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Research in Other Countries => Australia => Topic started by: Nomer on Saturday 26 June 10 12:16 BST (UK)
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I am looking for information on Thomas James MESSENGER, b 11/8/1831 in England.
According to the Biographical Index of South Australians 1836-1885 he arrived in Australia in 1839, but I have been unable to find any record of his arrival.
Given his age, I expect he arrived with his parents who I think were William Messenger (b c.1805, Aylesbury, England) and Mary Henley (b. c.1809, Aylesbury, England) - this information came from FamilySearch but was posted by a relative so can't be confirmed.
Any help on finding information about Thomas and his parents (and siblings?) would be much appreciated.
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Hi Nomer,
I'm realy not the person to help you with your search as I don't have access to SA records. But... I do know there is a set of books published with all arrivals in Adelaide as published in the Adelaide newspaper of that time.
These same newspapers might be on the NLA website;
http://newspapers.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/home
You could try a search with the father's name.
There will very likely be someone on here tomorrow who is more likely to have SA record access.
Good luck,
Leonie.
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Hi Nomer, found this on arrivals SA.
MESSENGER Thomas arrived 1848-03-23 on David Malcolm from London 1847-12-21 v Plymouth [Source:6,20]
May be of some help.
Neil :)
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Hi Nomer,
A Big Welcome to RootsChat ;D
I suspect the arrival Neil has provided is the correct one. I see no other Thomas this arrival can fit.
passenger list (very little available for this period apart from ships entry recorded in paper.)
http://www.slsa.sa.gov.au/fh/passengerlists/1848DavidMalcolm.htm
Several notices in the papers re Thomas's passing suddenly aged 79. Looked at by Coroner (heart failure) This article sheds some light
http://newspapers.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/5236393?searchTerm=%22thomas+messenger%22
Colonist of 62 years.
Died 22 Feb 1910 aged 79 - providing an arrival in 1848
Do you require any further information on the family re BMD's etc?
Cheers Kris :)
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I suspect you may have the wrong family for Thomas. As you are aware it is submitted in nature.
HO107/41/12 Folio 2 Page 1
Hulcott
Aylesbury
MESSENGER Richard 49 Y Ag Lab
MESSENGER Martha 45 Y
MESSENGER James 13 Y
MESSENGER Thomas 11 Y
MESSENGER Joseph 5 Y
MESSENGER Francis 3 Y
MESSENGER Sarah 18 Y
also note a few houses away at Culcott
MESSENGER William 24 Y Ag Lab
MESSENGER Mary 28 Y
MESSENGER William 4 Y
MESSENGER Elizabeth 2 Y
Richard MESSENGER = Martha NORMAN 4 Feb 1818 Eddlesborough Buckinghamshire
some possible baptisms I spotted at Ivinghoe
Maria bap 20 Dec 1818
John born 31 Jan 1820 and bap 19 Mar 1820
Richard born 22 Jan 1822 and bap 17 Mar 1822
Jesse born 19 May 1826 and bap 25 Feb 1827
James born 20 Feb 1828 and bap 7 Sep 1828
perhaps William is a son
1851
HO107/1721 Folio 568 Page 6
Hulcott Rd
Hulcott
MESSENGER Richa Head 59 Mar b Hulcott Ag Lab
MESSENGER Martha Wife 54 Mar b Claydon Bucks
MESSENGER Francis Son 12 b Hulcott Ag Lab
MESSENGER Alfredo Son 9 b Hulcott at home
MESSENGER John grandson 1 b Hulcott
and William and Mary
HO107/1721 Folio 566 Page 3
Hulcott Rd
MESSENGER William Head 33 Mar b Ivinghoe Ag Lab
MESSENGER Mary Wife 37 Mar b Catton Oxon
MESSENGER William Son 13 b Hulcott Ag Lab
MESSENGER Elizth Dau 11 b Hulcott Plaiter
MESSENGER Anna Dau 9 b Hulcott Plaiter
MESSENGER George Son 7 b Hulcott at home
MESSENGER Chas Son 5 b Hulcott at home
MESSENGER Isaac Son 3 b Hulcott at home
John and fam (ag Lab) in Hulcott aged 32 b Ivinghoe
I can't see Thomas - I see Joseph b Hulcott with his brother Richard in Clerkenwell
Hope it helps
Cheers Kris :)
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These seem to be the only messengers that arrived between 1801-53
Louisa nee BOYD arrived 1839-01-23 on Resource (1) from London 1838-10-07 [Source:1(Mrs Jas MESSENGER),4,7(J MESSENGER),10]
MESSENGER James, Louisa nee BOYD, James, Louisa Chillman, John, Mary Ann, Art, Eliza b@sea arrived 1849-02-10 on Marion from London v Plymouth [Source:4,6,7,8,20,30]
MESSENGER Thomas arrived 1848-03-23 on David Malcolm from London 1847-12-21 v Plymouth [Source:6,20]
http://www.familyhistorysa.info/shipping/passengerlists.html
Hmmmmm. I might even have an interest there?????
Doesn't seem to help much though. The Messengers seem to be an elusive bunch!
Cheers Neil ???
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I looked at other MESSENGER's in SA and did not see any connections. James and family do not seem connected - according to the BISA they are from Surrey
http://www.slsa.sa.gov.au/fh/passengerlists/1849Marion.htm
Cheers Kris :)
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Thanks everyone for your help in tracking down the immigration information.
From what everyone has said, it seems pretty much everything I had was wrong :-[
I think I'm going to have to start from scratch again, going by nothing more than a name, approx. year of birth and that he came from England in 1848, maybe from Surrey if the BISA has this right.
Can anyone tell me where the BISA information was sourced from?
Kris - Can you tell more where you got the baptisms in Ivinghoe from? The fact that there is a Jesse Messenger listed is interesting, as one of my Thomas' sons was called Jesse which makes me interested in finding out more about the family.
Thanks again!
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Hi Nomer,
It is James and Family arriving in 1849 who hail from Surrey if the BISA has it right.
I still think there is a good chance Thomas is from Aylesbury as you think.
I think you need in depth study of these Bucks registers for likely parishes in the area. I did find some tree information on
http://wc.rootsweb.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi
More submitted information of course so needs to be checked. They do not know Martha's name but have Mary as Mary EDGINGTON. That William is certainly too young to be Thomas's father anyway but I had wondered if she may have been Mary HENLEY. Usually we find some truth in some of these things.
You will also note that the dob you have does not agree with aged 20 at marriage (close admittedly) This 11 year old in 1841 seems really good and I don't see him in 1851 so I really think more study of these registers is needed. I did not find an online source for them so unless someone on the Bucks board is able to help I would suggest you see your local LDS library about hiring the films in.
I found the Ivinghoe records on the IGI and also thought some of the brothers names (Jesse, Alfred, William, John) quite interesting names to find.
Cheers Kris :)
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Nomer,
Please keep me informed how you get on, as you will see from my surname interests MESSENGER is of one.
Neil ;D
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William MESSENGER = Mary EDGINGTON 19 June 1837 Over (Upper) Winchendon, Buckingham. (also in the Aylesbury area)
BTW Jesse is married to a Bucks girl and in London area by 1851 also.
Cheers Kris :)
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Hello again -
I have been in touch with the Buckinghamshire Family History Society and got birth, death and marriage records for Messengers for the time period I am interested in (if anyone else is interested in Bucks. Messenger family let me know).
I have identified two potential Thomas' for my family tree:
1. Thomas Messenger, b. 19 Sep 1830 [son of Francis and Martha Messenger of Hucott)
2. Thomas James Messenger, b. 6 Jan 1828 [son of James and Phebe Messenger of Long Crendon)
No. 1 is the best match for age, going on his being 79 when he died in Feb 1910. His family also matches given there is a brother named Jesse, and Thomas James had a son called Jesse.
No. 2 is the best match for name, but I haven't been able to find any more information on James and Phebe Messenger of Long Crendon to see if there is any other information to help make a decision. (I've tried the census reports with no luck, yet if he immigrated in 1848 he should be there somewhere)
Does anyone have any suggestions on where I could go from here?
Thanks again for your help and ideas
Nomer
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Thomas James Messenger b 11 Aug 1831 is the son of William Messenger and Mary Henley of Aylesbury Bucks.
Thomas as you know came to SA on the "David Malcolm" 1848.
On 1st March 1851 he married Amy Mills in Holy Trinity Adelaide.
Amy born7 Dec 1833, Ashford Kent. and came to SA on "Resource" 1839.
They had 13 Children - William 1854, George 1855, John 1858, Jesse 1860, Matilda 1860, Alice 1863 (our family point), Thomas 1865, Ada Eva 1867, Eva 1867 Otwin), Albert 1869, Emily 1872, Amy 1874, Alfred 1877.
Thomas James died 22 Feb 1910, Alberton
Amy died 21 April 1913 Queenstown
Alice married William Thomas Shaw
Hope this helps,
Barry
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Hi Barry -
Have you been able to find any sources that confirm Thomas was the son of William Messenger and Mary Henley, outside of the BISA? I've been having great difficulty trying to do this. My family link is through Jesse Messenger.
Cheers
Nomer
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Hi any of your group know of a "Jane Messenger" c1846. She was my Maternal GGrandmother. Married a Charles Masters and lived Sydney.
We have not been able to track her family back. :'(
Regards
Neil
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Hi Barry
I have been searching for information on George Messenger for a while now. I have a George Messenger born about 1856 from SA who married a Jane Messenger and ended up living in Brookton WA.
I had come across Thomas and Amy Messenger, but could not find any information on their Children. You have now given me another lead to follow
You would not have any more detailed info on George would you
Thanks
David
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david hope this helps,
George Messenger son of Thomas James Messenger and Amy Mills b27 Dec 1855 Enfield South Aust. d west Aust.
Married Jane Barty b 1858 on 22nd April 1878 at Kent Town South Aust.
Children;
Frederick George Messenger b 24 April 1879 Pt Adelaide
Ernest John Messenger b 9 Oct 1881 Rosewater South Aust.
Ann Minnie Watson Messenger b 15 April 1884 Pt Adelaide - d 19 Dec 1898 Payneham SA
Elsie May Messenger b19 July 1886 Pt Augusta South Aust
Herbet Charles Messenger b 12 Jan 1889 Pt Adelaide
Evelyn Annie Messenger b 23 May 1891 Woodville South Aust
Linda Jane Messenger b 13 Oct 1893 Pt Adelaide - d 1971 Numbleyong West Aust - Married Albert Bairstow.
Edith Alice Messenger b 30 May 1895 Queenstown South Aust.
Edgar Morris Messenger b 17 Jan 1905 Norwood South Aust
West Aust BDM on line may give more info on those that went to WA
Barry
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I can give a bit more information on George Messenger & Jane Barty’s children:
̵ Frederick George Messenger b 24 April 1879 Pt Adelaide, d 25 Oct 1964, Wooroloo Western Australia, buried Karrakatta Cemetery
̵ Ernest John Messenger b 9 Oct 1881 Rosewater South Aust., d 10 Dec 1963 (Palmyra Western Australia), buried Fremantle Cemetery; m Ada Susan Denney in 1918 (WA)
̵ Ann Minnie Watson Messenger b 15 April 1884 Pt Adelaide - d 19 Dec 1898 Payneham SA
̵ Elsie May Messenger b19 July 1886 Pt Augusta South Aust, m Robert Francis Bartlett 1905 (Brookton, Western Australia)
̵ Herbert Charles Messenger b 12 Jan 1889 Pt Adelaide, m Maud Grace Toop 1924 (Fremantle, Western Australia) d 21 Dec 1974 (Hilton Park, Western Australia).
̵ Evelyn Annie Messenger b 23 May 1891 Woodville South Aust, m John Charles Percival Price 1911 (Western Australia), d 23 Jan 1931 (Victoria Park, Western Australia)
̵ Linda Jane Messenger b 13 Oct 1893 Pt Adelaide, m Albert William Bairstow 02 Sep 1914 (Dumbleyung, Western Australia)
̵ Edith Alice Messenger b 30 May 1895 (Queenstown South Aust), d 1902 (Western Australia)
̵ Jane Barty Messenger, b 1898 (Boulder, Western Australia)
̵ Florence Winifred Messenger, b 1902 (Trafalgar, Western Australia), m Thomas Leo Pike, 1924 (Beverley, Western Australia), d 28 Jun 1990 (Mosman Park, Western Australia), buried Karrakatta Cemetery
̵ Edgar Morris Messenger, b 17 Jan 1905 (Norwood South Aust), d 08 Sep 1968 (Nedlands, Western Australia), buried Karrakatta Cemetery
If you are interested in info on George Messenger’s ancestors or siblings let me know
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Hi Barry / Nomer
Thanks for the info, everything matches what I already had regarding Georges children, but the info linking back to Thomas and his children is all new. I now have many new leads to follow.
George Messenger is my Great Great Grandfather. I am related through Ernest John, then Ernest George and my father Wayne Ewart.
I had always found it hard to find info in SA, as the BDM records ar not online. Any info you could send my way would be much appreciated
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there is mystery re thomas james messenger, born 11/8/1831 [my ancestor].
s.aust. records show that he arrived in 1839 on 'the resource', from aylesbury, buckinghamshire, aged 8.
a mrs. james [perhaps elizabeth] messenger was on the same ship, as was little amy mills [& family]-- he later married amy in 1851.
i have found no record of his parentage from s. aust library records.
old family info i have been given by relatives indicate that he is my ancestor, & not the thomas messenger who arrived on the 'william malcolm' in 1848.
who was mrs. james messenger? a mother, or maybe relative?
investigation this week at the state library in s. aust. found no record of her since the 1839 arrival. what was her maiden name, nothing shows re her death, or on thomas's marriage records, or on census info.
in july, i travelled to the u.k. 'ancestor hunting' [again!], & spent 3 days at the centre for buckinghamshire studies at aylesbury--my second visit there ,to look for thomas & co. history.
after searching, with much staff assistance, no record was found of thomas james, or a mrs. james messenger, or a link with a william messenger/mary henley, suggested by others possibly as his parents, or anyone else who may have been linked by dates.
certainly, there is evidence of messengers in the various aylesbury parish records, & in the 'posse commitatus of 1798' records, with earliest messenger listing in approx.1610.
incidentally, i visited a new aylesbury suburb with 'messenger close' as an area there.
before travelling to the u.k this year, i wrote to about 2 dozen messengers listed in the aylesbury & surrounds phone books seeking info on thomas or his parents, or family histories that may interlock, & had several responses---but with no actual interlock.
i know much of thomas's & amy's family history since his arrival in 1839 [co-incidentally, the same year that my ancestors on my mother's side arrived, so both within about the first 6000 colonists in s.aust!] ---but nothing of his british ancestory.
i am interested to know if he was able to take up land holdings here. if so, where did the money come from?--or was he share-farming, or labouring? needs more research.
the bucks centre suggested that there may be records in adjoining oxfordshire of thomas, because messengers were prominent there as early auctioneers. perhaps he was born near oxford & then moved to aylesbury. i haven 't researched this possibility.
it is surprising that i haven't been able to link his history or that of likely parents by date, etc. somewhere---but of course there were not complete records back then---only parish marriages, baptisms & deaths, & no censuses until later.
can anyone add information please?
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Hi -
Like you, I've been struggling along trying to decipher Thomas James Messenger's history and some curious issues about when he arrived and where he was born.
Like you I have been hunting through Buckinghamshire records. I've been unable to find any Thomas James Messenger, however when I looked I noticed that there is no record of his middle name being James, such as on his marriage certificate, birth certificates for children or his death certificate. I've wondered if this name was taken on by Thomas unofficially or just never recorded by the officials (or, possibly, not even used by Thomas and created by someone else?)
The best fit I could find within Buckinghamshire records was Thomas Messenger, baptised 19 Sept 1830 in Hulcott. This matches the right age of Thomas James Messenger, according to other records, however this is the Thomas that ended up migrating to Australia in 1848 on the David Malcolm. This date of immigration also fits how long he was reported to have spent in Australia according to his death notice in the Advertiser (62 years). If he'd been on the Resource, he'd have been in Australia for 71 years.
I'd be really interested to know the information that family relatives gave you about the relationship not being with the Thomas Messenger who arrived in 1848 - noone that I had contact with discussed family history with me.
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Nomer,
You may be right about 'Thomas James" actually being only 'Thomas". The South Aust Index of BDM's only show him as Thomas in all their entries. He is also noted in a small family history booklet of ours produced in 1980 as "Thomas" only.
Thomas appears as Thomas James in "Cotters, Ruths, Kealys etc", family tree ahnentafel in Rootsweb.
Note Our Thomas Messenger from Aylesbury is s/o William Messenger and Mary Henley, this is as far as we have traced back on this branch.
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all good info!
i will find family info etc. re thomas arriving in 1839, & circulate.
as indicated before, i have found no records for william m. & mary henley in aylesbury records as thomas's parents for relevant dates.
k.
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Note Our Thomas Messenger from Aylesbury is s/o William Messenger and Mary Henley, this is as far as we have traced back on this branch.
Could you let me know what sources you've used to come up with William Messenger and Mary Henley as parents? I started with these parents as well, but having searched all the primary records I could find and haven't been able to find any sources that showed this outside of the IGI records. Thanks.
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Hello
Did you all know that there is (well there used to be - haven't checked lately) someone doing a one name study of MESSENGER, in GOONS?
My cousin married a Messenger but unfortunately the patriarch of the family is in his 90s and not 'into' FH. :D :D :D
Dawn M
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Just checked GOONS - it seems to have been removed which is a pity. I would have been interested to see what they had!
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there has been much miss-information posted here re thomas messenger who arrived in s.a. in 1839 on the 'resource', the same ship which carried mrs. james messenger, & also little amy mills, who little thomas, then 8 y.o., later married at holy trinity church, north tce., adelaide.
i posted info on this site on 1/12/11 re thomas, my great grand father, following my latest visit to aylesbury.
today, an elderly relative is coming to my home to discuss family history.
she is the daughter of my grandfather's sister.
my grandfather was the last-born of thomas & amy, i.e. alfred james messenger.
it will be an interesting afternoon, i feel!
and i hope it will solve the mystery, rather that compound it!
who were thomas's parents, & where from!
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Hello,
I too am very cautious about Thomas's parents being William and Mary Henley. Can anyone shed any light on who they think his parents are? I am pretty sure he came out to Australia on "David Malcolm" on 23.3.1848. Just starting my searches on this fandangled Rootschat. So lets see what crops up.
Thanks
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Hi All,
I've been researching the Messenger side as I am also a relation. Thomas Messenger would be my great great great Grandfather. Just wondering how everyone went on with their search.
Thanks
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Hello there! Thomas's parents were Richard Messenger and Martha Norman from Aylsbury. Thomas is my 4th great grandparent as well! Happy to help,with more information if you want. Regards from Kathryn
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Thank you Kathryn.
Like others on this forum I've gotten mixed results, such as his parents being William Messenger and Amy Mills.
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Yes, Thomas was MARRIED to Amy Mills! Actually we have a small Messenger loop going, based in South Australia. The people there have been very busy and have come up with lots of answers! Some fascinating stuff. Let me know if you wish to be included in the loop. All the best from Kathryn! and a Happy Australia Day to you :) :) :) :) :) :)
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Whoops sorry I meant Thomas' parents being William and Mary Henley. I knew he was married to Amy Mills.
That would be amazing if you could add me. I just started two weeks ago so I'm very new to this.
Thank you so much for your help
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I also have a book full of photos that have been passed down through my family which I could share
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Yes we will get in contact about the Messengers. I will try and send you a personal message. Regards
Kathryn
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My wife Lorraine (nee Shaw) is the GG Grand daughter of Thomas Messenger and Amy Mills. We would be very interested to see any photos.
Thomas Messenger + Amy Mills - Alice Messenger + William Thomas Shaw - William Norman Shaw + Gertrude Stanton - Ronald Norman Shaw + Elizabeth Isabel Linda Griffin - Lorraine
We have placed an extensive family tree on Wikitree and I am willing to post photos and info
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My wife Lorraine (nee Shaw) is the GG Grand daughter of Thomas Messenger and Amy Mills. We would be very interested to see any photos.
Thomas Messenger + Amy Mills - Alice Messenger + William Thomas Shaw - William Norman Shaw + Gertrude Stanton - Ronald Norman Shaw + Elizabeth Isabel Linda Griffin - Lorraine
We have placed an extensive family tree on Wikitree and I am willing to post photos and info
Hi as I've said above I'm the GGG Grand daughter of Thomas Messenger and Amy Mills.
Thomas Messenger + Amy Mills = John Messenger + Mary Ann Keal = Nellie Clara Messenger + Frederick Claude Stephens = Vernon Claude Stephens + Elizabeth Jean Scott Clark = Craig Stephens + Linda Howlett = Me (Shaye Stephens)
I would love to see any information that you have. Is there anywhere I can show my photos. Unfortunately all my relations on the Messenger side have died there are many photos unidentified so I'm hoping there are some people that can help me
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Hello Shaye! I have sent you a personal message on Rootschat with my personal email. I will send again. Then we can correspond via email and it will be private and then I can put you in touch with all the other Messengers that are around and we WILL be able to identify your photos! all the best from Kath
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Hi all
registering my interest in this topic, as I am a Great-great-great grandson of Thomas MESSENGER & Amy MILLS.
(wonder if there is a record for couple with most descendants on Rootschat) :P
Thomas Messenger + Amy Mills
- Alice Messenger + William Thomas Shaw
- Getrude Olive Shaw + Victor Rhodes Vivian
- Alice Jean Vivian + Basil David Rees
- Mum (living)
- Me
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Hi Nudge!
I am a G G G Grandaughter of Thomas, from George who travelled to Western Australia. We have a Messenger loop going with a lot of descendants from the Messenger family. AND a lot of photos of the family. Inbox me of your email and we will compare notes. A lot of Messengers in South Australia and a lot of interest in this line!
All the best from Kath
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Hi all,
I’m trying to pick up where I left off long time ago. If anyone else had anything they could share it would be much appreciated. Before I stopped researching I was trying to look for more information on my great great grandfather John Messenger, son of Thomas Messenger and Amy Mills. Any suggestions on where to start? Any ideas would be greatly appreciated
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If the Thomas MESSENGER we are seeking is this man
Thomas Messenger
BIRTH 1831
DEATH 22 Feb 1910 (aged 78–79)
BURIAL Yankalilla Public Cemetery, Yankalilla, District Council of Yankalilla, South Australia,
then his death notice on TROVE says he was a colonist of 62 years which gives an arrival date of 1848 so perhaps he's the one living at Hulcote in 1841 with parents Richard and Martha
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/208013710
MESSENGER.—On the 23nd February, at Alberton, suddenly, of heart failure, Thomas Messenger, aged 79 years, leaving a widow, 5 sons, 5 daughters, 51 grandchildren, 9 great-grandchildren.
Colonist of 62 years. Late of Woodville and Two Wells.
He's buried at Yanakilla with Amy MESSENGER 1834-1913 and Matilda Amelia Messenger Stock 1862–1891 so I assume it's the correct man.
Neil Todd (Reply #2) posted an 1848 immigration
MESSENGER Thomas arrived 1848-03-23 on David Malcolm from London 1847-12-21 v Plymouth [Source:6,20]
Judith
edit to add: Amy was still alive when he died so the time spent in the colony is quite likely to be correct.
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Meant to add - Amy was still alive when he died so the time spent in the colony is quite likely to be correct.
Judith
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Hello everyone. I have some information about John (Jack) Messenger who died in Kilkenny South Australia in 1943. He was my third great uncle. His father Thomas was my third great grandfather. Nudge, we have exchanged information before. We are related. all the best from Kathryn in isolation in Western Australia. Shaye I have sent you a personal message.
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Hi Kath,
Sorry it’s taken me so long. I’ve sent you an email
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Hi all
I would love to get back onto the mailing list for the Messengers.
Thanks
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Hi all
Just revisiting this topic. Do we have a definitive answer? I'm convinced that he came on the David Malcolm in 1848. But are his parents William & Mary? Or Richard and Phoebe?
Nudge