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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Topic started by: sapphireblue67 on Saturday 31 July 10 12:44 BST (UK)

Title: Hardy..an australian enigma
Post by: sapphireblue67 on Saturday 31 July 10 12:44 BST (UK)
 ???  Hi...I have an English Relative that is causing all researchers into his history stop at him..NO ONE has been able to find out WHERE or what his DOB exactly is

His name is Richard Hardy...he married Suvina (Sabina) Hill in 1844 in Dungog NSW.  They had a very large family

No one knows HOW he got to Australia, there is a record of a Convict to Australia but if we go on his headstone and family stories...this man died just 3 days off his 117th Birthday.  He was 116 at time of death 1.9.1913....putting his dob at 4.9.1797
HOW do I go finding this as the FREE BDM uk do not go back that far...one other story was he was actually 112 at time of death and  later on his death certificate his daughter Ada Jane marked it as 102. 

Very confusing.

I hope this is in the right place for posting as I am new to this site and relatively new to family history.  I am basically on my own as all the "keepers"of our history are all now passed on

Thanks in Advance

Sapphire
Title: Re: Hardy..an australian enigma
Post by: cath151 on Saturday 31 July 10 13:20 BST (UK)
Hi Sapphire,
Welcome to Rootschat.
I expect you may have this information already but have you looked on Familysearch.org?
There are records for Richards marriage, wife and children and possible father , submitted by three people with their addresses.
As the records are submitted rather than extracted they are not really reliable as to details as they rely on Submitters details, not necessarily actual records.
There are about six records in the criminal registers before 1844 with two Richard Hardy s being transported.
Richard Hardy age 31 born c 1809, trial 25 May 1840 at Lancaster, transported 7 years.
Richard Hardy no dob  trial Nov 1832 Old Bailey, Middlesex. Transported 7 years.

Hopefully someone may come up with hard evidence,
Best wishes
 Cathy :)
Title: Re: Hardy..an australian enigma
Post by: AMBLY on Saturday 31 July 10 13:47 BST (UK)
Hi



The following website ages him as b abt 1818 London, died 1913 Nabiac NSW
http://users.tpg.com.au/bbolitho/RichardHardy/Index.htm

The NSW Death Index (1913 in Stroud district) , gives his father as "James"

Do  you mean Ada (the youngest child of many)  was the informant for the death certificate and stated his age 102? Or did the cert say he was 112 and she has made a note later to say he was actually 102?

The age on the headstone - does very clearly state he was 116?
Edit - added:  Answer: Yes it does  ;D
http://austcemindex.com/inscription.php?id=5250805

Does his death cert. say how long he had been in Australia?

Cheers
AMBLY
Title: Re: Hardy..an australian enigma
Post by: sapphireblue67 on Saturday 31 July 10 14:30 BST (UK)
the listing on the bblithe website is one lead that was dismissed with research later by another and as yet we haven't seen his death certificate...yes ada was the one who amended it to 112 then later 102 so even the daughter wasn't sure...apparently someone had his birth certificate but wouldn't let anyone see it...not sure why but now no one knows what has happened to it...maybe poor richard didn't know himself...LOL  I have actually got  a copy of his marriage certificate but not of his death certificate so maybe I will have to get a copy of it and start back from that.  I also have got the entire book that was researched from him to earlier time but they also couldn't shed any more light on it for me
Title: Re: Hardy..an australian enigma
Post by: Valda on Saturday 31 July 10 14:53 BST (UK)
Hi

I might have thought considering his advanced years, whatever quite they were, the local newspaper would have run an obituary on him as he had lived such a long life and if so there would be some reference to his origins in it?


Regards

Valda
Title: Re: Hardy..an australian enigma
Post by: Annette7 on Saturday 31 July 10 23:04 BST (UK)
There is a somewhat detailed tree on Ancestry showing that is name was Richard Burcham Hardy b.14/12/1817, bp.5/4/1818 City of London.   Having checked on IGI this was at St. James Garlickhithe, London - son of James and Mary.   Another son Henry Stuart Hardy b.12/5/1814, bp.29/5/1814 same place.

Marriage records show a James Hardy married Mary Palmer 20/2/1812 St. James Garlickhithe, London.

He was transported on the Charles Kerr 6/6/1837 having been convicted on 19/9/1836 Old Bailey, London.   There's a quite lengthy note attached - when he arrived in Australia he and 3 other convicts (all named) were assigned to a W. E. Cormack of Williams River, Dungog.   Various physical details are given.

Two separate people spoke up for him at his trial - he lived in the Bethnal Green area of London.   One person was a weaver from Bethnal Green, the other was his father's employer who offered Richard a job if he was able to serve a custodial sentence rather than transportation.   His fathers employer being a James Watson, Cabinet Maker and Timber Merchant of Bethnal Green Road.   Richard Hardy at his trial said to be a cabinet maker for 3 1/2 yrs.

How accurate this is I can't say but reading through it all it does seems quite thorough.     I wouldn't have thought he'd have been much older (regardless of the gravestone) because his youngest Ada was born 1871!!!    If he'd been born c.1797 he'd have been 73/74 when she was conceived.   I doubt that very much.   There's also a picture of him and his wife although it's not dated.

Certainly, the arrival in Australia 1837 and his assignment to someone in Dungog all fits.

Annette

Title: Re: Hardy..an australian enigma
Post by: sapphireblue67 on Sunday 01 August 10 01:35 BST (UK)
I all...As I said I am relatively new to this research part as well so to have other ppl able to come up with so much whereas I felt it was a very frustrating brickwall is to say the least...STUNNING...thankyou so much I would love to see this picture of Richard Hardy and his wife as there is a picture somewhere of him and his great grandson around somewhere and they match then yes it definately is him and this puzzle over here can be put to rest.

How and where have you all been able to find such info...I have searched the net for weeks trying to work it all out with many a headache.  I would love any help or I should say tips to help me keep going in this endeavour.
This site you are able to get this info I would love to see as well and I will print it off and yes as you said Annette it does all fit
Yes Valda I have his obituary details and they do say advanced yrs of 116yrs as well
Thanks once again you ppl are so wonderful
Sapphire
Title: Re: Hardy..an australian enigma
Post by: Annette7 on Sunday 01 August 10 02:46 BST (UK)
Hi again

I found the information on a public tree on Ancestry.com.   The tree is named Fenning/McDonald Family Tree (there are some others for him but this was far more exact) with photo and detailed story.   The only strange thing was that the entry was just Richard Hardy with birth date 1818 Yorkshire - however, when I brought it up it was as Richard Burcham Hardy with full 1818 date shown as London.
I guess whoever put the tree on has found out more since initial entry and when they've amended it something hasn't quite followed through amending original name/birthplace.

Very late here so must go to bed now.

Annette
Title: Re: Hardy..an australian enigma
Post by: SuzM on Saturday 14 August 10 03:57 BST (UK)
Hi Everyone

I have some information on Richard Burcham Hardy.

I have a copy of his Baptism Record. It is clearly written that he was born on the 14 Dec 1817 to parents James and Mary Hardy. He was Baptized on the 5 Apr 1818 at St James Garlickhithe, City of London.

Hope this helps.

Suz
Title: Re: Hardy..an australian enigma
Post by: davidmillikenmichel on Saturday 01 October 16 13:03 BST (UK)
Further to the comment by saphireblue67 dated Saturday 31 July 10 (2010?) regarding ancestor Richard Hardy, Richard Burcham Hardy (1817-1913) is my maternal great-great-great uncle so you and I are related. I do not have information on Richard's date of birth, his migration to Australia or indeed any pertinent details other than his son John's marriage to my great grandmother Gertrude Sarah Everingham, details follow. It would be fairly safe to say Richard's gravestone at Failford NSW Australia is incorrect with an age of 116 years. We would accept the post by Suz with Richard's birth at 14 December 1817 making his age 96, 20 years exaggeration that only the deceased family would know. My mother at 10 years of age accompanied Richard's funeral procession where hundreds of people in the district turned out and she often spoke of her great-great uncle living to 116 years. There are descendants of Richard Hardy here in Australia but they are proving hard to track down and I suspect most if not all have little information on the history of the Hardy family in the UK. Anyway, I pick up the story as outlined below where I am attempting to connect Richard as a nephew of Sir Thomas Masterman Hardy, captain of HMS Victory during the battle of Trafalgar on 21 October 1805.

In regard to 18th & 19th English and Australian family history, I am endeavouring to ascertain the family (hopefully blood) link between two Hardy families. First, we have Sir Thomas Masterman Hardy (1769-1839) well-documented as a British naval admiral who captained Admiral Nelson's flagship the 100-gun Victory during the Battle of Trafalgar on 21 October 1805. Second, we have what is believed to be his nephew Richard Burcham Hardy (1817-1913) born in London and died in Nabiac NSW Australia. Richard is my three-greats uncle and his son John Joseph Hardy (1853-1935) married my great grandmother Gertrude Sarah Everingham (1855-1941) the great granddaughter of First Fleeter Matthew James Everingham (1769-1817) who arrived in Sydney Cove from England on 26 January 1788 aboard the convict ship Scarborough. According to our family's understanding and as published in newspapers, namely: Northern Champion (NSW Australia) Newspaper 13 August 1913 and Manning & District Times (NSW Australia) Wednesday 10 September 1913, Richard Burcham Hardy was stated as a nephew to Thomas Hardy; and, Richard's father, James Hardy, was the ship's carpenter also aboard the Victory during the Battle of Trafalgar. Now, whilst it seems to be quite clear that the two Hardy men, Thomas and Richard, lived according to numerous records, the question is: "Are Thomas Masterman Hardy and Richard Burcham Hardy related, as uncle and nephew respectively?" Richard's father, James Hardy, may be either a brother or cousin to Thomas Hardy and it is possible they are related by marriage, not blood, or not related at all. I am hoping there is some record in existence that discusses the relationship between the two Hardy men.

davidmillikenmichel, Sydney, Australia, 1 October 2016
Title: Re: Hardy..an australian enigma
Post by: sapphireblue67 on Friday 07 October 16 03:07 BST (UK)
Hi...what can I say...a relative,  I have found a few related down from Richard Hardy...do you want to go to PM in here and catch up
Sue
Title: Re: Hardy..an australian enigma
Post by: sallyyorks on Friday 07 October 16 06:18 BST (UK)

...There are about six records in the criminal registers before 1844 with two Richard Hardy s being transported.
Richard Hardy age 31 born c 1809, trial 25 May 1840 at Lancaster, transported 7 years.
Richard Hardy no dob  trial Nov 1832 Old Bailey, Middlesex. Transported 7 years.


Hopefully someone may come up with hard evidence,
Best wishes
 Cathy :)

At least two Richard Hardy's were sentenced to transportation at the Old Bailey (London) in the 1830's.

This info is from the Old Bailey Online website
https://www.oldbaileyonline.org/

1.
RICHARD HARDY, Theft > simple larceny, 29th November 1832.
Reference Number: t18321129-144
Offence: Theft > simple larceny
Verdict: Guilty
Punishment: Transportation
145. RICHARD HARDY was indicted for stealing, on the 27th of October , 1 coat, value 1l. , the goods of William Haggatt .
WILLIAM HAGGATT . I live in Prince's-street, Wapping, and am a coal-merchant . On the 27th of October, between two and three o'clock, I was in George-yard, Whitechapel ; I had some coals to deliver there - I left my coat in the head of my waggon; I saw the prisoner running away with it - I pursued, but he got out of sight- I informed a Police-officer, and saw him in custody on the 5th of November; I know he is the person.
Prisoner. Q. What do you know me by? A. By seeing you many times before in Whitechapel and Georgeyard.
ISABELLA LUCK . I am the daughter of John Harris - we live in Bell-lane. On the 27th of October I was at the top of George-yard, and saw a boy take the coat out of the head of the waggon, and give it to the prisoner, who put it under his arm, and ran down George-yard - he got away; I knew him by sight before.
Prisoner. Q. What do you know me by? A. I have seen you in George-yard and Wentworth-street, in a black coat, grey trousers, and a cap.
JOHN GREEN (Police-constable H 91.) I received information, and took the prisoner, from Haggatt's description, in George-yard; I had been in search of him for a week - he strictly denied it - he said a small boy took it; I said,"Yes, a small boy took it, gave it to you, and you run away with it;" the Magistrate thought there was not sufficient evidence to commit the other boy.
Prisoner's Defence. I was standing outside the door on the 4th of November, and the officer took me - I said,"I know nothing about the coat."
JOHN GREEN . He said he understood a small boy took it from the waggon - I had seen the prisoner in a black coat, grey trousers, and a cap, as the little girl has described; but I afterwards saw another boy with the prisoner's coat on, and the prisoner had a flannel jacket.
GUILTY . Aged 20. - Transported for Seven Years .


2.
RICHARD HARDY, Theft > simple larceny, 19th September 1836.
Offence: Theft > simple larceny
Verdict: Guilty > no_subcategory
Punishment: Transportation
2134. RICHARD HARDY was indicted for stealing, on the 5th of September, 5lbs. of bacon, value 3s., the goods of Benjamin Muggeridge.
GEORGE KEMP . I am a policeman. On the 5th of September I was on duty in Old-street-road, and saw the prisoner, in company with two other persons, loitering about several shops—they came to the prosecutor's—I saw them pass the shop several times—I saw the prisoner stand by the side of the shop—his two companions each took a piece of bacon—I followed, and secured the three in my arms—the prisoner had the two pieces of bacon under his coat—the others two got away—I kept the prisoner and the bacon.
BENJAMIN MUGGERIDGE . I am a cheesemonger. This bacon was in my shop, and taken from the window.
Prisoner' Defence. I left home on Monday afternoon to go to the fair with six boys—we staid there till dark, and they brought me home down Old-street, and took down six pair of trowsers, and then went on to this bacon-shop, and two of them took two pieces of bacon, which they gave me to carry.
(Thomas Harper, a weaver, of Violet-street, Bethnal-green, gave the prisoner a good character.)
GUILTY .*Aged 17.— Transported for Seven Years.



Below info from
convictrecordsau website
http://www.convictrecords.com.au/
(There are 73 convicts transported with the surname Hardy on the site)

These are probably the two Richard's sentenced above at the Old Bailey
Richard Hardy, one of 216 convicts transported on the Lotus, 20 December 1832
Richard Hardy, one of 250 convicts transported on the Charles Kerr, 06 June 1837

Title: Re: Hardy..an australian enigma
Post by: davidmillikenmichel on Friday 07 October 16 11:06 BST (UK)
Hi Sue - saphireblue67

Yes keen to chat and compare notes on Richard Burcham Hardy. Finding more bits and pieces.

davidmillikenmichel

Friday 7 October 2016 9:06pm
Title: Re: Hardy..an australian enigma
Post by: sallyyorks on Friday 07 October 16 19:22 BST (UK)
There is a somewhat detailed tree on Ancestry showing that is name was Richard Burcham Hardy b.14/12/1817, bp.5/4/1818 City of London.   Having checked on IGI this was at St. James Garlickhithe, London - son of James and Mary.   Another son Henry Stuart Hardy b.12/5/1814, bp.29/5/1814 same place.

Marriage records show a James Hardy married Mary Palmer 20/2/1812 St. James Garlickhithe, London.

He was transported on the Charles Kerr 6/6/1837 having been convicted on 19/9/1836 Old Bailey, London.   There's a quite lengthy note attached - when he arrived in Australia he and 3 other convicts (all named) were assigned to a W. E. Cormack of Williams River, Dungog.   Various physical details are given.

Two separate people spoke up for him at his trial - he lived in the Bethnal Green area of London.   One person was a weaver from Bethnal Green, the other was his father's employer who offered Richard a job if he was able to serve a custodial sentence rather than transportation.   His fathers employer being a James Watson, Cabinet Maker and Timber Merchant of Bethnal Green Road.   Richard Hardy at his trial said to be a cabinet maker for 3 1/2 yrs.

How accurate this is I can't say but reading through it all it does seems quite thorough.     I wouldn't have thought he'd have been much older (regardless of the gravestone) because his youngest Ada was born 1871!!!    If he'd been born c.1797 he'd have been 73/74 when she was conceived.   I doubt that very much.   There's also a picture of him and his wife although it's not dated.

Certainly, the arrival in Australia 1837 and his assignment to someone in Dungog all fits.

Annette

The trees are confusing. Some have Richard Burcham Hardy as a convict. Others do not.

I am tending to think that the "Burcham" Richard Hardy was probably not a convict. Unless he finished his sentence, came back to his wife in England and then went back again to Australia a free man?
The two convicts named Richard Hardy (see my last post) are not recorded in any of the criminal records as "Burcham" Hardy.

The Richard Burcham Hardy below is south of the river and I am not sure he fits well with where the convict Richard Hardy's were from and their east end gangs? criminal activity

Marriage by Banns
St Mary, Newington, Surrey, England
21st feb 1836
Richard Burcham Hardy - bachelor
Mary Wood - spinster
witnesses
James Hardy
Julia? ?? ?? ??

1841 Census
St Mary,Newington, Surrey, England
District 10
Richard Hardy age 20 - agent
Mary Hardy age 20

Title: Re: Hardy..an australian enigma
Post by: Lorraine Gleeson on Monday 11 February 19 04:35 GMT (UK)
I agree with Annette I don't think Richard burcham hardy came to Australia as I convict he was still in England in census records after the date people have him in trees as being sent to Australia. I do believe a Richard hardy came to Australia as a convict and married Sabrina hill and had many children with her and lived to a grand old age is buried failford cemetery mid north Coast nsw. I believe Richard burcham hardy married Mary wood and stayed in England and is not the Richard hardy in Australia. I have found a will for Richard burcham hardy in England 1855 and a bankrupt for him also
Title: Re: Hardy..an australian enigma
Post by: Lorraine Gleeson on Monday 11 February 19 05:21 GMT (UK)
Richard hardy born 1818 arrived Australia aged 19 convict stealing bacon 1837 I believe is not Richard burcham
Hardy . I have found an excerpt will Richard burcham hardy England 1855 . Richard hardy convict to Australia I believe never went back to England as many trees say he did in census records . I think these 2 are being wrongly confused in many trees . Death at maniac 1913 would have his age as 95 yrs when he died . I have seen family notes saying he wasn't 116 yrs old at death . My husband is a descendant the line is Richard hardy m Sabina (suvina ) hill daughter Jessica hardy m Thomas Keough daughter ada Jane mckeough m willie Kennedy daughter Eileen Macquarie Kennedy m William Scott their daughter Evelyn Eileen may Scott m Arthur Timothy Gleeson they are my husbands parents . I stand corrected but my research has me believing the same as Annette in the chat that the Richard hardy transported as a convict in1837 is not Richard burcham hardy . I believe he never came to Australia in fact died in England in 1855
Title: Re: Hardy..an australian enigma
Post by: mowsehowse on Monday 11 February 19 09:19 GMT (UK)
I don't think anyone else has mentioned this....
But, as Saphire says she is new to genealogy, may I point out that registration started 1837, so previously we have to rely on baptism (etc) church registers, and there were NOT any certificates.

Title: Re: Hardy..an australian enigma
Post by: Lorraine Gleeson on Monday 11 February 19 09:35 GMT (UK)
Thanks for reply it is confusing convict record doesn't mention Richard burcham hardy only Richard hardy  but will 1855 England Richard burcham hardy . I am confident Richard hardy convict was not Richard burcham hardy hopefully more research will clear up the confusion
Title: Re: Hardy..an australian enigma
Post by: Wiggy on Monday 11 February 19 10:00 GMT (UK)
sapphireblue67 was last active on RC in December 2016.   ;)

Hope she sees this resurrection of her thread.   :)
Title: Re: Hardy..an australian enigma
Post by: sarah on Monday 11 February 19 10:48 GMT (UK)
Hi Wiggy,

Sapphireblue65 has been notified of the replies to this topic, there has been no problem with the email notification.

Regards

Sarah :)