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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Nottinghamshire => Topic started by: malc2202 on Saturday 17 July 10 14:16 BST (UK)
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I need a little advice here please,
I have just recieved my grandads death certificate dated 1931,it says he died at the Mental Hosital in Radcliffe on Trent.
What i would hope someone could answer is why would he have been there, was it because he had become a lunatic?
It says on the death cert that he had died from (a) Pulmonary Congestion (b) Chronic Bronchitus.
it puzzles me because his occupation states he was from Sutton in Ashfield.
Would he have just gone there for health care or was he classed has a lunatic.
Many thanks for any answers /Suggestions.
Malc
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This link has a bit of info in it. It is more than likely he was a mental patient.
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/hospitalrecords/details.asp?id=2517&page=78
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Thanks CaroleW
i had a feeling it was because of that and not because he was poor and it was somewhere to spend his last days.
Malc
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Hi
I have a relative who spent a while at Saxondale in the 1960s following a complete nervous breakdown. In it's time it was quite a good place and helped my relative a great deal. I am sure that your grandfather would have received caring attention but died because of other causes. I hope that helps.
NC.
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Saxondale was an Hospital where one went to be cured and helped , as Nottschick put about her relative ,.
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Thanks Nottschick and LH35 for your replys.
Maybe due to his condition he was having a breakdown.All his life he was a hardworking man being a contractors Haulier up until 1915 when he served in the Great War till 1919 and from his service records i know he served in France and Belgium and he got a gunshot wound to his face and leg.
After the war he became a miner until he died of Brochitus.
I would like to know where he was buried and maybe if possible view his records at the Nottingham Archives but i know sometimes records like these,certain things may be prohibited.
Once again thanks for taking your time to answer.
Malc
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Hello Malc, my great uncle died in Radcliffe hospital in 1925. He suffered from "shell shock" after being wounded and gassed in France. In 1919 he was declaired as having 100% disability with manic depressive psychosis, he was sent home from France and put into the old Newark Workhouse, I have letters from his mother begging for him to be sent to Radcliffe so he could get the help he needed, as he was in the wrong place in her view.
His death certificate says he died of "general paralysis of the insane" He was 29 years old. The place of death was Notts County Mental Hospital Radcliffe on Trent.
Maybe your grandfather was having flash backs or some other problems from his time in the war. Then, sadly we did not have the means to help people with post traumatic shock and they ended up where they did. Iam sure he was not a "lunatic" just a very troubled man. My gt gt aunt was classed as a lunatic on one census- she was an epileptic.....
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Thanks Larkspur for your time and reply,
Now i do have the feeling that he was there mainly on health grounds and yes maybe he was having a breakdown of some kind,
As you say post traumatic stress was not really understood at the time and as i said in my 1st post, he had suffered gun shot wounds, so this could have been part and parcel of why he ended up here.
Malc.
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Hi
I have lived in Nottingham most of my life. Mapperley Hospital was the City asylum and Saxondale the County Asylum. I am a bit surprised that he was from Sutton which I would class as North Notts and I thought they would have had an asylum up there.
Anyway I worked at Mapperley and was there when they had the centenery and therefore got quite interested in the old ways. For Saxondale see
http://www.countyasylums.com/mentalasylums/saxondale01.htm
I had a relative there in the 1970s.
To get back to your relative. There are some easy reasons and some harder reasons to get your head round so don't get too upset if I say things that you do not want to know. This is the problem with family history.
Saxondale was an asylum, ie a mental hospital. He would not have been there for bronchitis, lung disease or any other physical illness although that may have been what finally killed him. If he was from Sutton was he a miner? This could account for the lung disease.
He may have been epileptic, depressed, schizophrenic or bipolar disorder (both probably not recognised then) or he may have had a sexually transmitted disease such as syphilis (I knew you would not like this). I became quite attached to the story of my great grandad who looked great in his photos but died in Saxondale at the age of 40 in 1915. I was told he died because he needed some medicine and the war broke out and could not get it any more. It turned out it was syphilis which without antibiotics caused fits and psychiatric symptoms. Penicillin was not available to the masses until after the 2nd world war in the late 40s and 50s and several of the older patients in the hospital when I started in the mid 1970s were there because if they were male they had syphylis or if they were female they had an illegitimate child. Unbelievable these days.
As far as the epilepsy and other mental illnesses don't forget that the modern drugs for epilepsy, mental illnesses and depression also did not exist. There was virtually nothing before the late 1950s and 1960s with great advances in each decade of the 70s, 80s, 90s and 2000s. The drugs before the 1950s were barbiturates which just sedated the patients. When they became agitated it would have been more barbiturates or paradehyde to sedate them even more. There was also Electro Convulsive Therapy for depression.
There are of course many other reasons but unfortunately the records are closed I think for 100years. Notts Archives have the records so if you really want to know contact them and if you are the nearest relative you may be able to access them if you fill in enough forms.
http://www.nottinghamshire.gov.uk/home/leisure/archives.htm
The staff there are very helpful but are bound by the rules and quite rightly so.
I hope this helps and is not too depressing.
Kind regards
Jane
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Thanks Jane for your reply.
As always this site is perfect for getting different opnions on a subject and this has given me a little more to go on.
My Grandad was living at 2 Clubb street Sutton in Ashfield,which would have run from the Bottom of the Idlewells shopping centre up to the top which leads to the bus station .
This was stated from his Death cert issued after his death at the Mental hospital and the person who was present at death was, H.C.Walds? who was the Medical Superintendant at the time.
His widow, my Grandma went onto remarry 2 years later and she lived until 1950.
Once more thankyou all for the replys.
Malc
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Hi
These are the records for Saxondale Hospital held at Nottinghamshire Archives.
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/hospitalrecords/details.asp?id=2517&hospital=nottingham&town=&searchdatabase.x=90&searchdatabase.y=10
His clinical records would be classed as sensitive so you would need to prove you are a close descendant to have some or all of them opened (this is likely to involve documentary proof). It would be worth enquiring with Nottinghamshire Archives under the Freedom of Information Act.
If his body was claimed by his relatives when he died then you should search in cemeteries where they lived for where he might be buried. Otherwise the asylum would have him buried either in the nearest local civic cemetery to the asylum, or if the asylum had its own burial ground then there.
A major cause of 'general paralysis of the insane' was syphilis.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_paresis_of_the_insane
Regards
Valda
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Hi Valda,
It looks more and more like i shall have to contact the Nottingham archives and try and get his details if it is possible as to why/reason he was at the Hospital.
I would assume i am the closest of kin now as my dad was the only child, in regards of proof i have my birth cert with the details of my father and my fathers birth cert from 1926 which has his fathers and mothers details on it.I also have the marriage cert from 1919 of my grandad who was in the mental hospital.I would hope these would suffice to prove my relationship with my granddad,hopefully it would have been my grandma, his wife who would have been the next of kin on his details when he entered the hospital.
I have tried the Sutton in Ashfield cemetery site and upto a year after the date he died and there is no sign of his burial ,so it would appear he was buried locally to the mental hospital.
Once again thanks for your time and reply.
Malc.
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Hi Malc
You may have to prove your father's death as well and possibly your grandmother's even though the latter is more obviously likely to be deceased. Both would be nearer in relationship than yourself and the record office may wish to be assured that neither are still alive. Individual record offices all have slightly different policies and interpretations when it comes to sensitive records well under the 100 year ruling but which can be applied for under the Freedon of Information Act.
Judging by some of the records Nottinghamshire Archives holds, Saxondale Hospital may have had a burial ground.
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/a2a/records.aspx?cat=157-soho1&cid=32-7&kw=Nottinghamshire%20Archives#32-7
This record in the list which is probably now extremely hard to find a copy of may also be of interest
"Saxondale Memories: personal history of a Nottinghamshire Hospital, 1902-1988", compiled by David Lowe, published by Nottingham Health Authority SO/HO/1/50/2/4 Apr 1988
Regards
Valda
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Hi
As Saxondale was in the County I would try Wilford Hill for burials/cremations first. You could try the Cemetery Officer at Notts County Council,
http://www.nottinghamshire.gov.uk/atoz-cemeteries?LGSL=335&LGIL=8
The local council is
http://www.rushcliffe.gov.uk
I hope this helps
Kind regards
Jane
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Thanks Jane
I will try Willford Cemetery but i have a sneaking feeling he may have been buried on site at the Mental hospital.
Malc.
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Hi there
It could be that he suffered from dementia or another kind of degenerative illness. At that time many older people were admitted to Mental Hospitals with these conditions and often they died of something totally unrelated, although bronchial pneumonia/ congestion/ heart failure was often put on the death certificate.
Saxondale ( Radcliffe on Trent ) would have been the County Asylum for Nottinghamshire of which Sutton in Ashfield is a part.
Hope this helps.
Annette
I need a little advice here please,
I have just recieved my grandads death certificate dated 1931,it says he died at the Mental Hosital in Radcliffe on Trent.
What i would hope someone could answer is why would he have been there, was it because he had become a lunatic?
It says on the death cert that he had died from (a) Pulmonary Congestion (b) Chronic Bronchitus.
it puzzles me because his occupation states he was from Sutton in Ashfield.
Would he have just gone there for health care or was he classed has a lunatic.
Many thanks for any answers /Suggestions.
Malc
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It's now been converted into flats and houses, not far from me if you would like some photo's modern day
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Hi Willsy
That would be brilliant if you could get me some modern photos of what the hospital has turned into, you say into housing.....
I am still struggling to find the time to pop to the Nottingham archives to do some more research into my grandad and the reasons behind him being there, what with work and other commitments...
Cheers Malc.
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Put Saxondale hospital into our old friend Google and its all up there....Jane Swann also posted up a link under "nottingham lunatic asylum"a big discusion there, thread started 6 march 07 on the Nottinghamshire page.
http://www.countyasylums.com/mentalasylums/saxondale01.htmhttp://
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Hi Larkspur,
thanks again for the reply and the details you listed, i have decided to email the Nottingham Archives with all the details of my Grandad to see if initially there are any records that will be open to me so all i can do is await a reply.
I shall keep all informed in due course and let you know how i get on,its just sad sometimes to find a close relative ending there days like this.
Malc
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If the weather is good I will pop across Sunday and take some photo's
Elaine
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Hi Elaine,
Thanks for taking the time to do this for me, its really appreciated.
Malc
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Have taken these views to go alongside the web link to show how the building has been used for housing. The admin block is now a restaurant and the chapel a nutition centre
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(http://i90.photobucket.com/albums/k268/willsy43/Harry/SAM_2042.jpg)
(http://i90.photobucket.com/albums/k268/willsy43/Harry/SAM_2043.jpg)
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(http://i90.photobucket.com/albums/k268/willsy43/Harry/SAM_2044.jpg)
(http://i90.photobucket.com/albums/k268/willsy43/Harry/SAM_2045.jpg)
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(http://i90.photobucket.com/albums/k268/willsy43/Harry/SAM_2047.jpg)
(http://i90.photobucket.com/albums/k268/willsy43/Harry/SAM_2048.jpg)
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Hi Elaine,
The photos are absolutely stunning....i wonder what the people think sometimes when they realise they are living in an old Mental asylum....
I have sent a application off to the Nottingham archives, now just waiting to see what comes back...All i know from a reply to my email i sent..They do not hold any death records for the year i am looking at..
Once again...a million thankyous for your time.
Malc
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Keep us all posted
Elaine
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The hospital you are asking about was Notts County Mental Hosptial. After the NHS took over its name was changed to Saxondale Hospital. The address is Radcliffe-on-Trent, not Ratcliffe. I worked there as a nurse for 31 years - from 1957 until it closed. I can't speak for 1931 though I expect it was no different but some senile people were admitted in my time because they were difficult to manage or had no one to care for them and there was no other facility. There were also physically ill patients whose illness had made them disoriented and caused behaviour problems which were difficlut to deal with.
Your grandfather would have been on a sick ward where he wouldhave received excellent care. We used to get patients come to us from the Nottingham General Hospital with bedsores. This never happened with our patients. We did frequent 'back' rounds.
The older your grandfather was when he was first admitted the less likely it is that he woul have what is normally thoughtof as a mental illness, i.e schizophrenia or depression.
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I have a few older photographs of parts of Saxonale .
Incidently in one of those photgrphs that some one has already supplied that pagoda looking thing in the middle of the lawn was a ventilation shaft. There was a door and steps which took you down into a tunnel more that six foot high. This ran to other passages under the hospital, a whole network of them
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Back rounds takes me back, I used to be a nurse too. I was based at Mapperley for my training and the girls from Queens went to Saxondale. My mother in law worked there too. I have actually been in an end terrace, it was really quite small...takes me back which is why I enjoyed popping up there to take the pics.
Elaine
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There were never any burials at Saxodale Hospital. There was a mortuary building with a refridgerator, a pathology lab, a chapel of rest viewing room and a room where post mortem were carried out. It was usual for the bodies of patients to be returned to their relatives for burial. Those who ;had no relatives woul usually be buried in Radcliffe cemetery probably in an umarked grave by one of its walls,
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He would not have been buried on site. Thee nearest thing to a burial at Saxondale was when the Head Gardener's ashes were scattered on the bowling green. Some patients who were not returned to their relatives were buried in Radcliffe.
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Hi
Can I just say it is Radcliffe on Trent not Ratcliffe on Soar. Both are in Nottinghamshire and referred to as Radcliffe and Ratcliffe.
Jane
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I know it is some time since this was posted but have only just registered for rootschat. I have just found out that my Grandfather died at Radcliffe on Trent, Mental Hospital in 1927 - Cause of death - General Paralysis of the Insane. I wondered how you got on with finding out any more information as I have drawn a blank with the Hospital Archives, I have sent a message to the Nottingham Archives though so hope to get some info back from there.
Regards.
Auntie G
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Perhaps I am being pedantic but it is Radcliffe not Ratcliffe but there are a couple of Ratcliffes so any research you do might be lead astray. I can tell you that all the records were archived when the hospital closed around 1988. Even the photographs of the staff pantomimes, I believe were saved. The discussed that with the administrator and even offered to give them a home if nowhere could be found for them. In the subways of the hospital were stored ward report books going back to before the hospital was built. The hospital was know under various names. At the time you are refering to it was known either as Notts County Lunatic Asylum or Notts County Mental Hospital Some time later and until it closed it was Saxondale Hospital.
General Paralysis of the Insane was the last stage of Syphillus. There was no cure for this until the arrival of Penicillin but a percentage of people recovered. When I began working at Saxondale in 1957 I recall five such male patients. All had been soldiers in the First World War and penicillin could only arrest the disease but was too late to prevent the damaging effects. During the 19 century I believe the disease was pretty widespread.
At certain stages the disease can be inherited but its effect is obvious and can include early childhood deaths and blindness.
I don't know where the archives are stored you might find their whereabouts on Google or some other site.
Bob
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Thanks for that Bob. I have written to Notts Archives to see if they have anything..
I have googled but there's nothing there not already discusssed.
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Hello..... :)
Welcome to Rootschat!
Here is the link to some of what Nottinghamshire Archives have re the hospital that eventually became Saxondale....
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/a2a/records.aspx?cat=157-soho1&cid=0#0
It is likely that the years you need may be restricted, I discovered the records I need will have to wait another ten years!
Sheila.
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Can I just add....my grandmother worked as a helper of nurses in this hospital - sometime in the 1950s......a lady by the name of violet left this hospital as a patient there and moved in with my granparents for many years. As far as I was told there was nothing mentally wrong with her - she just had a withered arm - that is all. So I can only presume that there were other 'non mental' patients there.
Incidentially, my grandmother was fired from there due to a patient falling in the bath I believe for negligence however this wasnt a job she should have been doing in her role. I think it left a bitter taste in her mouth as she was a very caring person. They had a small holding nearby which was since knocked down and has a modern housing estate on it.
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Hello
I was very interested in reading this thread, as i am trying to find out about my paternal grandmother who was in Saxondale hospital from approx 1942, until she died in 1981.
My dad was a little boy when she went in, and he never really knew why she was admitted. I have sent the forms off to the Nottinghamshire Archives, and am waiting for them to do some research for me.
I was particularly interested as to whether 'URSA MAJOR' could remember her, a long time ago, i know!
Her name was Christiana Morley, but I think they called her Christine.
Thanks
Luckymum X
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Hi I was at saxondale at that time well early 80’s I think chrissy was on Linby ward if she is the lady you are asking about I looked after her my Mum worked there long I will ask her next time I see her xx
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Hello!
Thanks for your reply, She could have been called Chrissy, I’m not sure, I’ll ask my dad. I would be grateful for any other info you or your Mum can remember.. a long time ago, I know!
I did get some info from Nottingham archives, not much really, but just to say she went into saxondale as she was suffering from ‘meloncoly’! Just a for of depression I think, but I guess they didn’t know much about it then. Also it was wartime, and my grandfather was away in the army. X lucky Mum (nicola) X