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Research in Other Countries => Australia => Topic started by: Appingirl on Saturday 05 June 10 07:20 BST (UK)
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HI I am looking for information on Michael Smith from Brushy Creek in Victoria. Wondered if anyone was searching same.
Michael was killed when he fell off a wagon and run over by the wheels and died in 1853? I will get back with more details later. He left behind a widow and six children.
C
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Hi I found exact date of death 13 Jan 1973. Unfortunately I do not know his wife's name or names of the all the children.
One of his children was James Smith m Mary Kelly 27/11/1872 he then m Catherine Donovan 18/2/1904.
James and Mary had three children, one James, and Margaret Mary who died aged 11 years.
I hope this is familiar to someone who can help with Michael's wife's name.
Thanks in anticipation
C
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This one -
Michael SMITH, died Brushy Creek 1873, aged 59, dray ran over him. (reg no. 59 inquest) Error- age 42, not 59.
The Argus, Saturday 18th January 1873, page 1s (supplement).
INQUEST.
Mr. Chandler, the district coroner, held an inquest on the 15th inst., at Brushy Creek, on the body of Michael Smith, aged 42 years a farmer living at Brushy Creek.
Deceased was with a man in his employ named Chas. Brunning, on the 13th inst., driving bullocks drawing two tons of bark, and between the Black Springs and the deceased's house Brunning went into a house leaving de- ceased sitting on the pole of the bullock- dray. Brunning came out a few minutes and found deceased lying dead on his face in the road. The wheel of the dray had passed over his back. Deceased was not intoxi-cated, and the road was a level one. Dr.Elmes, who examined the body externally, found a mark such as a wheel would make on the back. Several ribs were crushed in. Death appeared to have been caused by internal injuries such as pressure on the chest would produce. A verdict of acci-dental death was found.
http://newspapers.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/5846527/234503?zoomLevel=3#pstart234503
'Direct Link'.
Logan.
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Brushy Creek is part of the County of Evelyn. I searched for births at Evelyn found 1, this led to the following which seems to match the family re- location, 6 children, (1 had died), (No more children after 1873). (Not confirmed though)
Michael SMITH born, father Michael, mother Mary MCNAMARA,birth place Evel (Evelyn) in 1863 (#8731)
John SMITH born, father Michael, mother Mary MCNAMARA, at MOOR in 1863 (#2946)
James SMITH born at YERI in 1865 (#3161)
Thomas SMITH born LDALE (Lilydale) in 1866 (#22207)
Edward SMITH born MOOROOLBA in 1866 (#24224)
Edward Thomas SMITH born father same, mother recorded as Mary MCNAMARE, birth at LILY (Lilydale) in 1871 (#24204)
Patrick Daniel SMITH same details as line above, birth at LILY (Lilydale) in 1872 (#24215)
Death of baby Thomas looks as though he died at 2days of age, death 1866, father Michael, mother Mary U at MOOR (#10837).
Marriage of Michael SMITH to Mary MCNAMARA in 1861 (#1584)
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Logan what a Star thanks so so much, you have made my day.
I am listening to footy lol
Clare
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Could be either of the following -
Deaths
SMITH Michael
Father Michael Mother Mary
43 years Born Clare 1873 Reg#1451
SMITH Michael
Father Michael Mother Ann SCORER
42 years Born Tyrone 1873 Reg#9928
To be absolutely sure you would need to see his marriage certificate.
A couple of snippets
SMITH, Michael
Victorian Government Gazette Page#2158
17 November 1868
Place Mooroolbark No 958, Victoria
Gazette item sub title heading - Proposed School Committees
SMITH, Michael.
Victorian Government Gazette 31 Dec 1868 Pge 2512
Place - Mooroolbark No 958, Victoria
Gazette item sub title heading - School committee appointed
Cando
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Cando Thanks so much, gosh this is wonderful.
Clare
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thank you Logan
this man is my great grandfather. i am trying to trace them. it seems that would be the family. he did die in 1873 and had six children. i had thought not all boys as one in photo seems to have a coat type dress but must be a boy.
wonder if his wife Mary born in Clare would that be Ireland or Australia.
Michael smith also was on lilydale council. how would i find more about that?
thanks for your help. am very pleased with that No rag
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You might want to try search through these sites -
http://trove.nla.gov.au/
and
http://newspapers.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/home
http://www.access.prov.vic.gov.au/public/pathways/pathway1/pathway1.jsp
But here is where you are able to purchase the all important certificates (online also) for Victoria. The Births - Deaths and Marriages certificates. They provide guides also on how to go about it.
Glad to be of some help.
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Hi Norag
Welcome to rootschat :)
wonder if his wife Mary born in Clare would that be Ireland or Australia.
Norag
I would say Co Clare, Ireland.
It is mentioned in the news item that Michael was in the employ of a Charles BUNNING. I don't think a person was enfranchised to vote or be on a local council unless you were a property owner. Perhaps he owned his home.
Link to purchase online images of bdm certificates which you can immediately download. AUD$17.50 You need the surname, registration number and year and of course, your credit card ;D
https://online.justice.vic.gov.au/bdm/index-search?action=purchaseImage
Cheers
Cando
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This what you are after :)
The Argus 29th July 1870
UPPER YARRA DISTRICT ROAD BOARD.
South-Western Subdivision.
ANNUAL ORDINARY ELECTION.
I hereby give notice that an election will be held at the Brushy Creek Hotel, on the 11th day of August next, for the purpose of electing one member to fill the vacancy caused by the retirement of Michael Smith, Esq.
All CANDIDATES at such election must be NOMI-NATED In accordance with the terms of the Local Government Act, No. 176, SectionB 84 and 85.
ROBERT BLAIR, Returning Officer.
July 26 1870.
http://newspapers.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/5827172/227847?zoomLevel=3#pstart227847 (direct link)
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No Cando it was the other way around. Chas was his employee. That is stated in the argus newspaper report of the inquest. I also read in an article www.mbc.org.au/localhistory/display/command=display&id=7 Michael is referred to as : Well known and respected shire of lilydale member.
I thought i might come over from sa and visit lilydale to look up old council records etc
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Norag or Appingirl was wondering if Mary remarried, or anymore names we might be able 'winkle' out.
Thank you for your link Norag, amazing that it shows a picture of Michael with his bullocks and dray, (Appingirl if you have not seen, - under 'Pioneering life').
Logan.
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Apologies Norag...I skim read things far too quickly. So Michael was a bullocky and had retired from the Council by 11 Aug 1870.
http://www.yarraranges.vic.gov.au/content/Public/Home.aspx
A small new snippet about the history of the council
http://www.theage.com.au/news/Victoria/Lilydale/2005/02/17/1108500206670.html
In 1856 a small number of locals petitioned the government to allow the formation of a local council. In fact Lilydale was constituted as a district and the Upper Yarra Roads Board was constituted that year (it did not hold its first meeting until 1862), bringing some form of local administration although Lilydale shire was not formed until 1872.
Cando
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I don't think she did remarry. I have often wondered how she survived but if she had land and at least one male employee that we know of may be she did survive alone, as described in that article about pioneer life. I have also wondered if she did remarry would the children, all under 12 years old, take the new father's name. Clearly this did not happen as they are all my Smith ancestors.
However worth investigating now we know her name which i was not able to find out before!! I am so grateful.
My grandfather is james the second son.
Mt father james, Michael smith is his son and was always known to the family as Son. and also Jim Smith of warragul. He worked on the railways.
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just 1 more on -
Councillor Michael Smith.
The Argus, Thursday 23 January 1873. page 8.
Election Notices.
SHIRE OF LILLYDALE
South West Riding
Extraordinary Vacancy
Notice is hereby given that an ELECTION of one COUNCILLOR, to fill the extraordinary vacancy in the Council caused by the death of Councillor Michael Smith, will be held at Brushy Creek, on Thursday, the 6th Day of February next. All candidates at such election must be nominated in accordance with the terms of the Shires' Statute, No.
358.Nomination day-Wednesday the 20th Inst ROBERT BLAIR, Returning Officer.
http://newspapers.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/5846811/234581?zoomLevel=3#pstart234581 (direct link)
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Do you know where Michael is buried....perhaps Mary was buried with him.
Death
SMITH Mary
Father Mcnamara Mother Unknown UNKNOWN
58 years at Melbourne West 1902 Reg#6714
Cando
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The Doc who conducted the autopsy could be this chap -
Dr. John Blair ELMES, Qualified - Dublin 1863, settled in 1863, addresses - Anderson's Creek 1867 and Lilydale,Vic 1873, died June 1884 at Lilydale,Victoria.
http://www.medicalpioneers.com/cgi-bin/index.cgi?detail=1&id=1248
So Michael possibly is buried in the Lilydale district (just a hunch).
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I have checked the Lilydale and surrounding cemeteries and there is no burial record for Michael....that is why I asked ;D I thought that norag would know as they are her ancestors. I wonder if anyone has any certificates?
Cheers
Cando
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Unfortunately the database gives no further identifying information. You would think they could have least detailed the date of burial.
With a surname SMITH :-\ :-\
SMITH Mary
Lilydale Memorial Park
Row 6 137
Perhaps give the cemetery a call - 1300 368 609
Cando
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Just had another look at the Lilydale site (Lilydale Lawn cemetery) I can see a Michael Smith Row 3 #57 and a Mary Smith Row 3 #58
However I think this is probably a newer section of the cemetery than would have been in use when Michael died.
Unfathomable as to why the site doesn't have a date. The Christian and surnames of Michael and Mary SMITH are so common it could easily not be them, but I thought it might be worth looking at.
Cando is right - a phone call would give you the information as to whether these are the right people.
Judith
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Thanks for all that work I haven't worked out how to use these little faces yet otherwise there would be lots of smiley faces for you. I read in the instructions that I should not use too many capitals etc either so am still finding my way.
It is disappointing that Michael is not buried in or near Lilydale. I would have thought that by the late 1870'3 there would be no bush burials.. surely not.. I wonder of the cemetery records are complete.
Later James, the second son was married to Mary Kelly 23/9/91 . The first marriage in the Catholic Church in Healsville. Church and it's records, since burned down I have been led to believe, but I have pages from a family bible presented to them on that occasion. That has been my only source of information so far plus the photo I mentioned before.
I have been chasing up certificates but so many smiths it has been expensive but now i have a few more clues, egg names of Michael's wife and children. very exciting.
Disappointing too how little info there is on some certificates. is there a form of certificate more complete?
Anyone have advice of best method of chasing certificates?
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norag
There ARE some Michael SMITHs and some Mary SMITHs at Lilydale but we think they are in the newer part. However, they may be older burials as the memorial section has been in use since about 1860ish.
www.lilydalecemetery.com.au
The website has an email contact or you can phone them - Cando has already given you the number. There is also a search facilty on the web-site but they do not give dates for the burials which makes it a bit difficult to know if they are the ones you are looking for.
Good luck - Judith
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Thanks Judeb I will follow up the Lilydale cemetery link.
Judb and Logan Appinmgirl is my cousin, but not on the Smith side She is a Mahony, and she has been very helpful
Norag
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Regarding cemetery burial sites side by side does seem to be significant especially as the names Michael and Mary are the sites we are looking for. However, the fact that a Mary smith died in West Melbourne aged 56 , and that is where one of her son's had moved to seems also significant. Luckily records would have been better by them Maybe she is the Melbourne General cemetery. Norag
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Good advice from Judith ;D
If you would like to use the smileys, simply click on the one you would like to use and it will appear where you have the cursor in your message ;D ;D I love them ;D
Never assume you have the correct information as it is mother and son buried adjacent to each other.
Mary SMITH was buried on the 10 Jan 1902 in the Lilydale Cemetery is at location RC3 57.
Also buried at RC3 58 is Michael SMITH who was interred on 12 Apr 1903.
Buried at RC3 38 on 18 Jan 1873 is Michael SMITH.
The Trust member of staff was extremely helpful. :-*
Deaths
Mary's is already on the thread. Reply#16
SMITH Michael
Father Smith Michael Mother Mary UNKNOWN
43 years at Melbourne East 1903 Reg#6464
and you have Michael's.
Certificates are the only way of validating the information.
Cheers ;D
Cando
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Do either of you need further help with this SMITH family in Vic? Oh why did I write that ::) :P
Have you all the children's deaths etc. This one b. c1872
SMITH Joseph Thomas
Father Smith Michael Mother Mary McNAMARA
34 years at Lilydale 1906 Reg#5974
Row 3 seems to be in the Roman Catholic Section
SMITH Joseph
Lilydale Lawn Cemetery Row 3 77
Apologies Judith for misleading you with my comment that the Lawn Cemetery may be the newer one :-[
Cheers
Cando
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Oh yes I have a further inquiry. My father, Jim Smith, had an aunt Auntie Bell. She lived in Lilydale. Married to a butcher, I think. They had land out of Lilydale and a house up on a hill you could see from the road. I have an idea she carried on the business after he died. But not sure of any of that. She was a lovely, kind and generous person. I wonder if anyone remembers her.
problem is I do not remember the surname. was she married to one of those orphans? for example
Michael died in West m\Melbourne 1902 or 3 Thomas died as a baby My dad was James so that only leaves John, Edward or Patrick .
Maybe she was a smith herself and married person unknown.
I just thought someone might remember her
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No need to apologise Cando. I also thought it would be the newer area. Why don't they put the dates on their website -you'd think it would save them a lot of time in answering queries.
Pleased we seem to have found them. :)
Judith
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I am wondering how i send a photo to rootschat? I can send an email but not sure how to send to a www.
norag
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Dear Cando and others
You ask if I have all the answers now. Well I would love to take the next step back and try to trace the family bach to Co Clare or wherever but it will become more difficult . As you say, certificates are the answer.
Must leave it for now as Work calls unfortunately.
Can't seem to get the image posted I can find it but cant send it. Appingirl may be able to do it for me. Thasnks as always Norag
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I don't like your hopes of finding information in Ireland. Your need to know the townland and parish of the county and with a name like SMITH. Sorry to sound so pessimistic. You are seeking records prior to civil registration and many of their records were destroyed by fire in 1922.
http://www.groireland.ie/history.htm
http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/irl/
Instructions on how to upload a photo to rootschat -
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,130922.0.html
Cheers
Cando
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Oh yes I have a further inquiry. My father, Jim Smith, had an aunt Auntie Bell. She lived in Lilydale. Married to a butcher, I think. They had land out of Lilydale and a house up on a hill you could see from the road. I have an idea she carried on the business after he died. But not sure of any of that. She was a lovely, kind and generous person. I wonder if anyone remembers her.
problem is I do not remember the surname. was she married to one of those orphans? for example
Maybe she was a smith herself and married person unknown.
I just thought someone might remember her
We need a little more information to help with this one.
Michael died in West m\Melbourne 1902 or 3 Thomas died as a baby My dad was James so that only leaves John, Edward or Patrick .
Who is this then? Perhaps you need either Michael's or Mary's death certificate to actually see how many children there were.
SMITH Joseph Thomas
Father Smith Michael Mother Mary McNAMARA
34 years at Lilydale 1906 Reg#5974
Row 3 seems to be in the Roman Catholic Section
SMITH Joseph
Lilydale Lawn Cemetery Row 3 77
You can purchase an image of a cert online and immediately download for $17.50
https://online.justice.vic.gov.au/bdm/index-search?action=purchaseImage
Cando
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So this would be James' family. (just a side branch) :)
James Smith married Mary Ann KELLY ,Ldale (place of birth - possibly Lilydale) in 1891 (#5366)
James Michael SMITH born to James SMITH and Mary Ann KELLY Healsville in 1892 (#23945)
Irene May SMITH born to James SMITH and Mary Ann KELLY at Healesville 1894 (#21362)
Margaret Mary SMITH born to James SMITH and Mary Ann KELLY at Warburton in 1896 (#31663) died age 7 at Healesville in 1903 (#9927)
Good on you Cando - you found where Michael was buried, as suspected Lilydale. :) ;D
have learnt never assume = makes an a** out of u and me. :-X
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These would be norag's direct line.
Mary Ann KELLY was born Healesville according to the marriage registration
KELLY Mary Ann
Father Michael Mother Isabella MALONEY
At Healesville 1872 Reg#23750
But perhaps norag has all this information.
Cando
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Michael SMITH born, father Michael, mother Mary MCNAMARA,birth place Evel (Evelyn) in 1863 (#8731)
A possibility
Death
SMITH Michael
Father Smith Michael Mother Mary UNKNOWN
43 years at Melbourne East 1903 Reg#6464
Cando
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Good on you Cando - you found where Michael was buried, as suspected Lilydale.
Thank you Logan however I think we all assumed it would be Lilydale.
The database is not user friendly and naturally thought the Lawn Cemetery would be a much newer cemetery than the Lilydale Memorial Gardens. Once again one should never assume. Phone call was well worth the time and I did make a suggestion to the Trust about the date of burial or date of death being on their database.
I also wondered about the establishment of the cemetery as the Lilydale Shire was not formed until 1872 being part of the Upper Yarra Board till then. Really can't be fussed about searching the gazettes for the date of establishment of the cemetery....can be time consuming. ;)
Cheers ;D
Cando
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On the PROV will site is mention of the Michael SMITH who died in 1903. He was a butcher, lived in Lilydale. Unfortunately the actual papers have not been digitised.
http://proarchives.imagineering.com.au/index_search_details.asp?searchid=54&id=106054
There is a mention of Michael the butcher in the NLA digi newspaper
http://newspapers.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/9622585?searchTerm=smith+lilydale+butcher
Judith
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The Argus Friday 3rd Jan 1902
A painful accident happened to Mr. Michael Smith, who carries on a butchering business in Lilydale. He was hanging up a sheep on the hooks in the shop, when his hand caught in the hook, causing a nasty gash, which necessitated a number of stitches being inserted by Dr. O. F Gmelin, of Lilydale.
http://newspapers.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/9622585?searchTerm=michael+smith+butcher+lilydale
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Snap, Logan ;D
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Well did he die in 1903 in Melbourne East? Another cert? Electoral rolls next on the list.
I am repeating myself....?age :-[ :-[ Michael is buried next to his mother.....I need to read my own posts :-[
Cando
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Apologies to the Cemetery Trust....if you click onto the 'show on map' it brings up lots of information.
Father-
Reg#00094
LocationRC3 038 Area row 3
SMITH Michael 40 years
Mother
Reg#01051
Location RC3 057 Area Row 3
SMITH Mary 58 years
Son
Reg#01073
LocationRC3 058 Area row 3
SMITH Michael 40 years
Cando
Edit...correct data
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:)
The Argus Friday 28th August 1903
NOTICE to CREDITORS. - All persons having any claims against the estate of MICHAEL
SMITH, late of Lilydale, in the state of Victoria.
butcher, deceased, letters of administration of whose estate were granted by the Supreme Court of Victoria to Joseph Smith, of Lilydale aforesaid, butcher, are hereby required to SEND in PARTI-CULARS in writing of such CLAIMS to the under- mentioned Michael Mornane, solicitor, on or before Thursday, the 1st day of October, 1903, after which date the said Joseph Smith will proceed to distri-bute the assests of the said Michael Smith which shall have come to his hand or possession among the persons entitle thereto, having regard only to and being liable only in respect of the claims of which he shall then have had notice.
Dated this 21st day of August, 1903
M. MORNANE, No. 2 St. James Buildings, Wil-liam - street, Melbourne, solicitor for the administrator.
http://newspapers.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/9821089?searchTerm=michael+smith+butcher+lilydale#pstart334434
(narrows the date of his death)
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I wonder if we can find the other children to Michael and Mary ::) ::)
Oh I did look for a marriage for Michael b. Lilydale but so far nothing.
Joseph Smith, of Lilydale
Logan
Ah the other brother whose death I found but no birth c1872.
Reg#01186
Location RC3 077 Area row 3
SMITH Joseph 34 years
Cando
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Letters of Administration for Joseph SMITH, butcher of Lilydale, who died 21st June 1906 and mentions wife Isabella ;D ;D ;D.
So norag you have your Aunt Bella, wife of Joseph Thomas SMITH [born c1872] son of Michael and Mary who lived at Lilydale.
Marriage
SMITH Joseph Thomas born Mooroolbark
SUPPLE Isabella Theresa born Yering
1905 Reg#3121
Death
SMITH Isabelle Theresa
Father Supple Michael Mother Isabelle YOUNGER
At Lilydale 85 years 1959 Reg#21209
Burial record at the same location as Joseph SMITH.
Reg#06008
Location RC3 077
Area row 3
SMITH Isabella 85 years
Cheers
Cando
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Thank you Cando and Logan
It gets better and better. Who needs to read detective novels when there is all this real life to discover.
Now I am wondering if Michael and Isabella had any children
Also who is the Joseph Smith of Lilydale who died 1872 ref 01186
Would he be a brother of our original Michael of Brushy Creek
Otherwise I can't see how he fits in. Can you?
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Joseph T SMITH born c1872 is the son of Michael SMITH and Mary McNAMARA.
Isabella was married to Joseph T SMITH.
There do not appear to be any children to Joseph and Isabella. They married in 1905 and he died 21st June 1906.
All the children of Michael and Mary will be listed on their death certificates.
It is possible to purchase and immediately download either Michael [1873] or Mary [1902] death certificates.
https://online.justice.vic.gov.au/bdm/index-search?action=purchaseImage
Information on Vic Certs
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,373754.0.html
Cando
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Re Joseph Smith He is not mentioned on the Census report from national archives
The children they had Michael in1863,
john 1863, James 1865
thomas 1866( he died soon after birth)
Edward 1866 ( maybe a different smith family? ) Edward thomas smith 1871
patrick Daniel 1872
In the photo taken after Michael's
there are 6 children
I need to get those certificates. Will do it tomorrow.
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The Argus Sat 23 June 1906 pg11
SMITH. - The Friends of the late JOSEPH SMITH are respectfully invited to follow his remains to their last resting - place, the Lilydale Cemetery.The funeral is appointed to leave his late resi- dence. To-morrow (Sunday), at 2 p.m.
BURTON and SONS, Undertakers, Lilydale.
http://newspapers.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/10038462/344521?zoomLevel=3#pstart344521
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Cando Logan Judb thanks so much for all the information, as I have said before this site has some amazing people willing to devote their time to help others. I will try and upload photo for Norag tomorrow. 8) :) :-*
C
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http://proarchives.imagineering.com.au/index_search.asp?searchid=54
To search and download the files for Michael and Joseph SMITH. Unfortunately Judith's link is no longer working. The files are very slow to download but Letters of Administration for Joseph mention his wife Isabelle.
Cheers
Cando
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Thank you. I continue to find out more. The death certificates are a great source of info aren't they. I read that Mary McNamara, wife of Michael Smith of Brushy Creek had been in the colony 40 years when she died. That means she immigrated at age 16. That would be 1859 so that gives me a date to look at Immigration lists. Norag
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I am now trying to find out what happened to 3 of the children of Michael Smith of Brushy Creek( I have worked out the rest)
John Smith born Mooralbark, 1863 # 2946
Edward Smith born Mooralbark 1866 #24224
Patrick Daniel Smith born Lilydale 1872 # 24215
1, did they stay in the area of Lilydale . Electoral Rolls maybe?
2. Did they marry and have families?
3 How can I get Death, or marriage certificates when I have no idea when or where they were?
One of them , or a son of one of them, went to Western Australia, and stayed there. Apart from that no family stories at all to account for their presence in the family. On their mother,Mary Smith nee McNamara's death certificate there is a note after Edward's name but I cannot decipher it.
Norag
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Could you type up the details of issue, living and deceased from Mary's death certificate as you now seem convinced that Patrick Daniel SMITH is the son of Michael and Mary. How many children were noted on Mary's death certificate then....six or seven?
The only Patrick Daniel SMITH who died in Victoria was the son of a Patrick and Mary Ann KAVANAGH and I have traced him on the electoral rolls with those parents.
Who went to Western Australia?
Can you post the portion of the certificate that contains the words you can't read following Edward's name. Does it refer to living or deceased or unknown?
How can I get Death, or marriage certificates when I have no idea when or where they were?
norag
Welcome the difficulties of researching one's family history ;D ;D ;D We have all been there and it is frustrating and for you made all the more difficult with the surname SMITH. Perhaps you could go to a library which has the Diggers Indexes in their resources and you could trawl the SMITH deaths for your people by attempting to match the ages with the years of birth of the three men....but perhaps they died interstate.
Sorry about all the questions but it is difficult to help you with only snippets of the information you have found.
Someone else may have some ideas....I hope so. ;D
Cheers
Cando
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Quote Cando:you now seem convinced that Patrick Daniel SMITH is the son of Michael and Mary. yes same parents date on census
7 names on Mary Smith nee McNamara non death cert. 1 deceased
John aged 39
Michael aged 38 (We know he died)
James aged 36 ( my grandfather)
Thomas deceased
Edward indecipherable note he died in the 1950's in Melbourne Did not marry that I know of
Joseph Thomas no age He is incorrectly listed on the Census as Edward Thomas
Patrick Daniel no age
This all matches the info and rego numbers you gave to me so they are all her children
Strange they did not know the ages of the last three to put on death cert
The real puzzles are John and Patrick Daniel.
Quote Candi Can you post the portion of the certificate that contains the words you can't read following Edward's indecipherable note: Technically I can't do that Will get someone to help over the weekend .
Quote Cando: the Diggers Indexes in their resources you could trawl the SMITH deaths for your people by attempting to match the ages with the years of birth of the three men....but perhaps they died interstate.
Tess I will do that when I get over to Victoria. I am going to assume they were all in Victoria .
Norag
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Norag I am puzzled by your referral to the census. Do you mean the births, deaths and marriages in Victoria perhaps. So there were seven births after all.
Only trying to help you decipher the words on the certificate, I would guess it refers to whether or not Edward is living or deceased.
The Diggers Indexes are at many libraries not only in Victoria.
SMITH Edward
Father Michael Mother Mary Ann McNAMARA
At Kew 89 years 1957 Reg#7930
His death certificate would give you details of his marriage and children, ie if he married.
Cheers
Cando
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Census info I think you sent me or maybe LoganL. did from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
Thank you re Edward. Now it is only John Smith ::) ::) the puzzling Patrick Daniel
I seem to remember that John was referred to as Uncle Jack, but never heard mention of patrick. maybe he was the black sheep
can i send the birth cert personally to you in an email. i can handle that technology but can't seem to get photos etc onto the Rootschat site. i did read all the assistance but i seem to have a mental block there. i did try. norag
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The writing goes over the edge of the column and says something like :Unknown years 24 about
Edward would in fact would have been 34 ish but how come his brothers know nothing about that. Of course i do not know who was filling the certificate but strange that the three older sons' ages were known and not the younger three.
My brother has just told me that he thinks my father had a cousin ( or maybe uncle)in Dorrigo Vic.
That is something I have not explored at all yet. If it is a cousin it could only be a child of John or Patrick
We are fairly certain Edward did not marry. He ended living in an old hut on a farmer's property in Gippsland.When he became too old he was brought to Kew , He ran away and died soon after. Poor old fella. Norag
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Hi Norag :)
I thought Dorrigo was in NSW...pretty spot. Perhaps there is also one in Victoria :-\
Norag where did Mary die as it is noted as Melbourne West on the index?
What was her cause of death. If Mary was very ill she may not have been able to give any information to her 'carer' about her own parents or children.
Who was the informant?
The information on death certificates may offer clues to family relationships. Perhaps they had all gone their own way and possibly not kept in touch. You did mention Edward lived in an old hut and was later admitted to ?Kew Asylum.
I am also a bit puzzled....requests for information about this family are answered by yourself within a couple of hours, with the word 'we think'. Perhaps it may be better to allow the person helping you to perhaps give you all the information they have and then if they can't help further, ask us for help. Sorry to sound a tad disgruntled but it is very easy to spend quite a bit of time searching for this SMITH family....and we like to be helpful ;)
Cheers :)
Cando
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Opps Dorrigo is in NSW
Mary died in Melbourne West. There was a postmortem. It showed fatty degeneration of the Heart and Bright's disease of the liver.the fact that there was a postmortem maybe indicates that she was alone. I have no idea of her living situation.
Informant on death cert? John O Rorke, an authorised agent of 50 Pitt st Carlton..so not family or carer
Edward lived in hut later in life.I Very probable he never married . There was a section of Kew that admitted "old people" with nowhere to go.He was not insane. I remember vaguely from childhood, my father trying to look after him and effect the best solution . Maybe it was not kew but some other old people's home as they were called in those days, ie the 50's
Sorry about adding new information within hours. I guess I have been so excited about
finding out all this information and it has triggered some memories for me. Also have tried to involve my two brothers. The snippet about Dorrigo was from one of them
I am extremely grateful for the assistance I have received and realise that my inexperience at using this tool has caused some frustration for you. I will try to understand the system better and work within guidelines and assemble all the facts before reply.
I guess the more information within hours was to say.. hey and here is another clue.
To summarise the inquiry on the Michael smith family. There is only John Smith#2946 and Patrick Daniel Smith#24215 to be accounted for. And maybe one of them went to Dorrigo, NSW
Norag
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Thank for that Norag. At times I think people appear to have access to family trees and are really only asking us to validate information. It is wonderful that your brothers are interested and willing to help you.
It isn't unusual to have the funeral director as the informant.....and someone gave information about Mary's family to that person. Post mortems are performed if there is no known medical history and the cause of death and manner of death is unknown or suspicious.
Death in NSW - right area
1004/1945
SMITH Patrick Daniel
Father Michael
District Bellingen
Kew Asylum admitted geriatrics with acute and long term needs including dementia/senility. It wasn't a place that simply housed aged people that had nowhere else to go.
He ran away and died soon after
You would need to see his death certificate to validate his actual place of death.
Possibly Edward's burial record
http://www.deceasedsearch.com/index.php
Springvale Botanical Cemetery
SMITHEdward
Date of Service 9 Jul 1957
Burial - Roman Catholic - Monumental Compartment D Section 13 Grave 44
Public Grave No
This memorial is held in perpetuity - for all time
Cheers
Cando
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This the photo that triggered off the enquiry. I had no idea of the names of any of them, the widow or her children , but knew One of the children was my grandfather. I am so grateful and amazed at all you have been able to discover maybe I can get your team to restore it. Norag
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You are so fortunate to have this photo ;D
It looks like James, Edward, Mary nursing Patrick Daniel, John, Michael and Joseph Thomas seated. I think the name orphans has been incorrectly used. Orphans are children who have lost both parents.
Cando
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Thank you for sharing your photo of Michael & Mary's family.
You might consider to post on the Photograph Restoration & Dating part of Rootschat and ask is some kind person would improve / clean up the family photo.
Some really talented people post their.
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?board=298.0
:)
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I think probably the term Orphans may have been used to generate sympathy at obviously a very emotional time. As we read in an earlier report the whole community of Brushy Creek was shocked at the death
I wonder who took the photo and why and who wrote the inscription. Newspaper? local church community?
I find the photo so moving and very excited to find out so much about them, to know their names etc Norag
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Death in NSW - right area
1004/1945
SMITH Patrick Daniel
Father Michael
District Bellingen Do you know an address for getting images of certificates for NSW such as the one I have been using for Vic? and is the 1004 the Ref number?
dementia/senility. Edward by then would have been suffering both. The farmer reported him to my dad as being incapable of looking after himself.
I will try to get his certificate and follow up at springvale.
Thanks as always grateful Norag
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Transcriptions of certificates are available in NSW. The cost is considerably cheaper $17/18 and the transcription is emailed.
http://www.bdm.nsw.gov.au/familyHistory/howToSearch.htm#TranscriptionAgent
Norag you have 'misquoted' me in reply#64. Would you please modify the post and remove the quote marks. Thanks.
Cheers
Cando
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That will be him. I have applied for the certificate. Somehow did not find the spot where certificates are emailed so they are sending it and it cost $28 Oh well!. Only problem now I have to wait to view it. Cant wait as it will show if he married.
I inquired about marriage certificates and there were none. Maybe he married in Vic before he left for NSW.
the possibility is that there is a branch of the family in NSW that we never knew existed? :)
Norag
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Norag transcriptions of certificates are emailed ie if you purchase from a transcription agent...cost $17/18. Certificates are mailed.
Cheers ;D
Cando
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Reply to Cando 58
Yes thanks I must have reached the wrong spot. I will be more careful next time. I find some of these sites very difficult to negotiate, but I am learning ;) :)
I am looking forward to seeing if Patrick was married but suspect that he was not.
It only remains now for me to find where John is buried. I am going to try The lilydale cemetery as suggested in am earlier post. I do not think he left the area but that is only surmise. No evidence.
Strange so few of them married. My grandfather seems to be the exception. He married twice and had 7 children. That is James of the photo3161
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Hello all,
I have been researching the Trinder Family of Birts Hill Brushy Creek from 1866 -1890...James Smith a Melbourne Journalist was his direct neighbour....I assume Michael Smith was his son (or Vica Versa) & he and Charles Trinder were both Wood Carters with Bullock teams that worked the district. Michael Smith & Charles Trinder appeared to partner in a Beer Lic. for a inn known as the THE EXCURSION INN at Birts Hill in 1869. Michael Smith was crushed/Killed by his own Bullock wagon in 1873. The Excursion Inn may have been sold to Charles Trinder's future son in law William Turner in 1870. Charles Trinder had a nick name of "Black Charlie" as he was known to run with Blacks & had an Aboriginal mistress by the name of Alice who lived at the top of his land at Birts Hill, with which we believe he fathered 5 children.....I trust this information helps the Smith Investigation.