RootsChat.Com
General => The Common Room => Topic started by: Tephra on Tuesday 24 August 10 11:09 BST (UK)
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Welcome to this weeks Scavenger Hunt. I must say, you'll have your work cut out on this one, but I know you're up to it.
Good Luck and Good Hunting
Barbara
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I’m hoping to work out what happened to my ancestor Frances Frecknall. She was born in about 1803 in Newark, Nottinghamshire, and baptised there at St. Mary’s on 10 Jan 1803. The only other place she has been found in the parish registers is for the birth of her illegitimate son, Henry Frecknall, in 1824 in Upton by Southwell, Nottinghamshire. She is recorded as a “Single Woman of Upton”. Henry became a tailor and his descendants have been traced well through the census and BMD records. I have also not had any trouble tracing Frances’s ancestors. The problem is Frances herself.
Frances appears on the 1841 census, living with her father, David Frecknall, a tailor of King Street, Southwell. Her surname is recorded as Frecknall.
The really tricky part is her father, David’s will, dated 13 May 1841 (about three weeks before the census was taken). All of David’s children are mentioned, Frances being recorded as “the Widow of the late Charles Johnson alias Charles Steward.” I have been unsuccessful in determining who Charles might have been, can find no birth, marriage or death for Charles (presumably before 1841). I doubt they actually married, but Charles may have been father to Frances’s son Henry.
Keeping in mind that Frances may have been using the surnames Frecknall or Johnson or Steward, the only potential census entry found is in 1861 at the Snenton asylum (Ref: RG9/2459, Folio 77, Page 17):
Frances Johnson, Pauper Lunatic, W, 58, Servant, Notts Newark
I don’t know whether this is Frances or not, but it’s hard to know as she cannot be found in 1851 or any future census.
The final possible snippet of information about Frances is in the baptism of her great granddaughter. Emily Frecknall, daughter of Henry Frecknall (son of Henry Frecknall, son of Frances) was baptized on 25 Mar 1888 at Caunton, Nottinghamshire, and one of her godparents was listed as Frances Frecknall. I have done extensive research into the surname and the only Frances Frecknall that could possibly be alive at that time was Emily’s great grandmother. By this time she would be 85 years old though, and again using the surname Frecknall which she hasn’t used for most of her life? I don’t know whether this is a red herring (Frances might have been a nickname for someone else).
It would be great to be able to find out more about where Frances disappeared to after 1841 – and about her elusive ‘husband’ Charles Johnson alias Steward.
For reference, I have posted here on RootsChat once before about Frances: http://www.rootschat.com/links/089q/
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Looking at your previous thread did you get the death certificate that was found as a possible?
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Hi Alexander, this is a possible death for Frances.
Name: Frances Johnson
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1803
Year of Registration: 1883
Quarter of Registration: Apr-May-Jun
Age at Death: 80
District: Nottingham
County: Nottinghamshire
Volume: 7b
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Looking at the asylum in 1851 ( only a quick look) most patients have a christian name plus just an initial for surname.
The pages are difficult to read and I will look at it in more detail later.
I suppose you realise Johnson is a surname that crops up in the villages between Southwell and Newark, pity we don't know any more about Charles.
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Hi Jaywit...no I haven't got that death certificate. It just seems as though there are several possibilities after 1861. And I've no idea where Frances would be between 1861-1881. And her great granddaughter's baptism record (with a Frances as godparent) made me think that she was still alive in 1888.
I have lots of Johnsons on my tree already, mostly in villages like Laxton, Notts. That has been a completely different brick wall.
I was wondering if anyone knows what the most likely reason for Charles Johnson/Steward's alias would be?
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Here's a suggestion for the alias; Charles was born out of wedlock to Miss Steward or Johnson, but everyone knew he was the son of Mr Johnson or Steward, so he used both names.
By the way, I looked in the Notts newspapers from 1820-1841 on Gale Newspaper Archive for references to Charles Steward or Charles Johnson and also Frecknall generally - nothing there that I could spot.
In those days, if a woman was widowed early in her marriage, she sometimes reverted to her maiden name. Also as she is living with her parents on the 1841 census, the enumerator may just have assumed her surname was the same as theirs. I think the fact that her father's will refers to her as the widow of Charles suggests she had been married to Charles, otherwise why include that phrase?
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Aliases were much more common than you might think, in fact the further you go back the more you find them.
If Frances was alive in 1888 then you should be able to find her death after that. ( Checking under all 3 of the possible surnames)
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Right you know Frances was in Upton in 1824, a single woman, by 1841 her father says she was widowed ( I agree you can't take the 1841 census entry as being 100% accurate).
So assuming she did marry and at either Upton or Southwell have you checked the PRs at both churches to see if there was a marriage for her?
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Looking at the 1841 census for Southwell there are 34 people named Johnson living there, so the Minster looks the obvious choice to look for a marriage.
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ok my initial feelings
Henry was bp. 1824 in Upton at which time Frances was given as 'of Upton' yet she was born Newark (probably December 1802, Bp. was 3 sundays after the birth in usual cases, although nothing is unusual in family history but we work around that pro rata)
Frances was obviously able to provide for Henry because if she applied for Poor Relief she would have been subject to a removal order to Newark, unless there was a settlement order in place.
Thus any marriage betwixt Frances and Charles would have took place after 1824.
incidentally have you seen the actual PR for Henry bp. sometimes the vicar / curate etc. wrote in the margin the reputed father, especially if the town was small and the father well known.
you the have Frances in father, because she is indexed as Frecknall does not necessarily mean she was not Johnson or Steward the enumerator may have asked who is in the household and David may have said Frances my daughter. Where is Henry in 1841?
are there children born after Henry to a Charles Johnson or Steward and Frances ?
We all know that sometimes fathers are invented to avoid the stigma of being illegitimate, David may have carried that pretence on through his will although i have never seen that practice before it undoubtedly happened especially if that is how Frances was known by the executors.
If Frances and Charles were not married AND if Charles was the father who was supporting the child financially? was it David Frances father? or was it Charles ? in which case i suspect some sort of bastardy bond to be in place. I doubt in the early days it was Frances because with a new born baby she would have found it difficult to work unless she worked from home or found someone to care for the babe while she was at work.
up until mid 18thc. a woman was known to consent to sex with a suitor on the promise of a marrige, as common law ruled that a verbal promise should be binding hence the term common law wife. however an engagement that took place in private i.e. no witnesses could be easily denied and the woman deemed of having loose morals. if the woman fell pregnant before she had the chance to drag her lover to the alter the man could escape his obligations by fleeing the parish and if this left the woman reliant on the parish she would be required under oath to identify the father (from 1732) Hardwickes marriage act of 1753 put an end to the confusion between common law and marriage requiring all legally upheld marriages to take place in the presence of a priest, however the practice of sex before marriage was still widespread.
up until 1875 the woman could name anyone as being the reputed father (even the king) and the registrar chose whether or not to put this on the birth certificate after 1875 a written declaration or the man had to be present when registering the birth of a child with the mother who he was not married to. so in all reality there could somewhere be note of the fathers name.
have you checked poor relief records form 1824 to 1841?
the parish authorities feared the old poor law system encouraged bastardy by allowing the unmarried mother to take maintenance money from the father of the child , the poor law amendment act of 1834 put a stop to this and transferred all financial responsibility onto the mother.
have yo checked tithe maps from 1836 - 1850 although the tithes were drawn up in 1836 they still show the other families in the vicinity and who owned the land so maybe there was a Johnson or Steward family nearby to Frances home
. From 1836 Tithe Commissioners were sent forth across the length and breadth of the Country consult with locals and come to an agreement on how much Tithe would be paid. This created a substantial amount of paperwork (TNA IR29) you can search online for the correct ref using IR 29 and the parish name. under Department Series Code the records themselves are generally available in microfilm. These records feature tables including the names of owners/ occupiers the amount of land involved how the land was being cultivated and how much rent charge was payable. maps were made to go along with these documents (IR30) using the same ref as the papers but replacing 29 with 30 so you can view the land your ancestor owned by looking at the map and reading the description at the same time.
if you have Henry through the census is there at any time any member of Johnson or Steward family living with him on census night?
do you know where Frances was working when she fell pregnant? was she a domestic in which case could another member of the staff or the household she was working for have taken advantage of her? it did happen
i think it is worth purchasing the death cert. mentioned earlier to see who the informant was, the age ties in nicely with your Frances.
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This is a tough one
Can't add anything at present
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with regards to proving Charles Steward / Johnson existence it would occur to me first to look for a death between 1824 & 1841
however we do not know how old Charles was even if he fathered Henry it is possible for a male to father children right up to death whereas we know us woman go through the menopause
so now we come to the question why would Charles use Steward or Johnson?
could he be Steward Johnson?
is there a marriage betwixt a Mr or Miss Steward and a Mr or Miss Johnson, could Charles himself be illegitimate?
if Charles was of some social standing you would expect him to hold land and i would suggest looking here to begin with for Johnson or Steward in Nottingham:
land tax records 1780- 1832 The land tax was a national tax levied on landowners from the 1690s. Only one complete set of returns for 1798 survives for England and Wales (in the National Archives), but many returns are available in local record offices. The returns (or 'duplicates' as they are often known) were made for each township and record the names of owners and occupiers and the sum to which they were assessed.
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what was the reason for the move from Newark to Upton?
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re the possible sighting of Frances in the asylum are there other possible Frances that could be?
have you looked here?
1846-1957 Lunatics / Asylum Records
Early in the 19thc a Select Committee of the House of Commons recommended that county asylums be created to house and care for both pauper and criminal lunatics and thus keep them out of gaols and workhouses. Under the County Asylum Act 1808, the first such institution opened in 1811 in Nottingham. Legislation amendments were passed in 1811, 1815 & 1819 to improve administration of the asylums. All counties were required to construct asylums, although many failed to do so. TNA record class MH94 entitled Patients Admission Registers , lists from 1846-1957 all persons admitted to the county asylums, there is one alphabetical index of surnames for each year (by the first letter of surname only) for the whole of England and Wales. The registers also give the name of the asylum with date of admission and discharge or death in the asylum. Up until 1884 each register covers more than one year. Having located a person in the index the patients records (if they survive) should be found in the in the appropriate county or borough record office.
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Toni Upton is virtually Southwell, in fact the postal address for Southwell workhouse is Upton.
Why Frances's father would move from Newark to Southwell?
In the first half of the 19th century Southwell was an up and coming place, always a small town which attracted people with money. As a tailor he would have probably a better chance of making a go of his business.
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Many thanks to everyone for their comments, especially Jaywit & Toni
To answer some of the questions (as best I can :) ):
The baptism entry for Henry (1824) unfortunately gave no details of the father.
Henry (Frances’s son) was an apprentice tailor in Norwell (near Southwell) in 1841. He was the only of the grandchildren of Frances’s father who was given a special mention in his will – so he probably took after his grandfather.
I could find no other children of Frances/Frances & Charles.
I have looked for bastardy bonds, etc. by emailing the Nottingham archives. They were very kind and did a check under the surnames Johnson, Steward and Frecknall for me, without finding anything. That makes me think that Charles (the father?) stuck around to support the child – and therefore there was no need to go to the parish for support. I will try to make another search of those records in case something was missed.
Where/how would I check poor relief/tithe/land tax records? At Nottingham? I am on holiday in the UK at the moment and am hoping to get to the Nottingham archives in a week or two.
I have tried all the routes for finding a burial of Charles – none that fit in the Upton or Southwell registers. Also I’ve tried looking for a Steward-Johnson marriage with no success. The surname Steward (that spelling) seems relatively uncommon in Notts at the time (at least compared to Johnson).
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I’m not sure why Frances’s moved from Newark to Upton. I think it may have been her father’s job…he was a tailor and she seemed to move around a lot in her youth. Her eldest siblings were born in Caunton, Notts, the next few in Newark, then one in Southwell, one in Aston on Trent, Derbyshire, and the last back in Newark. At some point between 1808 and 1841 her father & family moved to Southwell. I’m wondering whether Frances’s mother Ann Richardson may have been from Southwell, but this has been an equally big brick wall. Unfortunately I have not been able to find David in any trade directories. I was wondering whether Frances might have been at the Southwell workhouse – hence the reason why she is in the Upton registers, but I believe most workhouse events took place at the Minster.
I’ll put on my list to check the asylum records. It turns out another relative on a different branch ended up there, so I have a reason to take a good look through them.
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have you seen the actual entry for the bp. of Henry or just a transcription?
maybe Henry was specially mentioned in Davids will because a) he was the eldest grandchild or b) the other grandchildren had fathers to provide for them and Henry didnt or c) HEnry lived with David and learned his trade and the other grandchildren didn't.
re bastardy bonds if Charles didnt support Henry, maybe he wasnt his or maybe Frances was financially in the position not to apply for maintenance i.e. David supported them?
re landowners records and tithe maps i am not sure what is held directly at Nottingham and what is held at The National Archives maybe it would be best to contact Nottingham RO and ask them, you want e records and tithe covering Upton
David may not appear in the trade directories as i think you had to pay for an advert but he may appear in the street directories have you tried these?
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Now this is interesting.
The big workhouse at Southwell/Upton wasn't built until the 1830's before that there was a much smaller building in Southwell and then I found this on the Workhouses website.
The Thurgarton Hundred Incorporation workhouse at Upton opened in December 1824. The new building cost £6,596 to construct and was much larger than the one at Southwell, accommodating up to 158 inmates. Its plan was also later published in The Anti-pauper System.
The Thurgaton Hundred covered villages surrounding Southwell but not Southwell itself.
Have you actually seen the PR for Henry's baptism?
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Did Frances work? what did she do where did she work?
she was of Upton in 1824 and of Newark in 1803 but where was she between those times and what was she doing?
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bit earlier
http://homepages.nildram.co.uk/~jimella/upton01.htm
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Upton:
http://www.visionofbritain.org.uk/place/place_page.jsp?p_id=7803
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Upton,_Newark_and_Sherwood
http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/eng/NTT/Upton/index.html
http://www.nottshistory.org.uk/articles/brownsarticles/uptonandhockerton.htm
http://members.bex.net/jtcullen515/Upton.htm
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Regarding the godparent Frances Frecknall
There is a Frances Frecknall aged 6 in the 1871 Census
RG10-3459 Folio 82 Page 40
She is daughter of Frederick Frecknall and Ellen in Worksop
By 1888 she would have been 16 - maybe old enough?
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p.s. What about the marriage of a Frances Frecknall to John Overing on 30 Jun 1830 at Newark?
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was Frances ever known as anything else?
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Stonechat Frances is in 1841 indexed as Frecknall i wonder if there are children born to that marriage you found
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This Frances is at home in Newark with John and their children in 1841 and 1851. I can't spot her death but John has a new wife, Elizabeth in 1861 and 1871.
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charles steward johnson may not have been from nottingham there are some steward / johnson marriages in London and in Yarmouth
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I have checked the original entry (on microfiche at Nottingham) for Henry's baptism. Unfortunately no further information. I looked for Charles's burial there, but found no Johnsons or Stewards. Also didn't spot anything at the Minster - though a more thorough search needs to be taken.
As for where/for who Frances worked, I have no idea. I know nothing of Frances between 1803 and 1841, except her son's baptism in 1824.
The Frances Frecknall who married John Overing was actually the daughter of Thomas Fricknall & his wife Sarah I think (I can't remember Thomas's wife's name off the top of my head).
As for the godparent Frances Frecknall, the Frances daughter of Frederick & Ellen is no close relation - perhaps fifth/sixth cousin...something like that. I have started a bit of a one name study for the Frecknalls and can't find any other possibilities - all the Fanny's in the family had died by 1886.
Toni, you mention street directories - where are they kept, what are they?
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directories – trade – street commercial
Historicaldirectories.org or County RO
1792-1950’s though not every year and not every are was covered in all directories
Whites
Pigots
Post Office
Kellys
Morris
i am sure there are others i havent mentioned
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I have checked all the directories on that site, but couldn't find David. I'm not sure whether Southwell was a big enough place to have a street directory.
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Do you have Henry's marriage certificate? If so who were the witness? they may just give a clue to his mother.
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Another thought On 1841 neither Frances or her sister Sarah are shown as working, so presumably their father was earning enough to keep them.
Have you followed Sarah through later years?
Also who were the parents of Mary who was living with them?
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Who were the parents of the 3 Frecknell boys living in Worksop with Isaac and Lyddia Radford in 1851, the youngest one says born Southwell c1844?
HO107; Piece: 2122; Folio: 154; Page: 15;
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Looking at Frances Johnson in the asylum in 1861 whatever was written in the marital status column has been crossed through, maybe they were unsure of her marital status.
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Do you have Henry's marriage certificate? If so who were the witness? they may just give a clue to his mother.
Norwell St. Laurence PR:
No.: 48
Date: March 9th 1846
Names: Henry Fricknell & Sarah Wilson
Ages: Of full age & Of full age
Condition: Bachelor & Spinster
Profession: Tailor & Dressmaker
Residence: Norwell & Norwell
Fathers' Names: --- & Thomas Wilson
Fathers' Professions: --- & Farmer
Witnesses: Elizabeth Wilson, Barnabas Williamson
I've no clue who Barnabas Williamson was, but I think that Elizabeth Wilson was Sarah's mother.
Another thought On 1841 neither Frances or her sister Sarah are shown as working, so presumably their father was earning enough to keep them.
Have you followed Sarah through later years?
Also who were the parents of Mary who was living with them?
Mary was the illegitimate daughter of Sarah. Sarah also had another daughter Ann who was born in 1827 and died in 1828. Later on Sarah married William Shipley in 1853 at Nottingham St. Mary. She died in 1868.
Who were the parents of the 3 Frecknell boys living in Worksop with Isaac and Lyddia Radford in 1851, the youngest one says born Southwell c1844?
HO107; Piece: 2122; Folio: 154; Page: 15;
These three children were the sons of William Merrills Frecknall and Elizabeth Nelson. They were of a branch of Frecknalls that came from the North Leverton/Retford/Worksop areas. They are distantly related to Frances - though I haven't been able to work out the exact relationship. It may be a coincidence that they both ended up in Southwell.
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If you look on google at upton Southwell you can see a workhouse listed. I went in for a closer look and there is a fantastic shot of the workhouse.
I found this on it is near Upton but Upton Retford. It is the only Frances who is listed as a widow that jumped out at me.
1851 census RG number: HO107 Piece: 2122 Folio: 280 Page: 10
Address: Mill Cottage, Carlton In Lindrick
County: Nottinghamshire
JOHNSON, Fanny Mother Widow F 50 1801 Dary Maid Rampton
Nottinghamshire
JOHNSON, Sarah Daughter F 15 1836 Scholar Carlton
Nottinghamshire
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If Sarah married after the death of both of her parents who were the witnesses at her marriage?
I'll look for the witnesses of Henry's marriage later.
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Here's Sarah's marriage information:
Nottingham St. Mary:
Date: 5 Jan 1853
Names: William Shipley & Sarah Frecknall
Ages: Full age & Full age
Condition: Widower & Spinster
Profession: Bricklayer & ---
Residence: Holland Street & Holland Street
Fathers' Names: William Shipley & David Frecknall
Fathers' Professions: Cordwainer Dec & Tailor Dec
Signed: William Shipley, Sarah Frecknall X her mark
Witnesses: Thomas Porter X his mark, Anne Porter X her mark
Not sure if/how the Porters are related.
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I just noticed that Henry (Frances's son) named his first son Henry, and his second one Charles. Third son named Thomas after his wife's father. Charles is a name that hadn't been used in the family before, so maybe it could indicate that this was Henry's father's name. Fourth son who died in infancy was called William (if they were being systematic about naming, this could be after his wife's grandfather).
I know it's not proof but it could be a clue.
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I have checked all the directories on that site, but couldn't find David. I'm not sure whether Southwell was a big enough place to have a street directory.
Southwell would have come under the biggest nearest town and not all directories are on historical directories site, they are some held at the County RO
re the workhouse, have you looked at workhouse.org?
what do you think of Charles Steward Johnson coming from elsewhere than Nottingham? if only we can find a record of one anywhere
did you say you had seen the actual entry of Henry christening in the parish register or just a transcription?
i still think you should order yourself a copy of the Frances Johnson death found in your other thread if only to rule her out.
You say Frances was also known as Fanny, so that gives another avenue to look for her.
Barnabas Williamson is herein 1841
HO107; 866; : 13; 7; 8;
and 1851
HO107; 2135; 309; 12;
1861
RG9; 2474; 84; : 21;
1871
RG10; : 3537; 7; 7;
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Toni Thanks for Barnabas Williamson. I had to go out and buy food ;D ;D
I notice in 1841 Barnabas is living next door to a Henry Johnson age 65.
I do think it's odd Frances wasn't a witness at either Henry or Sarah's marriages.
It does suggest to me she wasn't around, either dead, left the area or perhaps in the asylum.
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I have found the Porters in 1851.
HO107; Piece: 2132; Folio: 61; Page: 16;
Interestingly they have a Mary Ann Freaknells age 18 born Nottinham, servant as a visitor.
Sarah's daughter?
Thomas is 56 Ann 36 so a second marriage for him by the look of it..
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Barnabas seems to be a neighbour
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does Davids will describe Charles occupation?
Jaywit do you think Charles could be from elsewhere other than Nottingham i found Steward & Johnson marriages before
so he coyuld have been born Steward and his mother married a Johnson thus making him Charles Steward or Johnson
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Norwell was and is a small village so everyone would know everyone else.
Why did Henry settle there?
I wondered if there was a family connection, then when I saw that Henry Johnson I hoped I might be on to something.
I have found what I think is Henry's marriage to Mary Smalley in 1799 in North Muskham and the baptism of their first 3 children there.
There are in 1851 possible grown up Johnson children living in Norwell who say born Bathley.
Bathley doesn't have a church it is part of North Muskham parish so that's what made me think the marriage was correct.
I can't see the baptism of the later children, they could have easily taken them elsewhere to be baptised. Caunton for instance is no futher away from Bathley than North Muskham is and those PRs aren't online.
So nothing definate yet.
I have been looking for Thomas Porter's marriage I haven't checked Free BMD yet but I suspect it was before 1837 and St Marys Nottingham aren't online for that period.
So again at the moment no proof the witnesses were related.
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Thanks toni & jaywit. Sorry it's taken me so long to reply, I've had limited internet access the past few days.
Next week I will visit the Nottingham Archives, and I will check some of the parish registers, as well as the Sneinton asylum records, to see if I can find any more info about the Frances Johnson there in 1861.
I will order that death certificate of Frances Johnson if my search at the archives is not fruitful.
Thanks,
Alexander
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It's that time again folks and here's this weeks Scavenger Hunt....... I'm hoping it will be easy, but I think it might take a while to puzzle this one out :-\
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,479575.0.html
Good Luck and Good Hunting
Barbara
As usual, this Hunt will remain open for any further information which may come in.
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Well, it’s nearly two years since this scavenger hunt, and I’m still hunting for Frances Johnson. I just thought I’d update this thread with info I’ve found –
The Frances Johnson who died in 1883 (mentioned in the first reply) was not my Frances. :( She died 29 May 1883 in the Nottingham Union Workhouse. Tracing her back through the censuses, her husband was Thomas Johnson (d.1877, Nottingham) and they lived variously at Coventry and West Ham before moving to Nottingham. That Frances was actually born Frances Burton in Bethnal Green, London in 1803. Anyway, not my Frances.
There is still a decent chance that this is my Frances in the 1861 census:
1861 census: County Pauper Lunatic Asylum, Snenton, Nottinghamshire (RG9/2459, f 77, p 17)
Frances Johnson, Pauper Lunatic, W, 58, Servant, Notts Newark
I checked the Sneinton Asylum Medical Superintendents book, but there was no mention of Frances. I don’t think any other records of the asylum have survived.
If anyone has any bright ideas I would still very much like to hear them. :D
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It's a decade on since the original post, and I'm still searching for Frances. Honestly until recently I was not much further on despite a number of attempts. I recently made a little breakthrough which I thought I'd share for anyone interested.
At the beginning there was the possible Frances Johnson of the right age and birth place recorded on the 1861 census in Sneinton Asylum.
I did recently have chance to check the Sneinton Asylum admission index (record only opened to the public last year as it was closed for 100 years, and the last entry was in 1919).
This record showed that Frances Johnson was admitted to Sneinton Asylum on 26 Nov 1841. Noted as a widow and age 38 at admission. The index notes that she died on 19 Nov 1863.
Now, finding other record of this death record was a struggle, as there were no Frances Johnsons in the GRO index who died in Dec quarter 1863 of the right age or place.
Looking in burial records I did come across this burial at Nottingham St Mary's, which seems about the right date:
23 Nov 1863, Frances Sharp, age 60, of Asylum
There is a Frances Sharpe in the GRO death index which ties with this burial. I just ordered this death certificate to see if it contains any more useful information.
On the 1851 census, there is a "Frances S." (no surname given), who was a widow, age 48, born Upton.
I suspect Frances Sharp and Frances Johnson are the same person. My Frances did have a son born in 1824 in Upton, Notts, which might explain why that 1851 census entry showed Upton as her birthplace.
The question is whether I could have found my Frances at long last, or whether I have been barking up the wrong tree for so many years. The other question, if this is the right Frances, why using the surname Johnson sometimes and Sharpe others?
I'll post the death certificate info when I receive it.
Alexander
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My thoughts are that when the Frances Johnson was admitted to the asylum presumably her mental health was such that any information she gave was perhaps not accurate.
In fact she may not have been capable of giving any reliable information and some other person gave the information and it would be only what they thought was correct.
Why Sharpe? Who knows, at some point Frances may have decided her name was Sharpe again who knows what her mental state was.
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Just looking at Southwell in 1841 David Frecknell was living on King Street, that is still the main shopping street in Southwell and the majority of the houses and shops on there would have been built before 1841, ( Look on street view ) so my guess he was living above the shop.
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Hi Jaywit, thanks for looking.
David lived at Waterloo Yard just off King Street, this is where he died in 1845 and his wife Ann died in 1846.
I think that David and the family moved from Newark to Southwell around 1839. Although she was born in Eastwood, Ann's family lived in Southwell from the 1770s. Ann's brother Henry Richardson died in early 1841 (just before the census) at Waterloo Yard, Southwell. According to his will, dated 1839, David and Ann were "late of Newark upon Trent", suggesting it wasn't long since they moved. Ann was sole beneficiary in her brother's will, as his only surviving close relative, so it's likely that they moved into Henry's property in Southwell around the time of his death.
Alexander
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Waterloo Yard is still there.
I hope you can see Google street view I think this is Waterloo Yard at the side of Aspire hairdressers.
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@53.0789276,-0.9538882,3a,75y,343.54h,84.8t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sShPXRRq4nRVbsopnmDtpzw!2e0!7i16384!8i8192
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Waterloo Yard is still there, it's a little further down next to the Boots, there is a sign still:
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@53.0786803,-0.9544059,3a,75y,276.46h,81.04t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s61gMNb3qziiZYJK11qe_Sg!2e0!7i16384!8i8192
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I just thought I was wrong, ( whilst I was watering the garden ) but I couldn't work out where it was exactly, I wondered if it was the path at the side of the library, but again I was wrong.
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Just looking at land tithe records I found this entry in Southwell in May 1841 (a few months after Henry Richardson's death). This would confirm that David and family moved into Henry's property.
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On the corresponding map it looks like those plots (78 and 79) tie with the current location of Waterloo Yard.
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Received the death certificate for Frances Sharpe today:
19 Nov 1863, Sneinton Asylum, Sneinton
Frances Sharpe, female, age 60 years, rank or profession blank
Cause of death Ovarian tumor, certified
Registered by Mary Jane Jackson, Present at the death, of Lunatic Asylum, Sneinton, 19 Nov 1863
This confirms that Frances Johnson and Frances Sharpe are the same person.
Unfortunately there are no further details to confirm whether or not this is the Frances I am looking for.
Any ideas on where to proceed from here?
Alexander
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Was the death cert the only time Sharpe was mentioned? I can't remember if you have said.
If it was it could be a mistake.
Mary Jane Jackson was a nurse at the asylum on the 1861 census.
If so she may not have been taking as much notice as a relative would when registering a death and the incorrect name could have been entered without her noticing, or she could have given the wrong surname.
Apart from that I can't think of anything else.
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Hi jaywit,
The burial was registered as Sharp. On the 1851 census Frances is shown as "Frances S.", probably for Sharpe although at one time I thought it may be for Steward. The 1861 census she is back as Frances Johnson.
It's all a bit of a puzzle.
My Frances had a number of aunts/sisters who died relatively young in their 40s-60s. I have ordered a couple of their death certificates just now to see what their cause of death is. A bit clutching at straws, but if they also died of ovarian cancer that could suggest/support a family link.
Alexander
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So sometime between 1841 and 1851 Frances changes her surname.
I don't think you will ever find out why she did that.
It is possible there is an hereditary cancer but if you think about it there wouldn't have been any treatment so they would have been many cancer deaths that would today have been treatable..
There is an off chance that if you look back at parish records for burials you may be lucky and find a record where the cause of death would have been recorded, some parishes did that.