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Ireland (Historical Counties) => Ireland => Derry (Londonderry) => Topic started by: bnl on Wednesday 07 July 10 13:21 BST (UK)
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Hi,
I am trying to trace my great grandfather (Alexander Lawrence). I have been told he was born on 23 February 1840 in Coleraine, Londonderry but I have been unable to find any information on him. I would appreciate any assistance in breaking down my brick wall.
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Welcome to Rootschat. Do you have any more information about Alexander Lawrence? for example, did he marry? have you found him in any records?, etc.
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Hi bnl
According to the 1901 and 1911 census returns for the county, the following frequencies of name show up :
Laurence 1901 = 1 and obviously incorrect where forename and surname were mixed ie Hegarty Laurence
Laurence 1911 = 17, again two were mixed and the remaining 15 were in the Magherafelt / Castledawson / Cookstown area
Lawrence 1901 = 31 where all but three were in the Magherafelt / Castledawson / Moneymore / Cookstown area.
Lawrence 1911 = 21 and again all but 2 were in the Magherafelt / Castledawson / Moneymore / Cookstown area.
There would not appear to be any occurrence of either variant in the Coleraine region of the county in either census. I realize this is a few years after the birth of your ancestor but this is probably still a good guidance based on reasonably static population movements. If it was me I would be looking further south than Coleraine. (Standing to be corrected)
The 1901 Census has an Alexander Lawrence in the Brackagh Slieve Gallion are of south Derry age 37 and the 1911 Census has Alexander Laurence in the same area age 55. It does appear that the spelling changed from one census to the next for large numbers of this surname but it must be remembered that the levels of literacy were exceptionally low by modern standards, especially in the 19th century / turn of the 20th and enumerators would have put their own slant on what they heard from householders who were unable to fill out their own forms. In other words it pays to search around with as many variants of a surname as you can come up with.
Hope this helps
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And having said all that Griffiths Valuation has a Samuel Lawrence in Blindgate St. in Coleraine when the valuation was made in 1859. !
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And the 1852 Ulster Street Directory for Coleraine has Samuel Laurence, magistrate listed in Bannfield House and also a Mrs Laurence in Hanover Place listed under the heading of " Nobility and Gentry."
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There would not appear to be any occurrence of either variant in the Coleraine region of the county in either census. I realize this is a few years after the birth of your ancestor but this is probably still a good guidance based on reasonably static population movements. If it was me I would be looking further south than Coleraine. (Standing to be corrected)
Afraid the above information is incorrect. In 1911 census there were Lawrence families at Ballylagan and Curragh townlands (Somerset D.E.D.) which is just outside Coleraine. There are Lawrence in that area yet.
There were also Lawrences about Coleraine but hopefully bni will have more details.
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Hi,
Many thanks to aghadowey and Bannerman for your replies.
Other information I have on Alexander Lawrence is -
a. Our Lawrence "coat of arms" is almost identical to the St.Lawrence/Lord Howth "coat of arms" so perhaps
there is some connection with them. However, our "Coat of arms" appears to be English? See pictures
enclosed.
b. He emigrated to South Africa in 1862 and in the book "Aided Immigration from Britain to South Africa 1857- 1867" by Esmè Bull, he is recorded as -
Permit No: R1520/P1397 Name: LAWRENCE, Alexander Age: 22 Status: Single
Occupation: Labourer
Destination: 1 Chapel Street, Capetown. South Africa. (Residence of Brown LAWRENCE)
From: County Derry, Ireland
Ship: "John Vanner"
Arrival Date: March 1862
Travelling with Alexander was Mary LAWRENCE aged 20, also single. Occupation Housemaid
c. As far as I know, his father was resident in England when he went to South Africa.
d. Other Lawrence's that arrived in Cape Town between May 1860 and January 1865 from County Derry
were - Brown 19, Hugh Lawrence 29, Eliza 37, James R (Jonathon) 3, David 1 and Catherine Ann 22.
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I have numerous Lawrence deaths in Coleraine but nothing that ties into your family or with a South African connection. Unfortunately all the people you've listed were born well before the start of civil registration of births in Ireland (1864). To find church records you'd need to know what religion the family were in Ireland.
Seems strange that Alexander's father was in England in 1862 but think it's very unlikely that the family had a coat of arms.
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Thanks for your comments.
I am interested in your comment "but I think it's very unlikely that the family had a coat of arms". The coat of arms was researched by an heraldic researcher, based on information from Alexander Lawrence's grandson, who was the family historian at the time, and part of the coat of arms was then incorporated into the coat of arms of the town that Alexander founded in South Africa.
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If this particular Lawrence family had a coat of arms, then I believe details should be included in the Register of Arms, in either
the Dublin - Office of the Chief Herald FAQs (http://www.nli.ie/en/faq/heraldry-faq.aspx) (National Library) or College of Arms, London (http://www.college-of-arms.gov.uk/Faq.htm)
Shane
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T1190/2 in PRONI is a detailed pedigree of the Lawrence Family of Coleraine which was compiled by Major H Lawrence in 1908.
ARMS
Coat; Argent, a cross ragully gules, on a chief azure a lion passant of the first.
Crest: The tail and lower part of a fish erect and couped ppr.
Motto: Qui Pense
I can see on the pedigree a Captain Samuel Lawrence of Scottish Rifles b 9 July 1868 d 18th April 1900, in South Africa m 23 Nov 1897, Dorothy, dau of John Snelgrove, of London, who re-m 1st Nov 1906, Hervey Major Lawrence
I have an interest in the Lawrence family but will have to hunt out the relevant information. If you wish you can contact me through the PM system.
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hello - my dad's name is William Lawrence - he was born on XXXX and was originally from Ballylagan. I never met any of his relatives until yesterday when his cousin XXXX visited him in hospital. My dad has dementia and has recently had two strokes. He has never spoken about his family and I do not even know where his parents are buried but I think their (unmarked) grave is at Ballylagan. I have no idea why he keep his family history a secret from me and my brother but I would like to find the grave and to put up a headstone before my father himself passes away.
I would be grateful if anyone has any information regarding the Lawrence family
Moderator's Comment: Names of living people aren't allowed to be posted on Rootschat so some details have been removed from this post. If anyone can fill in more recent family details it would be best done by PM (personal message) rather than online.
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Welcome to Rootschat. I've removed some details of living people as it's against the rules to post such information. I know your father's cousin and since I have a funeral in Ballylaggan tomorrow might get speaking to him there. After you've made 3 posts you can send me a PM (personal message) and I might be able to fill in some family details for you.
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how do I send you a personal message - do you have an email I can use?
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After you've made 1 more post you'll see little green scrolls under the usernames- click on it, type message and press send- only you and that person will see the message.
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thank you so much
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The Lawrence coat of arms I have is mentioned in both "The General Armory of England, Scotland, Ireland and Wales by Bernard Burke - 1884" and in "The British Herald, or Cabinet of armorial bearings of nobility by Thomas Robson - 1830" (as an English coat of arms).
It was researched by a registered heraldic researcher in South Africa and is almost identical to the St.Lawrence/Lord Howth coat of arms.
I do not have access the Office of the Chief Herald in Dublin or the College of Arms in London to check whether the coat of arms is included in their Register of Arms.
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The reason I mentioned the Office of Herald it that for them to grant use of the coat of arms, they would have required a detailed genealogy connecting the the male-line of the applicant back to the original grantee of the arms. These details should have been made available to the family at the time by the researcher working for your family. It might be worth checking if someone in your family has these detail to save you carrying out the same Lawrence research again.
Shane
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The detailed genealogy of the male-line would have been supplied by the researcher to Alexander Lawrence's grandson, who was the unofficial family historian at the time, and he would have stored it away safely. It is a long story but, unfortunately, when that grandson died, the person who inherited his property did not know (or care) what all the documents were and so destroyed them!!!! I am therefore at square one.
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Is the professional researcher (or his descendants) still in business ?
Maybe they still have some records..
Shane
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No, he died about 8 years ago. I have been in contact with his son and also the person who took over a lot of his documentation but neither have been unable to find anything on it.
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The 1831 Census shows these Lawrences living in Coleraine
Hanover Place
John Lawrence Number of house 60 1 family
1 male 1 female servant
Total in house 2
1 R.C. 1 Pres
Samuel Lawrence Number of house 76 1 family
2 male 2 female 2 female servants
Total in house 6
6 Pres
Bridge Street
Lawrence Number of house 25 1 family
4 male 3 female
Total in house 7
7 R.C.
Meeting House Lane
Wm W Lawrence Number of house 101 1 family
3 male 4 female 1 male servant 1 female servant
Total in house 9
9 Pres
New Row
Ann Lawrence Number of house 325 1 family
1 male 5 female 2 female servants
Total in house 8
8 Pres
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I have just come across this posting and have some information that might be useful.
William Gregory Lawrence was secretary of Vernon Nasonic Lodge No. 127 in Coleraine in 1866.
Alexander Major Lawrence was WM in 1869 and secretary from 1871-1874.
I will see if we still have their addresses at that time as some of the early books are missing.
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There is a short article on the Lawrence family in the Northern Constitution 5 Jan 1918.
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Hello,
Think I may have a lead for you. I've been looking at Hugh and Brown Lawrence. Have found Baptismal Records for them on RootsIreland.ie. Unfortunately, nothing for Alexander, but am sure this is the same family - the names match up with those for emigration to the Cape.
Parent for Hugh and Brown(e) are James Lawrence and Elizabeth Browne. They were Presbytarians from Killyfaddy County Derry, parish name: FIRST MAGHERAFELT. Hugh was born/baptised 22 May 1835, Browne 11 November 1839.
Brown Lawrence was a successful businessman and benefactor at the Cape. See: http://sites.google.com/site/sheldonza/south-african-sheldons/annie-lawrence-nee-sheldon . My great grandmother said he was known to the family as "Lal". My relative, Eleanor Frances Cornwell married Hugh.
Hope this helps.
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Thanks for the information on Brown Lawrence and Annie Lawrence. Some information I have been given on Brown Lawrence is -
Brown LAWRENCE, from County Derry, Occupation ...Farm Labourer, age 19 (arrived in Cape Town in May 1860) which was date of his arrival aboard the ship "Wellington". His destination on arrival was a Mr McGibbon, Cape Town.
Brown LAWRENCE married Margaret McCALLUM age 19, occupation...Hat trimmer and cap maker...daughter of Samuel McCallum age 51 (arrived in Cape Town in July 1861). The McCallum family arrived on the "Sedgemoor 11". Their destination was to an Alexander McCallum in Capetown who had arrived in September 1858 aboard the "Edward Oliver".
Margaret LAWRENCE (nee McCALLUM), wife of Brown LAWRENCE died in 1867 in Cape Town. So Annie was his second wife.
A number of LAWRENCE's gave Brown LAWRENCE as their destination address and this seems to indicate a "mass migration" of the LAWRENCE clan. Perhaps this was a delayed reaction to the Potato Famine in Ireland.
Other LAWRENCE"s with arrival dates between May 1860 and January 1865 are -
Hugh 29
Eliza 37
James R (Jonathon) 3
David 1
Catherine Ann 22
Let me know if you come across a connection to Alexander.
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Do you think Brown Lawrence married twice? I feel pretty certain about the Annie Sheldon connection. The Lawrences were philanthropists - there is an aged care home in Cape Town that it is still called the Brown and Annie Lawrence home. Unfortunately, they don't appear to have had any children. My great grandmother told my father about them. Apparently, they also supported work relating to the support of unmarried coloured women.
I think I've found a connection between Brown Lawrence and a Richardson Cathcart. I have records for an Elizabeth Brown marrying Lawrence, then an Elizabeth Lawrence/Brown marrying Cathcart. It's all in the same area of Derry. I believe Brown and Richardson to be half brothers. Can't provide further details at the moment - am caught up in Christchurch NZ with earthquake woes and am staying with friends. Will need to wait a week or so to look at my paperwork should you want to know more.
Have a subscription to Ancestry24, which is a site for SA genealogy. No luck with Alexander there. Also looked on NAAIRS database. :P
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Sorry - re-read your message (I must have "quake" brain). See you do think Annie was a second marriage. Other alternative is that we're looking at two people called Brown Lawrence.
My feeling is that the Lawrences were Scots/Irish rather than English, but no actual proof as such.
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There are three listings for an Alexander Lawrence on the Ancestry24 website:
1861 and 1863 Cape Almanacs have an Alexander Lawrence, Photographer at Ashley Street, Cape Town
Cape Estates Death Notice Index - Alexander Lawrence 1871.
Do you think any of these are your man?
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As I see it, Brown's first wife, Margaret, died in 1867 in Cape Town. Annie moved to South Africa in c.1880 and married Brown some time after that.
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Thanks for the information on Alexander Lawrence from the Ancestry24 website.
Unfortunately, none of the three listings refers to my Alexander Lawrence as he was a) never a photographer and b) died in 1903 in Natal.
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I would appreciate it is someone could help me trace Alexander LAWRENCE from his permit number (R1520/P1397). He emigrated to South Africa in 1862 under "Aided Immigration". He left Southampton on 4/1/1862 on the ship "John Vanner" and arrived in Cape Town on 10/3/1862.
Many thanks
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It may be that any surviving records are in South Africa- have you tried searching there yet?
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I have not tried any South African records yet.
Would his permit number be a British/ Southampton emigration number or a South African entry/arrival number?
What South African records should I look for and would they be held in Cape Town?
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Where did you get the details in the first place?
South Africa Archives can be searched here- see Search National Automated Archival Information Retrieval System on left side of page: www.national.archives.gov.za/naairs.htm
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I was given the details by a Rootschat person from the book "Aided Immigration from Britain to South Africa 1857- 1867" by Esmè Bull. This is the earliest information that I have on him and there starts my brick wall.
I have searched the NAAIRS system quite thoroughly and have found information on him but nothing about his arrival in South Africa. I have searched most of the free genealogy sites and again nothing.
I actually want to find information on him and his family in England and Ireland. I am hoping that his permit number might provide me with information that will lead to discovering this.
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If the information isn't in South African archives then try National Archives, Kew-
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/
Might also be worth contacting person who found the reference to see if they can clarify it.
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I will try National Archives, Kew- http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/
The person who gave me the information only has it from the book I mentioned.
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The person who gave me the information only has it from the book I mentioned.
Would think there should be some sort of explanation in the book as to the listings (probably at the before the information is listed).
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Hello I feel that the family you are looking for are the Lawrences of Bannfield. Bannfield was a large house which was where Tescos is today in Coleraine. It fronted both the Fairhill and Blindgate Street. The Lawrences was merchants. They were emigration merchants and had several ships which went to the US and they had flourmills (Bann Steam Mills) across the road from their home These were destroyed by fire in 1876. . Members of this family went all over the world. They were related to Lawrence of Arabia and he visited Bannfield on at least one occasion. Other members were involved in Education, etc in Northern India. Information about this family appears in Mullin, T.H. "Coleraine in Georgian Times" and also in "Coleraine in Modern Times" There is also a chapter in "The History of St,Patricks" by Henry. Birth notices etc appear in the DVD "The Londonderry Sentinel 1829-1869" published by the Coleraine Family History Society. I think members of this family were educated at Foyle College in Londonderry. I hope this helps.
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I looked up "Dictionary of Ulster Biography" by Kate Newman There on page 134 is the following. "Lawrence , Alexander 1764-1835vAlexander \lawrence was born in Coleraine County Londonderry. He served in the 19th and 77th regiments. He returned after 15 years service in India having risen to the rank of Colonel. He had 4 sons three of whom served with distinction in India. ir George Alexander Lawrence 1804-1884. Sir Henry Lawrence 1806-1857 Lord John Lawrence 1811-1879
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I realise that this Alexander is too early but I still think he is the same family
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Hi Historylass,
Thanks very much for your information. I will follow up on the Lawrence's of Bannfield and see if I can find anything that fits. In regard to Alexander Lawrence who served in India, do you know the name of his fourth son? Also, anything on the children of George Alexander, Henry and John?
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I'll look them up and get back to you.
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Sir Henry Lawrence:
http://www.ulsterhistory.co.uk/lawrence.html
also
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_Montgomery_Lawrence
Regards
Joe
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New to this but may be of interest? I am Hervey Lawrence's grandson John. I have Dr Samuel Lawrence's silver chest (here in Queensland) that accompanied him up the Nile with Gen. Kitchener. Please let me know if you would like any more information about our line of the family.
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I think you may be looking for Alexander Lawrence in the wrong county, as he named one of his farms Sleive Gallion, which also lists a family of Lawrences see below.
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Hello everyone,
I am new to RootsChat and researching my Irish ancestors. I realize the last post was from 3+ years ago now, but the information in this thread is of interest to me, as I am trying to find details of my second great grandfather’s family. I am looking for any information and would love to chat with any family members of David Lawrence, b. about 1865, location unknown but likely around Coleraine.
I know nothing about David’s origins, apart from his father’s name – which was also David Lawrence. David married Susanna Gray in Feb 1887 in Ballylagan/Coleraine. Susanna Gray was the daughter of James Gray (about 1832-1912) and Rachel Mitchell (about 1832-1919). I have no further information on her parents.
David and Susanna’s children were:
- James Gray (b. 5 Mar 1889 in Ballylagan, d. 13 Mar 1976 in Eriksdale, Manitoba Canada) James was my great grandfather and as far as I know, the only Lawrence from this family to immigrate to Canada, which he did between 1911-1913.
- David (b. 25 Mar 1893 in Ballylagan)
- William (b. 29 Apr 1895 in Ballylagan)
- Thomas (b. 15 Apr 1900 in Ballylagan)
- Samuel (b. 24 Aug 1902 in Ballylagan)
- Rachel (b. 8 Apr 1905 in Ballylagan)
- George (b. 23 May 1907 in Ballylagan)
- John Mitchell (b. 23 Dec 1910 in Ballylagan)
The 1911 Census also indicates there was another unknown child born, but died prior to 1911. I have no other information on these children – where they lived, who they married, when they died, etc. All of this information was gathered from James and Susanna’s marriage record, the children’s birth records, the 1901 and 1911 Ireland Census forms.
I was wondering if there is any connection to the previously mentioned Alexander Lawrence (b. 23 Feb 1840) from Coleraine (mentioned by bnl), the William Lawrence from Ballylagan (mentioned by biffdog) or the multiple Lawrence families in the 1832 Census (mentioned by cyclamen). Any clues, connections or other possible sources would be greatly helpful.
Thanks,
Holly Lawrence
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Welcome to RootsChat.
There are some details on the marriage cert which may be useful to anyone who can help you
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1887/10790/5935033.pdf
David and both fathers are Labourers
They married by license
If I'm reading correctly the marriage was Presbyterian
Townland names as well, I need to check them out to be able to read them.
One of the witnesses is William Lawrence.
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Hi Sinann,
Looks like the marriage date is 24 Feb 1887? and the family was most likely Reformed Presbyterian. I cant quite read David's residence... Looks as if it says (?) Parish of Macosquin? Susanna's residence looks like it says Ballylagan, Parish of Macosquin? As for the witnesses, I believe that Eliza Jane Gray is Susanna's older sister. I'm wondering if William Lawrence is a brother to David? Looks like I have a lot of info to confirm...
Thanks for your help ;D
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Ballintaggart for Susanna
Yes Macosquin for the parish, this is the Civil Parish
This is a handy site
http://www.thecore.com/seanruad/
As is this one
https://www.swilson.info/regdistmap.php?gregdistid=50
Think David's is Carndougan
Macosquin is the last Civil Parish on the list, click on it and all the townlands will show.
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Welcome to Rootschat :) I think I can fill in some details for you and clarify some things from this thread.
The Lawrence family of Coleraine are not at all likely to be connected- if they are it would be far earlier than available records. Biffdog (who posted earlier in the thread- see page 2) is related.
The family belonged to Ballylaggan Reformed Presbyterian Church. A few years ago when I transcribed the graveyard there were only 2 (fairly recent) Lawrence headstones.
Starting with the 1887 marriage- David Lawrence was living in Carndugan and the witness William Lorence may have been his brother. The other witness was Susanna's sister Eliza Janie Gray (born 1856). Susanna's parents were James Gray (born c1832) and Rachel Mitchell. There was also a brother James Gray (born c1871).
Susanna (Gray) Lawrence born 25 Aug.1865 & died 20 Oct.1927. David's parents were David Lawrence (son of Samuel) & Mary McMillan (daughter of William).
Children of David Lawrence & Susanna Gray-
1. James Gray Lawrence (1889)
2. Mary McMillan Lawrence (5 Mar.1891)- she died 18 July 1894 Ballylaggan LINK (https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1894/05960/4694154.pdf)
3. David Lawrence (1893), fought WWI, m.1916 Esther Crawford- 3 sons
4. William "Willie" Lawrence (1895), fought WWI m.1920 Mary Connolly- daughter
5. Thomas Martin Lawrence (1900-1975) m.1923 Sarah Margaret McMaster- 3 sons, 3 daughters
6. Samuel Lawrence (1902-21 Aug.1923)
7. Rachel Mitchell Lawrence (1905) m.1930 John Doey- 1 son
8. George Lawrence (1907) m.1930 Margaret Orr- 2 sons
9. John Mitchell Lawrence (1910)
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James Gray Lawrence married (19 Dec.1907) Lizzie Allen
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1907/10105/5676463.pdf
www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Londonderry/Somerset/Curragh/587864
They had at least 4 children before leaving Ireland-
1. David Lawrence (26 Jan.1908 Ballylaggan) LINK (https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1908/01670/1664927.pdf)
2. Esther Lawrence (14 Apr.1911 Curragh) LINK (https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1911/01533/1621267.pdf)
Children of David Lawrence & Esther Crawford-
William Lawrence (1917-8 Feb.1917 Camus, age 10 days) LINK (https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1917/05226/4446506.pdf)
Samuel James Lawrence (1918-26 May 1919 Gills, age 7 months) LINK (https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1919/05153/4421060.pdf)
Note: corrections made later
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Wonder is there a connection i see his eldest daughter is Mary McMillan
A David Lawrence married Mary McMillan 1862 in Coleraine
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:FGXN-QQ3
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Wonder is there a connection i see his eldest daughter is Mary McMillan
A David Lawrence married Mary McMillan 1862 in Coleraine
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:FGXN-QQ3
Yes, David's parents were David Lawrence (son of Samuel) & Mary McMillan (daughter of William). see reply #51
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Macosquin Presbyterian Church baptisms-
Children of David Lawrence & Esther Crawford-
28 Nov.1916 David (born 22 July 1915)
24 Oct.1918 Samuel James (born 7 Oct.1918)
There are also baptisms for a daughter of William Lawrence & Mary Connelly (1921), children of Thomas Martin Lawrence & Sarah Margaret McMaster (1924, 1927, 1932, 1935, 1939, 1939), another son of David Lawrence & Esther Crawford (1924), sons of George Lawrence & Margaret Orr (1932, 1935) as well as an illegitimate child (1928).
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Hi Aghadowey,
Wow. You have just added to and taken my tree back so much further! Unbelievable! Why didn’t I find this website earlier?? You have been so amazingly helpful… I can’t wait to start working on these new names and information!
I always thought my Lawrence family was from Coleraine, but it looks as though I should be looking for Ballylaggan instead! Ignorantly, I believed these places were basically one in the same, as by Canadian distance standards, Coleraine and Ballylagan are fairly close. So just to be clear, Ballylagan is a small area that lies to the east of Curragh Road to the west bank of the Lower River Bann, and west of the city Ballymoney? I just want to make sure I’m looking at the right place on a map. The townlands.ie site is very helpful, thanks for that link. Do you know of any way to tell which properties the Lawrence families may have occupied in that area?
Do you think that the graveyard at the Ballylagan Reformed Presbyterian Church is likely where most of them would have been buried, even though there may be a lack of headstones present today? I wonder if transcription/burial records are out there somewhere...
In regard to Susanna Lawrence (Gray)’s death date of 20 Oct 1927, do you know where I could find a source reference/death record for this?
In regard to James Gray Lawrence and Elizabeth Allen’s children, I was surprised to learn of two children I never knew existed, so I did a little more homework. I knew of David (b. 1908) and Esther (b. 1911) both born in Ireland and they also had two more children later born in Canada – Susanna Mae (b. 1922) and William James Allen (b. 1924). William or “Al” as we called him, was my grandfather. All of these children are gone now, all buried in Canada. With such a big gap between Esther’s 1911 birth and Susanna Mae’s in 1922, I would not be shocked if there were other children. However, Canadian Passenger Records lists James Gray Lawrence, with wife Elizabeth, son David and daughter Essie arriving in Canada on 28 May 1913. The family is also found in Canadian Census records in 1916.
So in regard to William (b. 1917) and Samuel James (b. 1918), I notice on William and Samuel James’ death records, the informant is listed as “Esther Lawrence, mother” – do you think that this could be the wife of one of James’ brothers rather than Elizabeth/Lizzie Lawrence? I was thinking maybe the wife of David Lawrence (b. 1893), Esther Crawford?
Anyways, sorry for all that blabber, I’m just really excited with all of this information. Thanks again for your help! :)
Holly
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Not sure what happened when I cut and pasted earlier but William and Samuel James are the children of David Lawrence and his wife Esther Crawford and not James Gray Lawrence and Lizzie Allen.
So just to be clear, Ballylagan is a small area that lies to the east of Curragh Road to the west bank of the Lower River Bann, and west of the city Ballymoney? I just want to make sure I’m looking at the right place on a map. The townlands.ie site is very helpful, thanks for that link. Do you know of any way to tell which properties the Lawrence families may have occupied in that area?
Ballylaggan is the name of a townland and also the name of the Reformed Presbyterian Church in that area. Ballymoney is a market town across the River Bann to the east. Previously Ballymoney would have been the postal address so letters would have been address “Lawrence family, Ballylaggan, Ballymoney.”
This map will show you the location of Ballylaggan (note the site uses 1 ‘g' but we always use ‘gg’). There is also a Ballylagan (North & South) nearer Coleraine.
https://www.townlands.ie/londonderry/coleraine/macosquin/ballylagan/
The church is in the bottom left corner of the townland near where the Managher Rd. forks into the Curragh Road.
https://ballylaggan-rpc.org/
You can see the list of tenants in Ballylaggan (and other townlands) in the Valuation Revision Books.
https://www.nidirect.gov.uk/information-and-services/search-archives-online/valuation-revision-books
These follow from the printed version of Griffith’s Valuation (mid 1800s) which have maps-
http://www.askaboutireland.ie/griffith-valuation/index.xml?action=placeSearch
In regard to Susanna Lawrence (Gray)’s death date of 20 Oct 1927, do you know where I could find a source reference/death record for this?
Some of the death dates came from a large collection of death letters that once belonged to the Lawrence family covering many families in the Ballylaggan area. I’ve had them packed away for the last few years over several house moves but will see if I can find them soon.
By the end of this year Irish Genealogy site should include scans of the earlier records which should help piece together more on the Lawrence family. Meanwhile you can get mre recent scans on GRONI's site (births 100 years old, marriages 75 years old & deaths 50 years old).
Do you think that the graveyard at the Ballylagan Reformed Presbyterian Church is likely where most of them would have been buried, even though there may be a lack of headstones present today? I wonder if transcription/burial records are out there somewhere...
The Lawrences were buried at Ballylaggan (at least for a long time) but the only transcription of gravestones that I know of is the one I did a few years ago. Presbyterians, and Reformed Presbyterians, don’t usually keep burial records and I know that Ballylaggan doesn’t have any such records although the baptisms do go back quite far. I’ve not extracted any Lawrences from them so not sure what might be in them. The records are not online.
From memories the Allens might be buried in Camus (further north along the Curragh Road towards Coleraine) but would have to check my notes to be sure.
We aren’t allowed to post details of living people but if you send me your email address by PM (Personal Message) I can forward more notes, links to recent family events, etc.
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Sorry it's taken me so long to send you details of Lawrence and Allen families but I keep finding more details to add.
Was ready to send you the Lawrence file last week but luckily decided to check the Cullyvenny School register... which lead to a large branch of your family in America (mostly Philadelphia). Can send that to you know as well as 11 pages of Allen notes (complicated by the habit of Allens married Allens). Enjoy :)
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Biffdog and Hollaw,
Just a little more detail:- Private William Lawrence from Ballylaggan, Coleraine was in the 10th Battalion of the Royal Inniskilling Fusiliers during the 1914 - 1918 War.
Brown1777
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aghadowey,
Thanks so much for all of the information. I have spent the afternoon going through it and this helps a a great deal. I still have a lot more work to do. Things get confusing when all the children have the same names through the generations!
Thanks again for your help, it is greatly appreciated :)
Holly
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Brown1777,
Thanks for the info on pvt. William Lawrence - do you know if WWI Irish Military Records are available online? I have been searching, but no luck so far.
Thanks,
Holly
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Hollaw,
The Royal Inniskilling Fusiliers has a lovely museum in Enniskillen, County Fermanagh. They also have a website that allows tracing of relatives. Getting ready to attend a funeral at the minute, but not so long ago the website was "down" as it was being reviewed not sure how it is at present but if you google it, it is easily found. Brown1777
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Holly,
On the Armed Forces World War One part of Rootschat there are people there with a lot more knowledge than me about these matters and you might want to record your enquiry there.
The Royal Inniskilling Fusiliers Museum does offer a "trace a relative" option online. You will note though that if you input the surname Lawrence that it brings up several William Lawrences. It may be a touch expensive at £65 per individual to make enquiries and have them send you the details about all the Private William Lawrences? The experts in the Armed Forces section may offer a less expensive alternative. Brown1777