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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Lancashire => Topic started by: Eileencrimond17 on Saturday 21 August 10 13:55 BST (UK)
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I received my grandfather's death certificate this morning. The address where he died was given as 241 Westminster Road, Liverpool 4. He was descibed as being " of no fixed abode"--aged 77 descibed as a labourer.The informant was "occupier"
A cousin thought that he was living in the Kirkdale Homes at one point--we weren't sure if this was for "old people" or for sick people.
However going by the term "no fixed abode" it sounds as though it could be a lodging house where people went to at night but had to leave the next day?
Can anybody give me any information please?
Thank you
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Hi Eileen.
I've found a mention of the Kirkdale Homes being a home for the aged and infirm, from 1904 onwards, but was unable to find any more details.
This link may be of help:-
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/nra/searches/subjectView.asp?ID=O102382
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Hi Eileen.
I found a mention of the Kirkdale Homes being a home for the aged and infirm, from 1904 onwards, but was unable to find any more details.
This link may be of help:-
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/nra/searches/subjectView.asp?ID=O102382
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Hi Finbar--I'll try this--thank you
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Hi Eileen,
Have a look at this website:-
www.workhouses.org.uk
Please don't be put off that it is a workhouse website. If you put Kirkdale Homes in the search box, you should find some information in the Liverpool section. I think originally Kirkdale Industrial School was on the site but in 1904 it was taken over by West Derby and became Kirkdale Homes for the aged and infirm.
Also on the website is a list of the addresses used on certificates from 1904 to disguise the fact that a person had been born or died in one of these institutions. You can get to this link from the home page by following "Do you have any post 1904 workhouse birth or death certificates?" I couldn't see 241 Westminster Road on the list though.
Luzzu
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This may help you, in 1900 Gores Directory, there is no 241 Westminster Road listed, however there is a 239, below is the entry.
239 Westminster Rd. Hendry james A, M.R.C.s surgeon
Rumney rd. Parish of Liverpool industrial Schools, Birchalll Jas. Governor & Head Master Tees St.
next number is 297
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Hi Luzzu & Purlin, :) :)
Thank you both for your information--I am looking forward to following these up--possibly this evening but more likely tomorrow along with the info given by Finbar
I do appreciate you all taking the time & trouble to help
Thank you--Eileen
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well--have had a happy time checking information from you all, and "googling" around--including finding via the latter a message on here in 2008 with an almost identical query!
I have found a few leads to follow up inc that there are some records held at Liverpool RO-need to contact there as think they are closed just now.
I now know more & have a couple of things to look up still--so--thank you all.
Eileen
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Just found this discussion when I googled "241 Westminster Road"... and thought this information might help:
I have in front of me the death certificate of my father-in-law's stepfather who died at Kirkdale Homes in 1960. The death certificate lists both the Kirkdale Homes address, and his wife's (= my husband's grandmother's) address in Huyton. We understand that he suffered from dementia and that his wife was no longer able to look after him.
So - it would appear that it was NOT a place for homeless people. Perhaps people were listed as "of no fixed abode" if they had no other home?
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My grandmother was in the Kirkdale Homes in the 1960/70's and it was very much a geriatric ward.
The Liverpool Library Service at its temporary location within The World Museum will be open from the 1st September 2010.
The opening times are 10am till 5pm. It has been clearly marked as you enter the World Mureum by green footsteps on the floor going up the stairs to the Horseshoe Gallery. Those using the lifts the Horseshoe Gallery is on the second Floor.
The system for using the machines is on a first come first served basis. There will be no telephone bookings.
Archives which are in original form will not be available till October.
Watch this for updates (http://liverpool-genealogy.org.uk/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=9679&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0)
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Just found this discussion when I googled "241 Westminster Road"... and thought this information might help:
I have in front of me the death certificate of my father-in-law's stepfather who died at Kirkdale Homes in 1960. The death certificate lists both the Kirkdale Homes address, and his wife's (= my husband's grandmother's) address in Huyton. We understand that he suffered from dementia and that his wife was no longer able to look after him.
So - it would appear that it was NOT a place for homeless people. Perhaps people were listed as "of no fixed abode" if they had no other home?
Thank you for this Angelika--I have a feeling that by this time my grandfather was homeless--was talking about this on Wed with cousins & we wondered if he had lived in some sort of hostel and gone into the K homes when ill--my younger cousin thinks she remembers her mother visiting him there because he was very ill--we assume that granny must have been informed as next of kin even though he left her many years before-there was never any divorce.
I understand that K homes changed the name to Westninster homes for elderly & infirm or similar, but no doubt people still used the Kirkdale Homes name!
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My grandmother was in the Kirkdale Homes in the 1960/70's and it was very much a geriatric ward.
The Liverpool Library Service at its temporary location within The World Museum will be open from the 1st September 2010.
The opening times are 10am till 5pm. It has been clearly marked as you enter the World Mureum by green footsteps on the floor going up the stairs to the Horseshoe Gallery. Those using the lifts the Horseshoe Gallery is on the second Floor.
The system for using the machines is on a first come first served basis. There will be no telephone bookings.
Archives which are in original form will not be available till October.
Watch this for updates (http://liverpool-genealogy.org.uk/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=9679&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0)
quote]
Thank you for this information--I just thought that there would be no access to records for a while--so encouraging news
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I received my grandfather's death certificate this morning. The address where he died was given as 241 Westminster Road, Liverpool 4. He was descibed as being " of no fixed abode"--aged 77 descibed as a labourer.The informant was "occupier"
A cousin thought that he was living in the Kirkdale Homes at one point--we weren't sure if this was for "old people" or for sick people.
However going by the term "no fixed abode" it sounds as though it could be a lodging house where people went to at night but had to leave the next day?
Can anybody give me any information please?
Thank you
Don`t laugh...being a mad Evertonian I have walked down that road so many times...could 241 be The Police Station ?....the police station was closed down - turned into a pub called The Old Bill...allan ???
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I should explain ....I just thought maybe he died in The Police Station....he may have been found by a Policeman and was in a bad way / taken there and died there...hence ...the statement ..informer occupier ..ie the police ?...it may be an explanation...allan :)
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I should explain ....I just thought maybe he died in The Police Station....he may have been found by a Policeman and was in a bad way / taken there and died there...hence ...the statement ..informer occupier ..ie the police ?...it may be an explanation...allan :)
Now there's a thought!!
(Incidentally my family are long time Evertonians over several generations)
However--if my cousin was correct & she isn't 100% so, someone in the family was notified that my g father was in the Kirkdale Homes as he was seriously ill. The informant was named--Geo Armstrong--no occupation given. I can remember that some of the "whispers" were about my dad going or not going to see him & he eventually went from what my mother said years later--however--I didn't know where dad went & assumed as somehow I gathered that G father was ill that he was in hospital. Nobody seems to know where he was buried.
Think I will google the Dr's name
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Hello,
If it helps, my grandfather died at Westminster House in 1949. So, I've been down this road & asked all the same question you're asking now. I found the following info:
Westminster House was originally the Kirkdale Industrial Schools for children from Liverpool Workhouse. It was later converted into an old people's home. It closed in March 1968. The newspaper of the time listed it as "the largest old people's home in the country" It was run by Liverpool Health Committee.
Although Walton Hospital had a padded room in G Ward it was never used, certainly not after 1910, because lunatics (as they were called then) were transferred to Mill Road Hospital. By 1930 Mill Road closed that section and all mental patients sent to Smithdown Road. Belmont Road took female patients with senile dementia and Westminster House took the male patients with dementia. So Westminster House was one of the very early homes for the aged with dementia & probably also generally elderly people who didn't have dementia, but had nobody to look after them & couldn't cope alone. God bless them it sounded awful.
My grandfather's DC said the same: "No fixed abode" This confused me, as when I got the Westminster House records from LRO (£20) it gave NOK as his daughter & he lived with his daughter before he was admitted to WH in 1944. The records showed that over the 5 years until he died at WH, he was admitted & discharged about 4 times, staying with his daughter for anything from a few weeks to about 18 months. So he did have a home to go to.
I now know that this term of: "No fixed abode" was put on a person's DC when that person was a permanent resident of an institution. The informant who registered the death "The Occupier" on the DC, would be a member of staff at WH. Usually there was a person who did this job of registering deaths, it's the same at all hospitals.
The place of my grandfather's death was not given as Westminster House it actually said: Place of death: 241, Westminster Road, which I found was actually Westminster House.
They don't make it easy for us researchers do they!
Hope this Helps
HarrysGirl2
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Hello HarrysGirl2,
Thank you so much for taking the trouble to put this on here for me--I appreciate it very much & it does answer a few queries
I will pm you--Eileen
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The original records for Liverpool Kirkdale Homes which was situated at 241 Westminster Road are held at Liverpool. They will be available at the temporary City Library site in Sandhills. There is a 100 year closure on these records, so the only person who can retrieve the information is the research officer and there will be a charge.
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The original records for Liverpool Kirkdale Homes which was situated at 241 Westminster Road are held at Liverpool. They will be available at the temporary City Library site in Sandhills. There is a 100 year closure on these records, so the only person who can retrieve the information is the research officer and there will be a charge.
Yes, that's right the records are closed, but admission & discharge records can be obtained. It's the same for many records, which are closed, such as Workhouse records etc... even if they are still closed, the admission & discharge records can be obtained, for a fee of between £10 - £20 depending on the time it takes to find the records.
HG2
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The original records for Liverpool Kirkdale Homes which was situated at 241 Westminster Road are held at Liverpool. They will be available at the temporary City Library site in Sandhills. There is a 100 year closure on these records, so the only person who can retrieve the information is the research officer and there will be a charge.
Thank you for this information oldbones --will make a note of it--Eileen
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I am attempting to decipher the meaning of 'inmate' for the Kirkdale Homes 241, Westminster Road. address on an ancestor of mine where he lived in 1939. Could the inmate refer to being instituted as a mental patient or could it refer to a workhouse? My ancestor was 40 years old. Thank you!
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I am attempting to decipher the meaning of 'inmate' for the Kirkdale Homes 241, Westminster Road. address on an ancestor of mine where he lived in 1939. Could the inmate refer to being instituted as a mental patient or could it refer to a workhouse? My ancestor was 40 years old. Thank you!
'Inmate' was an old term that seems to infer confinement but 'patient' or 'resident' would be a better term here. It started out as 'Kirkdale Homes for the aged and infirm' in 1904. Infirmity would infer that some patients may not have been aged but would have been mentally or physically impaired in some way. In 1939 Kirkdale Homes was run by Liverpool City Council. In 1948 it was run by Liverpool City Council and the Regional Hospital Board. They became 'Westminster House Home for elderly people' in the early 1950s. It closed in 1968 and the buildings were demolished. This historical information comes from this site:-
https://www.workhouses.org.uk/Liverpool/
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