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Wales (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Wales => Denbighshire => Topic started by: valerie1 on Monday 28 March 05 14:56 BST (UK)
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I have been down many avenues, but I think the best place to find expertise on Kinmel Camp really is here.
My grandfather, who I know to be one Frank Taylor, was based at Kinmel Camp in 1919. I have no other information about him, as my mother was conceived upon him meeting my grandmother in that November at the Hesketh Arms in Abergele, close to the camp.
He is such a mysterious character, he has proved too much for me alone to try and track down. So my question is, who was at Kinmel Camp in November 1919?
Any knowledge you could bestow on me would be appreciated greatly.
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Hi Valerie
I guess Kinmel Camp was at Kinmel Park.
(Bartholemew's Gazetteer, 1927, says Kinmel Park is on N.E border of Denbighshire, 3 miles S.E of Abergele)
If you look at the following link, it seems there was a riot of war weary troops there in March 1919, and there was a film made "Kinmel Park Riots" about it (but seems to be only available in USA/Canada).
http://www.filmwest.com/Catalogue/itemdetail/1306/
Let's hope there is a friencly RootsChatter over the water>
Good luck, Joe
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Hi Joe,
Yes Kinmel camp is well documented, have read about riot's using the archive newspaper's.
Think most of the Canadians had gone home to wards the end of 1919, lets hope someone knows who was left.
Thanks
Val
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Hi Valerie,
You don't say if your GF was a serving soldier based at the camp or what his nationality was.However,the camp is mostly famous,or should that be infamous,for the riot/mutiny which took place there in 1919 and which involved Canadian troops.
the following may be interest to you:
www.1914-1918.net/hospitals_uk.htm#huts (http://www.1914-1918.net/hospitals_uk.htm#huts)
www.bodelwyddan-castle.co.uk/sales.htm (http://www.bodelwyddan-castle.co.uk/sales.htm)
canoe.ca/CNEWSFeatures0105/02_soldiers-cp.html (http://canoe.ca/CNEWSFeatures0105/02_soldiers-cp.html)
I hope you get to the sites via the links and all the best in your research.
Another site to try--they have a forum similar to Rootschat--where you can post.Someone there may be able to assist you.:
www.1914-1918.org (http://www.1914-1918.org)
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Hello Lloyd
Thanks so much for your reply and website address,
I did know about the Canadians but think they had all gone by 1919.
I have sent a e.mail to your last web address for a quote to find Frank but think the situation is dire i only have his name and where he was in 1919 not a lot to go on thats why i thought if i could find out the regiments that were in Kinmel I might have a fighting chance,
i have used the great war forum before the people on there are fantastic, but now can't get on there its got a new look and a few teething problems unless i am doing something wrong.
But i am sure you can see with only Franks name its like a needle in a haystack, but you never know.
Regards Valerie
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Hello Valerie,
I posted a couple of thoughts for you a few months ago. Sorry you haven't made much progress.
I had another quick look at the Canadian archives and see that there were 51 Frank Taylors and 23 Francis Taylors in the CEF.
It seems that the only way to narrow the field would be to check dates on Discharge Certificates - and they're only available by post from Ottawa. (About 20p each + postage?).
If my arithmetic is right (!) you could get the lot for about £30 - and you MIGHT find the right one, discharged in late 1919/early 1920 - IF he was Canadian!
Regards. Bob Lewis.
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Hi Bob
Just when I think I will give up another crumb falls my way.
What a great idea, its money well spent to me I cant thank you enough.
Will look into it at the weekend and let you know how I get on, when the papers turn up.
This family history is a pain but i am hooked and Frank is like an itch I cant get rid of.
Regards Valerie
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If you can let me know exactly what information you want, then I will do my best to help. I worked at Kinmel Camp until 2 years ago so have a bit of knowledge about its history.
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HI TaffyBlue
Just got back from holiday had 186 e.mails only five of interest to me let out a cry f joy when I saw yours, heres the story in a nut shell my grand mother who was unmarried had a daughter, my mother my grandmother worked at a public house called the Hesketh Arms in Abergele its still there but not a pub any more.
She meet a soldier called Frank Taylor he was my mothers father, he was stationed at Kinmel, I know nothing more of him, my grandmother turned to an association in wales for unmarried mothers she was helped but after having my mother in August 1920 she died a few months later of the terrible flu that was going about.
Nothing is know of Frank my grandmother could not find him, now I think it was too late in say the winter of 1919 for the canadians but I would stand corrected.
I know it was a transit camp I need to find out what regiments were stationed there in the winter of 1919 but its like a needle in a hay stack I have tried the MOD but as i do not have his reg number no luck but if I had that I would not need so much help so any thing you could think of would be great.
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Hi Valerie,
Thanks for your message, and the info you have provided. I will see what I can find out for you.
I know the Canadians were at the Camp in 1919, and you have already mentioned you know about the riots. Do you know if he was one ofthe the men that perished in the riots? If so, he could be buried at the "Marble Church" in Bodelwyddan. There are lots of Canadian graves there.
Three of the units based at Kinmel from the Canadians were Infantry Battalions, the 29th, 158th and 231st. These Battalions also served at Risboro Bks, Shorncliffe, Kent as well, which is near Salisbury Plain.
If he was one of the Canadians, the following may be able to help you:
HQ The Royal Canadian Regiment
Legion House
Kent and Gilmore Streets
Ottowa
Canada
K29 0R7
In the meantime, I will have a browse round and see what I can find out. Strangely, you are the second person I have answered queries for this week about the Canadians at Kinmel!
Also, there was a short programme made about the Kinmel riots by S4C/Channel 4. The programme was made only 5 or so years ago, I have seen it, as my boss at the time was there at the time and was credited on the programme. Try contacting S4C or Channel 4 to see if they have a copy. I believe it was on one of the Sky channels too.
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Hello TaffyBlue,
With respect, I think that Valerie has been pointed down most of those tracks already. I even toured the gravestones at the Marble Church myself out of curiosity, but found nothing.
We know the Enrolement details of the CEF are on line - see my post of 16.06.05 - but Discharge Certs. are not! They have to be bought from Ottawa - and it looks as though she needs 84 of them to be sure of finding the right one - if 'sure' is the right word! (It's not 100% certain he WAS Canadian!). I think I said that £30 might cover it.
If you have any contacts in the Archives Office in Ottawa that might be a big bonus for Valerie.
(I seem to have got so involved / intrigued by this that I might order them myself - just to end the suspense!)
Regards. Bob Lewis.
PS. The 'J' in front of the 30 was a pounds sign when I typed it!
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Hello Geordie
I try not to mention the Canadian thing but if I don't it always come back to that.
Its not the £ 30 ,can I ask Ottawa to send all 80 odd or do I have to list the men involved by name or number.
I am hoping Taffy Blue may know more about the comming and goings off the camp and maybe other regiments beside the Canadians.
Nice to see your message thinking about going to a medium to see if Frank can get through only kidding( UNLESS THERE ARE ANY READING This)
Regards Valerie
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Hi Valerie,
I've just been having another browse thro' the CEF records - and noticed something which made my heart sink! It looks as tho' you can't order just the Discharge Certificates by themselves - you get the whole record! That could be about 30 pages for one man - and charged accordingly! (And believe it or not - the prices went up only yesterday!)
As I said, I seem to have got so intrigued by this that I must do something - just for my own curiosity's sake. (It must be about a year since I first saw your appeals!)
It'll have to be something of a 'lucky dip', but if I go thro' the Enrolement/Attestation records which are on-line I can pick out the married men and eliminate them! (Go on - laugh!).
I could then have a look at a few of the younger, single men, say DoB from 1895 onwards, pick a few likely candidates - and ask for their files. That might take a few months let alone weeks....!
In the meantime perhaps 'TaffyBlue' could follow up his side of it and we might - just might - get a match-up of info! More importantly, he might be able to eliminate the Canadians altogether, which would make it all so much easier!
I'll start a bit of a dig thro' the 84 names asap! (I don't suppose you have anything more on his exact name have you? Anything in addition to 'Frank / Francis Taylor'?)
Cheers. Bob Lewis.
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Hi Geordie,
Thanks so much for your help its quite hard when your a novice like me and find family search quite a hard field to follow, but all that will change when I start my evening classes soon in family history well thats the theory anyway.
The Canadian thing sounds so complicated, I have found a couple of Frank Taylor one was charged with leaving prisoners I think he was at Kinmel I will dig out his details tomorrow and send them to you.
I know nothing about Frank except he was a soldier and at Kinmel and thats where my grandmother Jane met him in the Abergele Arms near by.
Regards Valerie
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Hello again, Valerie.
I've gone thro' the 84 Frank/Francis Taylors in the archive. I've picked out all the unmarried ones born 1895 or later - so I've now got 21 names which I'll use as a starting point. I might ask for the records of say, 5, of them just to make sure that the discharge info. is useful. Watch this space - until Xmas? (It might take that long!)
I hope that you're not under the impression that I'm some sort of expert in all this! I only got involved, if you remember, last year because a Canadian friend was staying with me and her father was in the CEF. I took her to see the Marble Church, which I had known about from the TV programmes. She then showed me the sort of thing she does for her Family History project - and we came across you looking for info. about Kinmel etc., where we had just been! That's when I shoved my nose in - and it's since become something of a challenge!
(Serves me right for being nosey!)
Cheers. Bob Lewis.
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I remember Bob, but was not aware you had a Canadian Friend.
I Welcome your nose in Franks business, any expense you incur I will reimburse you, I know the rule about not swapping addresses but there is always the P.O. box thing will make enquirers or may be a business address.
I used mine when somebody offered to send me a copy of an article about Patagonia I am trying to trace a great aunt who went there in early 1900 s but don't have her married name nothing comes easy does it.
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Sorry Valerie, I thought I had mentioned that. She's a Family History fanatic and was trying to indoctrinate me!
We 'met' through one of these so-called dating sites - and she was planning to come here for a couple of weeks to try and do some 'book research'. Instead of that she stayed with me for a month, toured all her 'family places' and we even found the farm where her father's ancestors had lived before 1720! (A pile of stones and nettles on the North Yorks. Moors!) (Her mum's ancestors came from Central London - so we didn't do much about that!)
She showed me how she got her father's service records in the CEF, then whilst she was trying to persuade me to research my history we came across you - the same day that we had been to see the Marble Church! It seemed like a challenge.....!
Good luck with the course - you'll know far more than I ever will!
Bob Lewis.