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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Leicestershire => England => Leicestershire Lookup Requests => Topic started by: tedscout on Friday 02 July 10 05:23 BST (UK)
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Hi This is my 3rg Gr Grandmother. I am fairly sure she never married but she had 6 children.
I've traced her in
1841 she is living with parents
1851 she is living with mother, sister and a child
1861 she is living with her children
1871 she is in the workhouse wit some children
1881 she is living in Dragon Lane with some of her children
What happened to her after this I would really love to know. Can anyone help me?
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She had these children: George William in 1851 (he became a bailiff at Coleorton Hall), Elizabeth 1854, Mary Ann 1859, Arthur 1865, William 1867, Benjamin 1875.
If anyone can find her on the 1891 census or a death please I would be so greatful.
Thanks in advance, Ted
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I can't be 100% certain but I think this may be her on the 1891 census for Montrose Rd Aylestone
James Kenny 50 b Whetsone
Ann 59 shown as wife b Newbold Verdon
Winifred 10 b Whetsone
Benjamin 18 b Newbold Verdon
RG12 Piece 2496 Folio 108; Page 34
The 1881 census has Winifred as the parents of James & Eliza Kenney - Eliza was 36 and b Oldham
Deaths June qtr 1885
Eliza Kenney 40 Blaby 7a 28
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Thanks Carol I hadn't thought of her marrying late. mmmm more food for thought
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No wonder I didn't find anything like this in the 1891 census (and believe me I looked).
I use Ancestry and its very badly transcribed. Benjamin is 10 and a Coach painter - mmmmmm.
Now off to find out if she married James Kenny or just moved in with him.
Thanks again so much Carole I think you found her.
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Carole do you think this could be her death
Sep 1909 KENNY Ann 76 Billesdon 7a 18
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I use Ancestry and its very badly transcribed. Benjamin is 10 and a Coach painter
I know - if you look - I have notified the error to correct his birthyear as the image says 18 - not 10
I can't find a Kenny/Kenney/Neal marriage
The 1901 reference is RG13 Piece 3002 Folio 71 Page 37
The 1909 death looks a possibility but they were living in the Leics registration district in 1891/1901 and there is another Ann Kenny on the 1901 b 1832 who was living in the Blaby reg district so it's difficult to say really
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Thanks Carole,
I did notice you notified Ancestry.
I also know about the 2 Anns - have to wait to purchase certs though as Im broke at the moment.
I thought Ann had been abandoned by her family for a long time, now I think differently, thanks to you. I will keep chipping away at this one.
Cheers Ted
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Hi This is my 3rg Gr Grandmother. I am fairly sure she never married but she had 6 children.
I've traced her in
1841 she is living with parents
1851 she is living with mother, sister and a child
1861 she is living with her children
1871 she is in the workhouse wit some children
1881 she is living in Dragon Lane with some of her children
What happened to her after this I would really love to know. Can anyone help me?
Information removed due to copyright violation. See http://www.rootschat.com/forum/copyright.php for more details
RootsChat must deal with any breach of copyright by its members.
For some time the team of Copyright Editors has been removing breaches of copyright and sending detailed personal messages to the member that had posted the information. Due to the volume of posts and members this is now impractical. Messages in breach will simply be deleted and this notice posted. We apologise for any inconvenience caused but are sure you will appreciate the importance of this issue.
She had these children: George William in 1851 (he became a bailiff at Coleorton Hall), Elizabeth 1854, Mary Ann 1859, Arthur 1865, William 1867, Benjamin 1875.
If anyone can find her on the 1891 census or a death please I would be so greatful.
Thanks in advance, Ted
Hi Ted
I think we may be related? The Ann Neal mentioned in this post is my 3xgt grandmother through her first child George William 1851-1918, his son John Lee Neal 1885-1967 (who I can remember and called dad dad) and his daughter Mary Rebecca (my Nan). I realise we shouldn't really be Neals and have found what a tough time Ann must have had I hope she found happiness in the end, I've struggled to find a death for her looking under Neal or even Kenny who I think she must have just lived with as a common law wife.
If you have any Neal info you're willing to share I'd be most grateful.
Sarah
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Hello Sarah,
Welcome to RootsChat :)
Hi Ted,
I have just sent you a pm regarding a problem with your email notifications.
Sarah
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Hi Sarah
Got a bit confused there, thought I'd send myself a reply without knowing it lol
All the best people are called Sarah, either that or we're dead common!
Sarah
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I am going with option "a"
All the best people are called Sarah,
;D ;D ;D
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Hi both, just to let you know that I'm also still looking into the Neal family history (George Neal was my great great grandad). I was lucky enough to visit someone last week who thinks he has a couple of photographs of George, from the time he was working for the Beaumonts of Coleorton Hall. The first is a group photograph taken in 1919 of all the estate staff - about 1,000 people. I had seen one of these before (there is a copy on the wall of a local pub), but the gentleman I met had had the photograph digitally enhanced and enlarged - it was amazingly clear. He asked me if I could seen anyone on it I recognised. I've never seen a picture of George Neal, although I know there was one on the wall of my great grandma and granddad's house in Thringstone and my dad had told me he had a very fine beard! I studied the picture and found someone who looked just like my granddad. The person I met with told me this was the man he had identified as George Neal. He then showed me another photograph which was beautiful - a real chocolate box picture which he believes to be George, his wife Rebecca Ann, their daughter Fanny and possibly George's mother in law. They are all very smartly dressed and standing in the idyllic garden of Valley Cottage in Coleorton where the Neal family lived. He also had another photograph which he thought was possibly George and his wife at haymaking some years earlier. Unfortunately the photographs had been given to him on the understanding that he didn't distribute them, but it was a real pleasure to see them, particularly knowing what poverty George had worked his way up from. I've also recently (after not doing any research at all for a while) visited Hinckley Library in Leicestershire, where I found a copy of the original parish record for the marriage of William Neal and Theophilia Elliott in 1795. Interestingly William signed his own name on the register, so must have had some education.
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Oh Lorraine,
I am crying happy tears reading your message.
I so wish that I could see those photos of George. From stories handed down in my family. Ann Neal could read and taught her children. I don't think our George would have become bailiff without some book learning.
Did you get a copy of William and Theophilia's marriage certificate. I don't know much about her but I feel her blood runs in my veins. Some people on my tree are just names and dates but Theophilia (or Theo as I have named her) is someone I feel very close too.
Thank you for telling me of your continued journey into our family history.
Love Ted (Patricia Freeman)
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I know how you feel, I was a bit teary when I saw the photographs. I always felt closer to my grandma's side of the family, she told me so many stories, but granddad never really did. I thought George must have had some education, he certainly couldn't have been a Farm Bailiff without knowing how to read and write, very interesting that he could have been taught by his mum. I didn't get a marriage certificate for William and Theophilia, I don't think they had them at that time, this was a microfiche copy of the original parish register. My next line of investigation is whether William (Theo's husband) was a Methodist. There is a William Neal who was baptised in Chapel Street Hinckley, around 1772, so I'm going to see if they have a copy of the original of that at Hinckley. I understand Chapel Street had a schoolroom attached to it from around 1770.
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Hi both
Wow photos that's fantastic. Which pub are they in? We go over quite a bit I wouldn't mind having a look.
My Nan, Mary Rebecca Neal George's granddaughter always talked about George as someone who had made good and she spoke a lot about the farm, I think most of the rest of the family were down the pit so George was definitely a cut above. It's interesting what you say about identifying with some ancestors, I identify with Ann Neal and use her as an inspiration, she really had to fight to keep her family together and did everything she could to support them with little help from the men in her life! It's interesting what you say about her educating her children, I've got quite a few newspaper articles about her getting charged in the petty sessions with not sending the children to school, instead sending them out to work. I don't know how she managed really, these men seem to go off and marry other girls after having a couple of children with her. Her older sister also had a child out of marriage but she goes on to marry and have a stable life, it must have seemed very unfair to Ann.
I'd be interested to hear if you find out more about Theo I've found her on the 1861 census as Theophia Chrashaw aged 92 but no death cert also I can't find her on the 1851 census and I've tried spelling both names every which way! She certainly lived a long life!
Sarah63 :)
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Hi, the photographs were on the wall of The Angel in Coleorton, but it must be a couple of years since I last visited there. The pictures were a bit dark and grainy, the digitally enhanced one was amazing but I imagine it must have cost quite a bit, so I was very grateful to see it. I've also seen the newspaper articles about Ann Neal not sending her children to school, but it would have been understandable if they'd got nothing to eat unless they worked. I know the names of the fathers of her first 3 children, but not come across any others yet. I'm more than happy to share any information I have but I know some people like to try to find out for themselves, it's part of what makes it interesting. I had no idea Theo lived so long, I've been searching for her everywhere. At first when you find an unusual name you think great, they'll be easy to find, then you see how many different ways it's been spelt ... We did find a possible baptism record for her at Hinckley Library, in the Desford Parish Records, as Theophila Ellet, daughter of William and Anne, baptised 28th June 1772. As the marriage record for Theo and William said they were both of the parish of Desford, this and the non conformist baptism record for William Neal also in 1772 are the most likely ones I've found.
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Hi Lorraine
Thanks for the info about the pub. My great aunt George Neal's grand daughter is still alive and lives over nr ashby and a lot of the family are still over that way so I might drag my mum over to the pub for a look. I know what you mean about Theo and her name spelling! I'd given up on her and was going down and along so looked at all her children and followed them through on the census and there she was living with her daughter Ann. I've been on a mission since to find a death cert but no luck grrrr! It seems both her names can be spelt a zillion ways!
I've got details on Smith and Bevin for the father of Ann Neal's children from newspaper articles and Kenny? (Not sure about him, tho Benjamin does use his name) but no death details for Ann, not sure if I'm looking for Neal or Kenny? Also do you have death details for George Neal b1851? I went to WDYTYA live at the NEC last month but apart from inspiration and sore feet I didn't get any further on. I'm descended down through John Lee Neal, you?
S 🙂
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Hi, I'm descended from George Neal through his son Philip, who married Sarah Wilkins, their youngest son (also Philip) was my granddad. I too have been looking for the burial place of George Neal for some time. I thought I had found a record of his death in 1918, but evidence I've found recently has suggested that this was too early - I've been lent a book called 'Memories of Coleorton' which states that George Bird, son of Rebecca Bird nee Neal, was born in his maternal grandfather's house at Fish Pond Cottages in 1927. There is a memorial bench in Coleorton Millenium Gardens which says he was Farm Bailiff from 1880-1920 (I think he worked for the Beaumonts for that length of time, not always as Farm Bailiff). I think I need to look as some of the original parish records again, as on-line and transcribed information isn't always accurate. Coalville Library has a Local Studies Room with quite a bit of information on microfiche, I'll let you know if I get anywhere!
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I will read all your replies soon - I just want to say thank you and I think we are all related.
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Hi Sarah and Lorraine,
I my grandfather spoke of his grandfather often.
My grandfather Horace Philip Neal emigrated from England to Australia when he was 80 - I was 18 and although we had wonderful times and shared wonderful family stories I wish I had questioned him more.
He talked about George Bird as a friend - told me the stupid things they did together - never realized they were related.
I found a Zipporah Cosher death in a workhouse in 1884 - I thought this might be Theo. It was not in Liecestershire but it was on a direct rail line. I cannot think that George would send her to a workhouse though.
I never found Benjamin - either as the name Neal or Kenny. I searched for him thinking I might find Ann. Do either of you have anymore information than him in 1891?
So my new dear cousins, thankyou for your efforts in finding our ancestors. Maybe one day we will meet,
Love from Ted
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Hi, still looking for a burial record for George Neal - I've been to the library today after being told there was a cross in St. John's churchyard in Coleorton for Rebecca Meadows nee Neal, saying 'reunited with her family'. Apparently there are a number of unmarked burial plots near this. I think Rebecca may be the daughter of Willoughby Neal, who died in a car accident. I have found today burial records for Willoughby (in 1928), and his brother Frederick (in 1914), and also for a John Lea Neal, aged 7, in 1927. These are all in the Coleorton Parish Registers. But nothing yet for George or Rebecca. I thought I would try the baptism records and was about to give up but there they all were - baptised 13th April 1889, children of George and Rebecca Neale, Catherine (15), Willoughby (10), Philip (8), Fanny Coley (5), John Lea (3), and Frederick. Father's occupation is given as labourer, living at 'the row of houses by the pond, St. George's [parish].' They were baptised by William Beresford Beaumont, who was rector of St. Mary's Church, Coleorton. As the area of Rotton Row, where they were living, was at various times parts of the villages of Coleorton, Whitwick, and Thringstone, I'll look at parish records of surrounding churches as well, to see what I can find.
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Hi Lorraine and Ted
Lorraine I think you are right about Rebecca Meadows, my mum remembers willoughby's daughters, they used to visit my Nan with their mother after willoughby died. I think Rebbecca died in Dec 1917, there is a death in Ashby for an Ann Rebecca Neal b1849, but I need to send for the death cert to check (I know she was baby used as Ann Rebbecca Coley). The John Lea d1927 aged 7 was the son of John Lea 1885-1967 and my Nan's brother he was known as Jack, all this calling children after parents in some ways helps you confirm things but in others is confusing. The Lea in John Lea is the maiden name of Ann Rebecca Coley's mother Catherine Coley nee Lea. John Lea had another child Vera who also died in childhood in 1922 aged 5. Thanks for all the baptism info. Keep digging 🙂
Ted I've got Ann and Benjamin Neal living as Kennys with a James Kenny in the 1891 census but nothing after that, though I will check again with fresh eyes.
My Nan used to tell us "Mrs Bird stories" when we were little in the 60's she said Mrs Bird was a relative but I'm not sure of the actual connection. My Nan, Mary Rebbeca and her father John Lea Neal both had red hair and Mrs Bird would tease my Nan that her mother had left her out I the rain and she'd gone rusty! Both my mum, my sister and I have red hair do found these stories funny, my daughter also has red hair, do either of you have red hair in the family? My Nan always said it came down the Coley side.
I'm off to do more hunting, I envy you Lorraine being so local to it all, I'm not far away in Birmingham but somehow there's never time for me to spend a day trawling round grave yards/record offices.
Take care both
Sarah
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Hi Trisha and Lorraine
I think I've found Theophilia Neal on the 1851 census!!
I'd got her on the 1841 census as Theodica Crosher living with son William Neal in Newbold Verdon and on the 1861 census as Theophia Chrashaw living with her daughter Ann Spencer but had given up looking on the 1851 census.
Anyway went back to basics and searched for anyone living in Leic born in Desford around 1769 and amongst the results was a Felos Evoshew living in Newbold Verdon. That cannot even be a name I thought! When I look at the record I think it's Felas Croshaw so could Felas be a spelling for philia? And Croshaw a spelling for Crosher? I'm thinking yes, based on an ancestry course I've completed which covered spelling names as they sounded and based on different accents etc. Anyway I had to tell someone who might be interested as I'm struggling to get my lot to grasp how exciting it is having a break through when you've hit a brick wall! Hope you're both well
S X
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This is really interesting - very possible it could be her, particularly being in Newbold Verdon. Is she living with anyone else, or are there address details for Newbold Verdon? Well done you - persistence does pay off! I know that only too rare feeling when you find something exciting, having spent many many hours going through records and finding nothing. Trouble is, once you're addicted, you really can't stop! Best wishes, and thanks for keeping us updated.
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She's living on her own - no address noted and is listed as a pauper
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Hi, I've had a look on the Leicestershire Villages website, Newbold Verdon have a complete transcription for everyone living there at the time of the 1851 census. They have her there, named as Helan Crowshaw, a widow aged 80, a pauper. I'm guessing from the number of different interpretations of her name it must be very difficult to read but I think it must be our Theophilia. Very possible if you think 'Crosher' could be pronounced as 'Crowsher'. I don't know what my chances are of finding a death record for her, but I will check the parish records as soon as Hinckley Library reopens (closed for refurbishment at the moment), if they still have the records there after their reorganisation. I assume that the census records are arranged geographically, do you know if this was the case? If so, she appears to be quite close to a Halifax House. There is still a Halifax Farm in Newbold Verdon, I'll try to find out if this is the same one or the same site. If you want to take a look at the census records, I Googled 'Newbold Verdon census' and they came up on the Leicestershire Villages website under family history (they're on an excel spreadsheet).
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I've had another look at the census image and can see why they went for Helan and yes if she couldn't spell her name it was reliant on the census numerator to put down their version of what they heard. When I first came across her I thought great an unusual name she'll be easy to find! How wrong I was! I don't think I've got her name spelt the same way twice!
Re: the layout of census, experience of other ones tell me they are generally laid out geographically so you can often identify locations of houses maps.nls.uk might help with this. It would be great to find a death record, goodness knows what name to look under! Keep hunting!
S x
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Wow everyone ----- Wow Wow Wow!
I am amazed she is still popping up when she wishes too.
I came back to this site and this thread because of a conversation with my sister.
I have just started my summer/Christmas holidays. So I will be definitely looking into this further.
Thank you so much, Love Trisha
PS I doubt she would have had a head stone but my brother and sister are both heading to England in 2017 - it would be wonderful to visit her grave.
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Hi - I have been spending far too much time on the computer recently as Find My Past released Leicestershire records on-line last month. I have found a number of interesting things, including a positive record of the burial of George Neal of Fish Pond Cottages on 10th September 1918 in Coleorton. I think he is almost certainly buried in a grave with no headstone at St. John's Chapel in Coleorton, where there are a number of unmarked grave plots near the grave of Rebecca Meadows nee Neal. Unfortunately the details of who was buried where at St. John's was destroyed (after a scandal where someone was allegedly buried in the wrong plot), so we are unlikely to ever know for sure unless someone in the family still knows by word of mouth. Still no record of Theodesia though, but still looking. Trishia - I have found the original parish record for the marriage of your grandma and granddad, my Uncle Lol and Aunt Maggie - if you would like me to send you the PDF let me have an e-mail address and I'll forward it to you. Best wishes to everyone. Lorraine
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Well done Lorraine, I didn't know FindMyPast had released the Leicestershire records I fear I'm about to loose my half term holiday to research :D . I went to st Johns with my parents last September so I know where you mean re the unmarked graves. I will ask my gt aunt who is George Neal's granddaughter (though she was born long after he died) she may know though she does get confused these days. We need to find what happened to Theodosisa, I have sessions searching but haven't got any further, you'd think looking for someone over 90 when they died would narrow it down!! Anyway happy hunting Lorraine and hope your Ok, same to you Trisha, I'm heading over to the FindMyPast website to loose a few hours, I mean do some research. Sarah x
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Sarah, you have my sympathies, why is no one warning people how addictive this is? Having all those lovely original parish records means I almost feel obliged to have a look through them, just to see if I recognise anyone. I went through Desford burials yesterday between 1861 and 1872 but unable to find Theo, although I think I did find her daughter Ann Spencer there, who was buried on 2nd November 1866 aged 70 years. Could Theo have outlived her daughter? I also checked Market Bosworth burials for the same period, in case she was in the work house, but no sign there either. I keep trying different searches, if anything comes of it I'll let you know. Best wishes - Lorraine
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Lorraine THANK YOU SO MUCH I will PM you.
I have written this post about 5 times but my ramblings would be better as a PM
Hi Sarah, we will find Theodosia - (one day we will know how to spell her name)