RootsChat.Com
Research in Other Countries => Australia => Topic started by: BarossaPearl on Saturday 21 August 10 02:31 BST (UK)
-
Can anyone out there give me any background on William Charles Degenhardt, born 2 July 1882 in Adelaide. His father was Robert Degenhardt and his mother, Louisa Mary Fisher. I know that William married twice, in 1902 and also in abt 1932. I also know that he changed his name to Fisher prior to his 2nd marriage. I haven't been able to find any death notices for him. I also realise that some of his information may be sensitive so you can PM me if you choose. :D Completed
-
He is listed as deceased husband on the index when his second wife died:
FISHER Amy Fisher age 76yrs d. 6/12/1955
Status: W
Relative: William Charles FISHER [DH]
Residence: Plympton, Death Place: Plympton
District Code: Ade, Book: 835/Page: 7452
-
William's death:
FISHER Charles William age 71yrs d. 23/5/1954
Status: M
Residence: North Adelaide, Death Place: Adelaide
District Code: Ade, Symbol: H, Book: 811/Page: 2585
-
Thanks Merlin, but I am not sure that William Charles Fisher is actually Charles William Fisher. What info can I get from the SA death notice, anyone know?
-
Why don't you think it's him ???
The names & age are a match, he died in a hospital, depending on who the informant was errors with information occur! His wife was elderly at the time also...
This is not a death notice it is his death certificate registration from the SA Registry death index.
-
Centennial Park Cemetery SA
Amy FISHER - from PLYMPTON
Age: 76 Years
Interment Details: Burial
Section: General D
Path: 6
Site: 455
-
Well this one is William Charles DEGENHARDT
http://newspapers.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/29007521?searchTerm=degenhardt
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/5026748?searchTerm=willunga%20william%20foreman
Information on South Australian certificates
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=368744.0
Deaths in 1954 and 1955 would have place of burial. I wonder if it is the correct Wm Charles, why he isn't buried at Centennial Park with his wife?
Transcription agents in SA
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,280572.msg1367795.html#msg1367795
Link to Centennial Park
http://www.centennialpark.org/burial_memorial_search/
Sadly the image of her headstone is no help
http://www.centennialpark.org/photos/search_result/?pid=12310#
Have you considered searching the Advertiser death notices for Amy and Wm C. as you have possible dates of death. The death notice in the paper may help you identify Wm C or Chas Wm. If you are unable to visit the SLSA then perhaps use their Ask a Librarian Service
http://www.slsa.sa.gov.au/site/page.cfm?area_id=15&nav_id=669
Cheers
Cando
-
I suppose that I am not convinced that that is the right person because he has been so hard to get any concrete evidence on. I have read all the newspaper reports and gazettes. I wonder if it is worthwhile applying to have his death cert. and would that give me enough to convince myself that it is the right person?
-
I am not convinced the death cert or transcription, will really help you. Info is so sparse on SA death certs - no names of spouse or children in the period you are researching....and as I frequently write, the information on a death certificate is only as good as the knowledge of the informant, who it would appear in this case, if it is your Wm Chas, couldn't even detail his given names in correct order. Perhaps the place of burial may help if there is a headstone with more information noted.
From info on Certs in SA >South Australian>Australian Resources at top of the board
1908-1947
* Date and Place of Death
* Name
* Sex
* Age
* Occupation
* Usual Residence
* Birthplace
* Length of Residence in Commonwealth
* Age at Marriage
* Number of Issue Living and Deceased
* Cause of Death
* Place of Death
* Informant
1948-1967
As for 1908-1947 with the addition of
* Place of Burial
Just my two bob's worth. ;D
I had a quick search of the 1939 Commonwealth Electoral Roll which only includes the metropolitan electorates of Barker, Boothby and Hindmarsh, but couldn't see an enrolment for Amy or William Charles FISHER. However he may not have lived in those electorates.
I have read all the newspaper reports and gazettes.
khicks
But not the death notices in 1954 and 1955....that would be my next step.
Cheers
Cando
-
Why not contact Centennial Park to see if they have any info....someone would have been the leaseholder on Amy's grave, the tenure of which expired in 2005. Info on expired sites
http://www.centennialpark.org/about/expired_sites/default.asp
Cando
-
The name FISHER that he used originates from Amy's middle name & you can also see it on her death as Amy Fisher FISHER in reply #1.
Here's her birth:
MORPHETT Amy Fisher b. 29/11/1879
Birth Place/Residence: East Wellington, District Code: Wel, Book: 230/Page: 255
Father: George MORPHETT
Mother: Hellen GRANT
-
The name FISHER that he used originates from Amy's middle name & you can also see it on her death as Amy Fisher FISHER in reply #1.
Or from his mother's maiden name :D
His father was Robert Degenhardt and his mother, Louisa Mary Fisher.
khicks
Cheers
Cando
-
Very true Cando ;D
His mother appears as Mary FISHER & Mary Lousia FISHER in the indexes.
-
Could he be buried wih his first wife?
Jenn
-
BP
as you are no doubt aware
there is a birth in SA with the father named as William Charles Degenhardt during the time he was married to his first wife May Flanagan
Maxwell Adrian Degenhardt or Jarrett registered under both names born 5/12/1904 mother Hilda Rosetta Jarret
He married May Flanagan on th 26/8/1902 not so many days after she gave birth to their first child :o
5/8/1902 William Charles Degenhardt mother May Flanagan
12/3/1905 Gertrude Degenhardt mother May Flanagan
Jenn
-
Yes, he was quite a lad ;D
-
True, but haveyou considered his burial with his first wife
Do you have her death details or were they divorced?
Jenn
-
Previous thread about Hilda HOARE nee JARRETT
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,476804.0.html
There were two other births as well to Hilda prior to her marriage to Henry HOARE but these don't appear to be registered. Hilda claimed maintenance from Wm C and may have been co-habitating with Henry HOARE at that time. All from Barossa Pearl.
Jenn I did look for a death of May Elizabeth or a possible re-marriage...nil result. I am not looking again as I am having all sorts of compatability problems with my resources as I have a new computer with Windows 7. I have to actually re-load and install the digger software just to search. I have just loaded Windows Virtual PC and XP Mode hoping the resources will be accessible that way. I formerly had all the disc data loaded on to the hard drive and only had to click onto the icon on the desktop to search....no annoying CD's to load, however won't function on Windows 7. Frustration ++++++++ I must be getting old....don't like change :-[ :-[
Cheers
Cando
-
Hi Cando
That must be very frustrating indeed, I could not load mine to the computer so have to insert every time I search the relevant Disc, >:(
Thanks for looking for a possible death for May Elizabeth mine resource only goes to 1916
Kind thoughts Jenn ( overworked and frazzled most of the time 8)
-
A notice in the Adelaide Advertiser is "coming soon'
We can read at present
5th Nov 1932
Probably In Memoriam section
In loving memory of our dear mother MAY DEGENHARDT called ....etc.
Do note also that "maintenance issues" in connection with the man were detailed in the paper in 1916.
Sue
-
Ah our super sleuth Sue ;D
Will try to search for that death.
Cheers
Cando
-
It would be unlikely that he was buried with May, as in 1915 he is recorded as saying that he had not seen his wife for 7 years and that he had all 4 of his legitimate children living with him at his parents' house. The notice for May in 1932 appears to have been placed by the children in 1932 and I am waiting to see it digitised to see if contains anymore clues. I am hoping that it is an In Memorium, because otherwise I think he would still be married to May when he married Amy. I was aware of the 1915 maintenance case, what was the 1916 record? Hence my comment about him being quite a lad.
-
ADDING.. A third child
On 5th Oct 1907 MAY DEGENHARDT wife of WILIAM CHARLES, of the postal department, was delivered of a daughter and at the time of going to press, both were doing well ::)
Sue
-
No luck. Only the death of a May DEGENHARDT, possibly her daughter in 1955 aged 51. I have only 8 searches left on the disc so will leave searching for deaths in SA for a while...well at least until I get it sorted out with the suppliers.
A birth notice*
http://newspapers.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/5097350?searchTerm=may+degenhardt
Cheers
Cando
Edit *Detailed by Sue ;D
-
I have 4 legitimate children.
Charles William DEGENHARDT B: 15 Aug 1902
May DAGENHARDT B: 18 Feb 1904 (Father William Charles DAGENHARDT & May FLANNAGHAN) this has to be the same family, too close to be coincidence.
Gertrude DEGENHARDT B:12 March 1905
Louisa Mary DEGENHARDT B: 1 October 1907
For obvious reasons I do not wish to list illegitimate children
-
In answer to your query about the 1916 maintenance article
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/6478761?searchTerm="william degenhardt"
I suspect he was up to his tricks here of juxtaposing his given names .
CHARLES WILLIAM
Of course it may not be him at all!
Sue
-
Pretty sure that it is the same person. I think in this case the journo may have transposed the names. The 10 July 1915 entry in The Advertiser relating to the maintenance is very interesting if you would like to see that one.
-
Agree...I think it's him...gosh he was a busy boy :o
10 Jly 1915
http://newspapers.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/5474093?searchTerm=degenhardt
Cando
-
Just another enigma of my family. Nothing about this side of the family has been plain sailing, William's grandfather and grandmother created about 6 pages of answers!
I think that we can also assume that William spent time in prison because he does not appear to have paid the maintenance.
It may even turn out that William changed his name to Fisher so that he could marry Amy, he may not have been divorced from May at the time.
-
Sorry to throw another cat amongst the pigeons but May Degenhardt may not have died in South Australia, there were a lot of the family who moved to Murtoa in Victoria, including William's grandfather.
-
I did check before..nothing in Victoria.
Cando
-
This snippet hasn't been processed but is quite legible - no further clue as to when or where she died. Perhaps the transcribed entry in the death index has been mistranscribed.
The Advertiser (Adelaide,... Saturday 5 November 1932, page 14. Family Notices 5590 words
DEGENHARDT.—In loving memory of our mother. May Degenhardt. Called from this world of sorrow. Sweet rest at last. —Inserted by her children, Charles, May, Gertie, Louie.
Cheers
Cando
-
Well that's interesting. Looks as though at some time May did resume contact with her children. It would be good to find out when and where she died. I have found William's marriage to Amy, 24/12/1931 and gives his status as widower. Book 329 Page 776 Cross reference William Charles Fisher. Did they divorce or is this why he changed his name?
-
The death entry, if that is for May Degenhardt in 1955, that would tie in with the daughter. The age would be right.
If the 1932 notice is one of those on the first anniversary of the death, then the dates would also fit for the marriage of William and Amy, just a month after May's death.
-
The death entry, if that is for May Degenhardt in 1955, that would tie in with the daughter. The age would be right.
Yes, their daughter.
DEGENHARDT May age 51yrs d. 23/10/1955
Status: S
Residence: Colonel Light Gardens, Death Place: Magill
District Code: Nor, Symbol: H
Book: 833/Page: 6306
-
Wm C 1904
http://newspapers.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/5009780?searchTerm=william+degenhardt
In 1906
http://newspapers.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/5026748?searchTerm=william+degenhardt
1929 Wm C's occupation is now noted as a painter
http://newspapers.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/search?searchTerm=william+degenhardt&textSearchScope=full&startFrom=60
http://newspapers.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/29640479?searchTerm=william+degenhardt
http://newspapers.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/search?searchTerm=william+degenhardt&textSearchScope=full&startFrom=50
http://newspapers.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/search?searchTerm=william+degenhardt&textSearchScope=full&startFrom=30
#The newspaper issue containing this article has been digitised. It cannot yet be viewed. It is being quality assured to check it conforms to our specifications. It will be available in the next few weeks.
The Advertiser (Adelaide,... Wednesday 1 May 1929, page 7. Detailed lists, results, guides 231 words
POLICE COURT—ADELAIDE. Tuesday, April 30. (Before Mr. E.M. Sabine, P.M.)
... Messrs. J. B. Stevenson and S. G. Grant.) William Charles Degenhardt was charged with having failed to...
Cheers
Cando
-
Could he be buried wih his first wife?
Jenn
Or his mother at West Terrace Cemetery
http://newspapers.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/5563173?searchTerm=william+degenhardt
According to online indexes, there is no headstone for Mary DEGENHARDT at West Terrace.
Cheers
Cando
-
Perhaps see if the Charles William FISHER who died in 1954, had a will
Probate Registry
Supreme Court of South Australia
1 Gouger Street
Adelaide SA 5000
Indexes—published in fiche form to 1995 but reproduction is quite poor
Wills —application has to be made with SSAE and reply will advise availability and request fee payment.
Cheers
Cando
-
Thanks everyone for all your help so far, I really appreciate it.
-
Just another question regarding Amy Fisher MORPHETT who became William's 2nd wife. Her birth place is given as East Wellington in the District of Wellington. Apart from the obvious answer being in New Zealand, does anyone know where this is?
-
Hi
Apart from the obvious answer being in New Zealand, does anyone know where this is? BAROSSAPEARL
Using your search engine and entering- Wellington South Australia- could help you to establish this ;D
Sue
-
Sorry having a totally dumb day today (or maybe not only today) Will certainly give it a whirl. :D
-
there is also a Wellington in NSW it is near Dubbo ;D
but that is irrelevant give her birth record
Jenn
-
From Cyber Space
■Located near where the River Murray enters Lake Alexandrina, Wellington is approximately 105 kilometres south-east of Adelaide.
■The first parties to overland cattle from the Port Phillip District crossed the River Murray at a point near Wellington.
■John Morphett, the South Australian agent of the Secondary Towns Association in England, recommended that a major town should be established near where the River Murray enters Lake Alexandrina. Consequently, the area was surveyed in 1840.
■The settlement was initially known as Morphett's Crossing.
■Morphett established a ferry service at Wellington, probably in 1839.
■From 1841, a police station was established at Wellington.
■By 1846, the name Wellington, after the Duke of Wellington who defeated Napoleon at Waterloo, was the officially recognised name of the town.
■In the same year, a punt was established to replace Morphett's ferry.
■This punt was replaced by a government ferry - the first government ferry across the River Murray in South Australia - in 1848.
■In 1851 gold was discovered in Victoria leading to a mass exodus of working men from South Australia. Wellington was the crossing point over the Murray on the way to the gold fields for the diggers and the gold escort, led by police commissioner, Alexander Tolmer, established the South Australian government to safely bring the gold back to the state.
■When the first bridge across the River Murray was built at Murray Bridge in 1879 and the main railway lines were built through Murray Bridge and Tailem Bend, traffic through Wellington waned.
■Today the area around Wellington is used for farming, particularly dairy farming
So am wondering if Amy Fisher Morphett was related to John Morphett??
Jenn
-
Hi all, I had just had a look at the history of Wellington in SA and wondered the same thing. It is not that common a name, so maybe Amy was related to John Morphett. I wonder if the family had any money, she was an aging spinster at the time. Can I be really cynical and think that William married her for money?
-
Well he was a bit of a rogue so why not tarnish him further and add gold digger to his faults. :P
Jenn
-
Well he was constantly in court for not paying maintenance, so why not? The man obviously had a way with the girls!
-
Unfortunately no help with the 1932 item re May. It is an IM but alas no dates or places. If the death occured elsewhere these were often placed instead of death notices so I cannot say for sure her passing was at least a year ago
In loving memory of out mother May DEGENHARDT. Called from this world of sorrow. Sweet rest at last
Inserted by her children Charles, May, Gertie, Louie
Cheers Kris :)
-
Nothing in the daughters either
26 Oct 1955
The friends of the late Miss May Degenhardt of 53 Penang Ave Col Light Gardens are respectfully informed that her remains were peacefully laid to rest privately at Cen Park Cemetery on Wednesday afternoon. The Rev L E W RENFREY officiated. Alfred James and Sons Unley and Mile End
no Obit
Cheers Kris :)
-
List of MIs for West Terrace only lists
DEGENHARDT Mary died 18-2-1917 "Mother"
South of Rd 5 Row 6W
DEGENHARDT Walter died 25--1934 aged 45 father of Mabel and Walter
Mabel died 30-3-1966 aged 74 wife of above
Eyre 19E
Cheers Kris :)
-
FISHER On Dec 6 at 284 Anzac Highway Plympton Any FISHER beloved mother of George and McIntosh ELLERY and daughter of the late George MORPHETT Snr of Wellington Estate SA aged 76 years. At Rest.
FISHER the friends of the late Mrs Amy FISHER of 284 Anzac Highway Plympton are respectfully informed that her funeral will leave the Claude Trevelion Chapel 58 Magill Rd Norwood this day (Wed) after service commencing at 3.45 PM for the Centennial Pk Crematorium......Claude TREVELION AFDA Head Office and Chapel Norwood residence Somerton
2 births were listed to Amy
ELLERY George Grant 7 Mar 1903 Adelaide Dist Ade Symbol X 709 24 Father not recorded mother Amy MORPHETT
ELLERY McIntosh Fisher 22 Nov 1904 Adelaide Dist Ade Symbol X 739 245 Father not recorded mother Amy Fisher MORPHETT
Births are also listed under Morphett
Cheers Kris :)
-
Now to Charles William - alas I can't say...It is the same funeral director is all I can say. There is no obit :'(
FISHER The friends of the late Mr Charles William FISHER late of 84 Stanley St North Adelaide are respectfully informed that his remains were privately laid to rest on Tue 25 May in the West Terrace Cemetery. Rev S A MAINSTONE officiated
Claude TREVELION AFDA Head Office and Funeral Parlor 56-58 Magill Rd Norwood
Cheers Kris :)
-
Well from there I thought I would try the Electoral Rolls. Ho Hum...FAILURE. Could not find them either together or separately 1950-1955. Spent hours looking around particularly anywhere near Adelaide and Plympton.
I did however find them a couple of times
1946 - 10 Wakefield St Adelaide
FISHER William Charles - Decorator
FISHER Amy - Home Duties
also at the address
ELLERY George Grant - Metal Polisher
ELLERY Victoria Blanche Home Duties
1949 ditto above but add George and Victoria's son a Polisher
I found this son of George and Blanche still around Adelaide in 1950 and with his wife in 1952. Seems his parents were not married at the time of his birth either. I did not see George or Blanche or William and Amy. There is no indexing just lots of books so maybe they were all hiding somewhere I did not look. I can say they were not at Plympton or North Adelaide :'(
Cheers Kris :)
-
Thanks Kris
I have been off doing other things so haven't checked for a while. Looks like Amy was no shrinking violet either. William does appear to have like children, just not paying for them! ;D
-
Hi.
There is a relationship between Sir John Morphett (1809-1892) and Amy Fisher Morphett.
Amy is Sir John's third cousin once removed.
Their common ancestors are Thomas Morphett (c1669-1722) and his wife Jane Smith.
Line to Sir John Morphett:
Thomas Morphett (c1669-1722) (wife Jane Smith)
Thomas Morphett (c1712-1795) (wife Mary Turner)
John Morphett (c1742-1813) (wife Mary Paine)
Nathaniel Morphett (c1779-1848) (wife Mary Gliddon)
Sir John Morphett (1809-1892) (wife Elizabeth Fisher)
Line to Amy Fisher Morphett:
Thomas Morphett (c1669-1722) (wife Jane Smith)
John Morphett (c1716-1753) (wife Elizabeth Rolfe)
Jeremiah Morphett (c1752-1829) (wife Elizabeth Furner)
George Morphett (c1797-1882) (wife Sarah Taylor)
George Morphett (c1836-1921) (wife Ellen Grant)
Amy Fisher Morphett (1879-1955) (husband William Charles Degenhardt - afterwards FISHER)(1882-1954).
William Charles Degenhardt is often called "Charles William" - His funeral Notice has "Charles William" while the burial record at West Terrace Cemetery has "William Charles"
Advertiser (Adelaide, SA) Wednesday 26 May 1954 Page 24
FISHER. — THE FRIENDS of the Late Mr. CHARLES WILLIAM FISHER, late of 84 Stanley street, North Adelaide, are respectfully informed that his Remains were privately laid to rest on TUESDAY, May 25, in the West Terrace Cemetery. Rev. S. A. Mainstone officiated. CLAUDE TREVELION, A.F.D.A. Funeral Directors. Head Office and Chapel. 56-58 Magill road, Norwood. MF2084.
WILLIAM CHARLES FISHER
DETAILS
Interred on 25/05/1954 at 71 Years of age.
Previously lived in NTH ADELAIDE.
Has the death of his first wife [May Elizabeth Flanagan: father John Margitich] been found?
A thought: Even though the children published an in memoriam in the name Degenhardt, this may not have been the name she was using when she died.
Was she previously married OR is she the illegitimate child of a Miss Flanagan and the said John Margitich?
Regards
-
William Charles DEGENHARDT, as mention father was Robert Degenhardt and mother Louisa Mary fisher, but does anyone know any more information about his parents such as their date of birth or when they married?
I am presuming that with a surname like Degenhardt ( sounds german) if his father was born in Australia and if maybe Robert was born in Australia or Germany maybe there is something on immigration or ship records?
Fingers cross as i realise I am really late to this conversation
-
This family is very complicated since their German names have been confused with each other.
Four DEGENHARDT brothers arrived 1846.
http://www.theshipslist.com/ships/australia/heerjeebhoyrustomjeepatel1846.shtml
One was Johann Carl Ludwig/Louis b. 01. 03. 1824, But he also appears listed when his parents emigrated 1849. Maybe Ludwig/Louis/Lewis returned home to accompany his parents. http://www.theshipslist.com/ships/australia/georgewashington1849.shtml
Also, a fellow passenger named Fredricke Caroline (Lina=nickname for Caroline) HAMSTER (aka COTTE/KOTTE) came with them and she was the first wife of Ludwig/Louis. There is no record of a marriage in SA but possibly they married after applying to emigrate and before sailing 25 Oct 1848 since their first child was born in SA 4 Sep 1849.
Louis and Lina were the parents of Robert (a twin) born 1 May 1854.
Five children were born between 1849 and 1856.
Lina/Caroline died 6 Feb 1860, and brother-in-law Gustav was the informant.
Louis remarried 30 July 1860. I guess he needed someone to look after his young children?
Essie
-
Danke Essie no pun intended with my use of german.
I am new to rootschat so just discovered all this information so just digesting it all.