinavian, 2% Iberian Peninsula 2% Europe West 1% Finland.
I tested with Ancestry and uploaded to both FTDNA and GEDMatch. Yes the different companies use different algorithms and any matching and heritage results are just estimates. In the end I am pleased to make contacts and find further evidence to support the detail in my family tree. Margaret
2% is a Low Confidence region. I have no idea how many people with British ancestry get some Iberian but low percentages may well be very common. I can see some ( as a Low Confidence region) in the one kit I manage at Ancestry, but they have Peterhead ancestry. No Cordiners that we know of yet.
-
My Grandmother was Margaret Phillips of Old Castle Slains, daughter of George Phillips Old Castle. The story of being descended from a Spaniard called Phillipe washed ashore from the Santa Catalena has been passed down in our family.
-
These Spaniards must have been busy, the same stories are told in the Seaboard villages of Easter Ross.
Anent the name Sophia, probably from the grand-daughter of James VI, daughter of the Winter Queen & ancestress of the present royal house! See the popularity in Scotland of the names George, Albert & Victoria! Check also the family names of the laird of this fishing community & who did he marry, minister ditto!
Skoosh.
That's my thinking too. My grandmother Edith Sophia b1884 was given her Hanoverian grandmother's name Sophia (b1824) and her Hanovarian gr/mother was named Marie Charlotte (Mary Queen of Scots/Charlotte of England?). I've found that in general there's an awful lot of babies given the same name as the then current favourite royal, whether it's the arrival of a new baby prince(ess) (e.g. Sophia), a new queen (such as Willm & Charlotte) or a newly crowned king, the country's Saint, or a popular local lord, actor/baird, etc.
In one of my lines I've got back to Huntingdonshire in the late 1500s with a father who had the given name of Radulphi/Randolph. There's an online book "Names and Naming Patterns in England 1538-1700", which suggests "Randolph" became popular due to an Earl Of Chester named Randolph. Question Mark: did that line of my family originate in the county of Chester and not Hunts?
A lot of girls were called after the popular Duchess of Kent, Marina, in the 1930s.
Harry
-
My Grandmother was Margaret Phillips of Old Castle Slains, daughter of George Phillips Old Castle. The story of being descended from a Spaniard called Phillipe washed ashore from the Santa Catalena has been passed down in our family.
The well-known St. Monans (Fife) boatbuilding family of Miller have Phillips in their family-tree. I quote from a little book by a member of the family now living in New Zealand -
"... my father's maternal grandparents, who came in the eighteen hundreds to Scotland from Brittany, settled at first in Dunbar and then came over the Forth to St. Monans. Their French name was Felipe, but it was anglicized to Phillips."
Harry
-
I have a lot of information on the Phillips of Old Slains, but nothing to indicate they were in St Monans. However, as they were mostly fishermen, it is possible one married there as it was a fairly transient occupation.
-
You said your Phillips ancestors were Spanish, but the St. Monans Phillips claimed Breton ancestry, so there's not necessarily a connection.
Harry
-
Which company did you test with that is giving you this Iberian, and what is the percentage?
Ethnicity Estimate: Primarily Great Britain. 6% Scandinavian, 2% Iberian Peninsula 2% Europe West 1% Finland.
I tested with Ancestry and uploaded to both FTDNA and GEDMatch. Yes the different companies use different algorithms and any matching and heritage results are just estimates. In the end I am pleased to make contacts and find further evidence to support the detail in my family tree. Margaret
It's great fun testing with different agencies and comparing the results. I posted my FTDNA results a few pages back. I now have results from MyHeritage which make me feel quite exotic -
Irish, Scottish & Welsh (i.e. Celtic) 60.2%
Scandinavian 19.3%
Finnish 4.9%
Iberian 6.8%
Italian 2.1%
Baltic 4.7%
Nigerian 1%
North African 1%
Bear in mind that my parents were fishermen's offspring from adjacent villages in the East Neuk of Fife. I've traced both sides of my family back for hundreds of years and the most exotic ancestors, for a Fifer like me, came from Northumberland and Northern Ireland.
But I'm impressed by MyHeritage. One of my first matches turned out to be the daughter of one of my 2nd cousins. But she was eclipsed by a match I got the other day, who shared 7.5% of my DNA, 544.1cM, 22 shared segments out of 23 - and he is the grandson of my long-lost uncle Eck who settled in Hartlepool in Co. Durham and had 6 children, about whom I knew nothing.
Harry
-
Thank you for the information, our Phillips were all based in Warwickshire and Birmingham in particular we're back to the mid 1700's who knows where they originated from.
We have been really lucky with one of dad's lines and have been in contact with a lady who's ancestor was the sister of our great, great grandmother. She sent a photo of a christening party, the sister's on the photo and she definitely resembles our grandad and great uncle........ All thanks to a DNA result.
-
I had a neighbour who lived in Edinburgh but was from Anstruther in Fife. He was about mid 70s in the 1990s so may well have passed away by now. He looked a bit swarthy and could pass for Spanish and he had a Spanish surname, Montador. He said he was a descendant of an Armada survivor and that there were a few others with that name in Fife.
-
Hi Neal Hoy
Welcome to RootsChat :)
Just by chance there is a family tree for a Montador family from Fife here www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/2:1:M1CK-HBC Goes back to a Jean Baptiste Montador from France. Certainly the Montador name looks to have been in Fife for many years.
Monica
-
Thanks so much. So, maybe this man had got the wrong end of the stick as often happens with family legends. I shall look into this. Thank you again.
-
In case you get extra curious ::) there are quite a few researchers on this line such as here www.ancestry.com/boards/thread.aspx?mv=flat&m=557&p=localities.weurope.france.nord-pasdecalais Will give you additional info and details to support the tree on Family Search.
Monica
-
The Montadors came from Boulogne in northern France as did their relatives the Gen family. Both Montadors and Gens ended up living in my home town, Cellardyke. These families have been intensively researched by some of their descendants so their origins are beyond doubt. My information about the Montadors comes from one of their descendants in Australia. Mind you, although the Montadors lived in Boulogne, their surname does indeed look Spanish so maybe their ultimate origins were more exotic.
Harry
-
Christian Montador (About 1850 France - 1913 Ontario, Canada) married one of my distant cousins, David Harvie Colquhoun (1849 Paisley - 1928 Ontario, Canada). My research so far seems to indicate that the Montadors came from the Northern coast of France/Belgium, however, they could indeed have come from much further away.
-
I'm a Cordiner from Boddam, well my Dad, Robert was brought up there. He died last year and it was a story that we were direct descendants of the Santa Catherina. Beyond this, I have no idea if true, but apparently it is.
Apologies I've not read the entire thread, but this did catch my interest as it supports the family yarn, it would be interesting to know for sure.
-
Cordiner = shoemaker!
Skoosh.
-
Cordiner = shoemaker!
Spot on. The detailed origin of the word is interesting.
Cordiner is from an older word, cordwainer. A cordwainer worked specifically with soft, fine, high-quality leather, known as Cordovan leather because that was where it was produced.
In Scotland a cordwainer wasn't just a common-or-garden shoemaker. His products were considered to be a cut above everyday boots or brogues.
In 1722 the cordiners of Hawick petitioned the council to be incorporated and separated from the shoe-makers ‘or those who make single-soled shoes'. In Edinburgh, the cordiners were erected into a fraternity in 1349.
However the word is documented in Scotland almost 100 years before the Armada, and there is a record of its use as a surname as early as 1422, when Thomas Cordonar was admitted a burgess of Aberdeen. A Radulph Cordwan was a tenant in Perth in about 1330 though this may just indicate that he was a native or Cordoba rather than actually using it as a surname.
-
I know there is a separate discussion for this, but does anyone in this one know anything about the tradition that the village of Avoch on the Black Isle was founded by the survivors of a wreck from the Spanish Armada ? I am looking for historic references to this tradition but can only find modern books that mention it.
I believe that I have traced my direct male ancestry back to an Alexr Munro born in the parish of Avoch in 1739. Further to this, having taken part in Y-DNA testing with FTDNA, of my 7 closest DNA matches in the direct male line, (who are all at the 23/25 marker level for anyone who knows about that), one of these matches has the Spanish surname of Bustamante. Three others have the French surname Runyon, two the Scottish surname Munro and one the Scottish/Irish surname McBride. They should all be people related within the last 700 years at least.
The rest of my 1000+ Y-DNA matches are all at the 12 marker level and so can pretty much be disregarded as useful for genealogy purposes, as not being related within the last 1000 years or even related at all.
-
According to the Wikipedia article, a Munro actually owned the village at one time.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avoch
If Spaniards had founded it they wouldn't have given it a Gaelic name. The Armada was in 1588 but Avoch obviously existed in some form long before that.
My wife and I had a holiday there back in 1973, shortly after we got married. I had never heard of the place before. I had just started a new job, one of my new colleagues had planned a holiday in Avoch with an old friend and his wife but at the last minute this couple couldn't go, so my wife and I got the offer to go instead. Having been brought up in the East Neuk of Fife in a family without a car, it was my introduction to the Highlands as we visited Culloden and Torridon and other places I would never have seen otherwise.
Harry
-
I've heard this Spanish stuff before in Easter Ross anent anybody who is a bit swarthy, as if Scotland was a nation of blue-eyed blondes, like masel. Mebbes I'm Swedish? ;D
The Vass's of course are Spanish, everybody knows that!
Skoosh.
-
According to the Wikipedia article, a Munro actually owned the village at one time.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avoch
If Spaniards had founded it they wouldn't have given it a Gaelic name. The Armada was in 1588 but Avoch obviously existed in some form long before that.
That shows that a Munro held the nearby Ormond Castle that later became known as Avoch Castle, but does not say anything about the village of Avoch itself at the time.