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Some Special Interests => Travelling People => Topic started by: centralscrutiniser on Friday 13 August 10 15:35 BST (UK)
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Hi All
I'd be very grateful if anyone has any suggestions for finding out more about some Boswell family members please?
The 1891 census shows three caravans, at New Road, Merthyr Tydfil. Frederick Boswell (b. c1840 in Cheshire) and his wife Charlotte (b.1838 Howe) lived in the first with their daughter Maria (b.1874, Wellington Shropshire). The second caravan housed Lloyd Roberts (b.1856 in Bulith) his wife Annie (b.1861 Neath) and his brother Lewis (b.1871). Frederick's other daughter Alice Maud (b.1868 in Dudley) lived in the third and final caravan on the street with her husband Henry Watts (b. 1861 Treorchy) and their children William, Annie and Richard. Their other daughter Charlotte lived in the first caravan with her grandparents.
I am keen to find anything I can about these people, especially who Frederick and Charlotte's parents might have been, and what Charlotte's maiden name was.
I'm also interested to know about their work - Frederick is listed as 'Hawker and Stall Keeper', his wife Charlotte as what appears to say 'fancy foods-keeper' with son in law Henry as a 'swinging boat keeper'. Even more intruigingly Lloyd and Lewis Roberts are both listed as 'showman'. Can anyone offer some advice on where I might find out about what they did, which circus/fair they might have been performing with, or exactly what a 'showman' might have done?
It seems likely that given that they were living in caravans and from the births of them and their children seemed to have travelled around, as well as the Boswell name, they might have been Romany. Can anyone suggest anywhere I might find out some more information about Romanies in Wales around this time?
Thanks for any help!
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hi, c.s. the name is a romany one for sure, i know some of the boswell family my self. they have done all types of of work all over the uk, and would have been show men too. try the (romany genes) site.and there is a site for show men but i cannot recall it, just type, family history showmen and lots of sites will come up? as to the occupations. hawker is a seller of goods. stall holder is any kind of side show stall that could be easy to move around with games or goods to sell, and the food stalls are the same as you would get at any fair today by fancy it may be toffee apples sweets etc.all easy to make. the swings are the old type of rope pull swings that you still see, they would have travelled with lots of other familys. to fairs etc all over the country, there are lots of gypsy boswells in the uk. a very old romany name. i think you will find lot of info when you start looking ..good luck..rob..g
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Hi Rob, thanks for your reply.
I've had a look at a few sites, including the Romany Genes one which seems very good.
When I googled Frederick and his details a page came up romanyjib paint bucket, or something similar. It seems to show some details of the people I'm looking for but is a private membership forum for which you need an invitation. Is anyone a member of this site who might be able to check if there are any details on Frederick and family please?
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Hi,
I think its "fancy goods vendor" in 1891 census. Could this be the marriage -
Frederick Boswell June 1866 Dudley 6c 95
Brides - Charlotte Burns or Susannah Benton
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Hi catone, thanks. Fancy goods vendor sounds intruiging - any idea what constitutes fancy goods?
Is that wedding at St Thomas' Dudley? I found a reference to a Frederick Boswell marrying a Charlotte Burns in June 1866, and although somebody (coincidentally named Boswell!) has transcribed all the births, marriages and deaths for the church from about 1830 to 1890, the period 1860-68 is missing!
Apologies, I'm new to this, but where did you find the reference to the wedding and what does the 6c 95 code relate to please?
Thanks again
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The reference is what you need if you want to order the certificate, I found the marriage on freebmd.org.uk
I think "fancy goods" are trinkets/gifts etc like what people would buy from fetes/holiday places today
Couldn't find Frederick/Charlotte on earlier censuses before 1881 though :-\
Regards
Cat :)
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Thanks, I hadn't seen that site but it looks good.
Did you find them on the 1881 census then? We havent seen them before the 1891 census - if you did, do you have a reference?
Thanks!
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Sorry I took so long to get back to you, took daughter to the park, heres the reference for 1881, although Fredericks age is 80 (place of birth Burslem? Staffordshire) and Charlotte is 63 (place of birth Builth) :-\
RG11/5317 Folio 91 Page 6
69 Brecon Road, Tydfilwell, Merthyr Tydfil, Glamorgan
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Hi Centralscutiniser
General tip to get to Romany sites, google "Romany or Romani or just Gypsy" there is a wealth of them all offering info of all types.
Ray
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Thanks Cat one. I don't think they're the right ones, our Frederick was definately born in Workington and Charlotte Howe, Radnorshire according to the census, and should be a bit younger but will have a look. thanks again.
Pooker, thanks for the suggestion. I've found a fair bit of good information on Romany through googling, it's this one gypsyjib site that seems to have some info on the exact people I'm looking for that I can't access without an invitation.
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Well if they arent the same ones it must be one heck of a coincidence there being two Frederick and Charlotte Boswells with a daughter Maria born c1873/4 Wellington Shropshire and having a daughter Annie and son in law Lloyd Roberts! ;D
ps. from helping to look for romany families in the past on here, I know they often change their year and place of birth
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There's that much on there? I haven't looked at the actual doc but if you got all that it might be right then. From what we know though Frederick should be about 40 in 1881 - would they have changed their age by that much?
Or, possible it's his parents? Doesn't fit with the children etc but still.
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Blimey, thanks for this - we hadn't seen this form before. Certainly looks like a strong connection, and the childrens ages seem to be about right but Charlotte should be 43 not 63, and Frederick should be about 41 not 80. I think it might be his father, as our Frederick was born in Cheshire.
Definately looks like the same people though. Can you make out what the professions say? I think Frederick says 'cutter and grinder' and Lloyd seems to be something along the lines of 'milk-something'.
either way, thanks again!
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Cutter and grinder - milk seller - and Charlotte is a machinist (seamstress written after)
I think the ages are probably a mistake, maybe the enumerater couldn't read the forms if they were completed by the family so guessed what they said, or they could have been misheard, or maybe they just didn't want to tell the truth, I've read that a lot of people used to be suspicious of the census.
Regarding Frederick's birth place being Staffordshire, I did see, on earlier censuses a Boswell family in Staffs that were Cutters and Grinders, with a son named "Frith" Could he be Frederick with a more "English" name or maybe a relatives family anyway....
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Have you Fredericks birth cert as you seem to know he was born in Cheshire?
From the fantastic Romanygenes site there is a book mentioned
The Genealogy of the Romany Boswells by Robert Dawson
Well worth buying a copy
Welsh Lady
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You've got a talent for reading the handwriting!
It does seem that they must be the same people. I wonder how they managed to get into showbusiness over the intervening 10 years?
I'll have a look for this family in Staffs.
Thanks
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Hi Welsh Lady
I don't know he was born in Cheshire for certain, I'm just going off the 1891 census. We only found we had a link to these people a couple of weeks ago so have practically nothing on them at all.
I've heard about this book - if I see a copy anywhere it sounds like it's worth a read.
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I see Maria married Frederick Charles Butcher in Methyr Tyfil in 1893, do you have her in 1901? RG13/5009 Folio 144 Page 17
I think if you get one of the children's birth certificates or Frederick and Charlotte's marriage certificate, it would confirm if Burns is Charlotte's maiden name and not a previous married name, as the Burns family haven't been traced on any census yet - Maria's birth seems to be registered in Wellington Shropshire in 1872.
Is this your Frederick's death, seems to be correct by year of birth -
Frederick Boswell March 1900 Pontypridd 11a 363 age 59
and Charlotte -
Charlotte Boswell December 1895 Pontypridd 11a 323 age 59
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aaahhh just found this -
Marriage -
Lloyd Roberts June 1877 Pontypridd 11a 417
One of the brides listed being Annie Burns
So either she was born out of wedlock or to a previous marriage of Charlotte??
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From IGI -
Children christened to Frederick and Charlotte -
Alice b. 03/07/1866 chr. 22/07/1866 Saint Thomas, Dudley
Maria chr. 22/06/1872 Wellington, Shropshire
In 1881, Alice is a servant, for the Summers family, at 4 Union Place, Methyr Tydfil RG11/5313 Folio 53 Page 4
and finding Alice lead to Frederick and Charlotte in 1871! -
Fredk Boswell 30 Cutter and Grinder
Charlotte 20
Alice 4
Henry 1
High Street, Burslem, Staffs
RG10/2851 Folio 80 Page 8
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Theres a possible birth on the IGI for a Frederick Acquilla Boswell in Wednesbury, Staffs 18/02/1838, parents Isaiah and Ann Boswell but the only Isaiah and Ann Boswell I can find in 1841 is this one, no sign of Frederick and I can't find a death either :-\
Isaiah Boswell 25 Coach? Smith All born in county
Ann 25
F...zor 5 months (a tick is in the female column)
Well Croft, Wednesbury, Staffs
HO107/984/1 Folio 52 Page 21
This would seem to be the correct family as the one who had Frederick Acquilla as there are other records for children of this couple, including a girl Thurza who is probably the unreadable one on 1841 census
In 1851 this family is in Birmingham and Isaiah is now a "Band Master" I think it reads - HO107/2057 Folio 320 Page 25
In 1861, Ann is a widow and living with her children Herbert and Margaret in Duddeston, Aston, Warwickshire (transcribed as "Baswell")
Baffled as to where Frederick is pre 1871 :-\
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Thank you again for all your efforts, it seems like you found a fair few great leads. I'll try and get hold of a few of these certificates, especially the marriage certificate and see where that takes us.
Thanks!
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Link to this thread:
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,475751.0.html
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Just to let folk know Romanyjib is now open to all as it was originally sorry for any inconvenience :)