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Wales (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Wales => Breconshire => Topic started by: yattonharry on Wednesday 21 July 10 14:48 BST (UK)
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I am writing about my very big brick wall. I do hope that someone can help me.
My great grandfather William JONES was born 18 July 1840 at 'Brynmig' Dylais Higher, Cadoxton juxta Neath. His father John JONES was a farmer at that time and his mother was Gwenllian CURTIS.
I have the census data for this family, and the death certificate of both parents. His father John died 26 April 1869 at Craig y Forest, Cilybebyll, Cadoxton. aged 64 now a general labourer [ he had been a woodward at his son's marriage and on a census]
His mother Gwenllian JONES [nee Curtis], died 1st June 1887 at Ynisymudw, Llanguick, Pontardawe aged 78 the widow of John Jones labourer. The informant was her son Jenkin JONES in attendance at Ynisymudw, Llanguick, Pontardawe.
I cannot find the baptisms or birth certificates of great grandfather William JONES other siblings. These were Morgan, Jenkin, Rees, Mary and John. It looks from census, as if Morgan remained a bachelor.
The marriage of the parents John JONES=Gwenllian CURTIS possibly took place about 1836 when son Morgan was born.
I have searched for years for this information, had a message in the local newspaper, all to no avail. Family lore told of Rees working or owning a pub, The Smiths Arms, and that John and another brother worked as a school caretaker and caretaker? of a Pontadawe Club.
Have looked at Polling District MM Alltygrug Ward [PT] Post Town Ystalyfera, Swansea and found a Rees Jones 322 R O 25 Canal Tce.,Annie Jones 321
Also at
25 Canal Tce., are Brazell Stan Fleming
25 Canal Tce.Brazell Mary Eunice
25 Canal Tce.,Found Stanley on 1901 2 months old.[RG13/5064/folio 141 verso/ page20] Standley [sic] Fleming BRAZELL is a few months old and living Nr Pant[l]eg Chapel,Ystlayfera, Alltygrug. His father John is a Tinplateworker.and his Birth Mar Qtr 1901-Brazell Stanley Fleming Pontardawe 11a 983
I mention the Brazell family as they with the Jones' attended my great aunt's funeral in 1936 Rhondda. My great aunt, was John JONES and Gwenllian Curtis, grand-daughter.
I have often wondered if they married in Breconshire, or other county, and so I ask for your kind help over this.
I apologise for the length of this request.
Jill
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why have you posted on breconshire board when on census the family are b. Glamorgan and lived Glamorgan???
Or am I following the wrong family????
Suz
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>I have often wondered if they married in Breconshire, or other county, and so I ask for your kind help over this.
This is why!
Thanks Jill
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The 1841 Census has the family at "Brynryg, Cadoxton, Dylais, Higher". Glam FHS transcriptions has the baptism at the Parish Church of St Catwg, Cadoxton juxta Neath of -
Jones, Mary, father John, occ Mason, mother Gwenllian, bapt 26 Feb 1846, address Brynrhig
Occupation doesn't fit John (farmer 1841 and woodman 1851) but a possibility?
Of the others no trace - after checking the surrounding Parishes (Llantwit Lower, Blaengarwch, Briton Ferry, Neath, Llansamlet, Llangyfellach, Llangiwg, Baglan and Michaelston super Avon).
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I am really indebted to you. Thank you so much for searching for me. I am going to go through my research again. It was done years ago when the Glam 1851 CD came out. I was looking for a woodman named John Jones and this one came up, and I seem to have hung on in there. I am a but ashamed to say that I have bought loads of certificates too for this family, and it was all nice and cosy - except for the link from my William to this particular John Jones. Why our Welsh ancestors didn't see the patronymic naming pattern was storing up problems earlier I don't know. ;-((
I agree that the farmer and woodman don't fit too well. Neither does the age of my William Jones. In August 1873 he married and that fact I have substantiated and it all fits correctly. His age is 28 years a Stone Mason and his father is John Jones [deceased] Woodward. If he is not telling porkies at his marriage then he wasn't born in 1840 at all, but 1845!!
Oh dear.
Thanks for the help.
Jill
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yattonharry,
How have you established that your William's mother's maiden name was Curtis?
regards
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Not if I discount the Birth certificate I have for the William Jones on census. Here are details in case it is of interest.
18th July 1840 'Brynmig' Dylais Higher, Cadoxton.
William/Boy/Father John JONES/Mother Gwenllian Jones formerly CURTIS Farmer. The mother registered on 26th Aug 1840 of same address.
Thanks Jill
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Hi again, I have been looking through some papers and I have a query over Curtis and apparently the registrar found a marriage between John Jones and Gwenllian WILLIAMS. I wonder if I have the correct Birth Certificate?
Jill
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yattonharry,
There's a marriage of a John Jones of Cadoxton, Neath to a Gwenllian Morgan of Cadoxton, Neath on 15 May 1837 (Banns, Witnesses and Consent) - another possible.
Why not post full details of your William's marriage,1873 (wife's details, addresses, both father's occupations - everything) plus whatever census details you have for the pair post marriage. Can then take it from there?
regards
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My gt grandfather was a William JONES,a Stone Mason/Contractor Builder, born possibly about 1843 in Ystalyfera,Neath. On his marriage certificate August 20, 1873,Carmel Chapel, Pontypridd, to Ffryswith Elizabeth Davies, aged 21 years, spinster, daughter of Thomas and Elizabeth [Bevan] Davies, father Coal miner [but later, Innkeeper and owner of the Dunraven Hotel, Tonypandy] William aged 28, batchelor, a Stone Mason says that his deceased father was John JONES a Woodman of Neath. Both the bride and groom give their residence as Pandy, Rhondda Valley.
William moved from his place of birth to Tonypandy and was involved with the building in the new village of Trealaw. William died 29 Jun 1894 at 112 Miskin Rd., Trealaw, Rhondda, Glam. He is buried at Zoar Baptist Chapel, Penygraig, Rhondda, Glam
The Obituary of William and Ffryswith's daughter Mary Jane THOMAS who died 17 Apr 1936 shows that there were many named JONES from Pontadawe who came to her funeral. I enquired of my mother’s cousins about these people and was told that these came from Pontadawe, Trebanos and Ystalyfera, all in the same area.
Dates from census and certs.
1894 at death on 28 June is 51
1894 Tombstone is 51 [b then 1843]
1891 Wm says he is b 1845 [46] a Mason b Ystalyfera;
1881 b 1846 [35] b.Neath;
1873 at marriage he is 28 b 1845;
1871 b 1846 b Ystalyfera;
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Family have told me [ now all dead] "a relative Maggie Jones Ystradowen, School teacher Ystalyfera County School. Lived in
Railway Tce Ystradwen with her blind brother Dick"
Also that the family kept the 'Smith Arms' Pontadawe [ I think the place was]
Thank you for any clues you can throw my way. I now live in Oxfordshire and it is most difficult to research in Wales, where I was born and brought up.
Jill
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yattonharry,
1861 Census
John Jones, Head, 60, Woodcutter
Gwenllian Jones, Wife, 52
Morgan Jones, Son, 25, Labourer
Jenkin Jones, Son, 23, Smith
William Jones, Son, 20, Mason
Mary Jones, Dau, 16
John Jones, Son, 10
All born Cadoxton, address Cray Forest Cottage, Kilybebill
1851 Census
John Jones, Head, 48, Woodman
Gwenllian Jones, Wife, 46
Morgan Jones, Son, 15, Scourer at Tin Works
Jenkin Jones, Son 14, Scourer at Tin Works
William Jones, Son, 11,
Rees Jones, Son, 8
Mary Jones, Dau, 6
John Jones, Son, 11mths
All born Cadoxton juxta Neath, address Danyrawel, Cadoxton juxta Neath
1841
John Jones, 40, Farmer
Gwenllian Jones, 30
Morgan Jones, 5
Jenkin Jones, 4
William Jones, 10 mths
All born in County (Glam), address Brynryg, Cadoxton, Dylais Higher (part of)
These lead to a William Jones on the 1871 Census
William Jones, Lodger, married, 25, Mason, b. Ystalyfera.
and at the same household/address
Ffryswith Davies, Dau, Unmarried, 16, Housemaid, b. Ystradfodwg
Do you have any information about a possible earlier marriage for your William? William's age of 25 on the census, and later declarationss, might have something to do with Ffryswyth's tender years?
regards
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Thank you for confirming my findings. That is such a a great help. There is no evidence of William marrying earlier but family lore, without knowledge of any documents told me that the brides' parents were not in favour of the marriage as he was older. I can see now, something I had overlooked and that she was only 19 when she married, but said 21. Oh dear! Her birthday was 05 Jun 1854.
If I have a wrong 'marriage' it may well be the father's. I wonder if he could have married twice both to lasses called Gwenllian?
Very many thanks for the help.
Jill
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The William Jones on the 1841 Census is described as "10 mths old". The Census was taken 6/7 June 1841. This would put Williams birth about Aug-Oct 1840. The birth might have been registered in the Dec1840 or Mar 1841 Quarter. FreeBMD has
William Jones, Dec 1840, Neath 26 394
" " " " " 26 398
" " " " " 26 401
" " " " " 26 383
William Jones, Jan 1841, Neath 26 473
" " " " " 26 473
" " " " " 26 475
" " " " " 26 470
You can send an enquiry to the Register Office (Neath/Portalbot?) giving Williams details + parents names and the office should search for the relevant entry. An alternative to sending for GRO certs.
No guarantee your William is one of these and you can expand the reg quarters around this time.
regards
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Who were William + Ffrystwyth's witnesses?
I have alread mentioned the marriage of John Jones + Gwenllian Morgan - married Cadoxton juxta Neath (St Catwg) 1837. Gwenllian's maiden name might be reflected in her eldest son Morgan?
At the time I only checked the Glam FHS transcribed entry. Next week will check for actual Parish Register entry.
regards
regards
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Hi,
I am such an idiot! I had seen that 'married' on the 1871 census and honestly I should have known better, but I decided!! that it was an enumerator's error! How stupid. So yes, this looks just like my guy and he seemingly had been married before and his wife died probably in childbirth.
He has to have been married between the 1861 census when he is at home and 1871/2 when he is with my family in the Rhondda. Good Lord that was soon. Going to check their 1st child's date of birth.
The Witnesses at their wedding were: Thomas Davies [ I have assumed this was her brother] and Jane Davies [could be a friend/cousin as apparently Thomas did not marry and died early in life].
I agree about the Gwenllian Morgan as a mother's surname, that looks very possible.
The Birth certificate that I hold for William shows:
18 July 1840 at Brynmig, Dylais Higher, Cadoxton | William | Boy | John Jones [father] | Gwenllian JONES formerly CURTIS | Farmer | The mark of Gwenllian Jones Mother Brynmig, Dylais Higher | 26 August 1840 | Evan Thomas Registrar |
My grateful thanks,
Jill
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Just read their Marriage Certificate more thoroughly. William Jones = Friswith [sic] Davies by LICENCE - before me David Powell Registrar
x The Mark of William Jones | Friswith signed.
Jill
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yattonharry,
checked the Parish marriage record of John Jones and Gwenllian Morgan on 15th may 1837 Cadoxton. Noted that the witnesses were William Curtis and Catherine Davies.
Found a Parish marriage of Catherine Curtis and David Davies 1 Feb 1833 Cadoxton - possible link?. In this instance the witnesses were Harriet and John Harries.
Can provide copies of both marriages if relevant
regards
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That is so very kind of you to check these for me.
I would be very pleased to have the copies of those marriages please?
Jill
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Just chatting to my husband about this problem. Do you think it possible that Morgan was the illegitimate child of Gwenllian Curtis and that John Jones married her soon after Morgan's birth? Morgan may have been the name of Morgan's father? No, that is incorrect - that Gwenllian Curtis had married a Morgan and then married John Jones?
Would it be possible to check Morgan's birth at all please?
I believe it was the IGI but I have a Gwenllian Curtis b/bpt 1805 and Catherine Curtis b/bpt 1813 daus of Hugh Curtis.
Thanks so much for what you have done for me so far. It is much appreciated.
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yattonharry,
if you send me your e.mail via private message will send images of both marriage records.
Re William Curtis, witness, the 1841 Census (HO107 1421 10/6 4) has
William Curtis, 60, Farmer
Alice Curtis, 72,
Watkin Jones, 35, Boatman
Address Pentreclwyda, Cadoxton, Neath Middle, all born Glamorgan.
Will check further for Morgan's birth and possible earlier marriage for Gwenllian.
regards
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I just wish to thank you very much hanes teulu for all your information, so kindly given.
I have now been able to research myself at Neath and Swansea and have the Birth Certificate of Mary as well as her Baptism. I have the position on a map of Bryrhug or rhig and of other adresses.
Also I have now accepted that there was an error on the PR regarding Gwenllian Curtis marriage to John Jones.
Just thank you.
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yatonbarry, as an xBarrian i wonder if you could help me, i noticed you know quite a bit about cadoxton. I was raised at number 9 brock street my family were Cradock (Creddy) and Katherine Price nee Rafferty. They were settled Gypsies that lived in Williams cottage.
I am trying to find out the history of our cottage and any info on my family, also any photos of the cottage and family.
Thank You
This is my class photo
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Sorry for delay, but I haven't seen you message until now. I am talking about Cadoxton Juxta Neath and not Cadoxton Juxta Barry.
I will ask my cousin about the picture though.
Jill
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Hi Jill
Just seen your post, just wondering is William Curtis and Catherine Davies (nee Curtis) related to John Jones and Gwenllian?
Regards
Helen
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This has revived a few memories!!
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I know I just totally forgot all about it what with other family commitments and all, its only been the last couple of days that I've started looking into the family tree again, so I do apologise to those for not responding a lot earlier.
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Hi Jill
Just seen your post, just wondering is William Curtis and Catherine Davies (nee Curtis) related to John Jones and Gwenllian?
Regards
Helen
Hello Helen, Yes that marriage of William Curtis to Catherine Davies has been noted and I believe that Catherine and Gwenllian are sisters. This is off top of my head but will check further. So sorry not to have got back before now, but at ths time I was in hospital and if your message came I didn't see it at all. Just been browsing and came across yours and hanes teulu's messages. Apologies.
Regards Jill