RootsChat.Com
Ireland (Historical Counties) => Ireland => Dublin => Topic started by: Xotan on Friday 02 July 10 14:35 BST (UK)
-
Would anyone have any information on Sir Patrick Shortall and his wife (my Great Aunt) Mary (Polly). I don't have very much information on him, but here are the snippets from my recollection of the very rare references among the grown ups, when I was a child.
You will see why there were so few references
- He lived at 47 Hardwicke Street, Dublin.
He was a local politician, scheduled to be next Unionist Lord Mayor of Dublin, but Sinn Fein swept the boards in 1918
He was a womaniser, which led to Polly's suicide. This knowledge came to me from Polly's niece shortly before she (the niece) died
Polly and Patrick had sons who may have emigrated to Canada[
[li]
If anyone can provide any information, or suggest any lines to follow, I would be most grateful.
Xotan
-
There's a Shortall family living at 47 Hardwicke Street on the 1911 census - is that them ?
Huband Patrick age 39, a builder, wife Mary age 37 and 4 children.
Shortall family (http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Dublin/Rotunda/Hardwicke_St_/32011/)
Shane
-
Thom's 1914 includes a reference to the same name and address :
Hardwicke Street
47 - Patrick Shortall, builder, decorator, and sanitary engineer
Shane
-
Thanks Shanew. That is indeed the family. I note that there are sons, and that Patrick was a builder.
I am particularly interested in finding out some more about Mary (Polly), but also about Patrick, especialy dates of death and place of burial. The Glasnevin Cemetery site yielded nothing. Clearly I need more information for research there. I have no reason to think that they would have been buried elsewhere, although that possibility always remains.
Patrick's career, susequent to his defeat in the 1918 general election is a big mystery, and the death/suicide of Polly is something i would like to have more information on. I am only too aware that I have one side of the story.
But thanks again for your help!
Xotan
-
They seem to be gone from the Hardwicke St address by 1927 - in Thom's of that year number 47 is listed as a Mrs. Mary J. Lyons. I dont see a listing for Patrick in the Trades index of that year either.
I've just seen more details on Patrick in the Trades index for 1914 :
P. Shortall, builder, decorator & sanitary engineer
42 York Street, 18A Temple St North [business addresses]
res. 47 Hardwicke St (also gives a phone number... )
Shane
-
Mrs Mary Lyons is in 47 Hardwicke St in 1922 Thoms.
his business is in 18-18a Temple St (Shortall and Co Ltd)
and it looks as if he lives there ... Shortall, Sir P., T.C.
not in 42 Y0rk St
Goog*e "sir patrick shortall" ... maybe you have? 42 results .. some look interesting-ish!
eadaoin
-
Thanks Eadaoin.
There is some interesting stuff there indeed! I am working through thel links.
-
Well now, you're in luck and so am I by the looks of things.
Mary (Polly) Coyle would have been my Grandfathers maternal Aunt (I'm not great on the ould generational terminology yet). I have a good bit of info on the Coyles but not so much directly on Polly or Pat.
Polly died on 20MAY1914. They were married in 1899.
Let me know (by PM I guess or this could turn into a very long thread) what information in particular you are looking for and I'll fill in what blanks I can.
z
-
Welcome to Rootschat. Once you've made 2/3 posts you'll be able to use PM system.
-
Sorry, just noticed the bit about the address - my records show that they lived in 47 Hardwicke Street from 1904 to 1914 - presumably he moved in or around the time of her death.
-
Hi,
I have a James Patrick Shortall born Dublin 1901 immigrated to New York ont he 6th July 1931 on the boat Adriatic. He states he is a Salesman and last lived in New York but immigration document happened in Washington.
I have a Patrick J Shortall born Dublin 1902 Arriving on the Majestic to Washington. He is listed as a Electrical Engineer. Arrived 1930 24th June.
I have him again Patrick Shortall born Dublin 1902 Living in 15702 Fergusion Ave, Detroit and Electrical Engineer... Same Patrick as above.. arrived again in 1947.
I have a Dermot L Shorthall going to the states arriving 3rd May 1955 and he is going to 15702 Fergusion Ave, Detroit.
Nothing for a Frank.
Ann Marie
-
Hi Ann Marie,
Thanks for that information. There was a John and a Dermot born to Sir Patrick and Lady Mary Shortall. I note that Patrick and Dermot go to the same address, so that ties Patrick in as well.
At this stage I have lots of pieces of information so I need to start setting it all down in a coherent format, but the heat here, a sniffling cold, and the imminent arrival of visitors will probably mean I don't get started on this for a few days. Wednesday is Bastille Day, so I'll also have to get the guillotine and tumbrel out and give them a polish! ;)
Once again, my thanks for this valuable info.
David
-
Hi. My partner (in Ireland) is the grandson of Matthew Shortall brother of Sir Patrick Shortall. Their parents were James Shortall and Marcella Dunne. I am trying to trace either their father's or their mothers birthplace. I think their father was from Kilkenny. Anyone any information. To get birth certs of parents we need parish in Ireland where born.
I have details of James and Marcell's marraige if interested.
Thanks
Bernie
-
Bernied,
Sorry I don't have any information, however, I know that Sir Patrick Shortall had a brother, John Francis, and architect and member of the RIAI. He was born 1889 and died 1946. I was not aware of any other sibling, but that certainly does not exclude one. In fact it opens up another avenue to be explored.
There is mention of Sir Patrick's firm in connection with the raid on the Magazine Fort at this link
http://bluwiki.com/go/Magazine_Fort_Attack
I know it's not much, and not directly connected with your question, but sometimes pursuing a branch can point the way more pertinent information .
Certainly I would be interested in John and Marcella as they are also the parent of Sir Patrick and therefore link indirectly to my family.
Good luck with your search
David.
-
Bernied,
I've managed to a date for Lady Mary (Polly) Shortall's death - 20th May, 1914, and the burial is in Glasnevin. the odd thing is that hers is the only interment in that grave. It seems odd that Sir Patrick would not have been buried there in due course. Obviously there are reasons why this should be so, and these could prove interesting.
David
-
Xotan
I see from Thoms 1928 that a Lady Shortall was resident at No.66 St.Lawrence Road , Clontarf. Any use?
Regards Quaxer
-
Hello Quaxer,
Thanks for you posting.
This is very interesting. Since Polly Shortall died in 1914 in circumstances yet to ascertained, and her husband is not in the same grave, it seems to point to his re-marrying. His new wife would automatically become Lady Shortall.
Of course there are too many pieces of the puzzle still missing to be able to get a proper idea of what happened, but it is another step towards filling in the gaps.
I will be in Ireland shortly and will be making a point of visiting Glasnevin to visit and photograph the graves. Can anyone tell me if the Cemetery Authorities sell a decent sized map showing where graves are located? Their computerised printdown provides references, but one needs a proper plan to lead one to these references. The map that is provided on the website is not very helpful except for the casual visitor who wants to visit the graves of the great and good. None of my family were particularly great, and probably not so good either! ;). [I jest.] Even so, an inadequate plan could lead to a lot of lost time, which is something that I don't really have. I can probably give no more than half a day to my visit.
Once again, many thanks!
David.
-
Hi all,
I found this thread while researching my ancestors. I am a grandson of Matthew Shortall, as mentioned above, Matthew was a brother of Sir Patrick Shortall.
I remember being told by my Aunty Cella (Marcella Shortall) that he was a "Grand Uncle" but that is as much information that was forthcoming.
I am also interested in tracing the birthplace of my great grandad "James Shortall" I believe this to be in Kilkenny but am not sure about that.
Any information or update would be very helpfull,
Thanks in advance.
-
Hello Dubblinn,
Sorry to be so late getting back. I was in Ireland and and at present am travelling home. I should be there tomorrow, with luck.
I will be happy to let you have such information as I have, but it's mainly about Sir Patrick S, his wife, Polly, being my great aunt.
While in Ireland I discovered Polly's grave, and contrary to the report I got from Glasnevin, Sir P IS buried there. He died in 1925. Also his son James is there. James died (if I remember correctly) in 1932. I took a picture and can let you have a copy, if you wish. I just need a few days to settle in and look after such matters as may have arisen during my absence.
Regards
David.
-
Thanks for the update. Sorry I missed your visit to Dublin but I only found this site very recently.
I was always told by my elders that Sir Pat was a Grand Uncle but that is all I can remember with certainty
My grandad Matthew Shortall is the line I am most interested in at present, but as Matthew and Sir Pat were brothers? I am also interested in any information about Pat and the other brothers (Grand Uncles).
I need a copy of Matthews birth cert. before I can be absolutely sure I am dealing with the same family. The reason for this is because I cannot put Matthew in the same place as Sir Pats mother 'Marcella' re; 1901 census. According to the 1901 census returns made by Marcella Shortall (42 York Street) Matthew is not mentioned? he should be about 13/14 years old then and I would have expected him to be at home with his mother? Matthew is living at 1 Ennaville Terrace in the 1911 census.
I have a little information about my Great Grandad James Shortall. He was married to Marcella Dunne in Dublin on 7th May 1871. His father (My great great grandad) is also mentioned on that wedding cert as Patrick Shortall. The address given for James is 33 Clarendon Street Dublin.
It appears that the Shortalls did not move very far from the area west of St. Stephens Green.
My father Andrew (born 1916) lived in Aungier Street before moving to Donnycarney (Nth. Dublin) in about 1948/49.
Looking forward to further updates.
Francis (Frank)
-
Hello again Dubblinn.
Home at last, and I have had a chance to download the photos I took when in Ireland. I am including here one that may be of interest to you. It is of the Shortall grave in Glasnevin. Also a portrait shot of Polly and Pat. It's a very old one, getting on for a hundred years or maybe even more. I have done my best with restoring it on the computer, but it would require an expert's attention.
I'm not sure if any of this provides information that will be of direct use to you in your search.
BTW, just in case you were not aware, Sir Ptk. lived in 47 Hardwicke Street, next door to my grandparents, who lived in No. 46. As I mentioned earlier in the thread, Polly and my grandmother were sisters.
Regards,
David
-
Thanks for posting the photos. I think that is the first time I have seen a picture of Sir Pat and his wife Mary. The grave looks in good condition. One thing, I am a bit confused as to whether Sir Pats mother (Marcella) is buried there or not?
Sorry if I gave the impression that I thought you were a descendant of the Shortalls, but I am aware of your connection to Mary (Polly) from the previous posts.
Frank
-
Hello Dubblinn,
We are not really of the same stock, but that was never an impediment when I was a kid in Dublin. Everyone was 'uncle'or 'aunt'. So don't let a technicality of descent bother you.
If you read the headstone again, you will see that it does specifically mention Sir Pat's mother. However, although it gives a date of decease, it does not mention her name, which is a bit odd. So there can be no question but that she is interred in the same grave.
Sorry, but I have no other information on the Shortalls.
-
Headstone is a bit hard to read but I can't see that it says the mother is actually interred there so don't assume she is.
-
Headstone is a bit hard to read but I can't see that it says the mother is actually interred there so don't assume she is.
I agree, hence the confusion as to why Sir Pat should mention his mother in this manner and without her name, very strange.
At least I have the date of her death and so I can get the death cert etc. I would think that the cemetery records will give me the information as to who exactly is interred there? I will check it out ASAP.
Frank
-
Hello Dubblinn,
We are not really of the same stock, but that was never an impediment when I was a kid in Dublin. Everyone was 'uncle'or 'aunt'. So don't let a technicality of descent bother you.
If you read the headstone again, you will see that it does specifically mention Sir Pat's mother. However, although it gives a date of decease, it does not mention her name, which is a bit odd. So there can be no question but that she is interred in the same grave.
Sorry, but I have no other information on the Shortalls.
No problem Zotan. I do agree it is a bit odd that Sir Pats mothers name is not inscribed on the headstone, makes me think that she is not interred there. I will investigate this further.
Also taken from the inscription Sir Pats son James died very young at only 31yrs old.
Frank
-
Wonder if this could be Sir Patrick's mother? 9 children with 7 alive.
www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Dublin/Mansion_House/York_Street__Part_of_/79710
(son Henry also a builder)
There's a death in Oct./Dec.1915 Dublin registration district for a Marcella Shortall (born c1851)
Here's Marcella and other children in 1901-
www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Dublin/Mansion_House/York_Street/1344171
For reference here's Sir Patrick in 1911-
www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Dublin/Rotunda/Hardwicke_St_/32011
-
7 May 1871 St. Andrew's (R.C.), Dublin: James SHORTALL of 33 Clarendon St., son of Patrick, married Marcella DUNNE of 38 King St., daughter of Matthew Dunne.
Also- son Patrick Matthew bapt. 1872, son James Francis bapt. 1875
See www.irishgenealogy.ie
-
See that James and Marcella, etc. already mentioned earlier in thread-
My partner (in Ireland) is the grandson of Matthew Shortall brother of Sir Patrick Shortall. Their parents were James Shortall and Marcella Dunne. I am trying to trace either their father's or their mothers birthplace. I think their father was from Kilkenny. Anyone any information. To get birth certs of parents we need parish in Ireland where born.
I have details of James and Marcell's marraige if interested.
... I know that Sir Patrick Shortall had a brother, John Francis, and architect and member of the RIAI. He was born 1889 and died 1946. I was not aware of any other sibling, but that certainly does not exclude one. In fact it opens up another avenue to be explored.
Certainly I would be interested in John and Marcella as they are also the parent of Sir Patrick and therefore link indirectly to my family.
-
Zotan,
could you PM me the location details of the grave in Glasnevin? I will go to the cemetry and get more information on who is interred there. From the photo I can't make out for sure as to the date of Sir Pats mothers death, being either 1916 or 1915?
aghadowey,
I believe Marcella Shortall at 42 York St. is Sir Pats mother. The only thing is she is 54yrs old in the 1911 census and 45yrs in the 1901 census, this puts her birth date in 1856/57. This does not tally with the death cert info, being born 1851? Any ideas?
-
Sorry Dubblinn et al.
I have the advantage of being recently at the grave, so the inscription seems fairly clear to me, whereas I have no doubt it is anything but to others. Here is the Inscription:
"Erected by Sir Patrick Shortall in memory of his beloved wife MRY (Polly) who departed this life 20th May 1914, May she rest in peace, Also in memoryof his beloved mother who departed this lifeon 13th Novr 1916 (?). Sir Patrick Shortalldied 27th June 1925
And his son James Shortall died 19th(?) Oct 1931."
The grave reference/location is TH 33.5 ST PATRICK'S
Enter the main gate and turn left along an inner path (so that you can see taller buildings outside) until you arrive level with a red brick house on the road outside the wall. About this point you will see TH on the inside of the wall. It is then simply a matter of counting the graves from the wall until you reach the Shortall memorial. It is partially obscured by a bush, but still quite visible and easy to locate.
Beware the computer printout from Glasnevin. It gave me only one name - that of Polly. But as is evident, there are others there as well.
Pat's mother's year of death seems more like 1915 to me. I took two shots, and certainly the top of the final figure seems parallel to the line of writing, whereas a 6 would show a curve. This is more evident on one shot than on the other. Nevertheless, it is something that should be checked out. I was short of time and, in truth, more interested in Polly and Pat than any of the others. If you do check it out, please post it. Sorry for being less than thorough.
-
The date for Sir Patrick's mother's death looked like 1915 in the photo (it was the first part of the inscription that was difficult to read).
I wouldn't worry too much about Marcella Shortall's age varying from census to census to death registration.
-
Yes indeed, Aghadowney. I agree. An exact year of birth seems not to have been really important until perhaps the the latter quarter of the 19th century, and even then, it would apply only to those born from then on.
Dubblinn,
I think you would find it an interesting experience to visit Glasnevin, if you can make the time. Be aware, though, that it is no longer possible to bring a car into the place - understandable as there are lots of works going on and many pathways are closed off. The reception building/museum also has a restaurant where the food was excellent. I was able to sit outside and eat as it was a really lovely day. Sadly I didn't have enough time to visit the museum, but that will be a pleasure for my next trip to Ireland.
Also, be aware that Dublin City Council is a charging for parking on the Finglas Road. This is relatively new. I found parking there considerably more expensive than here in France. Cash-sucking vampires in DCC at work, no doubt!
-
I have just come from a visit to Sir Patricks grave in Glasnevin. I made an enquiry at reception as to who was interred in TH 33.5, Section St. Brigids. The following is taken from the register:
Mary Shortall, Age:42 of 47 Hardwicke St. Died: 20/05/1914. Funeral on 22/05/1914.
Marcella Shortall, Age:64. of 42 York St. Died: 13/11/1915. Funeral on 14/11/1915.
Patrick Shortall, Age:56. of 66 St. Laurences Road. Died: 27/06/1925. Funeral on 30/06/1925.
These are all the names registered at that grave, i.e. TH33.5.
The receptionist did say that TH34 was also connected to TH33.5 but could not say as to why? One other piece of information is the name O'Reilly are connected with TH34.
This additional information and the name O'Reilly mean nothing to me as I never heard the name mentioned in connection with any of the Shortalls.
Also, according to the inscription on Sir Pat's headstone James Shortall is buried there, but there is no mention of him on the register? puzzling indeed.
Frank
-
Also, according to the inscription on Sir Pat's headstone James Shortall is buried there, but there is no mention of him on the register? puzzling indeed.
The gravestone inscription does not say the people listed are buried there. I can't see a death registration for son James Shortall in civil index (perhaps someone else could check in case I've missed it) but it's possible James died and was buried elsewhere.
-
Good morning all,
I just chanced on this thread. I am interested in Shortall family history for some time, primarily in eastern Laois but have collected lots of Shortall information from various places. Sir Patrick Shortall attracted my attention some years ago because of our shared name and his title. A lot of the info I have has already been included in the thread but I include some extra snippets.
Wife Mary (Polly) died at her residence 20 May 1914.
Freemans Journal Sat May 23 1914 - Report of the funeral of Mrs. Shortall, wife of Patrick Shortall TC.
Mourners - Patrick Shortall. Masters James, Patrick, Dermot and Frank sons.
Messrs Patrick Coyle sen father and Patk Coyle brother.
James, Matthew, Barry and John Shortall and Peter Monks PLG brothers in law.
Wreath from Rotunda Ward Branch UIL to Councillor Patrick Shortall
Will : Letters of Administration granted to Patrick Shortall on 27 October 1914. Value Ł250.
Glasnevin Records Garden PE 180
Mary Shortall 17 Mountjoy Square, Dublin
Catholic. Carpenter’s wife. Died 16 October 1918 age 28. Pneumonia.
Informant – Nicholas Irwin, 22B Nicholas St., Dublin
Henry Shortall, 17 Mountjoy Square, Dublin
Catholic. Carpenter. Widower. Died 28 October 1918 age 29. Mater M. Hospital. Pneumonia.
Informant – Nicholas Irwin, 22B Nicholas St., Dublin
Irish Times Archives
Death Notices – October 28 1918 at Mater Hospital of pneumonia following influenza Harry 3rd eldest son of the late James Shortall of Kilkenny and late Marcella Shortall of 43 York Street and beloved brother of Sir Patrick Shortall – deeply regretted by his sister and brother. RIP
Election December 1918
Clontarf Parliamentary Division: Richard J Mulcahy (Sinn Fein) 5974
Sir Patrick Shortall (Nationalist) 3228
Thom’s Irish Who’s Who 1923
SHORTALL: Sir Patrick Knt (1916)
High Sheriff of City of Dublin 1915. T.C.. Member Royal Institute of Public Health.
Eldest son of the late James Shortall, Kilkenny. Bo 1872.
m. Mary eldest dau. of late P. Coyle Dublin.
Res. 65 St. Laurence Rd., Dublin.
Glasnevin Cemetery: St. Brigid’s section - TH 33.5 , 34 St. Patrick’s - 7 burials in plot.
Erected by Sir Patrick Shortall in memory of his beloved wife Mary (Polly) who departed this life on 20 May 1914. May she rest in peace. (Glasnevin records – 47 Hardwicke St., Dublin. Age 42. Cancer.)
Also in memory of his beloved mother who departed this life on 13th Nov 1915. (Glasnevin records – 42 York St., Dublin. Age 64.)
Sir Patrick Shortall died 27th June 1925 and his son James Shortall died 19th Oct 1931.
Death Notice: Irish Independent and Irish Times Monday June 29 1925
Shortall (Clontarf) - At 66 St. Lawrence Rd., Clontarf, Sir Patrick Shortall aged 55. Deeply regretted. RIP. Funeral strictly private.
Obituary: Irish Independent and Irish Times Monday June 29 1925
Death of Sir Patrick Shortall. Last Saturday, Sir Patrick Shortall died at his residence Frankford, St. Laurence Rd., Clontarf after a very brief illness.
The deceased was a building contractor. He started business in a small way in York St. and by industry and energy, became a large and successful contractor, employing at times hundreds of men.
He was born in Dublin 55 years ago and he occupied a prominent position in the business life of the city. For many years, he represented the Rotunda Ward in the Corporation. He was High Sheriff 1915-16 and was knighted in 1916 for his services in connection with the Civic Exhibition, which was held in 1916.
In 1918, in the Irish Party interest, he contested the Clontarf Parliamentary division but was defeated. He was a Governor of the Meath Hospital and took an interest in charitable institutions. He was a self made man.
The Irish Times Wednesday October 21, 1931 Death of Mr. J.P. Shortall
From Reuter’s Correspondent – New York, Tuesday
The death is announced of James Patrick Shortall, the eldest son of the late Sir Patrick Shortall of Dublin.
He was aged 31 and died after an operation for mastoid.
Will Indices NAI – 1932 Shortall James Patrick (95) 12 April – Administration (with the will) of the personal estate of James Patrick Shortall formerly of 66 St Laurence Rd., Clontarf, Dublin and late of 237 W 109 Street, NY, USA of no occupation who died 19 October 1931 granted at Dublin to Dermot Leo Chartered Accountant. Effects Ł254/0/10.Hope this is of interest. Patrick J S
-
Thanks for posting. There is a lot of information there which fills in some gaps in the Shortall family history.
One nugget of information is the name given to Sir Pats house on St. Laurences Road as "Frankford" Frankford is a place name in Co. Kilkenny. This could be the birthplace of Sir Pats father James.
-
The Irish Times contains but one entry for Patrick Shortall in York Street at No.42,namely the birth of a child on 25th July 1900.
Regards Quaxer
-
Dubblinn,
It would be interesting if the house name gave information on where in Kilkenny his father came from.
I attach an obituary from the Irish Builder that I came across somehow some time ago - I don't remember how now.
Also, I got a copy from the National Library of an election flier from 1910 "To the Electors of the Rotunda Ward". I expect there are NLI copyright issues but I could send you a copy if you were interested.
PJS
-
Hello Kilrory,
What a wealth of information you have provided! Thank you very much indeed.
I know now that my great aunt Polly died of cancer, and that the suicide story told me by my late aunt is unfounded. That is a relief. Also it disposes of any injustice to Pat Shortall, and that has to be good.
You have also furnished with information about my great grandfather - my grandmother's father - Patrick Coyle, confirming that he was still living in 1914, and that he died before 1923 [his year of birth was 1847.]
And we now know where Pat Shortall moved to when he left Hardwicke Street: St. Laurence's Road, Clontarf.
I am still in the dark about the lady who lived at this address in 1922 and called herself 'Lady Shortall', as reported by Quaxer, as there is no indication that Pat remarried after Polly's death. Does anyone have any ideas?
David
-
Sir Pat must have descendants still living in Dublin, but I don't know for certain as to who or where. Trying to trace one of them might be a good idea?
-
Hello again Dubblinn,
Initially that seems like a good idea, but family lore was that the offspring emigrated to (possibly) Canada. There was a posting shat showed some Shortall males went to Detroit, which is almost Canada - if you check back you will see it - however the dates seem not quite right. So, there well may be Shortall descendants in Ireland/Dublin.
My problem is this, I am not sure how I would react if someone from another branch of the family, one connected only through marriage even, were to make contact with me. As far as any Shortalls would be concerned, our point of juncture would be my great grandfather, Polly's father. So there is, even at my generation, a wide gap in the branches of the tree.
I think that the main reason I would want to make such a contact would be to find out more about Polly, my great aunt, and perhaps let them have a copy of the photos of her, and the one of her and Pat. But then, they might not be interested... Genealogy is not everyone's cup of tea.
Besides, I would have to check the RootsChat rules on this.
All the same, thank you very much for for your suggestion. I will certainly bear it in mind, and may act on it at a later stage.
-
Would anyone have any information on Sir Patrick Shortall and his wife (my Great Aunt) Mary (Polly). I don't have very much information on him, but here are the snippets from my recollection of the very rare references among the grown ups, when I was a child.
You will see why there were so few references
- He lived at 47 Hardwicke Street, Dublin.
He was a local politician, scheduled to be next Unionist Lord Mayor of Dublin, but Sinn Fein swept the boards in 1918
He was a womaniser, which led to Polly's suicide. This knowledge came to me from Polly's niece shortly before she (the niece) died
Polly and Patrick had sons who may have emigrated to Canada[
[li]
If anyone can provide any information, or suggest any lines to follow, I would be most grateful.
Xotan
-
hi marieac...
just wondering if something went wrong when you were trying to reply, as your message only contains a quote of xotan's earlier message and seem to be missing your response.
To respond to this thread just click the reply button below (looks like this = (http://www.rootschat.com/forum/Themes/history/images/english/reply.gif) ) and enter your query or response
Shane
-
hi my mother is niece of sir patrick his brother mathew is her father my grandfather i have been at the grave many times,never new there was so much interest in my mothers family,
-
Sir Pat must have descendants still living in Dublin, but I don't know for certain as to who or where. Trying to trace one of them might be a good idea?
[hi sr patrick is my mams uncel my mam is joan kinsella nee shortall mathew pats brother was her dad my grand dad xx /quote]
-
Hello Betty 225,
As you will see from this thread, Sir Patrick Shortall's wife Mary (Polly) was the sister of my paternal grandmother.
I suppose that this makes us some kind of cousins by marriage, so nice to meet you here!
My grandmother lived next door to the Shortalls. She lived at 46 Hardwicke Street. Her maiden name (and Polly's) was Coyle. their father, Patrick Coyle came from Westmeath (can't say exact location) and seems to have been a haulier of some kind. He survived Polly.
If you have any other details/information or photos, I would be happy to learn it. Please feel free to PM me.
Regards,
David.
-
hi David
i just know that mathew was my mothers father and sir patrick his brother and i know were the grave is as i have been to it many times sir patricks son is not in that grave my mother told me anyway,there would be other relatives as matthew shortall was a widow when he met my grand mother and he had other children Marcella (known as Irelands grace fields) Matty and not sure of the others but they lived near whitefryer st church they would have had children so there are more of us out there!
-
shanew147
Thank you for you advice and aplogies for the delay in getting back to you. (I AM a novice and was just trying to get the 'hang of things').
My main thread is with Xotan and I will pass on my information to him and do hope that some of it might be of interest to you.
Regards,
Marieac
-
Xotan,
Hello to you! I think we have something interesting in common! Firstly, I have to warn you that I am a complete beginner in the realms of geanology and continue to be amazed by the internet's powers!
Just for starters! My Grandmother was Ellen Coyle, Mary (Polly) Coyle's sister. They actually lived in number 15 Hardwicke Street (not next door to the Shorthalls).
Ellen married John Patrick Mulcahy from Tipperary and my father John Patrick was the eldest of their five children. Ellen and Mary were friends. Mary attended the death of Ellen's youngest child Elizabeth in 1911. She died shortly after the 1911 census from dyphteria, aged 3 and a half. I have a book (The Tales of Hans C. Andersen) inscribed by Mary - a present to my father. It reads "to my nephew John from his fond Aunt Polly"/dated 1909.
I know the Shorthall grave in Glasnevin and I visit it irregularly. When I was very young my father mentioned it to me. Retrospectively, I realise this was very important to him because ... his father died at the age of 40 in 1909 and Sir Patrick gave my grandmother the plot next to the Shorthall grave. Both my paternal grandparents are buried there John Patrick Mulcahy, Ellen Mulcahy (nee Coyle) Polly's sister and two of their children Elizabeth, the baby I mentioned above and Patrick.
I know very little (virtually nothing) about the Coyles, only snippets. I learned from a taxi driver in the late 1970's that their home was a 'musical' house.
Best Regards,
Marieac (Colette)
-
Hello Marieac/Colette,
Nice to hear from you. I believe that we are cousins - 2nd cousins, if I have it right. Ellen Coyle (Mulcahy)'s mother is our common greatgrandmother. Her name was Elizabeth and she was married to Patrick Coyle from Westmeath who was a kind of haulier. He was born in the 1840s. I can check on the date and let you know in due course.
Apart from Ellen they had other children: Elizabeth Ann (my grandmother), Lilian and Mary (Polly). This is not in age sequence as I have no idea when they were born, apart from Elizabeth (1875). There seems to have been another sister, if I read a photograph correctly. There was also one boy in the family, Patrick, usually known as Pap.
The Coyles had land 'in the north of the county'. This apparently was the area now known as Cremore. Here there were two dairy farms. Behind Hardwicke Street, on the south side, there were some lanes with small cottages, and it was here that the dairy yard was situated.
There was a very nasty situation in the family over inheritance. The land was left to Pap. Presumably it was expected that the girls would marry and their husbands would look after them. However, they conspired to cut Pap out of their lives altogether. It seems they made some kind of pact to stick together on this. However when Ellie (Ellen) and Elizabeth Ann softened their stance and resumed normal contact with their brother, Lilian held firm. This led to another nastiness. My grandmother never spoke again to her sister, although Lilian lived mere paces away in Dorset Street. This lasted for over 60 years. It is singularly unpleasant, and continued into the Monks line where similar situations were not unknown.
Polly, as you know, died in 1914. Elizabeth Ann on 28 Feb 1960. I have no information on Ellie or Lilian, except that Lilian lived beyond 1960. I kick myself that I did not have the interest or knowledge then to get in contact with her. A lot of valuable family history will have died with her. I do know that she married. The joke was that she changed only one letter of her name - from Coyle to Coyne. Do you know if she had any family? If so, they would be our cousins.
I met Ellie on one occasion when she was visiting my grandmother in 46 Hardwicke Street. I remember her as a lady dressing in black, good carriage, although she was using a cane. Perhaps it was just an accessory... She lived in Connacht Street, in Phibsborough. Apart from the child who died young, she had at least two others - two sons, Patrick and James. I have the vaguest recollection of being with my mother, grandmother Eliz. Ann and the wife of one of the Mulcahy sons in the Phoenix Park. I fell on some steps and this rather grand lady put a sticking plaster on the abrasion that I had sustained. That is the total of my information on the Mulcahy family. Obviously I would be delighted to learn more, especially dates of birth/death/marriages etc.
I think I have dates of death for our Coyle greatgrandparents. I think Patrick would have died about 1920. G.grandmother Eliabeth I think would have died before then. There is no mention of her being present at Polly's funeral in 1914. By any
Pap married a lady called Johanna. I have no further information on him.
The taxi driver was correct about the musical house. Elizabeth Ann played piano, organ and violin, and she had soirées Sunday afternoon/evenings. I have inherited that love of music, although I never managed to learn the violin.
Eliz. Ann's husband was Peter Monks who had a cabinetmaking business in Little Denmark Street (covered now by the Ilac Centre). He died in 1929 so I never met him, being born in the 1940s.
If you like, you can PM me. My material on the family is in a state of disarray at present because I am having the family tree drawn up. I will start rearranging the documents and getting them into coherent sequence again.
In the meanwhile I can tell you that you have other cousins in my family line, one of whom comes here from time to time. But I will not go into this on the open board.
I am delighted to meet you here. Perhaps when I am next in Ireland we can meet and show each other the material we have on the family. I would also be very happy to get to know you in a more personal way than on the Rootschat board.
Xotan/Cousin David
-
Marieac,
Here is a photo of our G.grandmother with her daughters. It was taken in the Isle of Man circa 1895.
Also a photo of Elizabeth Ann's grave.
-
Good morning David,
Thanks you for your wonderful reply;
You sent me a second message - a PM(?) I glanced at it and then it 'disappeared'! Perhaps it was finger trouble with me. As I am not familiar with the workings and rules of Roots Chat, please send the personal contents again - I am most anxious to continue corresponding with you.
Both photographs arrived! Thank you!
To see my great grandmother was quite a shock, in a way. I never ever considered I would find out anything about her at this stage of my life. Which of the girls is Ellen as I think Polly is top left (?) and of course which 'gal' is your grandmother?
Ellen is buried in the Mulcahy plot beside the Shorthalls and she died in December 1963 aged 92.
I am travelling down the country to day to Wexford and I will therefore not be on line again until Sunday evening. I hope you have a happy weekend; I look forward to your details.
Slan,
Colette your cousin!
-
Hello Cousin Colette (I like saying that!),
Re the photo, I reckon that the names relate to position like this
Elizabeth Ann Gt.grandmother Elizabeth ???????
Christine (Lil) Ellen Polly
Of course, I cannot be sure of this, except for Elizabeth Ann. I could not mistake her.
Also, I have sent by PM some other information about the Coyle burials. Not all on the list I received from another cousin have been accounted for, so there is obviously another grave to be located. Most significant on the 'missing' list is greatgrandmother! Another point to bear in mind is that the graves may have inscriptions that could provide invaluable information.
There are no headstones on the graves on either side of Polly's, as I recall. However, if you are making a trip to Glasnevin, please advise me in advance in case I have any further information. I have let you have the grave reference for the one Coyle grave of which I am sure.
Regards
David
-
hi David
i just know that mathew was my mothers father and sir patrick his brother and i know were the grave is as i have been to it many times sir patricks son is not in that grave my mother told me anyway,there would be other relatives as matthew shortall was a widow when he met my grand mother and he had other children Marcella (known as Irelands grace fields) Matty and not sure of the others but they lived near whitefryer st church they would have had children so there are more of us out there!
Hi Betty225,
Sorry for not replying sooner but I did not get any notification email of your post.
I am a grandson of Matthew Shortall (brother to Sir Patrick). Matthew was Born 1887. Married to Alice O'Gorman Nov 1909. Both buried in Deansgrange Cemetry. I don't have any information on his second marriage (as a widower), any more information about his second family would be welcome?
From his 1st marriage he had 2 daughters Marcella and Alice, and 4 sons: Edward (Eddy), Matthew (Matty), Andrew (Andy) and Henry (Harry). Andy is my father. In the photo here-
http://i510.photobucket.com/albums/s343/DubbLinn/Sir%20Patrick/Dad_Grandad_Harry1.jpg are left to right, Andy, Grandad Matthew and Uncle Harry.
You are correct about where they lived, "near whitefryer st church" I believe the address was in Aungier Street, but they also lived elswhere in Dublin, eg.1911 Census: http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Dublin/Mountjoy/Enaville_Terrace/23355/
-
Some more clippings from the Irish Times newspaper concerning Sir Patrick Shortall.
Moderator comment: images removed. These are probably subject to copyright and may not be reposted here on RootsChat.
OK
-
Hello DubbLinn,
Thank you for so generously putting up more material on Sir Patrick Shortall. Every scrap of information fills in another blank in the family history.
I cannot place the Monks that is mentioned in the news clip on the cycling club, I'm afraid, so I will consult with my cousins in Ireland and see if they can make a link to it. it won't be possible to anything just now as I am going away for a few days on Thursday morning, and my diary for tomorrow is really full. Anyway, I hope to meet with the Monks Cousins when I am there in September and compare trees and notes. If anything turns up on my side I will post it here, of course.
I note the very interesting article on the discussion about Ashe. However, I don't see any mention of Sir Pat. Perhaps I have missed it? It's very late here - past 2 am.
For some reason on previous reading of this thread you descent through a brother of Sir P sailed over my head. I suppose that makes us some kind of kin though marriage.
All the best, and again thanks!
-
Sir Pat is now in the article I simply missed the picture, now corrected. and past my bedtime also :)
Frank
-
Hello DubbLinn,
I hope you are nicely rested. I think I managed about 6 hours so I can face the day.
Thank you for including the reference to Sir Patrick Shortall.
On re-reading the clippings this morning I was fascinated by the very vivid reportage. At that time nobody could have seen that five years later the British presence would be gone from Dublin, and so there was a fine balancing act being done between dealing with the British representatives and the increasing urgency of the demands of nationalism. The Lord Mayor and the Aldermen were between the devil and the deep blue sea. The article also brings out the total lack of appreciation of the situation by the Under Secretary. It was fortuitous that Sir Bryan Mahon made the decision to stand down the military guard on the City Hall.
Colette, (Marieac) will be delighted to see this material. She is more closely cued in on the Shortalls than I would be. She is away at present but I will email her about it and she can read it on her return.
Once again, well done! And thanks, of course, too.
David.
Do you know, Frank, if any of Sir Patrick's line are still living?
-
See post above, moderator has axed the pictures :(
It should be OK to transcribe the text and post here? but it will take a bit of time.
-
It might be a good idea to exchange email addresses by Private message. Then you can share recent details, photos etc directly.
Dublin Moderator
-
Thank you Shane for your suggestion. Much appreciated.
David
-
Copyright is a very tricky issue and I dont want to get into any bother with the forum about it. Rootschat have to protect themselves from any legal challenges etc etc. and that is fully understandable.
OK, back to Sir Patrick, I will compile the photos into some order as some are split into many parts to make up a single article. I will try and Photoshop them into a single picture or maybe not as I am not great at using Photoshop. Either way I will let you know how I get on.... ;).
Frank
-
Hi Dubhlinn / Frank,
I have been following the thread. I have collected a lot of Shortall items. I found a Matthew Shortall in the 1901 census as a 13 year old pupil in an Industrial School Kill Ave Kingstown ( see image). I collected Shortall Births, Deaths and Marriages up to 1900 in the past but could not see a Matthew born in Dublin about 1887 - there is one with the "wrong" parents in Thomastown.
Have you got his marriage cert - that should show his father?
Best wishes
Census - College & Boarding School Return (Form G) (http://census.nationalarchives.ie/reels/nai003745055/) (see line 62)
-
I have not gotten around to sorting out Matthews marriage certs but he did marry twice. I believe a cousin of mine has his second marriage cert, but he failed to find the first marriage cert and also his birth cert. I have yet to see the marriage cert myself, so at the moment I cannot elaborate any further on that. His first wife Alice O'Gorman was born in New York, but again I dont know if that is where they met or what the exact circumstances were.
In your reply (No.35) Matthew was in attendance at Sir Patricks wifes funeral.
Also that entry in the 1901 census is most likely our Matthew, it sort of fits into what we were told about his apprenticeship as a carpenter, but not certain.
Sorry but that is all I have at present, still a work in progress.
-
As mentioned previously I am in process of tracing my partner Thomas Shortall's family tree. After a break we are now back to tracing his great grand father ie father of Matthew Shortall (brother of Sir Patrick ).
Matthews and Patrick's parents were James shortall and Marcella Dunne. We have their marriage cert from St Andrews Church Westland Row Dublin dated 7th May 1871. James Shortall was living at 33 Clarendon St Dublin at this time. His parents (Matthews grandparents) were Patrick & Anne from Kilkenny. We know his grandparents were alive at the wedding of James & Marcella in 1871.
Marcella was a widow in the 1901 census. James died 20th July 1893 age 40. He was a tailor. His address at the time was st Michaels' terrace Dublin. We are trying to trace the Kilkenny roots. We need the parish name to get any further.
Also we discovered Matthew my partner's grandfather age 12 was in an industrial school in 1901 in Dublin and despite our best efforts we are unable to discover the reason why. We have Matthews death cert and have visited his grave in Deansgrange Dublin where he is buried with his first wife Thomas's grandmother Alice O'Gorman. According to 1911 census Alice was born in NY. No further information on Alice except she had a sister Mary and her parents were Edward & Mary O'Gorman. She died age 39 in 1928.
We would be grateful for any further info on any of the above.
Regards
Bernie
-
Betty
We have the marriage cert for Matthew Shortall And Mary Doyle who I understand are your grandparents. Unable to attach. They were married on 4th Nov 1934 in the Pro-Cathedral in Dublin.
Bernie
-
hi David
i just know that mathew was my mothers father and sir patrick his brother and i know were the grave is as i have been to it many times sir patricks son is not in that grave my mother told me anyway,there would be other relatives as matthew shortall was a widow when he met my grand mother and he had other children Marcella (known as Irelands grace fields) Matty and not sure of the others but they lived near whitefryer st church they would have had children so there are more of us out there!
Hi Betty225,
Sorry for not replying sooner but I did not get any notification email of your post.
I am a grandson of Matthew Shortall (brother to Sir Patrick). Matthew was Born 1887. Married to Alice O'Gorman about Oct/Nov 1909. Both buried in Deansgrange Cemetry. I don't have any information on his second marriage (as a widower), any more information about his second family would be welcome?
From his 1st marriage he had 2 daughters Marcella and Alice, and 3 sons Matthew (Matty), Andrew (Andy) and Harry. Andy is my father. In the photo here-
http://i510.photobucket.com/albums/s343/DubbLinn/Sir%20Patrick/Dad_Grandad_Harry1.jpg are left to right, Andy, Grandad Matthew and Uncle Harry.
You are correct about where they lived, "near whitefryer st church" I believe the address was in Aungier Street, but they also lived elswhere in Dublin, eg.1911 Census: http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Dublin/Mountjoy/Enaville_Terrace/23355/
Betty
We have the marriage cert for Matthew Shortall And Mary Doyle who I understand are your grandparents. Unable to attach. They were married on 4th Nov 1934 in the Pro-Cathedral in Dublin.
Bernie
-
hi bernie yes your correct they are my grand parents i have been reading all this out to my mother she is loving all this talk about the shortalls. xx
-
hi what a fab photo cant wait to show it to my mother, yes i just posted up about my mam and angela so you can read that, not to sure how this works anyway matthew married my grand mother mary doyle and than they lived on ormond quey b4 moving to finglas.
Hi Betty225,
Sorry for not replying sooner but I did not get any notification email of your post.
I am a grandson of Matthew Shortall (brother to Sir Patrick). Matthew was Born 1887. Married to Alice O'Gorman about Oct/Nov 1909. Both buried in Deansgrange Cemetry. I don't have any information on his second marriage (as a widower), any more information about his second family would be welcome?
From his 1st marriage he had 2 daughters Marcella and Alice, and 3 sons Matthew (Matty), Andrew (Andy) and Harry. Andy is my father. In the photo here-
http://i510.photobucket.com/albums/s343/DubbLinn/Sir%20Patrick/Dad_Grandad_Harry1.jpg are left to right, Andy, Grandad Matthew and Uncle Harry.
You are correct about where they lived, "near whitefryer st church" I believe the address was in Aungier Street, but they also lived elswhere in Dublin, eg.1911 Census: http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Dublin/Mountjoy/Enaville_Terrace/23355/
-
Frank
Thomas and his two brothers Noel and Anthony were delighted with photo you posted. Thanks. Have passed your number to Thomas who will be in touch.
Bernie
-
hi my mother loved the photo she was remembering stuff from years ago like when her brothers peter and paul died as babies they were twins and she thinks it was andy on a push bike took the babies one at a time to glasnevin cematary to the baby plot. tanx for the photo xxx
-
This may be of interest. I discovered this info as part of my research into Matthew Shortall.
Bernie
SHORTALL, JOHN FRANCIS Brother of Sir Patrick and Matthew Born: 1889 Died: 1946
Biography
Architect, of Dublin. John Francis Shortall was born in Dublin in 1889 and was educated at St Mary's College, Rathmines. He became an apprentice in the building firm of his brother, Sir Patrick Shortall, in York Street and then went first to England to work on the Ordnance Survey and then to West Africa as a surveyor of roads in the Public Works Department. In 1914 he joined the Royal Engineers and served in Salonika and West Africa. From 1918 until 1920 he was on the engineering staff of the Royal Air Force in the Middle East. His years abroad permanently damaged his health.
Shortall returned to Dublin in 1920 when he won first place in the competitive examination for the post of assistant architect in the Office of Works. He was promoted to the rank of architect in 1935. He died suddenly on 23 April 1946, leaving a widow, son and daughter. His obituarist in the RIAI Year Book, MARTIN JOSEPH BURKE recalled him as a man of 'exceptionally pronounced individuality'; although he was reserved in manner, intolerant of humbug, and a stern disciplinarian, 'his more intimate friends knew that he frequently suffered much from a malady resulting from his service abroad and understood the extent to which his outlook on life was affected at such times. To such friends and when in better health his kindness of heart and sense of humour, his fund of anecdote and gifts as a raconteur, made him a good companion, and by all such he was held in high esteem.'
RIAI: elected member, 10 December 1937, having been proposed by HARRY ALLBERRY and seconded by GEORGE PATRICK SHERIDAN and Martin Joseph Burke.(1)
RIBA: elected associate, 6 December 1937.(2)
Surveyors' Association: professional associate, 1913; fellow.
Address: Home: 3 Eaton Place, Monkstown, 1937.
References
All information in this entry is from the obituary of Shortall by M[artin] J[oseph] B[urke] in RIAI Year Book (1946), 38-39, and from Jones's transcript from RIAI minutes concerning Shortall's election to RIAI, 1937.
-
Hi
Just to let you know we found James Shortall's (Matthew & Patrick's father) death notice in the paper for July 20th 1893 in Pearse Street Library reading room on microfiche. He is buried in Glasnevin in what is known as " an unpurchased grave". There are three other unrelated people buried with James in the grave. His death notice states "late of Kilkenny". Unfortunately we have not yet traced the Kilkenny roots.
Regards
Bernie
-
Hi
Just to let you know we found James Shortall's (Matthew & Patrick's father) death notice in the paper for July 20th 1893 in Pearse Street Library reading room on microfiche. He is buried in Glasnevin in what is known as " an unpurchased grave". There are three other unrelated people buried with James in the grave. His death notice states "late of Kilkenny". Unfortunately we have not yet traced the Kilkenny roots.
OK, didn't think anyone was still looking, great work. I think tracing any connections back to Kilkenny will be very difficult as there seems to be very little info as to where exactly in Kilkenny the Shortalls came from, and there are lots of Patrick and James Shortalls there.
Keep up the good work
all the best
Frank
Regards
Bernie
-
Hello
I'm not sure if this is still active or if anyone is still on here.
I just came across this thread whilst searching for information on my great grandfather Sir Patrick Shortall.
My father, Niall Shortall, was the son of Francis (Frank) who was his grandfather.
My father passed away 10 years ago but My father has 3 siblings all alive and living in Ireland/England. I also know one of my fathers cousins who lives in Dublin (I'll have to figure out whose son he was of Patricks children).
Interestingly my fatther had and subseqently I inherited the ceremonial suit that Patrick wore when he was High Sherriff of Dublin to official ceremonies. It's a black velvet suit with tails, gorgeous ornate buttons and pantaloons. And an ornate pirate type hat. He was a small stout man as the suit fits my children! There was a ceremonial sword but that has been lost and I cannot locate where it went now. Probably in someone's attic.
So I suppose we are all related in some way.
I live in Dublin, not too far from Glasnevin where they are buried.
Would love to get in touch and learn more about our family history.
All the best
Tara Shortall
-
Just to clarify, my fathers father was Frank and he was the son of Patrick. He lived in Shankill in Dublin, was married and subsequently divorced from Catherine (Kitty) who I knew as a child. I never met Frank as he had passed away before I was born. Frank was a quantity surveyor as was my father Niall.
-
Hi,
Nice to hear from a cousin I never knew I had. Sir Patrick was my Grand Uncle, he was brother to my Granddad Matthew Shortall.
My name is also Francis (Frank) Shortall.
One thing I have not been able to find out is where all Sir Patricks other brothers and sister (he had one sister Teresa) ended up, so nice to have another contact to that side of the family.
You say you are living in Glasnevin, Dublin, that's not too far from where I live, just off the Navan Road, Ashtown at the Phoenix Park.
Hope to hear more about your side of the family.
all the best,
Frank
-
http://centenaries.nationalarchives.ie/centenaries/plic/results.jsp?surname=Shortall&location=&title=&business_name=&search=Search
-
Confirmation of arms to the descendants of John Shortall, of City of Dublin and to his son, John George Shortall of Chicago, U.S.A., with mention of traditional descent from Sir Oliver Shortall who died on March 4, 1635 at Ballelurcan, Co. Kilkenny.
Dublin: National Library of Ireland, Genealogical Office: Ms. 109, pp. 341-2
-
Hi all,
I found this thread while researching my ancestors. I am a grandson of Matthew Shortall, as mentioned above, Matthew was a brother of Sir Patrick Shortall.
I remember being told by my Aunty Cella (Marcella Shortall) that he was a "Grand Uncle" but that is as much information that was forthcoming.
I am also interested in tracing the birthplace of my great grandad "James Shortall" I believe this to be in Kilkenny but am not sure about that.
Any information or update would be very helpfull,
Thanks in advance.
Deceased Surname Shortall
Deceased Forename James
Primary Beneficiary/Executor Patrick Shortall, Gurteen, Co Kilkenny
Date of Death 30 Nov 1893
County of Death Emmettsburgh Palialto Iowa United States Of America
??