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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Cheshire => Topic started by: JohnJean on Sunday 25 July 10 05:41 BST (UK)
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Hello, I have found a James Harrison in my ancestry. He and his father Thomas were flatmen/watermen. James was born about 1817 in Great Budworth Cheshire. He married Mary Foster who was born about 1821 in Cheshire. They married in 1842. Does anyone have any information regarding my ancestor or his occupation. Thanks.
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Hello, :o
Nearly all of my ancestors were flatmen or watermen, all from Cheshire, mainly Witton, Great Budworth, Barnton and Weaverham and working on the salt-flats. A lot of the canal boats were pulled by horses. My father tells me of when they came to a tunnel, (not him, his grand-father,) , the horses were unhitched, and lead over the bridge to the other side. The men on the boat then had to lay on their backs and 'walk' the boats under the bridges and tunnels (because they were so low). When they got to the other side, the horse was re-harnessed and continued on it's way until another tunnel was reached when the whole process was repeated.
My computer's on a 'go slow' at the moment so I can't do much but this link will give you a bit of information about their lifestyle. If I come across anything else I'll pass it on.
www.canaljunction.com/canal/heritage.htm
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I have visited The Ellesmere Port Boat Museum a few years ago. Most interesting place, they have an archive. Check their website for details, as you may have to book for the archive.
HTH,
Megran.
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It may be worth mentioning that in this area there were 2 distinct systems of water transportation - the canals (Trent & Mersey through Middlewich, Northwich, Barnton, etc) and the River Weaver, leading down to the Mersey and Birkenhead / Liverpool. The 2 did meet at Anderton where that wonderful lift (now restored - see Google and Wikipedia) took boats between the 2 systems.
If your relatives were referred to as flatmen, then it's fairly certain that they worked on the river. If they were boatmen, it's more likely they worked on the canal - though I suspect that "boatman" might also refer to the river, as "boat" is a fairly generic term whereas "flat" is a specific type of river boat. I don't know if people moved back and forth much between the 2 systems.
Important local museums etc. are Weaver Hall Museum & Workhouse (formerly the Salt Museum) at Northwich; Anderton Lift; Ellesmere Port Boat Museum (or whatever it's now called!) and the Maritime Museum at Liverpool Albert Dock since that was where all the salt etc went to.
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Hi
If you live in the UK there are programmes on Sky,Waterworld & Locks& Quays & Narrow Boats.
Bound to be repeated. About the history of the Canels,sometimes who worked on them.They have shown Old Footage & Pictures.
I dont have any ancestors who lived & worked on the Canels but found the programmes very interesting.
Omega
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Many thanks for the information. I will follow up where I can. Sorry, I didn't mention it before but I am not in the U.K. I am in Australia. John
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Hiya John ..and welcome to Rootschat...just in case you don`t have the marriage it is on
www.cheshirebmd.org.uk
1842
James Harrison to Mary Foster at St Mary , Budworth Cheshire West 126/1/330
allan ;)
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Many thanks for the information. I will follow up where I can. Sorry, I didn't mention it before but I am not in the U.K. I am in Australia. John
Hi,
A good excuse for a visit to the UK!
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My husband's g.g.aunt's husband was a boatman somewhere around Stockport, but I don't know where. I guess it was probably the Peaks Canal that went from the peak district, through Marple to Stockport and Macclesfield. I guess they carried cotton to and from the mills.
Lizzie.
ps. Totally off topic, I have one of the (pair of) patio doors open and nearly died of fright whilst typing this as a blackbird flew in, banged it's wings on the unopened patio door, flew towards me and then, fortunately, must have felt the draught from the open window and flew out again. My heart's still beating faster than normal. :o
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Hi John,
You only quote the two Harrisons, so it's difficult to say exactly which line they are in, because i suppose you do know that there were many Harrisons that were Watermen/ Boatmen/ Flatmen working the Canals and Rivers of Cheshire.
Flats usually worked on the Canals, because they were [ initially], horse drawn, and a lot of Harrisons were on the Canal out of Barnton [ Gt Budworth Parish], to the Potteries, or to Runcorn, Ellesmere Port etc.
Certainly in the 1860's i have for example in the Register of Flats, ' Governor', a 130 ton Flat owned by William Harrison, and he Captained it.
'Polly' 100 tons Thomas Harrison Owner and Captain, 'Nelson'. - Robert/ William Harrison, 'Newton'. -Thomas/ Thomas, and 'Dempsey'' - Robert/ Robert Harrison, just to give you some idea that they were very active in the trade.
Two Harrisons are listed in the recent Book by Geoffrey Buchan, - - 'Barnton', Ralph. 1740-1823, and James' 1777-1863, his Son, and i am connected to them, although i have not gone into their origins, Geoffrey say's they were from Staffordshire.
The Book follows his previous one [ now out of print], 'Barnton a Portrait of Times Past', which was mainly, a collection of Old Photo's which had lots of Flats, Barges, etc, and some Flatmen.
His latest is more Historical [ lovely production], but also has lots of River/ Canal references and Photo's. The last time i spoke to him it was selling fast, and this 'Run' could well be sold out.
Cheers,
Curly. :)
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Many thanks once again. I know it has been a bit dificult tracking ancestors with a not uncommon surname. I have found census information on UK 1841 to 1911 good as also the Cheshire BMD listings. The last known listing of James Harrison was in the 1871 Census aboard the vessel "Polly". I am originally from England immigrated early in life to Australia and remiss not to find out more Family History years ago. I appreciate all your information. It does help.John.
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Hello again John,
Yes i know it is difficult at long range, but the people on this site are very helpful. I am myself still here in Sydney 44 years later, but can tell you that Technology has been a Fantastic help to this subject. The old way when i used to go back to Chester RO was no fun at all, and took forever.
Thomas Harrison was Married at Gt Budworth on the 2nd of February 1818 to a Sarah [ name not given in IGI], and James was Christened on the 1st of November 1818 at Birkenhead.
It was usual for the Boat people to take their Wives and young children with them, and there were Churches along the Routes that they used for Weddings and Christenings.
You found James at Northwich Mooring in 1871 on 'Polly', and out of interest, on my listings she is still registered in 1887, with a Thomas Harrison the Owner and Master. It is extremely doubtful that it would be the Thomas, James's Father [ i have a potential birth in 1796], rather his brother.
I am sure you know that with the male line moving around all the time, you have to concentrate on their wives [ making sure you know as much as you can], because as the children grow up and go to school, they stay home with them, and this is the only way to keep track of the Harrison line.
There is a James death for DecQ 1877 at Northwich aged 60 which could fit.
Cheers,
Curly. :)
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Hi John,
There's a James & Mary Harrison buried at St Helen's, Witton and there is a stone.............
James Harrison of Witton d.DEC 30th 1877 a60y, Betsy dota d.JUL 17th 1854 a16m. Mary wota d.MAY 6th 1884 a64y. Betty Burgess of Witton d.JUN 30th 1873 a85y.
any use?
odessa.
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hello john
i come from a long line of harrison boat people, as curly stated lots of them all over the country on census time.i cant find your james in my tree but then i still after following & tracing members for over 30 years still have large gaps iv even found cousions of my dads he didnt know he had if you let me know others in your tree around 1880 onwards i will see if i can make a connection
jeannette
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:o Wow. Thanks for that. Every time I check, another piece of interesting information comes in. I will get back to you folks again. I really appreciate this feedback. John.
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Hello again. I have checked my resource information about James and Mary Harrison and the details provided do match. Regarding the Harrison line, Jeannette, I found that James and Mary Harrison had three sons. They were Thomas (1842), William (1852) and Frederick (1856). Thomas is my direct line but he was not involved in later life on the boats. I am not sure about William at this point but I found that Frederick was still on board the vessel "Polly" in the 1871 census with his father James noted as Master and his mother Mary as Master's wife. My direct line comes through Thomas (1842) Witton, then Frederick William (1864) Northwich, and Thomas (1886) Weston Point Runcorn. Although there would be many people from the ancestry line within Cheshire, my origins then go to the other 3 corners of family in Lancashire. Harrison-Hampson and Bramhall-Williamson. I would be interested to learn of any connections. Thanks John
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Flats usually worked on the Canals, because they were [ initially], horse drawn... in the 1860's I have for example in the Register of Flats, ' Governor', a 130 ton Flat ...
While I wouldn't want to say that everybody used the same terminology, "flat" normally means a vessel on the river - specifically, the Weaver and Mersey round this area of Cheshire. The canals round Northwich are all narrow canals, which means all their locks are just a couple of inches over 7 foot wide. Narrow-boats are no more than 7 foot wide (plus or minus an inch or two - usually minus, these days). Capacity varies but the National Waterways Museum refers to a narrow-boat named "Ferret" now at Ellesmere Port museum, built by WJ Yarwoods of Northwich in 1926, with a cargo capacity of 30 tons
See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narrowboat and http://nwm.org.uk/Ferret.html
Vessels rated at 90t (like Polly in the 1871) will be the bigger flats and will be on the river. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mersey_Flat which quotes a width of 14 feet 9 inches to 17 feet.
It's clear then that what is usually called a flat couldn't navigate the Trent & Mersey from Northwich to the Potteries, etc. While a narrow boat off the canals could go onto the river system (Weaver then Mersey), they're not ideal, especially when getting out into open water. I saw a television program some time ago showing someone taking a narrow-boat from the Leeds & Liverpool canal out onto the Mersey and into the Albert Dock - it was made clear that this was a very tricky thing to do as it would be easy to get rolled over. (There's now a new link along the Liverpool waterfront to avoid this tricky passage). The only physical connection in the Northwich area is the Anderton boat lift and I'm not sure a Weaver flat would fit into it.
(Just to confuse matters, some of the earlier canals were built to take boats of width more like 14ft - indeed one could see 2 narrow-boats lashed side by side working such canals)
It's perfectly possible that someone started their career on the flats on the Weaver, moved onto the narrow boats on the canals but always called themselves a flatman, but generally my instinct would be that flats and flatmen worked the Weaver, Mersey and any other connected rivers, not canals.
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I have a marriage in St Michael and All Angels Church Middlewich Cheshire
Maybe they are yours??
September 1st 1862
William Bayley 21 Bachelor a Salt Boiler Newton Father was James Bailey a Boatman
to
Eliza Harrison 18 Spinster Newton Father was Thomas Harrison a Flatman
Witnesses were John Harrison and Elizabeth Stockton
The marriage was by
Good hunting!!!
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Thank you for the information. I have not found the marriage referred to but if James Harrison had a brother, a possibility mentioned by Curly in a recent post, there might well be another distant ancestral relation. I will keep checking. Thanks. John.
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Just how wonderful!
My family were Canal Boatmen from the beginning of the canals and they have proved a huge source of enjoyment and frustration whilst researching them. I seem to have' lived ' the Trent and Mersey Canal and the Staffs and Worcester , not to mention the Midland canals for years and to be honest am no nearer solving all the family connections than when i started out over 25 years ago!!!
So, just good hunting and if i can help you at all please ask.
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Thank you very much for the offer. If I find any more clues in my investigations I will let you know. Thanks. John.
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Hello again I have been recently investigating mainly Thomas Harrison father of James Harrison but it all gets very vague pre 1841. I received a reply from Odessa on 28 July regarding a grave site stone at St. Helen's Witton for James Harrison, Mary Harrison, Betsy and Betty Burgess. James and Mary are accounted for and I am presuming Betsy was a daughter that passed away early. Betty Burgess remains a little mystery however. Mary's parents were Samuel and Betty Foster/Forster so it might be that she remarried?? but there is no definite clue on the ancestry websites. Can anybody suggest where the next avenue could be. Additionally, I would like to know if anybody can direct me to someone or somewhere I can obtain a reasonably priced photograph/s of the grave/s stone/s to enable it/them to be sent to me in Australia. Thanks. John.
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If the graves are in Witton Cemetry I would be able to go and photo them for you and then if you have email I could send them.
Just point me in the right direction
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To canal woman, That is so very kind of you. I do feel guilty not offering something though. I can only tell you that the stone/s have been listed as one site at St. Helen's Witton: James Harrison died Dec 30 1877 age 60:Mary Harrison died May 6 1884 age 64: Betsy daughter died July 17 1854 age 16 months:Betty Burgess died June 30 1878 age 85. Unfortunately, I don't know in what area of the graveyard they are located. If that is not enough I will try to investigate further.I do have an email address jha20912@bigpond.net.au Thank you so much if it is possible. John
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Hi.
Witton is a big Cemetry, but easy enough to walk round,, and I will enjoy the challenge!!!!
I go to Witton Church, have been for many years. It is the Parish Church of Northwich.
Just bear with me and I will get back to you .........................everything is possible in family History , it just takes time!!!!
Sallie
Ps.. never feel guilty....we just help each other if we can!
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JohnJean/Sallie,
The M.I. I quoted for the Harrison stone was for a grave from the churchyard, not the cemetery (taken from the volume of same, held at Northwich Library) - might narrow things down for you. Hopefully it will be one of the stones still upright!
odessa.
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james harrison bapt 27th april 1817 great budworth parents listed as jno harrison and betty.
hope this helps?
regards
alli
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all children baptised lower whitley cheshire to parents james harrison and mary -
thomas harrison bapt 29th jan 1843
william samuel harrison bapt 5th may 1850
betsey harrison bapt 10th april 1853
frederick harrison bapt 23rd sept 1855
regards
alli
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Thanks Odessa.
Narrows search somewhat,
as you say just hope the stone is still standing upright.........we will see!!
Sallie
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Thank you for that Odessa. Thank you for the additional information to alli. Thank you again Sallie. I will keep my fingers crossed. John.
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Success
Big standing stone. [ but grave Stones are in a shocking state....]
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Hello. Sorry to be a nuisance but I have another small family mystery related to boatmen. In Witton area Thomas Harrison-occupation Flatman, his son James Harrison-occupation Flatman/Waterman. His son Thomas Harrison noted in 1891 residence in Witton with family occupation Rope/Twine manufacturer. However in 1901 Thomas Harrison, wife Mary Eliza and children Lauretta, Jessie and Robert residence in Salford (Manchester Ship Canal?)-occupation waterman Barge. Is this a specific term or general for the area? P.S. It seems he eventually returned to Northwich as there is a probable death Cheshire BMD 1910! Thanks. John.
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Hi John.
Cannot be of great help as the definition of waterman,, boatman,, flat man can get totally confusing.
from my experience and thats not a lot.... I have Canal Boatmen in my family.They lived and worked on canal barges and they used the canal system as their highway.
In the Northwich area we have the River Weaver. and the men that used that river had boats that were called River flats......design I expect ... the men that used those boats on the River Weaver were called Weaver flat-men. they didn't usually go on the canal and the canal men didn't usually go on the river...and until the Anderton Boat lift there was no connection between the two unless you went to the sea. [ think I am right in saying this?][ even after the connection the men didn;t redefine their names...canal was canal and flat was flat ]
The Manchester Ship canal was built in the 1800's to transport ships from the Mersey River to the centre of Manchester. it is like a wide Canal that first of all runs alongside the Mersey and then makes it own way to the centre of Manchester.
The ships that used it were much bigger than canal barges.[ In fact in later years huge Ocean going ships used it ... but thats another story]
surfice to say that your Thomas might well have used the Manchester Ship canal and that when asked what his occupation was on Census night he could have said that he was a Waterman [ because he worked the water system ] and that he was in charge of a Barge.....
I don't think there is any underlying secrets about what he was or did..................he was a man that worked on the waterways of Cheshire/Lancashire and he was termed as a waterman or a flatman ...what he doesn't appear to be is a Canal Boatman.
Maybe this is some help ????
Sallie
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The information is good and appreciated. It does help. Thank you kindly, Sallie. John.
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hi. glad to find someone looking at canal boatmen. looking into the twiggs .henry twigg worked on the cheshire canals 1855 married to mary ann hulme.not to be mixed up with twiggs from staffs,though there may be a relation somewhere .?
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Thank you for your interest.
I am afraid I haven't done much research over the past few months tending to other matters. As you may see from this subject, many people, and especially canal woman, have been a great help. There is still some confusion as to whether my ancestors were canal or river boatmen, possibly the latter from my last investigation and assistance from canal woman.
I will be trying to start again on the matter soon. So far I haven't come across any Twigg but if I do, I will let you know.
JohnJean
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This is very interesting stuff.
I think it was Curly who mentioned a list of 'flats' -does anyone have a reference to this list please?
Thanks Ian
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Additionally, I would like to know if anybody can direct me to someone or somewhere I can obtain a reasonably priced photograph/s of the grave/s stone/s to enable it/them to be sent to me in Australia.
Hi John -
Have you checked out http://www.gravestonephotos.com/? The website contains a collection of photographs of tombstones from across the world (though the majority are in the UK). Just search under a surname and request a free image of the monument for the relevant person.
The photographs are taken by volunteers and if the cemetery you want has not yet been covered, you can leave a request. New volunteers are more than welcome!
Janet
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Thank you very much for that. I am just about to try for more family history information mainly Cheshire and Lancashire. I am not sure of some of the specific cemeteries in the towns/cities but I will certainly follow up to look at that site.
John