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Ireland (Historical Counties) => Ireland => Derry (Londonderry) => Topic started by: Steaming North on Sunday 22 August 10 18:50 BST (UK)
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Hi All,
I'm coming back to working through my family tree (I'd only just started!) and am looking down the "Black" side which leads me to a Mary Anne Andrews - she was born I believe in Kilrea?, Ballymoney, Londonderry in 1889 and died in Coatbridge, Scotland. Are there records for this area of Northern Ireland? I believe her husband John Henry Black was born in the same area in 1979 - do I have any hope of tracing them?
Thanks in advance.
Joe
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I've moved your post to Derry/Londonderry board since Kilrea is there. (Ballymoney, Co.Antrim, is the registration district for part of area around Kilrea)
Where did Mary Anne and John Henry marry? and do you know what religion they both were?
Added- have a baptism for a John Henry Black 2 Oct.1878 son of John Black and Mary Henry this is not correct person
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Thanks for the reply - the couple of times I have posted I've been amazed by the quick and helpful replies.
I've turned the computer off but from memory they were both living in Scotland (I think Coatbridge) and went back to the Coleraine area for their wedding. Any more than that though I'll have to look on the computer!
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If it's the correct John Henry Black then I have details of lots of siblings, parents and grandparents. May have found your Mary Anne Andrews but will wait until you check your notes before posting any more details.
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Hi,
John Black married Mary Annie Andrews on 31 Dec 1912 in Garvagh 2nd Presbyterian Church, Coleraine District. Should Aghadowey's suggestion be correct then John Black married Mary Henry on 11 Dec 1862 in Coleraine Civil Registrar's office.
Regards
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Thanks again.
I have John Henry Blacks parents as Hugh Lyle black and Mary Jane Wilson and hers as being Joseph and Margaret Andrews.
Looking forward to getting to look at all this again. I'll go mad if I start again now!
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John Black married Mary Annie Andrews on 31 Dec 1912 in Garvagh 2nd Presbyterian Church, Coleraine District.
Actual marriage record (2nd/Main St. Presbyterian Church), 31 Dec.1912: John Black, full age, bachelor, foreman ironworks, 31 Kildonan St. Coatbridge Scotland, son of Hugh Black, farmer, to Mary Annie Andrews, full age, spinster, Garvagh, dau. of Joseph Andrews, farmer. Witnesses: Andrew W. Boyd, Maggie J. Andrews.
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To be a bit cheeky - could you tell me where you are finding this information?
I am registered on a well known and advertised website for searching and recording but getting nowhere fast!
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Here's Mary Annie Andrews and sister (probably witness on the wedding) in 1911-
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Londonderry/Garvagh/Main_Street/591041/
And this look like family in 1901 living just outside Garvagh-
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Londonderry/Glenkeen/Ballyrogan/1520117/
And in 1911-
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Londonderry/Glenkeen/Ballyrogan/591197/
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To be a bit cheeky - could you tell me where you are finding this information?
I am registered on a well known and advertised website for searching and recording but getting nowhere fast!
Everyone knows everyone else in Garvagh :) I have the church records of Main St. Presbyterian Church
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Hi,
I have a Hugh Black who married Mary Jane Wilson on 25 Oct 1876 in Maghera Presbyterian Church.
Also a tentative Joseph Andrews who married Margaret Holmes on 4 Jun 1887 in Boveedy Presbyterian Church, Ballymoney District Co. Londonderry.
Regards
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Attached is photo of Maggie Andrews' shop in Garvagh taken c1923. She married (1921) a widower, Alexander Cunningham.
Also have more details on Andrews family which I'd need to send by PM if you are interested.
Added- that section of Main St. has been demolished.
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Also have information on Blacks- they moved near Andrews family which explains how John Henry and Mary Annie would have known each other.
Hugh Black, son of Thomas Black, farmer, Cloughfin (Kilcronaghan), married 25 Oct.1876 Maghera Prsbyterian Church to Mary Jane Wilson (d.bef.1910), Tobermore. By 1886 they were living at Churchtown, Ballintemple and then Gortfad c1900. Children:
1. Thomas (c1878).
2. John Henry born 8 July 1879
3. Hugh Clarke** born c1882 killed in action 24 Aug.1918. He eigrated to NZ c1912.
4. Henry Wilson "Harry" born c1884 went to U.S.
5. Margaret Anne born c1887
Family were in Gortfad for 1901 and 1911 census-
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Londonderry/Glenkeen/Gortfad/1520233/
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Londonderry/Glenkeen/Gortfad/591307/
** have photo of Hugh in WWI uniform
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Right! The emails popping up tempted me to come and have a look!
In order (I think).
Added- have a baptism for a John Henry Black 2 Oct.1878 son of John Black and Mary Henry
I think this must be a different John Henry Black, born with the same name, around the same time, but with different parents. I definitely have his parents as being Hugh Lyle Black and Mary Jane Wilson.
If it's the correct John Henry Black then I have details of lots of siblings, parents and grandparents. May have found your Mary Anne Andrews but will wait until you check your notes before posting any more details.
As I say I think this must be a different John, but possibly the same Mary Anne Andrews? Would be interested to know some more.
John Black married Mary Annie Andrews on 31 Dec 1912 in Garvagh 2nd Presbyterian Church, Coleraine District. Should Aghadowey's suggestion be correct then John Black married Mary Henry on 11 Dec 1862 in Coleraine Civil Registrar's office.
That confirms what I've got on record but gives more detail.
Actual marriage record (2nd/Main St. Presbyterian Church), 31 Dec.1912: John Black, full age, bachelor, foreman ironworks, 31 Kildonan St. Coatbridge Scotland, son of Hugh Black, farmer, to Mary Annie Andrews, full age, spinster, Garvagh, dau. of Joseph Andrews, farmer. Witnesses: Andrew W. Boyd, Maggie J. Andrews.
Even more info. again!
Here's Mary Annie Andrews and sister (probably witness on the wedding) in 1911-
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Londonderry/Garvagh/Main_Street/591041/
And this look like family in 1901 living just outside Garvagh-
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Londonderry/Glenkeen/Ballyrogan/1520117/
And in 1911-
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Londonderry/Glenkeen/Ballyrogan/591197/
Thank you.
I have a Hugh Black who married Mary Jane Wilson on 25 Oct 1876 in Maghera Presbyterian Church.
Also a tentative Joseph Andrews who married Margaret Holmes on 4 Jun 1887 in Boveedy Presbyterian Church, Ballymoney District Co. Londonderry.
Thank you. I'll have to see if I can tie Joseph Andrews in to it all.
Attached is photo of Maggie Andrews' shop in Garvagh taken c1923. She married (1921) a widower, Alexander Cunningham.
Also have more details on Andrews family which I'd need to send by PM if you are interested.
Added- that section of Main St. has been demolished.
Very interesting thanks. Do we know what the shop was? Yes, I'd love for you to PM me some more information on the Andrews.
Just something you may find interesting, my name is Joseph Andrew Black, my father Andrew Black, my grandfather Joseph Andrew Black...his mothers surname Andrews. I presume that this is where "Andrew" came into our names. So now I know!
Thanks again to you both.
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The shop in Garvagh was milliners/dressmakers- see the sisters' occupations in 1911 census.
Will start typing and send PM ...
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Also have information on Blacks- they moved near Andrews family which explains how John Henry and Mary Annie would have known each other.
Hugh Black, son of Thomas Black, farmer, Cloughfin (Kilcronaghan), married 25 Oct.1876 Maghera Prsbyterian Church to Mary Jane Wilson (d.bef.1910), Tobermore. By 1886 they were living at Churchtown, Ballintemple and then Gortfad c1900. Children:
1. Thomas (c1878).
I have Thomas as being born on 18 October 1877 and dying on 17 November 1965, marrying Mary Ellen (or Elizabeth - conflicting) Andrews in Coatbridge on 5 November 1909. These are my Great Grandparents).
2. John Henry born 8 July 1879
Married Mary Anne Andrews on 31 December 1912 in Coleraine area. He died in Coatbridge on 26 October 1949.
I presume that Mary Ellen Andrews and Mary Anne Andrews were some kind of relation but according to what I have they weren't sisters.
3. Hugh Clarke** born c1882 killed in action 24 Aug.1918. He eigrated to NZ c1912.
Born on 21 April 1881 and as you say died in 1918. I didn't know that he emigrated and didn't know there was a photo of him. If there's somewhere to see that, it would mean a lot to my Dad I'm sure!
4. Henry Wilson "Harry" born c1884 went to U.S.
Born 28 June 1884.
5. Margaret Anne born c1887
Born 20 January 1887 and died 28 February 1967.
Family were in Gortfad for 1901 and 1911 census-
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Londonderry/Glenkeen/Gortfad/1520233/
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Londonderry/Glenkeen/Gortfad/591307/
** have photo of Hugh in WWI uniform
To ask a stupid question, three of the "children" left Northern Ireland (Scotland, NZ and U.S). Presumably this would just be due to a lack of work?
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It's not a stupid question- yes, many young people left the area pre-WWI to find better oportunities mainly in Canada, U.S., Australia and N.Z.
Harry Wilson Black to U.S. 16 Oct.1909 from Londonderry, Ireland. 1919 Villa Nova, Pennsylvania. 5 Nov.1919 applied for U.S. passport to visit father & brothers.
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Sent you details of gravestone earlier by PM. Notice that you mentioned Mary E. Andrews probably related to Mary Annie Andrews but possibly not sisters.
Samuel Andrews, son of John Andrews, Gortfad was baptised 12 Dec.1849 Main St. Presbyterian Church (mother's name not recorded at that time). Samuel Andrews (carpenter) married Ellen Malone and had:
1. John born 16 June 1876, bapt. 20 Aug.1876
2. Samuel born 14 Feb.1878, bapt. 12 Mar.1878
3. James born 14 Feb.1878, bapt. 12 Mar.1878
4. Ellen Jane born 18 Apr.1879, bapt. 13 July 1879
5. William bapt. 23 Oct.1881
6. Mary Elizabeth bapt. 18 June 1883
7. Maggie born 5 Oct.1887, bapt. 9 June 1888
1901 Census- Samuel Andrews and some of the family living in Garvagh (mistranscribed as Sarvagh)-
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Londonderry/Garvagh/Sarvagh/1519987/
1911 census- widow Ellen and 2 children still in Garvagh-
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Londonderry/Garvagh/Garvagh/590941/
Death for Samuel Andrews July/Sept.1906 Coleraine district (age 56) is in civil index.
1901 census- Gortfad- Stewart Andrews, sister Rackel Rankin and niece Mary E. Andrews:
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Londonderry/Glenkeen/Gortfad/1520232/
(from other records- Rachel Andrews married 1863 John Rankin, Cah, daughter of William Andrews)
1911 census- Stewart Andrews in Gortfad with cousin William Andrews:
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Londonderry/Glenkeen/Gortfad/591305/
Death registration- Stewart Andrews Apr./June 1915 Coleraine district (age 85)
- Rachael Rankin death Apr./June 1907 Coleraine district (age 84)
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Also have information on Blacks- they moved near Andrews family which explains how John Henry and Mary Annie would have known each other.
Hugh Black, son of Thomas Black, farmer, Cloughfin (Kilcronaghan), married 25 Oct.1876 Maghera Prsbyterian Church to Mary Jane Wilson (d.bef.1910), Tobermore. By 1886 they were living at Churchtown, Ballintemple and then Gortfad c1900. Children:
1. Thomas (c1878).
I have Thomas as being born on 18 October 1877 and dying on 17 November 1965, marrying Mary Ellen (or Elizabeth - conflicting) Andrews in Coatbridge on 5 November 1909. These are my Great Grandparents).
2. John Henry born 8 July 1879
Married Mary Anne Andrews on 31 December 1912 in Coleraine area. He died in Coatbridge on 26 October 1949.
I presume that Mary Ellen Andrews and Mary Anne Andrews were some kind of relation but according to what I have they weren't sisters.
3. Hugh Clarke** born c1882 killed in action 24 Aug.1918. He eigrated to NZ c1912.
Born on 21 April 1881 and as you say died in 1918. I didn't know that he emigrated and didn't know there was a photo of him. If there's somewhere to see that, it would mean a lot to my Dad I'm sure!
4. Henry Wilson "Harry" born c1884 went to U.S.
Born 28 June 1884.
5. Margaret Anne born c1887
Born 20 January 1887 and died 28 February 1967.
Family were in Gortfad for 1901 and 1911 census-
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Londonderry/Glenkeen/Gortfad/1520233/
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Londonderry/Glenkeen/Gortfad/591307/
** have photo of Hugh in WWI uniform
To ask a stupid question, three of the "children" left Northern Ireland (Scotland, NZ and U.S). Presumably this would just be due to a lack of work?
???
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Hello Steaming North
I just googled Mary Andrews Black to see if it would bring anything up, and was surprised to see your searching message.
My Papa (Samuel Andrews) knew the Blacks from Coatbridge, they went to Dunbeth Church in Coatbridge (a Church of Scotland Church, the Church Building has now been converted into flats), The Mr Black he knew was called Hugh Black. Hugh Black's cousin was Tommy Black who lived on a farm in Northern Ireland, Tommy Black was also my Papa's cousin, but my Papa was not related to Hugh.
Hugh Black was married to Anna Black who I have heard is living in Milport in Scotland they have a son called Wilson Black from what I have heard still lives in Scotland maybe the Glasgow area. I hope this is helpful to you.
Could you give me any information on the Andrews family?
Is Miss Andrews who married a Black was she from the same Andrews Family as the man who built the Titanic.
Sorry if I sound a bit daft I just registered with this web site to reply to your question.
Hope you have luck finding what you are looking for.
JAndrews
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Hello Aghadowey
I am picking up on this thread, as I am a descendent of Hugh Black and Mary Jane Wilson and you have provided this info below
‘Hugh Black, son of Thomas Black, farmer, Cloughfin (Kilcronaghan), married 25 Oct.1876 Maghera Prsbyterian Church to Mary Jane Wilson (d.bef.1910), Tobermore. By 1886 they were living at Churchtown, Ballintemple and then Gortfad c1900. Children:
1. Thomas (c1878).
2. John Henry born 8 July 1879
3. Hugh Clarke** born c1882 killed in action 24 Aug.1918. He eigrated to NZ c1912.
4. Henry Wilson "Harry" born c1884 went to U.S.
5. Margaret Anne born c1887
Family were in Gortfad for 1901 and 1911 census-
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Londonderry/Glenkeen/Gortfad/1520233/
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Londonderry/Glenkeen/Gortfad/591307/
** have photo of Hugh in WWI uniform’
I also noted that you have records of Main Street Presbyterian Church. I wonder if you know if Hugh and Mary Black attended Main Street and are the buried there? Also, what is the record that shows them living in Churchtown, Ballintemple?
Many Thanks
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I also noted that you have records of Main Street Presbyterian Church. I wonder if you know if Hugh and Mary Black attended Main Street and are the buried there?
The only Black recorded in baptisms & marriages for Main St. is the 1912 marriage of John Black of Coatbridge to Mary Annie Andrews.
Also, what is the record that shows them living in Churchtown, Ballintemple?
Family living at Churchtown in 1884 (when Henry was baptised in 1st Garvagh) and 1887 (when Margaret was baptised there.
The PRONI Valuation Revision Books (online, free) should give a better idea of when they were in Churchtown and Gortfad (covers from printed version of Griffith's Valuation until c1930).
I suspect the 1886 date is from a tenant's list but would need to double check to be sure (it's downstairs and I'm not at the moment).
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Many thanks Aghadowey. I haven’t seen the Valuation books online before. Do you know by chance, when e.g. Lord Garvagh sold to tenants? I notice in 1914, records say ‘In fee’ with Lord Garvagh scored out.
Thanks for confirming the baptism of Henry and Margaret at 1st Garvagh. Do you know if 1st Garvagh records confirm that Hugh and Mary are buried in old 1st Garvagh graveyard?
Thanks
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Presbyterian churches don't usually keep burial records. This is the only Black headstone-
BLACK In loving memory of our dear daughter Nellie, who died 28th January 1952. Her father Thomas Black, who died 17th November 1965. Also her mother Mary Elizabeth who died 24th September 1872 and her brother Hugh Clarke Black who died 20th November 1995.
Note: transcription done a few years ago so not sure if any new details are on the headstone
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Hi I wanted to pick up on this post as my wife’s great grandfather Robert William was a brother to Margaret Andrews and Mary Anne Andrews mentioned in this thread.
Would love to find out any more details of the Andrews family. As far as we know their father Joseph Andrews owned a shop in the townland of Ballyrogan which is now derelict. If anyone has any photos or info linked to the Andrews family we would love to see them, and we have some photos and any info we have we would be happy to share.
Thanks in advance this is my first post :)
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Welcome to RootsChat :)
Would love to find out any more details of the Andrews family. As far as we know their father Joseph Andrews owned a shop in the townland of Ballyrogan which is now derelict.
You may have this information, but for others here are some links-
Robert William Andrews married Cassie Walls in 1916.
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1916/09777/5548603.pdf
The very sad death of Joseph Andrews in 1915.
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1915/05268/4462108.pdf
Ballyrogan townland
https://www.townlands.ie/londonderry/coleraine/errigal/glenkeen/ballyrogan/
Robert William ANDREWS born 28th September 1917 MMN WALLS
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1917/01298/1537512.pdf
James Thomas ANDREWS born 3rd January 1920 MMN WALLS
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1920/01227/1510516.pdf
KG
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Brilliant thank you for all that info KG. The Robert William Andrews born at Liscall who was the son of Robert William and Cassie is my wife’s grandfather.
We know he had two brothers Thomas and Joseph with Robert being the youngest son, so it is fascinating to see that was here was also a James Thomas Andrews who was born 3 years after Robert. I wonder what happened to him, as were told stories there was a young member of the Andrews family who may have drowned at Portrush. We’re speculating could this possibly be him?
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Hi I wanted to pick up on this post as my wife’s great grandfather Robert William was a brother to Margaret Andrews and Mary Anne Andrews mentioned in this thread.
Would love to find out any more details of the Andrews family.
Mary Anne Andrews married John Henry Black and were sister-in law and brother to my Grandfather. John Henry, Mary Anne (or Annie) & family lived in Scotland and I am still in touch with their grandchildren.
Kiltaglassan, thanks for sharing further links related to the Andrews family.
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Kiltaglassan, thanks for sharing further links related to the Andrews family.
You're very welcome, Jet2823 ;D
We're always very keen to help, if you have difficulties ;)
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Right! The emails popping up tempted me to come and have a look!
In order (I think).
Added- have a baptism for a John Henry Black 2 Oct.1878 son of John Black and Mary Henry
I think this must be a different John Henry Black, born with the same name, around the same time, but with different parents. I definitely have his parents as being Hugh Lyle Black and Mary Jane Wilson.
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I have a Hugh Black who married Mary Jane Wilson on 25 Oct 1876 in Maghera Presbyterian Church.
High circumstantially Thomas Black, father of Hugh Lyle Black, mother may be a Sarah Lyle. Extensive research I and others have done on the Lyle family of Kilcronaghan (which includes Cloghfin and Tobermore) gives us a Sarah Lyle who had married someone with the surname Black. She would have been born around the turn of the century (1800) meaning generationally she would be rightly placed to be Hugh's grandmother. The Black's were also a Kilcronaghan family.
As we know many middle names come from the maiden name of the father's mother, though also from the mother's side. So as i said it is highly circumstantial however the fit is there.
That was not the only Lyle marriage to a Black however, with a William Lyle of Tobermore marrying a Jane Black. He was a first-cousin of Sarah Lyle.
If the connection is correct, and thats assuming, then Thomas Black's pedigree could go back further like this:
Thomas Black
- Sarah Lyle & ?? Black
--Hugh Lyle (c1759-1853) & Nancy McLean/Ann McNeill [was married twice]
---John Lyle & Mary Kenning, married 1740
----Robert Lyle, b. 1693 & Mary
The tombstone of the last four individuals lies in the old Kilcronaghan parish graveyard.
Edit: Just realised a possible reinforcing link is in Hugh Lyle Black's forename. Sarah Lyle's father as noted above was Hugh. Makes sense.
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Turns out Hugh Lyle Black's [well a Hugh Black of Cloughfin anyways] mother may actually be Sarah, meaning Sarah Lyle is most likely his mother and not grandmother as I suggested.
According to GRONI, a Sarah Black, aged 78 died on 6 September 1874 at Cloughfin, her death was witnessed by a Hugh Black of Cloughfin. Thomas Black died aged 86 on 7 November 1879 at Cloughfin, witnessed by Hugh Black of Cloughfin.
As the Sarah Lyle I have was born around 1800 as her siblings were, her estimated year of birth, going by her death record (knowing full well sometimes they forget their real age), would have been 1796.
This also helps clarify why Hugh was called Hugh Lyle Black, for instead of just his middle name being his mother's maiden name, his forename and middle names both came from Sarah's fathers name.
As such I would amend the above short pedigree too:
Hugh Lyle Black
- Sarah Lyle & Thomas Black
--Hugh Lyle (c1759-1853) & Nancy McLean/Ann McNeill [was married twice]
---John Lyle & Mary Kenning, married 1740
----Robert Lyle, b. 1693 & Mary
Griffith's Valuation also only contains two Thomas Black's in Kilcronaghan, one in Mormeal and the other in Cloughfin. Meaning there can be no doubt this is the Thomas Black father of Hugh. Most likely they are both the same Thomas who simply had lands in both townlands. Looking at the PRONI valuations:
In 1881, Hugh Black officially took on Thomas Black's lease in Cloughfin.
In 1884, Samuel Black took over the Cloughfin lease from Hugh Black.
Between 1864-1883, an Alexander Black took on Thomas Black's lease in Mormeal. No year is pencilled in in the margin however. Though other entries I see for other people in the same dark blue ink are in the early 1880s.
Would safely say both Thomas' from Griffith's ar e the same and Alexander, Samuel and Hugh may all be brothers. Around 1884 must have been when Hugh moved from the area to Ballintemple.
[Edit:] Further confirmation of Thomas Black and Sarah being husband and wife from their headstone at Tobermore Presbyterian Church:
Erected by
Thomas Black
To the memory of his wife
Sarah Black,
Who departed this life 6th Sep.
1874 Aged 78 years.
Stone broken at this point
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Mabus, thank you for this detailed research on the Lyle family! I have never managed to go back further than Thomas and Sarah Lyle and although aware of the gravestone in Tobermore Presbyterian, was not aware of the gravestone at Kilcronaghan. Thanks again!
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Mabus, thank you for this detailed research on the Lyle family! I have never managed to go back further than Thomas and Sarah Lyle and although aware of the gravestone in Tobermore Presbyterian, was not aware of the gravestone at Kilcronaghan. Thanks again!
No problems! As a descendant of the Lyle's with the my own middle name being Lyle, this thread has also been beneficial for me as well for until I saw it yerterday I would never have been able to figure out who the Black was that Sarah Lyle married.
Also in further confirmation, if any was even needed, that the Hugh mentioned as being present at the deaths of both Thomas and Sarah was their son, PRONI has Thomas' will abstract which states: "Letters of Administration of the personal estate of Thomas Black late of Cloughfin County Londonderry Farmer deceased who died 7 November 1879 at same place were granted at Londonderry to Hugh Black of Cloughfin Farmer the Son of said deceased." Just a pity the record itself doesn't exist anymore as it would likely have revealed other children and relations.