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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Renfrewshire => Topic started by: elaine447 on Sunday 18 July 10 21:31 BST (UK)
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I have been trying to locate the death of Archibald Lynch
his wife gave birth to a son in 1898 (different father) and on the cert it states
that Archibald died 15yrs ago giving a death of about 1883
I have search SP with no success his parents were James Lynch and Mary Long
according to his marriage to Helen Burns in 1874 he was 19 given him a birth date of 1854-1856
any help appreciated
Elaine
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The only Archibald Lynch showing with a Helen on the 1881 census in all of Scotland appears to be the one below. Perhaps someone has full access?
1 1881 LYNCH ARCHIBALD M 26 GREENOCK OLD OR WEST /RENFREW 564/03 006/03 008
Regards, Steve
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Would be this entry Steve:
Archibald Lynch 26, cooper b. Stirling, Stirlingshire
Helen Lynch 22
Mary Lynch 50
Hugh Lynch 17
Mary Lynch 19
Everyone born in Greenock. Likely this is Archibald's family from what you have said Elaine. I think Archibald must have been born just before 1855. First child for parents on IGI is a daughter Catherine's birth in 1857.
Monica
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Thank you Steve and Monica
this is definately the right family as Archibald gives his occupation as an apprentice cooper
on the marriage cert
although the age is definately 19 on it
but nothing surprises me with this family probably lied about his age ;D
the names of the children help too as I didn't know if they had children or not
Elaine
just realised that is his siblings ::)
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Elaine, have you checked Helen's death entry? Just curious on the wording of her death entry on the Greenock Telegraph - 27.2.1911:
LYNCH - Helen Burns, wife of Archibald Lynch, cooper, died at Smithston Hospital on 25th February 1911.
Wonder why it didn't read widow rather than wife? Might just be the way the notice was written up of course.
Monica
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Which children's names did you mean Elaine? The ones from the 1881 census entry? I think these were Archilbald's siblings.
Monica
Added: ;D See you got that one!
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I have been looking for her death under the name Burns
instead of Lynch as she was supposed to be re-married to a Martin Burns
I wonder if she just said that he died when she registered the birth
I will check that out Monica your a gem
thank you
Elaine
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There is one RC baptism showing for them in 1881 on SP.
Monica
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I am going to buy some credits for SP so I will check that out too
I was getting totally confused with them as on grandfathers birth cert
it states his father is Martin Burns mother Helen Burns M/S Porter
but on Archibald and Helen's marriage it has Helen's M/S as Burns
but her mothers name was Bridget Brogan
previously Porter
Elaine
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See what you mean about confusing :P
I am struggling to see Helen under Burns or Lynch in 1891/1901 with a Greenock birth place, as per her 1881 entry - have you been able to find her? What was your grandfather's name (was it him that was born in 1898?). Might help in finding her in the 1901 census.
Monica
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So, she was Greenock born:
HELEN BURNS Birth: 27 AUG 1857 Middle Or New Parish, Greenock
Parents: JOHN BURNS and BRIDGET BROGAN
Monica
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I thought I had looked for them on 1901 but can't seem to find the cert
then again I probably got side tracked ???
my grandfather was born Patrick Burns in 1898
Monica could I send you the certs and you could see what you make of them
Elaine
that is her birth according to marriage cert
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Got them now I think in 1901 - everyone born in Greenock except for Martin:
Martin Burns 40, Rivetter b. Ireland
Ellen Burns 37
John Burns 11
Eliza Burns 4
Patrick Burns 2
Address: Mckenzie St Bamard Back Land, Greenock
Monica
PS: I'll PM you my email :)
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thanks Monica
thats defiately the right family
Elaine
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Hi Monica
I have now managed to get the death cert for Helen
it still say's married to Archibald Lynch (no deceased) after his name
so I guess we will never know what happened to him
I have also looked at her mothers death cert
Bridget Burns m/s Brogan
married to 1st William Porter 2nd John Burns
so looks as though grandfather gave her first husbands name
as mothers m/s surname on marriage cert
I am still looking for James Lynch
and the others
really just wanted to say thank you to you for your help
it is really appreciated
Elaine
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I have details of James Lynch who is my husband's grandfather. Too much info to put on here. But I have no details of Archibald Lynch after 1881 when James Lynch was born. Is there a way I can get in touch with you to discuss this.
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Hi UVL
welcome to Rootschat :)
if you post another two posts you can then send and receive personal messages
Elaine
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Read all the posts here. All match with what I have. Didn't know anything about Ellen Burns except her death.
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James Lynch was on census 1891 in an institution in Glasgow and then in Ireland on a farm as a child labourer. Appears in 1901 census living with a John burns & family as a cousin. Always said he was an orphan from Ireland. Been trying for a long time to find out more info.
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UVL I have sent you a PM, :)
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Sorry to hijack an old thread, but Google just found this for me.
My GGGG-Grandmother was Bridget Brogan, and my GGGG-Grandfather was William Porter...
They came from Co. Donegal, and Bridget, her daughter Mary, and grandson John came over to Greenock (possibly more, but these are the ones I know of).
William and Bridget had a son John Porter (can't find anything about him), but I know their grandson John ended up here as he had 10 children, and the 2nd of which was my Great Grandfather James.
I recently made contact with someone who can trace back to William and Bridget's daughter Mary (who married a Charles Boyle in Greenock).
So from what I understand, William Porter married Bridget Brogan on 20 AUG 1835, and had the following children;
Elizabeth Porter 1836
Mary Porter 1839, Married Charles Boyle and lived in Greenock
Sarah Porter 1847
John Porter 1848, married a Martha Lawrie or Galbraith, having at least one son, John Porter (who married Elixabeth McDermott, and moved from Greenock to Rothesay, Bowling, Polmont, Grangemouth and back to Greenock, having 10 children on the way).
Susan Porter 1851
Eleanor Porter 1854
William must have died at some point after 1853, and Bridget remarried John Burns, and had;
Helen Burns 27 AUG 1857, who married Archibald Lynch in 1874, then Martin Burns in the 1880s?
Interestingly, Bridget Brogan went by the name Bridget Porter in 1891 as she's listed as living with her daughter Mary Boyle (nee Porter) at 40 Shaw Street in Greenock. She died in 1898;
Death Record,
PORTER,
Bridget,
1898,
Bridget Brogan Porter, mother of John died at Mrs Boyle's 1 William Street, in Aug 1898 (Greenock Telegraph 23.8.1898).
I can't find details of her marriage to John Burns, or the death of William Porter for that matter...
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Hi samtheskull
Welcome to RootsChat :)
An online family tree for this family of William and Bridget show their children, up to Eleanor in 1854, all baptised in Raphoe, Co. Donegal. Some original sources included there.
It may be that William died in Ireland and possibly also that Bridget could have married John Burns there before coming to Scotland by 1857 with the birth of Helen in Greenock. Just a guess really. Have you viewed Helen's birth cert in 1857 https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/FQ7N-W9L. If so, does it actually show John and Bridget as married (normally clues from the way the mother's names is written up on the registration). However, Bridget's death cert as has been mentioned does list the names of both husbands.
Is this Bridget in 1861:
Beddy Burns 48 Stocking Knitter b. Ireland
Susan Burns 10 b. Ireland
Helen Burns 4 b. Greenock
Sarah Brogan 15 niece Flax Mill Worker b. Ireland
Address: 6 Smith's Lane
Have you viewed the original to see whether she showed as widow by now or still married to John Burns?
Have you searched for a possible death for a John Burns in Greenock anywhere from 1856-61 (assuming for now Bridget showed as a widow by 1861)?
Monica
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Possible marriage for Susan Porter to a Michael McCrossan? https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/XYQZ-788
I can see one birth here for them https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/FQT2-D6X but if this is the right entry for them in 1881, this young William may have died by then and no further children showing in the household:
Michael McCrossin 28 Sugar House Labourer b. Ireland
Susan McCrossin 30 wife b. Ireland
Edward Flyn 26 lodger
Thomas Brannan 26 lodger
Patrick Mc Keetue 50 lodger
Address: No 8 Ann St, Greenock
Monica
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An online family tree for this family of William and Bridget show their children, up to Eleanor in 1854, all baptised in Raphoe, Co. Donegal. Some original sources included there.
There looks to be a death in 1855 in Greenock of a Helen Porter born c. 1855. Mother's maiden name showing as Brogan. Possibly Eleanor who was baptised in Raphoe in 1854? If so, this would help you with timings and more importantly let you check whether father William Porter was already deceased by this date. 1855 and the first year of official registration, a lot of extra info was included for one year only. Worth checking to see, if the correct family, what extra bits were included in terms of info.
Monica
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Can I ask a question? How have you made the link of your line of John Porter & Elizabeth McDermott, son of John Porter & Martha Galbraith...to the family of William Porter and Bridget Brogan?
We have John, son of William and Bridget, being christened in 1848 in Co. Donegal.
Is this the same John who married Martha and had a son John c. 1863-4 (1891 census states in Strabane, Co Tyrone). What did it say for his birth place in 1901 and 1911? (maybe just Ireland which is always the issue :-\). John from Raphoe may only have been around 16 years old potentially at the time of John's c.1863/4 birth.
From 1891:
John Porter 27 ship riveter b. Strabane, Ireland
Elizabeth Porter 25 b. Greenock
John Porter 6
James Porter 4...your ggrandfather
Elizabeth Porter 3
Mertha Porter 1
Address: 64 Lumley St, Grangemouth
Monica
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Wow Monica, wow! ;)
Ok, you've asked a few questions there, so I'm going to do my best - I'll work my way backward
I'm Scott Brown Porter, born 1982, eldest of 2
My Dad is Charles Brown Porter, youngest of 4
My Grandfather was Charles Brown Porter, eldest of 11
My Great Grandfather was James Campbell Porter, 2nd of 10 children
My Great Great Grandfather was John Porter
John married Elizabeth McDermott (sometimes spelt McDermid) who was born in Greenock on 23/12/1865. The married in Rothesay on 06/12/1884, and had their first son John McDermott Porter there on 08/01/1885. I'm assuming the fact she was 8 months pregnant is why they moved to Rothesay. John McDermott Porter was Provost of Greenock for a while in 1955. I have a few documents and photos of him, as well as of his mother Elizabeth.
They then moved to Bowling, Dunbartonshire and had James Campbell Porter on 09/09/1886 and Elizabeth Campbell Porter on 17/02/1888.
They moved to Polmont, and had Martha Galbraith Porter on 22/02/1880 (note the middle name!).
They moved to Grangemouth, and had William Porter on 03/03/1892 and Thomas Campbell Porter (I'm in touch with 2 of his granddaughters).
Then finally back to Greenock to have Richard McDermott Porter on 02/03/1896, Margaret Ford Porter on 22/01/1898, George Smith Porter on 17/06/1900 (who emigrated to Australia, and I'm in touch with a son of his), and finally Charles Brown Porter on 09/08/1902 (my Grandfather was named after him).
Family history had said the 7 brothers came over from Ireland, but I traced the census info from 1891 to 1911 to track their movements, and the brothers (and sisters we hadn't known about) were all born in Scotland, but it was their father who came over.
This John was born circa 1863 and lists his origin as Ireland (1881), Ireland Strabane (1891), Ireland (1901), Ireland (1911).
There had always been some debate in the family where in Co Donegal they came from, some saying Letterkenny, some Mountcharles and the odd mention of Raphoe, but this just added more confusion until I found out Rathoe in Co donegal was in the Strabane PLU (Poor Law Union) catchment area.
I happened to look for John on the 1881 census to see where he was before he married, and found him in Greenock at 6 Crossshore Street, living with Bridget Brogan; she was the head, and he was listed as her grandson. I then found her death notification;
Bridget Brogan Porter, mother of John died at Mrs Boyle's 1 William Street, in Aug 1898 (Greenock Telegraph 23.8.1898).
From this, I found her as Bridget Porter on the 1891 census living with Mary Boyle as her Mother. Using this, I traced someone else researching Mary Boyle's family, so knew Bridget had at least 2 children, Mary and John.
From Bridget's death cert, I found her 1st husband was William Porter, and managed to track down their wedding in Raphoe, which had her listed as Biddy (a common name for Bridget in Ireland at the time apparently), and found her children;
Elizabeth Porter Date of Birth: 16-Mar-1836 Date of Baptism: 27-Mar-1836
Mary Porter Date of Birth: -- Date of Baptism: 06-Jan-1839
Sarah Porter Date of Birth: 30-Jun-1847 Date of Baptism: 15-Aug-1847
John Porter Date of Birth: 14-Oct-1848 Date of Baptism: 03-Nov-1848
Susan Porter Date of Birth: 14-Jun-1851 Date of Baptism: 20-Jul-1851
Eleanor Porter Date of Birth: 30-Jun-1854 Date of Baptism: 30-Aug-1854
The only questionable bit (as you mention) was that John Porter (who married Elizabeth McDermott) was born circa 1862/3/4, and his father was William & Bridget's son John who was born 1848, making him just 14/15/16 when his son John was born. That seems very young for that era (sadly not nowadays).
Anyway, getting back to the point...
My Great Great Great Grandfather was John Porter
From his son John's marriage cert in 1884, we know he was an engine fitter, and married to Martha Lawrie.
From his son John's death cert in 1932, we know he was a deceased 'plater', and had been married to Martha Galbraith.
Other than that, I knew nothing of him or Martha, I only found his parents were William and Bridget Boyle from finding his son's grandmother (as mentioned above), which led me to find his birth cert in Raphoe in 1848.
My Great Great Great Great Grandfather was William Porter
He married Bridget Brogan on 20/08/1835 in Raphoe. (See attached)
(continued...)
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(continued...)
"There looks to be a death in 1855 in Greenock of a Helen Porter born c. 1855. Mother's maiden name showing as Brogan. Possibly Eleanor who was baptised in Raphoe in 1854? "
I've checked the record on SP. Helen Porter died aged 9 months, daughter of, wait for it, William Porter and Bridget Porter (Brogan). It gives her origin as Donegal, and states she was only in Greenock for 8 days when she died on 31/03/1855 from Small Pox at 6 Smith's Lane. Given the timing, this must have been Eleanor (unless they had twins in 1854).
"An online family tree for this family of William and Bridget show their children, up to Eleanor in 1854, all baptised in Raphoe, Co. Donegal. Some original sources included there."
What online tree? Do you have a link?
"It may be that William died in Ireland and possibly also that Bridget could have married John Burns there before coming to Scotland by 1857 with the birth of Helen in Greenock."
Yes, I agree. I've checked both RootsIreland and ScotlandsPeople and can't find a definite death of William. Of course it's possible that the reason Bridget moved to Greenock was that William had run off, and so she couldn't remarry in Raphoe. Unlikely, but I have an instance of that on my mother's side.
"Is this Bridget in 1861:
Beddy Burns 48 Stocking Knitter b. Ireland
Susan Burns 10 b. Ireland
Helen Burns 4 b. Greenock
Sarah Brogan 15 niece Flax Mill Worker b. Ireland
Address: 6 Smith's Lane"
I'd say so - the ages match, as does the address (from Eleanor's death cert). I've just downloaded the original from SP and confirmed;
Biddy Burns (the I has been mistaken for an E in transcription as there is not dot visible), Head, 48 Stocking Knitter, b. Ireland
Susan (no surname listed, not even 'do'), Daughter, 10,b. Ireland
Helen(no surname listed, not even 'do'), Daughter, 4,b. Greenock
Sarah Brogan, niece, 15, Flaxmill worker,b. Ireland
John is not listed, so is either away on work, or deceased, or had left). There are 2 possible deaths on for him around that time;
1 1856 BURNS JOHN 47 GREENOCK OLD OR WEST /RENFREW 564/03 0467
4 1863 BURNS JOHN 35 GREENOCK OLD OR WEST /RENFREW 564/03 0577
"Possible marriage for Susan Porter to a Michael McCrossan? https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/XYQZ-788"
Good find, again the cert from SP shows;
16/07/1872
Michael McCrossan, 25, Sugar House Labourer, father John McCrossan, Labourer, mother Margaret (Braimen? I've requested a rescan).
Susan Porter, 21, Haymill Worker?, father William Porter, Labourer, mother Bridget Brogan.
And now I'm out of credits again.... ;)
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A lot of info there...which is good ;)
Helen Porter's death that you have now viewed...was father William showing as deceased then? Poor Eleanor/Helen, only 8 days in Scotland. So sad really :-\
Did Bridget show as a widow or still married on the 1861 census image that you viewed?
Hadn't viewed 1881 :P Adding here now for background:
Bridget Brogan 67, Lodging House Keeper b. Ireland
John Porter 18 grandson, Apptce Rivetter b. Ireland
John Hervey 68 boarder b. Ireland
Agnes McCairns 40 boarder b. Greenock
Address: 6 Cross Shore St, Greenock
Monica
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Hi Monica,
Yeah, it took a few hours to compose it. ;)
On Eleanor (aka Helen)'s death William was not listed as deceased. However the informant was an uncle, a John Corns? (hard to read surname). He may just not have mentioned if William was alive or not.
On the 1861 census for Bridget, it doesn't show if widowed or not,it simply says head, and has no column for marital status
I have the 1881 (that's how I found out about Bridget, as I was looking for where John was living prior to his marriage in 1884, as his address was listed in Greenock. It took me a couple of views to notice he was Bridget's grandson, not just another boarder.
On the 1891 census, she is living with Mary Boyle (her daughter) and family at 40 Shaw Street.
Mary Boyle, Head, W, 52, Donegal
Edward Boyle, Son, Unm, 23, Shipyard Labourer, Greenock
Thomas Boyle, Son, Unm, 21, Steamship Stoker, Greenock
William Boyle, Son, Unm, 18, Apprentice Baker, Greenock
Mary Boyle, Daur, 16, Unemployed, Greenock
Bridget Boyle, Daur, 11, Scholar, Greenock
Bridget Porter, Mother, W, 80, Assistant?, Donegal
Take care,
Scott
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Been watching this with interest ... Greenock / sugarbakers ...
John Corn, 51, of Donegal, sugarbaker, 20 East Shaw St.
Wife Rossan 36, dau Brigett 2, Thomas 9.
1851 census Greenock West.
Michael McCrossin also on database, but can't see others you've mentioned. Worth a look as there was so much inter-marriage amongst sugarbaker families (both Irish and German).
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Thanks sugarbakers :) That 1851 entry certainly seems to place John Corn/s as Uncle to Eleanor at the right time in Greenock. Can't see any more about this family after this time.
Scott, double blows you have going on there. So, no mention as to whether William was already deceased when we have Bridget in Greenock with young Eleanor's death in 1855. Also, no confirmation from her 1861 census entry from what you mention. Haven't been able to find Bridget in 1871. You have the 1881/1891 entries for her.
The only possible source of further info from that mid to late 1850s period would be the marriage cert of daughter Mary Porter to Charles Boyle in 1858. The only thing I have seen for them is the RC marriage entry for their marriage on 1 Nov 1858 at St Mary's in Greenock. RC marriage entries do not include the same info as statutory marriage records unfortunately so no info on Mary's parents there.
Just been re-reading....
Regarding Bridget's death on 21 Aug 1898 in 1 William St, Greenock at her daughter's Mary's house:
Death Record PORTER Bridget 1898 Bridget Brogan Porter, mother of John died at Mrs Boyle‟s 1 William Street, in Aug 1898 (Greenock Telegraph 23.8.1898) Source: intimations www.inverclyde.gov.uk/Search?k=intimations
Mother of John...makes me think he is local and around at the time perhaps?
Monica
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There is this entry for example in 1901:
John Porter 52 Ship Plalie (?plater) b. Ireland
Agnes Porter 52 b. Greenock
Susan Porter 13 b. Greenock
Jonet Porter 8 b. Grangemonth, Stirlingshire *
William Porter 6 b. Grangemonth, Stirlingshire
Joseph Porter 5 b. Govan, Renfrewshire
Samuel Gorden 65
Address: High Street Woodland P, Campbeltown Argyll
* Doesn't mean anything really, but your John Porter was in Grangemouth in 1891 (at 4 Lumley St)?
Need to find more before hitting the SP trail....
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Moving from tepid...to a little warmer ;)
Ok, possible John Snr from above as father to your John and son of William and Bridget....
We have him with wife Agnes in 1901 in Campbeltown. I think this is his entry in 1891:
John Porter 46 ship plater b. Ireland
Sarah Porter 16 b. Greenock
Mary Porter 11 b. Greenock
Charles Porter 8 b. Greenock
Susan Porter 3 b. Greenock
Address: 79 Lumley St, Grangemouth
As you know, we don't know what John above's marital status is from just the transcript, so not sure if he shows as widower here in 1891 and then married Agnes, or Agnes was just not there on the night of 1891.
What I also like, apart from the names which are very much like family first names from William and Bridget's family, is the addresses we have for 1891 in Grangemouth:
John Snr - 79 Lumley St
John Jnr - 4 Lumley St
I am quietly hopefull ;D Sad if it doesn't connnect.
Monica
PS: I love photos ::) http://tompaterson.co.uk/albums/FalkirkPostcards/index.php?showimage=Grangemouth%2C%20Lumley%20Street.jpg&screenwidth=1600
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Working back to 1881, all the children born in Greenock:
John Porter 36 Railway Plater b. Ireland
Margaret Porter 32 b. Ireland
Margaret Porter 8
Sarah Porter 6
William Porter 4
Mary Porter 11 Months
Address: 32 Crescent St, Greenock
John Porter and Margaret Hisplop as a possible couple? Marriage in 1872 https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/XYQC-244 First born we have on census, Margaret's birth here likely in 1873 https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/FQ4F-CNL
Monica
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There is a death for a Margaret Porter/Hislop in 1883, Greenock.
There is a marriage in 1891 in the Falkirk area, Stirlingshire for a John Porter and an Agnes. Likely after the date of the 1891 census?
Monica
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Time away and clear head. We do indeed have John, son of William and Bridget :) No idea how young John was born in Ireland to a very young John Snr, but life is like that ::) Specially when we haven't found John Snr in Scotland on the 1861 Scottish Census. Lives were very complicated then (now ::)) for sure.... :-\
This is a snippet from John Snr.'s marriage to Margaret Hislop's 1872 marriage (RC too at St Mary's Greenock... www.stmarysgreenock.org/History/History.html). He looks to have been living with his mum Bridget (from the address we have in 1881 for Bridget) at 6 Cross Shore Street in Greenock. No reference to Bridget having remarried to a Burns....likely that too is complicated really.
John shows as aged 26 in 1872...so maybe the 1848 christening does not reflect his birth year.
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Monica, will you marry me? ;D You put Jessica Flether & Miss Marple to shame!
Yes, I agree, the post on Bridget's death does suggest her son John was local, but I've hadn't been able to find him. I have the 1861, 1881, & 1981 census images for Bridget, but can't find her in 1871.
I also have Charles Boyle and Mary Porter's marriage cert. It lists Mary's father as John Porter, Labourer, dead, not William, although her birth cert lists it as William. However, thinking about it, her mother Bridget had remarried to John Burns by this point, which could be the reason for the mistake. (Mary married in 1858, but her half-sister Helen Burns was born in 1857).
(As we have so many Johns, I'm adding a generation mareker - William is {a}, his children are {b} etc)
An alternative is that William {a} was his middle name. We know from his marriage his father was John. Perhaps he was John William Porter, and went by William to avoid confusion?
Yes John {c} (William {a} and Bridget's grandson) was in Grangemouth circa 1892 to 1894, presumably working at the shipyard there. There are still a few Porters in Grangemouth today, but I don't think there's a link.
He was born in Ireland around 1864.
So you've found his father, John {b} - that's brilliant! We know his (presumably) 1st wife was Martha Galbraith or Lawrie from John's {c} marriage and death certs. Time to get some more credits on SP...
On William's {c} and Janet's {c} birth certs it gives John {b} and Agnes' marriage as 29/09/1891 in Falkirk.
Putting it all together (I've just checked all the births, deaths and marriages on SP - it took a while, and I found another wife (no wonder he started having kids at 14!));
Timeline for John Porter {b}
John Porter {b} born 14/10/1848, Raphoe, Co Donegal
John Porter {b} baptised 03/11/1848, Raphoe, Co Donegal
John Porter {b} married Martha (Galbraith on John's {c} death or Lawrie on John's {c} marraige)
John Porter {c} born 1864, Co Donegal
Martha dies circa 1864-1872
John Porter {b} married Margaret Hislop, 04/07/1872, Greenock
Margaret Porter born 02/02/1873, Greenock
Sarah Porter born 12/08/1874, Greenock
William Porter {c1} born 29/11/1876, Greenock
Mary Porter born 11/05/1879, Greenock
Charles Porter born 12/11/1882, Greenock
Margaret dies 13/06/1883, Greenock, of Pneumonia
John Porter {b} married Mary Bain, widow of James Currie, 14/03/1887, Greenock
Susan Porter born 12/04/1888, Greenock
Mary dies 16/10/1889, Greenock, of Pneumonia
John Porter {b} married Agnes Munro 11/10/1891, Falkirk (subsequent births all state marriage was 29/09/1891 - given John's numerous weddings, we can forgivehim getting the date wrong)
Janet Porter born 13/08/1892, Grangemouth
William Porter {c2} born 09/11/1893, Grangemouth
Joseph Porter born 16/10/1895, Govan
John {b} dies 28/03/1916, Greenock, of 'Senile Sebilitic'? & Enlarged Prostate & Retention of Urine
Agnes dies 08/01/1957, Alloa, of Congestive Cardiac Failure (notified by son-in-law John Clark, 104 Greenfield Street, Alloa)
Timeline for John Porter {c} for comparison
John Porter {c} born 1864, Co Donegal
John Porter {c} married Elizabeth McDermott 08/12/1884, Rothesay
John McDermott Porter {d} born 05/01/1885, Rothesay
James Campbell Porter born 09/09/1886, Bowling
Elizabeth Campbell Porter born 17/02/1888, Bowling
Martha Galbraith Porter born 22/02/1890, Polmont
William Porter {d} born 03/03/1892, Grangemouth
Thomas Campbell Porter born 24/01/1894, Grangemouth
Richard McDermott Porter born 02/03/1896, Greenock
Margaret Ford Porter born 22/01/1898, Greenock
George Smith Porter born 17/06/1900, Greenock
Charles Brown Porter born 09/08/1902, Greenock
John Porter {c} died 27/03/1932, Greenock
John Porter {c} dies 27/03/1932, Greenock
Elizabeth McDermott dies 05/05/1950, Greenock
Sugarbakers, I'm attaching the informant part Eleanor (Helen)'s death cert to see if you think it is John Corns?;
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Goodness, you have been so busy on SP, remortgage app in the post ;D
You have the family now don't you for your direct line to William and Agnes. I am really happy that we broke through there to make the link. You also a whole bunch of half siblings to your John b. 1864 to follow up....will keep you busy for a while ::)
John (b) b. 1848, did his DC name all four wives or just from Margaret Hisplop? Did it show Martha as wife? I only ask because, given the ages, John (b) and Martha may not have married so you may be searching for a birth/christening in Ireland under Lawrie/Galbraith, if John's 1863/4 birth was illegitimate.
Do you have a subs to A/try? Someone has a family tree for Margaret Hislop. The surname seemes to vary to Hazelton. More details on her ancestors are on that tree under Hazelton.
We should all be open to all forms of spellling variations and movements of names over time....
By the way, this is a great site for first name variants which has a strong bias to Scottish names:
www.whatsinaname.net/php/search.php?action=search2&search_name=biddy
Monica :)
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Yes, I read that as Corns.
Looking at FamilySearch there's a possibility that Corn/Corns may be a corruption of Corran.
I've been searching for the connection ... 'uncle' ... but so far can't find John Corn's marriage to Rossan, however there is a marriage of a John Corran to Elizabeth Porter, 17, d/o William Porter, at the aforementioned Raphoe, Donegal, 18 May 1852 (FamilySearch).
Might this be William & Bridget's first child and maybe a Corn connection.
In fact, is this the John Corns, the informant (actually Eleanor/Helen's brother-in-law rather than uncle) ... so my suggestion of John Corn the sugarbaker may not be correct :( .
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That is a really good proposal, sugarbakers :) Rossann (Rose Ann etc) could have been a first wife to John Corn/s (with all variations) pre 1851. Might explain why we can see no trace of John and Rossan in later censuses if he went back to Donegal potentially and married Elizabeth Porter (all guess work, but sometimes that is all we have ::)).
Monica
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My head hurts... ;)
On John Porter's {b} DC it just list Agnes as his wife, but she is the informant, so I wouldn't have thought she would have listed his first 3 marriages.
Yes, I have considered that - I've been looking for a Martha Lawrie or Martha Galbraith for years. Unfortunately Donegal was badly affected by the Four Courts Fire, so we may just never know. I am planning a trio to Raphoe at some point to see if I can find out more.
I used to have an ancestry sub, but let it lapse. I have GenesReunited on an annual sub, and have a one-month sub on RootsIreland until 06/11/14, as they've just switched from a credits system to subs, so I got a discount using my leftover credits.
I'll maybe get a one-month sub on ancestry. Do you have a link to the tree? Also, you mentioned a tree for William & Bridget;
An online family tree for this family of William and Bridget show their children, up to Eleanor in 1854, all baptised in Raphoe, Co. Donegal. Some original sources included there.
Sugarbakers, I found the marriage you mentioned on RootsIreland. See attached. Uncle may have been used more loosely that it is nowadays. For example, son-in-law originally meant a stepson. Given that he was at least 23 years older than Eleanor (he was over 21 in 1852), it would make sense.
However, I also found a John Curran and Rose Ann Carson (attached).
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That is a great find of the marriage of John Curran to Elizabeth Porter. I would think that is the marriage. Some children showing for them in Scotland, all in Greenock:
Sarah 1861 https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/FQ4N-FJF
Susan 1864 https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/FQ4N-SK3
John 1865 https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/FQG2-G3R
Joseph 1866 https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/F73P-G9N
I think this is them in 1861 in Greenock:
John Corren 28 Quay Labourer b. Ireland
Betty Corren 25 b. Ireland
Mary Corren 7 b. Ireland
Elizabeth Corren 2 b. Ireland
Address: 6 Smith's Lane, Greenock....which is the address we first pick up on for the reporting of baby Eleanor's death. Bridget still there in 1861 and her family entry.
sugarbakers, don't think the 1851 we discussed earlier is correct now but without your initial find, not sure we have easily found Elizabeth, eldest (?) born daughter of William and Bridget.
Monica
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On John Porter's {b} DC it just list Agnes as his wife, but she is the informant, so I wouldn't have thought she would have listed his first 3 marriages.
Scottish death certs very often include the name of previous spouses and in order of marriage which can be really helpful. However, with the expection of Martha's relationship (still not sure of a marriage there ::)) the rest of John's marriages you have been able to verify really.
Monica
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For the Currans, 1871:
John Curran 40 labourer . Ireland
Elizabeth Curran 36 b. Ireland
Mary Curran 17
Teresa Curran 15
Joseph Curran 4
Address: 32 Sugarhouse Land, Greenock
Elizabeth Porter Curran I think died the following year in 1872 in Greenock.
Monica
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sugarbakers, don't think the 1851 we discussed earlier is correct now but without your initial find, not sure we have easily found Elizabeth, eldest (?) born daughter of William and Bridget.
Agreed, Monica. A different family altogether, but, as you say, it helped the research.
The Porter/Brogan tree on A**y shows Elizabeth as eldest child born close to parents marriage (1835), which matches her age at marriage and on the censuses.
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Scott and sugarbakers, just in summary of some of the info from the last couple of pages, re the children of William Porter and Bridget Brogan:
Elizabeth Porter Date of Birth: 16-Mar-1836 Date of Baptism: 27-Mar-1836
- to confirm, but likely she married John Curran in 1852 in Ireland from what you both have found. Her death cert in Greenock 1872 will help finalise her details.
Mary Porter Date of Birth: -- Date of Baptism: 06-Jan-1839
- Mary's info is clear and you are in contact with a descendant and have details. She married a Charles Boyle.
Sarah Porter Date of Birth: 30-Jun-1847 Date of Baptism: 15-Aug-1847
- we don't have anything further for Sarah.
John Porter Date of Birth: 14-Oct-1848 Date of Baptism: 03-Nov-1848
- potentially up to four wives from what you have now: Martha Galbraith (or Lawrie), Margaret Hislop, Mary Bain and Agnes Munro. All confirmed with certs expect for Martha (your direct line's mother).
Susan Porter Date of Birth: 14-Jun-1851 Date of Baptism: 20-Jul-1851
- confirmed as having married Michael McCrossin in 1872.
Eleanor Porter Date of Birth: 30-Jun-1854 Date of Baptism: 30-Aug-1854
- confirmed as having died in Greenock in 1855.
Apart from Sarah who may have died in Ireland (?) and we have no further details on, we are pretty good now on events for the Porters in the mid to late 1800s now.
Monica