RootsChat.Com
England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Sussex => Topic started by: Perri on Monday 05 July 10 19:24 BST (UK)
-
Hello Everyone I am trying to find information on gertrude edith grace smythe (brighton 1911 aged 18) I have the family line but cannot connect her into the tree is their anyone that can help as I have several options on who her mother may have been. I cannot find her birth record. Thank you
-
Hi Perri - who is your Gertrude with in 1911? Does it give her place of birth? Have you found her in 1901? Dazey
-
Hi Dazey, complicated; in 1901 she is with gertrude morse ( i think her grandmother but in 1911 gertrude morse is down as her mother. In 1901 she is with gertrude morse but is down as a boarder. the birthplace is down as islington on one census and camden on the other
-
I'm sorry Perri - I can't find Gertrude Smythe or Gertrude Morse on the 1901 or 1911. Like you, I can't see her birth either. Dazey
-
Hi Perry,
Just trying to make sense of your post.
Are you saying that you have found Gertrude in 1911 in Brighton. and somewhere else on the 1901 census and she has the same name but living with different people.
You say she is 18 which I make birth year of approx 1893. does this sound right
T
-
Hi Gertrude E G Smythe is living with her family.
In 1901 aged 8 she is down as grace and as a boarder the head is Ernestine hart. The older gertrude Smythe aged 54 I know is Ernestine's mother but the older gertrude is listed as relative - location is Ramsgate Kent
In 1911 she is still with the older gertrude but is listed as daughter to her. location - brighton
1892/93 is about the right year but I cannot find any record of a birth
The birth place is listed as Islington in one census and camden on the other - perri
-
Hi
In the GRO Marriages of the September quarter of 1921 you have.
Gertrude E G Smythe married Henry T Hughes in Southwark (Ref 1d 54)
Purchasing that certificate should give an address, and the name & occupation of her father.
By the way, her being registered in 1901 as an 8 year old border in a residential school. Have you looked to see if a sibling was attending the same school?
One suggestion I could make is that her birth was actually registered as the following:
Births September quarter 1892 , Hart Gertrude Grace Lambeth 1d 539
That could indicate that Ernestine Hart was her actual mother, and Gertrude Smythe (who you say was Ernestine's mother) her grandmother.
(Note: The 1901 census only has 1 London born Gertrude Hart of 7-9 years age and she was a Gertrude M Hart)
Roy G
-
Hi, the marriage is correct and I have the certificate. her father is listed as John Grantley Smythe (deceased) who was older Gertrude's husband but I have him as dying the year before G E G smythe was born. So I believe her grandfather has been listed as her father on the marriage certificate.
She was listed as boarder in the private family home in 1901.
I did wonder about Ernestine being the mother of GEG but her husband had died some time before.
Perri
-
Sorry to say this quite so bluntly, but even in the Edwardian days, when one partner died, there was nothing to stop a remaining partner like Ernestine going on to have another relationship without going through the formalities of a marriage. Instead of openly stating any offspring of that relationship was theirs however, a grandparent generally accepted full liability and brought their grandchild up pretending the child was actually theirs.
I agree that nothing is certain until you see the birth certificate, but if there is nothing on record circa 1892 under the name of Gertrude Smythe, the one for Gertrude Hart (Mother Ernestine?) seems a probable solution. You may see it as the loss of a certificate fee, but on the other hand, if it proves positive, your question will be answered.
Roy G
-
I've been trying to do some cross checking to see if I have missed something, but have now got rather confused.
Firstly, I wanted to find the grandmother Gertrude Smythe/Morse with daughter Ernestine on the 1881 census, but drew a blank. I then checked the 1911 Brighton census but there were no no Gertrude Smythes (when there should be two) but plenty of Gertrude Smiths.
I also looked for Ernestine Smythe's marriage but drew a blank there too. So can you help by filling some of the gaps and putting an age and place of birth on Gertrude Smythe the elder and Ernestine to help me find them in the censuses and GRO records?
I did try under the Morse name too, but only came up with a Gertrude with a younger sister called Ernestine
So where am I going wrong?
Roy G
-
Hi
This is what I know
1911 gertrude smythe 67 head born in brighton (g j )
grace smythe 18 stage dancer (this is gertrude edith grace GEG ) born in camden town
Location Newington London
1901 ernestine Hart 36 head
phillippa 16 (ernestines daughter)
dolly 13 (ernestines daughter)
ruby 11 (ernestines daughter)
gertrude smythe 54 (ernestines mother) (g j)
stanley d'eath 10 margaret wyatt 2, norah smith 5 months (three children all down as boarders.
grace smyth 8 (GEG) born islington also a boarder
1891 gertrude i (should be j) smythe 45 head (g j)
agnes 21 (daughter ) also known as charlotte ernestines sister
ernestine hart 27
Phillippa 6 edith 3 (dolly) ruby (all ernestines daughters)
1881 edith morse head 53
gertrude smythe (g j) 34
agnes 11 - ernestines half sister
gertrude chisnall - this is ernestines sister 18
edith chisnall - this is ernestine - edith ernestine chisnall
Perri
-
hello I have just checked my records and I have the certificate for gertrude grace hart. It does not have the right details so i had disregarded it
Perri
-
Thanks for that, unfortunately I have found as you have, that it does not help much.
1881 shows Gertrude senior was an actress, and it is therefore quite possible that Smythe was a ficticious stage name. Furthermore, her age of 34 gives a birth year of circa 1847, but there were only 4 Gertrudes registered as born in Brighton between 1844 & 1848, Gorringe, Mills, McClaine and Mowbray. A Gertrude Young was also born in the Steyning district. So is her first name of Gertrude false as well?
There is no sign of Ernestine with the family in 1881, only the grandchildren who also seem to be destined to be performers.
No Gertrude Smythe born Brighton on my 1901 index, but I do have her and Grace on the 1911. A few other Smythes too that could be Grace's siblings.
Not much help I regret, so I really need to go back over everything and will get back later if I can unravel a little bit more of the family story.
Roy G
-
s this relevant
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~jassie/theatre/glm/index-page47.htm
i wonder how SMYTHE is pronounced ? who would have filled int he census schedule? if it was the Smythes then ok but if it was someone else it could easily be mistaken for Smith
a married womans husband is regarded to be the father of her child whether he is or isn't maybe the vicar / curate etc. made a note in the margin of her bp. if of course she was bp.
have you checked for 'female' smythes births? a name can be added up to a year later but the index is not amended
PS there was a Gertrude SMythe b. 1895 NSW
-
Hi RoyG thanks hope to hear from you later
Hi toni* Thank you for the link it does apply to the family. I will check for female smythe births
Perri
-
I can only deal with this piece meal but a major problem is we are dealing with those in the acting profession who are known to be highly mobile and not very constant when it comes to keeping the names they were given at birth.
Gertrude Grace Smythe born c1892 M Cert lists John Grantley Smythe as her father. That is believed to be false, but if the birth year is correct, John's death in Southam district in the December quarter of 1893 does make that a possibility. (this information conflicts with your earlier findings where you suggest John had died before a possible date of conception)
Until now, and for reasons shown later, John has rightly been thought of as a grandparent, as has his wife, Gertrude Chisswell, who he married in Dover in 1868. However, on the later censuses John's widow Gertrude indicated she was the mother of the Gertrude Grace Smythe born c 1892. Again not impossible, but it would have meant Gertrude Grace Smythe arrived when she already had another daughter from her previous marriage who was also called Gertrude (Gertrude Chisnall junior).
Note on age: Gertrude Smythe senior says she was 54 in 1901 and 34 in 1881 (giving a YOB c1846) making her 46 when Gertrude Grace Smythe was born and about 15 at the time of her first marriage. (Born 1846 married 1861)
The 1881 census has Charlotte Agnes Smythe from the above union who was born in Weymouth 1869, and two other children from Gertrude's previous marriage.
Gertrude Smythe's previous marriage was to Arthur Henry Chisnall (not Chisswell) in Brentford in June quarter of 1861 when she could only have been about 15 (if you go by the census). Her maiden name was given as Gertrude Johnnes Morse.
(could that be Johanna and was she older than she said on the census returns?)
Have you got her as Morse, or them as Chisnall/Chisswell on the 1861 census?
The 1881 census also shows that her earlier children included Gertrude Chisnall (born Kingston district 1862) & Edith Chisnall born Kensington 1864, but makes no mention of an Ernestine whose birth was also c1864. It transpires that Edith prefered to use her second name of Ernestine.
Gertrude Chisnall (born Kingston district 1862) the eldest daughter married in St Giles in 1882.
Edith Ernestine Chisnall married Michael Hart in Marylebone in 1883 and although Michael is said to have died prior to 1893, I have yet to verify that. (Too Many Micheal Hart deaths on FreeBMD)
The point has already been made that it is highly unlikely that Gertrude senior should have two daughters both called Gertrude, one born in 1862, the other in 1892, but there is also uncertainty whether Gertrude 1892 was an illegitimate daughter of Ernestine, concieved after the death of her husband Michael. There was a birth recorded on the GRO index for a Gertrude Grace Hart (Lambeth Sept quarter 1892) that would certainly fit, but you say you have a copy of that and the details are such that you felt it not to be the Gertrude you seek.
(Verify whether you have Gertrude Grace Hart bn Lambeth district 1892 or Gertrude Beatrice Hart bn Islington District 1891)
The Gertrude born c 1844-1846 mother or grand mother of Gertrude Grace Smythe, declared on the censuses that her birthplace was Brighton and we know from her first marriage that her birth name was Gertrude Johnnes Morse. But there were no Morses born in Sussex 1840-1848, and neither the IGI nor the GRO has any Gertrude Morses registered as born anywhere in England in that period. So not only is the grand daughter Gertrude born c1892 a problem, the grand mother who said she was born Brighton 1844-6 is as well.
Perhaps finding Edith Morse born c 1827 with her daughter Gertrude? born c 1844-6 on the 1851 census would be a useful start point to begin to unravel the the twists and turns in your difficult problem.
Lastly, you have said the 1892 Gertrude "Smythe" was also known as Grace. There is another researcher who may interest you on Genes Reunited, for in her family tree she has a Grace Smythe born in an unknown location c 1892,
Looking back, a can of worms comes to mind!!!!
Roy G
-
Since writing the preceding chapter, a good colleague has sent me her findings on the 1851 census.
1851 Census living at Drayton Green Ealing Middlesex HO107 1699 f73 p11
Edward Wm Morse, Head, Mar, 70, No profession, George, Hanover Square .
Edith Joanna Morse Wife 28 Cornwall , Polperro
Gertrude Joanna Morse Dau 9 Sussex , Brighton
That confirms that Gertrude's middle name was Johanna rather than Johannes, and that she was indeed older than she admitted. Her birth year was closer to late 1841 to mid 1842 rather than 1846, making her over 50 when her daughter/grand daughter Gertrude Grace Smythe (or as I think Hart) was born in 1892. But I have yet to find any evidence that she was married to Edward, or that Gertrude born c1841 was officially registered under his surname. Perhaps she was registered under her mother's maiden name?
I was also shocked about the 42 year age difference between Gertrude's mother and father, so suggest that as the info came from a transcript, it should be verified from the original. I have no reason to doubt if though, for according to another document on the Internet (Slaughter Family History) Edward was born about 1777 in Drayton House, Ealing, Middlesex, and died in 1863 in the Brentford district of London. Edward & Edith (& perhaps Gertrude) should therefore appear on the 1861 census, and possibly without Gertrude on the 1841 census of the Brighton area.
Suggest you also have a look at Mary Anstance Morse who died in Brighton late 1840. The reasoning behind this suggestion is that the previously mentioned Slaughter family history shows that they consider there was a family connection.
Roy G
-
Hello Roy G
Thank you for all the information and work you have done on this. I too believe she is a hart (Edith Ernestine's daughter but cannot prove it. Michael Domville Hart was a medic and died abroad in Jamaica I think aged 27. I have seen the slaughter stuff but thank you for directing me to the Mary Anstance Morse I have a lot to digest and thank you again
Perri
-
I may be able to help with the above families also with Mary Anstance Morse
wife of a cousin
On Edward William Morse
1861 census-Friars Lane Richmond, Surrey- St Mary;'s District-Edward W Morse aged 60 Landed proprietor with wife Edith J years--Gertrude J 18 years and one servant--his age remains a mystery?
certainly the 1851 census has to be wrong I think--he left a very long will naming his children ffrrom 1st marriage along with his wife Edith and their daughter Gertrude Johanna
Marg
-
Hi
My great-grandmother was born 52 Redcliffe Road, Brompton, London on February 14, 1864. Edith Phillippa Chisnall married Michael Donville Hart in 1882 who was of Spanish, Jamaican, Jewish and English descent. He studied medicine at the University of Edinburgh.
Is this the person you were interest in?
Lehman
-
Edith Ernestine Hart used a "crest' It was in her family bible, and on an impression from a signet ring. It was a battle axe with a drop of blood. The axe was crossed with a flag or standard. Ut Pensor is written across the bottom. There is also a wreath and strands of grain tied in the middle and placed sideways below the axe and standard. It may belong to the Harts or one of her ancestors. I have never been able to trace this. Any ideas.
Lehman
-
Hi thank you for contacting me. I did research for a friend on this tree. I have information and photos you may like. Also I have scanned photos of a different family bible you maybe interested in. I will look into my records at the weekend and get back to you. I am happy to answer any questions and help if I can.
-
Hi I do not know where the ring came from but the meaning is to speak freely. The family bible I have photos of was Gertrude J Morse. I have a photo of Gertrude and also Edith Ernestine Hart nee Chisnall. Edith Ernestine was born in London 1864. I have the baptism record in Dorset. I also have photos of 2 daughters Phillippa and Ruby if you would like any of the photos I am happy to send them to you privately.
I hope you find this interesting and I look forward to hearing from you.