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General => The Common Room => Topic started by: deb usa on Thursday 29 July 10 17:46 BST (UK)
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Hi
firstly to Mods ... If I have posted in an inappropriate place could you please move this thread..thanks Deb :)
I recently acquired This book:
WESLEY'S HYMNS
A Collection of Hymns, For the use of the people called Methodists.
By the Rev. John Wesley, A.M.
Sometimes Fellow of the Lincoln College, Oxford
London:
Published by J Mason
at the Wesleyan conference Office
14 City Road
and sold at 66 Paternoster Road Row
(no date of Publication)
The Preface is written by John Wesley
London, Oct 20, 1779
This is a miniature book ...black leather bound, hardcover, print on cover in gold.
height = 3 1/4 inches
width = 2 inches
depth = 1 1/4 inches
The mystery:
1. How old do you think the book may be? .... I have googled and think that the publisher J Mason may have died in 1864.
2: The front and back inside cover has this written on it in what looks like black fountain pen
( handwriting a little hard to read)
Front Cover
Miss Ada Kyle
Sussex
(what looks like) Cormne
N B ...or V B
underneath
Miss Ida
Sussex
back cover
Miss Ida Kyle ( at first it looked like Style :-\)
Sussex
Cornne.... possibly Corwne
VaC
NB
1901 or 7 and 1910
Does anyone know where in Sussex Ida may have lived ..is there such a place?
thanks everyone
deb :)
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I have seen reference to Rev John Mason when googling John Wesley's book
I think I have found J Mason ...the publisher of my book :D
1851
14 CITY RD ( where book was published)
St Luke
JOHN MASON head mar 69, Wesleyan Minister at the City Road Chapel, b Warwick, Birmingham
Ann wife 66 b Staffordshire
Mary S dau 29, unm, b Warwick, Coventry
So can I assume my book is pretty old ?? :)
deb
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John Wesley was the founder of Methodism and the collection of hymns, many written by his brother Charles were the original hymnbook of the Methodist church. The original book was published in 1780, but it was re issued in other forms over the years including a supplement by 1886.
This link shows many articles held by North Lincolnshire relating to Methodist history and you will see refernce to J Mason as publisher. http://www.northlincs.gov.uk/NR/rdonlyres/18D7E584-C013-4797-9937-A31A2580F1CC/5188/WesleyCollection2.pdf
Epworth Old rectory in Lincolnshire was the Wesley's home which is still open to the public. http://www.epwortholdrectory.org.uk/
The Wesley Historical society exists and may also be of interest to you. http://www.wesleyhistoricalsociety.org.uk/
The main Methodist archive is at the John Rylands Library, part of the University of Manchester.http://www.library.manchester.ac.uk/specialcollections/collections/methodist/
Methodists have a saying that Methodism was 'born in song' and many individuals had their own hymn books as hymn singing was and is so important to them - they dont just sing them on a sunday- they read the words and use the words to help in prayers. No doubt the book you have was the personal hymn book of your Miss Ada or Ida Kyle. If the dates were clearer perhaps you could search for her in the 1901 census? Just a few thoughts. Best Wishes.
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Hi candleflame
Thanks for taking the time to read this.
I have been trying to find a time-line for the publisher ... I believe Rev. John Mason died circa 1863 because of a book published by a Rev. Prest. after the passing of rev. JohnMason, Wesleyan Minister.
The miniature book is so beautiful ...I have never seen such a small book in my life.
Miss Ida/Ada is a complete mystery ...I have looked at the censuses but there is nothing popping out. The name of the town/parish in Sussex also seems elusive. Maybe I should post on the Sussex board.
The thought that I am holding a book that may be 150 years old and has passed through many hands makes me feel very honoured.
I will contact the links you have supplied
Thank you so much
deb :)
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In my attempt to find out how old the book is ... I have found another name:
Printed by: R NEEDHAM, Paternoster Row.
So if John Mason dies circa 1863 I know the book published before that. If I can find R Needham and/or his death that may give me another date.
When looking on the 1881 for Paternoster Row ..I find that it is in St Gregory, London.
City Rd, where John Mason, publisher, lived is St Luke.
deb
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Hi Deb,
So can I assume my book is pretty old ??
I think that the only thing you can safely assume is that if Ms. Kyle owned it in the first decade of the 1900s, then it is at least 100-110 yrs old. And that is indeed pretty old.
It could be much older, but you would have to check the publishing history, or with an old book expert, to get a definitive answer. Books like this were often reprinted over many years without a great deal of change. I know that university libraries have very good resources for tracking publishing histories of specific books, but it takes a great deal of work. I have a six volume set of Curiosities of Literature by Isaac D'Israeli (father of PM Benjamin) printed in 1834 that I researched in this way, as well as an early edition of Vanity Fair.
Nick
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Hi Deb,
So can I assume my book is pretty old ??
I think that the only thing you can safely assume is that if Ms. Kyle owned it in the first decade of the 1900s, then it is at least 100-110 yrs old. And that is indeed pretty old.
I have a six volume set of Curiosities of Literature by Isaac D'Israeli (father of PM Benjamin) printed in 1834 that I researched in this way, as well as an early edition of Vanity Fair.
Thanks for this Nick :)
re your volumes: HOW FAB!!
wobbly screen arrghh
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If it were possible for you to photograph the writing in the book and post it here, someone from Sussex - or elsewhere- may be able to transcribe the writing for you.
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I was thinking the same thing, Candleflame ... let me see what I can do.
thanks
deb :)
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How close are you to New Jersey? The Drew University Library has a United Methodist Archives library, with a large collection. Possibly you could try their "Ask a Librarian" for some insight into your book. I did find from their site that R. Needham was around as early as 1844 (brief search), but as I stated before, the period of when the publisher or printer was alive can't be used as absolute evidence for when a book was published. The church would have owned the copyright and could have had the galleys available for republishing long after both were dead.
Nick
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Trying to attach photo...and failed miserably ...will try again ..LOL
Nick ..NJ is about 12-13 hours drive from me ... I think I will have to search NC to see if there are any rare book collector people here ...
will try to post photo again
Thanks
deb :)
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trying again ...
fingers crossed
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back cover
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Very cool, and quite old I would guess. Unless it is a repair, it appears that the signatures (gathering of pages) were hand-sewn. Color of the paper, and general condition also implies age. These are things that old book experts can look at to pinpoint the age.
More research shows that Needham did quite a bit of publishing for the Wesleyan Methodists between ca 1830, and the selling of the printing operation ca 1870s.
If you do a search on WorldCat for the Title page title (as opposed to cover title "Wesley's Hymns") you will get quite a few hits, as well as names of libraries with holdings. Might even find one near you in NC.
Nick
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OK, just did the WorldCat search myself and it could be as early as 1837-40, but since their 1840 is 710 pages long
and doesn't seem to include words "with Supplement", I 'd guess it might be somewhat later.
Says it is 75 mm which is about the size you quote.
OCLC Number: 52551788
Notes: Some hymns by Charles Wesley. Without music. Includes indexes. Without portrait. "A supplement to the Collection of Hymns": p. [521]-688.
Description: 710 p. ; 75 mm.
Responsibility: by the Rev. John Wesley, A.M., late fellow of Lincoln College, Oxford ; with a supplement.
Looks like this is it.
Nick
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Oooooo Nick ...thanks for all you help ... I have never bought a Miniature book before ...so I am at a loss ...
this book has 800 pages
this shows the size using a toothpick ;D
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Could be Ida May Kyle who lived in Sussex, Kings, New Brunswick, Canada. Born 14 April 1874.
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There is a Sussex Corner nr Sussex NB
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I later years Ida May Kyle was a lodging house keeper in Haverhill City, Essex, Massachusetts (US census 1920 and 1930)
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Could be Ida May Kyle who lived in Sussex, Kings, New Brunswick, Canada. Born 14 April 1874.
In 1881 Canadian census Kyle family are listed as Reformed Church (not Methodist).
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Could be Ida May Kyle who lived in Sussex, Kings, New Brunswick, Canada. Born 14 April 1874.
In 1881 Canadian census Kyle family are listed as Reformed Church (not Methodist).
and in 1901 they are still in Sussex.
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I looked at the 1901, where this Ida is still at home. They are an Irish family and I assumed the RC to be Roman Catholic. This would really throw a clincher in the works.
Nick
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I assumed the RC to be Roman Catholic
I think that 1901 entry says "REChurch". Looking up and down the page, catholics seem to be marked as RCatholick.
The earlier censuses, as Aghadowey says, show the family as Reform Church which could be a Wesleyan group.
I am trying to find more about the early history of Reform(ed) churches in Kings NB but without much success so far.
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I looked at the 1901, where this Ida is still at home. They are an Irish family and I assumed the RC to be Roman Catholic. This would really throw a clincher in the works.
Nick
The Kyle family are of Irish descent but Ida's parents and siblings are all born in New Brunswick.
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Good news- here's a Methodist connection!
Kings County Record (Sussex), 30 Aug.1895 "m. At the Methodist parsonage, Elgin (Albert Co.) Monday, Aug., 19th, by Rev. J.B. Young, William J. BUSTIN / Elizabeth KYLE, both of Mechanic."
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Ida May Kyle's parents were Samuel Patrick Kyle and Elizabeth Jane Ritchie.
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Miss Ada Kyle
Sussex
(what looks like) Cormne
N B ...or V B
underneath
Miss Ida
Sussex
back cover
Miss Ida Kyle ( at first it looked like Style :-\)
Sussex
Cornne.... possibly CorwneVaC
NB
1901 or 7 and 1910
Hi Deb,
I think the word is not Cornne/Corwne
I think it is born (i.e. not a place-name at all)
Could it be born NB (New Brunswick) ?
Jennifer
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Just adding a link to a closely associated thread running here http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,471454.msg3313560.html#msg3313560
Jennifer
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Thanks everyone .....Great searching!!!
I so appreciate it and love the fact that Miss Ida has been found :D
I will think of her everytime I see/hold the book ;D
deb
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Hi Shaun..Ida May Kyle was from Sussex Corner, NB and I believe she moved to Haverhill, Mass because her brother Charles William Evans Kyle lived there in July 1940. Could you tell me where you found her listed in the 1920 Census..I typed in her name but it said there was no record of her..she is a great great aunt..Thank You.
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I later years Ida May Kyle was a lodging house keeper in Haverhill City, Essex, Massachusetts (US census 1920 and 1930)
Both records are in LDS database-
https://www.familysearch.org/#form=advanced-records
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I also have a very tiny hymn book!
Mine was purchased in a charity shop some years ago and is entitled Hymns Ancient & Modern and measures just 5.4 x 4.4 cms!! :o
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Thank You!!
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2: The front and back inside cover has this written on it in what looks like black fountain pen
( handwriting a little hard to read)
Front Cover
Miss Ada Kyle
Sussex
(what looks like) Cormne
N B ...or V B
underneath
Miss Ida
Sussex
back cover
Miss Ida Kyle ( at first it looked like Style :-\)
Sussex
Cornne.... possibly Corwne
VaC
NB
1901 or 7 and 1910
Does anyone know where in Sussex Ida may have lived ..is there such a place?
thanks everyone
deb :)
[/quote]
Hi Deb,
Ida May Kyle was born in Sussex, Kings, New Brunswick, Canada April 14, 1874, to Samuel Patrick Kyle and Elizabeth Jane Ritchie. I am a descendant of Samuel's brother John Albert Kyle. I am in touch is a cousin who is a descendant of Samuel and we are curious if you still have this hymn book in your possession.
Thank you for your time
You can reach me by email
email address removed
Renee Boudreau
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Now that you've posted on this topic Deb will hopefully soon see your message but we aren't allowed to post email addresses (it is explained in the Help pages under Posting Guidelines). Just click 'modify' on your post, remove your email and then click on 'save'
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:( I am not seeing 'Modify' as an option on my post?
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The modify options only lasts for 24 hours after your post (you were online before that but didn't make any changes) so you now have to click on 'report to moderator' to get it changed for you.
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Hi Renee
I've removed your email address in accordance with Rootschat policies to pevent spam and other internet abuses.
Please use the personal message system to exchange this information.
Dawn
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Hi everyone
Renee and I are in touch.
This was such a wonderful surprise ..... Ida Kyle's book is going back to where it belongs ... her family! :)
deb