RootsChat.Com
England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Dorset => Topic started by: KT on Wednesday 25 August 10 03:21 BST (UK)
-
Christine O'Gorman in photos by father, Mervyn O'Gorman. Want to find what happened to her. I've asked every online place with the photos but no-one knows anything. Did she have siblings? Did she marry? ....
Mervyn O'Gorman died 1958 at Brighton.
Dr. Mervyn Archdall Nott Crawford & wife Sophia Busk, our common ancestor.
Wondered if someone about Lulworth Cove might know something. I saw it on google satelllite, It's a beautiful ClamShell Cove :D, wish I could come see it, but am in California ;D.
Regards, Katie
-
I will ask the Lulworth History Society.
-
Are these the photos? If so, they are stunning - as is Lulworth Cove. Know it well.
This seems a very well researched family, and you probably have lods of info on them - but for other rootschatters looking in:
http://books.google.ie/books?id=iYOfTy3YJk0C&pg=PA52&lpg=PA52&dq=Dr.+Mervyn+Archdall+Nott+Crawford&source=bl&ots=BJrNJz-QbX&sig=RFPB9tbZ5SLiDt5KuKdzgz0kZRU&hl=en&ei=No-bTLeIMMyQjAfRu9juCQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=3&ved=0CBwQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&q&f=false
What are her dates? When did she go missing, who was her mother - any info useful. Was she at a boarding school, appear in any census, known addresses?
-
(http://img1.fantasticfiction.co.uk/images/n45/n226057.jpg)
cover for Elizabeth Knox's Billie's Kiss
i bought it because the photo was a drop down from me - but was pleasantly surprised that it was
a good read too.
-
Perhaps! If so hands up, 1 am gullible. Just idly scanning throught the times archive, found no mention of a Christina in her fathers many obituries....no mention of family, even though prior to his death he hosted a very large society wedding for a young relative - no Christina amongst the guests either.....no mention of family, just one obit referring to "a very dear companion" who lived with him in his last years. No name or gender? From memory I think he was about 85.
As I said, in earlier post, full details needed. And if this is a joke, well ........
But if its not, there are some leads....
PM :-[
-
"Billie's Kiss" was set in Scotland. Kissack and Skilling to be precise.
the use of this place for a cover photo was..... odd? a cheap option?
who knows!
-
Hello Everyone,
YES, the 'Retronaut' photo site. I sent him an email awhile ago asking. He was nice to answer with no information but would like to hear if I find any.
Google YES, won't let me see these pages, but the same information is in other books Google will let me see. If yours go back far enough to show -
Rev. Evans at Rostrevor was my 3rd Greatgrandfather, son of Elizabeth Scriven & John Evans.
The novels interesting - (reading addict ) - see if I can find a copy over here :D
Lovely to see you all visiting about this, Who knows where a new lead may come from. I too got a copy of Mervyns life & obit but as you agree, not the family info that helps find anyone.
Hope your summer's still going strong over there, ;D Katie
-
Could you answer the following, as I see you have been trying to solve this problem for some time in other posts on Rootschat:
1. When did you first see these photos?
2. How do you know that they are taken by Mervyn O'Gorman?
3. What documentary evidents exists for Christina o'Gorman, ie birth/paptism certificate?
These are questions which need a response, as there is no mention of a daughter in his obituaries, only a long term companion. PM
-
I probably 1st saw them a couple of years ago searching online about Mervyn. Several sites mention or show them. I've emailed all, museums - gallery's - individuals - blogs, but no further info.
All the sites credit him as the photographer and girl as his daughter. His death? bio credits him for being a well known photograher. I haven't seen any documents for her.
Katie
-
I too have been looking at this.
As already mentioned the 1911 and 1901 census for Mervyn and his wife show no children, more importantly the 1911 which obliged couples to record children born alive and still living, shows zero for both.
I feel that their connections to Ireland would be loose as the family originally arrived in the mid 1700s.
I have discovered that Mervyn had an older full brother and at least 3 half brothers, one of his half brothers Francis Edmund OGorman had 2 daughters, Winifred born 1892 and Gillian born 1897, the girls are home educated with a governess - the beach picnic certainly looks like a governess with 2 girls although they seem a little young for the birthdates of Winifred and Gillian. Plus of course they are not called Christina!
I'm currently tracing Mervyn's other siblings and then of course there will be his wife's siblings.
Regards
Aziliz
-
The photographs in question are glorious, they have gone viral too. Here they are on mashable:
http://mashable.com/2015/04/23/autochrome-photos-ogorman/#:eyJzIjoiZiIsImkiOiJfZWkzN2RuMnNsYWhubWgzMiJ9
"Mervyn O'Gorman was 42 when he took these pictures of his daughter, Christina O'Gorman at Lulworth Cove, in the English county of Dorset. He photographed Christina wearing a red swimming costume and red cloak, a colour particularly suited to the early color Autochrome process.
Autochrome was one of the first colour photo technologies, which used glass plates coated in potato starches to filter pictures with dye.
To his friends, Mervyn O'Gorman was "O.G." He had qualified as an electrical engineer and worked for cabling companies, and in 1909 he became superintendent of the Royal Balloon Factory, later the Royal Aircraft Factory. He was an enthusiastic early motorist, and published O'Gorman's Motoring Pocket Book in 1904.
Yet O'Gorman's hobby was photography. He took these images in 1913.
Mervyn died in March 1958 as a widower; his wife Florence had died 27 years earlier in 1931. As to Christina's life, there are no recorded details.
In 1897 O’Gorman had married Florence Rasch, who is sitting between their two daughters. O’Gorman’s camera case can be seen close by"
Perhaps they are his neices?
Maybe the name 'Christina' is a fake one used on the photographs when showing them in an exhibition (which his wikipedia page said he took part in). Perhaps showing the swim suits were controversial back then. You would have to check all his brothers photograph albums.
Also if the nieces were supposed to be in their 20's in 1913 (perhaps he took them earlier than he has been given credit for) and the woman is not Florence but a governess. Like Aliz suggests.
#art is subjective after all ;)
-
I've been following this with interest. I note there's a Christina Mary O'Gorman on the 1939 electoral register in the South Western Hospital, Lambeth, London
-
He was also a partner in the firm of O'Gorman & Cozens-Hardy Consulting Engineers
after 12 Feb 1900 Address - 82, Victoria-street, Westminster.
-
I replied to this a little before you all yesterday on an older thread here:
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=478075.9
...but I figure that since this thread is active, I should copy the reply here too. Forum member aghadowey pointed out in that thread that:
There's a Christina O'Gorman in 1911 Irish census age 13-
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Waterford/Dungarvan_No__1_Urban/St__Mary_Street/663177/
parents are James and Mary O'Gorman and they have 11 children so it's possible that some of the children would have gone to stay with relatives
In 1901 the family are here with lots of other relatives-
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Waterford/Dungarvan_No__1/St__Mary_s_Street/1770907/
To which I replied:
I'm no genealogist -- not even a hobbyist -- but I spotted something that appeared to my uneducated eyes to fit your story well, so I'm sharing it.
aghadowey pointed out that there was a Christina O'Gorman in the 1911 Irish census, aged 13. That would put her date of birth around 1898.
Googling "Christina O'Gorman" and "1898" turns up the following page:
http://www.jeffseeley.org/familytrees/radmore/pafg04.htm
From which I'm pulling the excerpt below, in case the page goes offline:
44. Robert Cecil Radmore (Samuel Ernest , Samuel , John ) was born on Sep 13 1895 in Hackney, County London, England. He died on Jan 08 1969 in New York, USA.
Robert married Mary Christina O'Gorman in 1925 in Elham District, County Kent, England. Mary was born about 1898 in Ireland. She died on Aug 04 1962 in New York, USA.
They had the following children:
+ 65 M i Peter Michael Radmore
66 F ii Living
Living married John D. Foster. John was born on Oct 02 1914 in Tarboro, Edgecombe County, North Carolina, USA. He died on Jul 12 2002 in Chicago, Cook County, Illinois, USA.
Could it be that Christina was actually her middle name, and that her given name was Mary?
...to which I'll add that libertyellisfoundation.org has a Robert C. Radmore arriving from England in 1932 at the age of 36 on the Aquitania. That age is what you'd expect from his date of birth if he arrived pre-September 1932. An Ireland-born Mary Christina Radmore, meanwhile, arrives on the Olympic the same year, aged 34 (which again fits with an 1898 DOB).
And finally a Peter Michael Radmore, aged 4 (matching the age of their son at the time) also arrives in 1932, but on the Laconia. There are no other Radmores on the ship, but there are a Richard and Catherine O'Gorman, both Irish-born and aged 30 and 32 respectively. Peter Radmore was born in the USA (New York, specifically, matching the Liberty Ellis info), and died five years ago in Maine according to the info at jeffseeley.org.
There are a fair few strands there which would seem reasonable to fit together. There's a close match for the name that's apparently attached to these images; she's born in Ireland the same year as aghadowey suggested; her age would seem to fit with the tentative date of the photos; she married in Kent, only a few hours away from where the photos were taken; she then moved to the USA where a family was started (which we know at least some family members did at some point, as that matches original poster and relative Katie's current country).
Could the mysterious Christina have been a relative of Mervyn's born in Ireland, married in the UK, and then traveling back and forth between the UK and the US for a few years (including the trip on which her son was born), then the family finally moved there -- first the father, then the mother, and then finally the son perhaps traveling with relatives of his mother who also emigrated?
Of course, this could all be coincidence -- I'm the first to admit I'm a rank amateur who's out of my depth here -- but I'd love to see somebody with more experience chase these threads down.
-
I made several additions to the above post, but then hit its length limit, so here they are separately:
EDIT: And one more update from me: familysearch.org has several records suggesting a Robert Cecil Radmore, born 13 September 1895 in Dalston, Hackney, London, and still living there at the age of 16 in 1911. During World War I, it has him serving in the Honourable Artillery Company, 4085 Regiment, 1st Reserve, 2nd Battalion in 1915, and registering for the draft in 1942, now in New York City.
Separately, there are records for a Robert Radmore (born England), married to Mary (born Ireland) and with son Peter (born New York), listing Robert and Mary as emigrated to the US in 1926, and the whole family as resident in Manhattan (Districts 0501-0750) in 1930, then with a six year old daughter Mary (also born New York) and living in Assembly District 14, Manhattan in 1940.
EDIT 2: Aha -- and going back to libertyellisfoundation.org, there's record of a Robert C P and Mary C Radmore arriving in the USA on the Ascania in 1926...
EDIT 3: And going back to jeffseeley.org, I note that he has Robert Radmore and Mary Gorman as having two children, Peter and an unnamed female child who married a John D. Foster, deceased 2002 in Chicago. The Chicago Tribune has a John D. Foster, married around 1966 to Adrian Radmore Foster:
http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2002-07-15/news/0207150017_1_mr-foster-montgomery-ward-longtime-wards
Slightly curious, but there are several other records of a Mrs. Adrian Radmore Foster in Chicago, so it's most likely correct. Adrian can, it seems, also be a girl's name (not just Adrienne, Adrianne, or Adriana); perhaps she was Mary Adrian Radmore, and goes by her middle name as it seems her mother did? There are several records on Google of a Mary Adrian Foster.
EDIT 4: And returning to familysearch.org, there's a Mary Adrian Radmore arriving in New York in 1953, on the Sadena.
EDIT 5: I'm familiar with the other ship names above, but had never heard of the Sadena, so I went back to the Liberty Ellis Foundation and looked at the manifest. There was indeed a Mary Adrian Radmore listed on board, but it wasn't a ship -- it was a plane. Specifically, it was TWA Flight 953 from Shannon, Ireland to New York, arriving 10:13AM on September 2nd, 1953 in New York.
That flight, incidentally, was on N6020C, a Lockheed Constellation L-749A that was just 2.5 years old at the time, and a little under 14 years later would serve TWA's very last passenger-carrying Constellation flight in April or May 1967. Why they have her listed as Sadena I don't know; her name was actually Star of Kentucky. That exact plane can be seen in the French-language film Escale a Orly (http://www.impdb.org/index.php?title=Escale_%C3%A0_Orly (http://www.impdb.org/index.php?title=Escale_%C3%A0_Orly)), and there are lots of photos of her on the web.
-
I too have been wondering about this girl in the photo
She is the spitting image of my ex wife when she was about 18
Anyway I'm sadly coming to the conclusion that we may never know the true identity. I doubt that Melvyn O'Gorman never had any children. I base this conclusion on the following points.
1 His wife was in her 40's when they married and was considerably older than him.
2 He was also considered to be a dandy which I think was slang in its day for saying he was gay.
3 His wife in her will left the entire state to her husband which was not a trivial sum of money if they had children surely she would of left something for them
4 There is no mention of any children in a consensus in 1901 and 1911
6 No mention of any children in either obituaries in the Times news paper for either Melvyn or Florence his wife
The text accompanying the pictures don't seem to fit with know facts. On picture shows three individuals sitting on a beach titled as O'Gormans wife Florence and his two kids. Yet at the time 1913 Florence would be over 50 years old and there no way that any of the individuals would be 50 years old.
Last but not least these pictures are not any random holiday pictures and are highly staged. A considerable amount of work went into the pictures and the fact that Christina is wearing red is no accident. I wouldn't be totally shocked that Christina could be a model who was hand picked for a important series of shots with the full knowledge that he would exhibit these pictures.
There is also a possibility that Christina is a family member. Melvyn had a full sister Edith Seibe Gorman maybe she had a daughter
Also there another problem arises with the name O'Gorman because Melvyn was born Gorman and changed his name to O'gorman latter on on life. I have no idea as of when this happened. In the unlikely event he did have a child, it could be Christina Gorman.
-
His wife in her will left the entire state to her husband
Has anyone checked Mervyn O'Gorman's will?
-
The best cause of action is to contact the www.nationalmediamuseum.org.uk which holds the prints or contact the press officer phil.oates@nationalmediamuseum.org.uk and ask what proof or evidence they have that indicates that Christina is his daughter. Have they just assumed its his daughter or is there some evidence such his handwriting stating its his daughter. Is there anything written on the back or notes or attached documentation
Regards Mako
-
I am very interested to know if you turned up anything regarding Christina O'Gorman?
-
Evidently, others have niggling doubts about these photographs. I'm not saying that the whole series is fake by any means, but something is 'off'. My first reaction on seeing them, was that 'Christina' was c2013 not 1913. It's like Hollywood 20th Century period films, all actors looked and sounded like 20th Century people whatever the costumes, whatever the period.
I have looked up the relevant bathing costumes and whether you can buy modern copies of them, you can.
Most worrying of all, Google image search for Christine O' Gorman brings up lots of images, (including the autochromes of course), but there are several of a young woman cNow that looks suspiciously like the girl 'Christina'.
Thrown somes squibs in the air, but will have to leave it to the experts to pin this one down. How about the provenance of the autochromes?
-
Thrown some squibs in the air
Oddly enough there was a Christina Squibb in East Lulworth village but she would have been around 30 in 1913 so probably not a likely candidate.
-
Thrown some squibs in the air
Oddly enough there was a Christina Squibb in East Lulworth village but she would have been around 30 in 1913 so probably not a likely candidate.
Tee Hee. I spent some time looking at photographs from the period including autochromes which were very superior. Perhaps the process was expensive, but colour photography only took off in the mid 30's. American Kodak, German Agfa. 'The future belongs to colour photography'.... Adolf Hitler ::)
-
The following individual's attended Mervyn O'Gorman memorial service
A memorial scrvice for Lieutitnant- Colonrel Mervyn O'Gorman was held yester- day In the chapel of thi Royal Hospital, Chelsea. The RevbtC.a W. H. Story, C.F. officiated. Among those present were:- Lord and Lady Sempill. Lord Mackey. Paissla Lady Glenconner Lord Brabazon of Tara. the Downger Lady S ,aythlin. the Ho.n. Lady Norman. Sir John and Lady Pagcm. Grace Lady Paget. Sir Frederitk Whyetc sir GuY Harrison. Sir Stephen Tallents. Lady (Lancelot) Haure. Sir Henry Ticard. Sir Geoffrey de Havilland. Sir Fiennes Barrett.Lennard. Lady Fischer Williams. Sir Frank NLos i, Hon Sr arold Ronhee Co. Mis Camr Copland. Dr. G W H. Gardner (Director. Royal Air. tlaCt Establishmen . ,arborouah. also e MresentnK. tc Minister of Supply),with Mr. F. N. EdneCy. his Honour La. C. ToastC. G. DcaC. F. Parry (secretary. The Athenaeum). Mkr. M.S V. Osmnond (representing Cooncil for the Mres.eG ationof Rural Enaland). Mr. silfrid Andews(chirmn. Oyal Automobile Club) trith Mr. Deem Hacfort (drector. Associate Section) and Lieoenat.Coone T.B. Browne. Licutcnant-Colonel Cecil LEsranr MOlormne. Mr. W. Reeve Wallace Mr. Sydney atehea. Mioess F. Barssood (RoYal Aeronautica Society). MisskI. Walladce Mr. Antony Horoby. Mr. Michael orehy.n MissDiana Hamby Miss K. Acland. Mr.N. . Prcial r.Claude Lucas. 'Mis Joan Lucas. Dr. . E Spelmna.Mr. Gerald Henderson. Mms. E. Gate. Cptai C.0. Dan.Mr. Kevin FitzGcrald. Mrs. F. urry. rs.G. aa. Mr. Geoffrey Barker. Mr1s. EdadWk.Mrs.P. Fadr. r W. F. Short. fslr andMs a Lambce.M.L F. Dyer. and Mer. T. S. Mrt. Edmund O'Gorman. Mr. John O'Gorman. Mr. Thomas O'Gorman. Professor Edward Hindle. Sir Henry and Lady Dale. and NIr. D. Cannon Brookes were among those unable to attend.
Thee three family members that seemed to attend were Edmund O'Gorman, Mr. John O'Gorman, Mr. Thomas O'Gorman
These three names provide a possible link back to Christina
There must be a family link to these three individuals
-
Another article from the times
under wills and bequests may 21 1958
WILLS AND BEQUESTS LIEUTENANT-COLONEL MERVYN JOSEPH PIus O'GORMAN, of Embankment Gardens, S.W., consulting engineer, left ?163,224 gross, ?161.654 net (duty paid, ?86,872). He left ?3,000 to the Royal Aeronautical Society; ?2,000 each to the Athenaeum Club, the Royal Institution of Great Britain the Institution of Civil Engineers, and the Institution of Electrical Engineers, ?1,000 to the Institution of Mechanical Engineers, and ?500 to the Art Workers' Guild
No mention of a daughter. To be honest the evidence that he had a child is slim yet the preponderance evidence against him having a child appears stronger.
II did consider that the model might be someone who was payed to do pictures etc, but I'm starting to go against this idea due to the fact that she is seen sitting next to 2 other young girls. Unlikely he hired three girls and only did pictures for one. I also doubt that the pictures were all done on the same day.
the other interesting factor is that Mervyn was from a Celtic bloodline and the girl looks likely she is from ta Celtic blood line i.e red hair. As Ive said before she looks like the spitting image of my first wife who was also from a Celtic blood line.
None of this on its own is proof but does push to me believing this girl is a related to Mervyn.
-
I am very intrigued by the 'lady in red'. As a former photographer & picture editor, looking at all the images attributed to Mervyn, I have no doubts as to them being from c1913. Most of the images are of the same young lady on her own, and don't tell you very much. However as to the image of the '3 women on the beach', I am sure it isn't Mervyn's wife in the middle as Florence (Mervyns wife) was 58 in 1913. There does seem to be a familial facial link between them, so its possible they are 3 sisters, and I have found in Florence's family 3 sisters who would match in terms of ages, and indeed location. However none of them are named Christina, and I can't find a definitive link between them and Mervyn & Florence (for instance one of them being Florences goddaughter or such). Will keep looking and keep updating, I'm pretty sure this mystery can be solved, although its more likely to be solved by a descendant of one of girls coming forward.
-
There is also a possibility that Christina is a family member. Melvyn had a full sister Edith Seibe Gorman maybe she had a daughter
I too thought Edith might be a sister, based on birth year & location, but I've seen her christening record which names her parents as William and Jane, which were not Mervyn's parents names so I've ruled her out as a sibling (although still possibly a family member obvioulsy).
-
Quite fascinated by the photo and the mystery of the girl in it,I have done a quite amount of research myself however,as everyone else,to no avail.While I failed to find out who she was I can see there was a woman named Maria Christina Ogorman who is a sister to Edmond Anthony O'Gorman of Monamore country Clare.Could be that THE Christina was named after her aunt by some of Mervyns half siblings or so?
Edmond Anthony Ogorman had a brother and 4 sisters named Michael Harold 1817,Maria Christina 1811,Catherine Lutetia 1814,Mary Emily 1818 and Luisa 1816 Ogorman respectively,the last of whom had died an infant and his only brother Michael had died young in Algeria at 21 or so.Marys son William Roope was a priest.
I as well am pretty sure this could be solved by some means somehow.
And it would appear that some of the descendents of Cecil ogorman is active on some genealogy site though(not so sure how the site works).Might be worth contacting him.
-
His wife in her will left the entire state to her husband
Has anyone checked Mervyn O'Gorman's will?
I've now read a full copy of Mervyns will (which was written in 1955), the longtime companion mentioned in obits is named as Charlotte Tennant Copland. The only people mentioned in the will are Ms Copland and, and I quote, "to my nephew Edmond O'Gorman....of Obregon, Mexico" "to my neice Margaret Sharp...of Headcorn, Kent wife of William Sharp" "to my great niece Patricia Von Waberer...of Mexico" .... so in short Mervyns will does not shed any light on who 'Christina' was :(
-
By the time Mervyn had died in 1958 Christina must have been around 60 herself,she might have died or migrated to somewhere and lost touch with him by then.In 45 years things change.And he had half sisters as well its quite possible for Christina to have different surname to Ogorman and still was his niece through his half sisters.Provided that she was not some model picked off of the streets by Mervyn of course.
Questions I would like to ask though,are that who got the hold of the pictures from Mervyn and When and how?Why do they even have a portrait of her with her name on it? ???
-
"Questions I would like to ask though,are that who got the hold of the pictures from Mervyn and When and how?Why do they even have a portrait of her with her name on it?"
Good point Rusoftheeast.
I think it's important that the photo with the name imprinted on it is in black and white, it's not an autochrome : it's just the ordinary 19th century black-and white portrait of a family member.
I've got of a kind of romantic idea that mervyn first took that traditional black-and-white snapshot of the girl, without thinking too much about it, and that he later realised how awesome it would be to make more pictures with her -- on autochrome.
Christina (if it's her genuine name, because we all have to build conclusions and hypotheses over sand -- or pebbles ?-- here!) seems a bit younger on the black and white pic. And such a fascinating, creepy stare that it knocks me over each time I look at it.
a name is just a name, however, and it's not even completely certain that it points to the sitter in the photo. What we need is to genealogically trace back (mary) christina (O')Gorman back to the photographer, and nothing has emerged so far.
but don't you think that a part of the appeal of these pictures rely precisely on this mystery?
-
http://britishphotohistory.ning.com/profiles/blog/show?id=2680769%3ABlogPost%3A91194&commentId=2680769%3AComment%3A91207&xg_source=activity
Provides a very good piece of info and ties the will to the people in mexico
-
http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/CRAWFORD/2001-02/0982932172
Another link to mervyn o'Gorman family
-
Even better detail
http://www.mocavo.com/Irish-Pedigrees-or-the-Origin-and-Stem-of-the-Irish-Nation-Volume-2/855302/170
-
I thought Mervyn was one of three brothers, but it now seems he had a lot of half brothers and sisters. His father was one busy man , I feel a pity for his wife's
http://www.libraryireland.com/Pedigrees1/o-gorman-2-heremon.php
The relevant section cut from this link is this
137. Edmond-Anthony O'Gorman, of Monamore, county Clare: second son of Michael-Arthur; b. 6th Oct., 1820, and living in 1881. He m. in Jan., 1856, Sophia Pereira (who died October, 1863), and by her had five children:
I. Joseph-Vincent, born 21st May, 1857; made his vows in the Society of Jesus, in London, July, 1877.
II. Francis-Edmond, born 17th November, 1859.
III. Ignatius-Thomas, born 31st July, 1860; in the Society of Jesus, 7th September, 1880.
IV. Mary-Alicia, d. an infant 1871.
V. Mary, born 11th Oct., 1863.
In 1865 he m. Ellen, daughter of Capt. Edward Whyte, R.N., of Loughbrickland, and by her (who died in Nov., 1867) had one son:
VI. Edmond-John Whyte.
In 1871 he m. Margaret Barclay, eldest daughter of Mervyn Archdall Nott Crawford (see the "Crawford" pedigree), of Millwood, county Fermanagh, and by her had three children:
VII. Mervyn Archdall, born 19th December, 1871.
VIII. Cecil Carleton Crawford, born 6th April, 1873.
IX. Bernardine Beauchamp-Colclough, born 1st Nov., 1874
Could one of these half brothers or sisters be the parent of Christina ?
-
sorry for all the posts folks, it's a lazy Sunday morning in bed for me :)
Mervyn O'gorman was one of nine children , of the 8 siblings many can be discounted due to early death or not marrying and taking vows in the Catholic Church. Must of been a very religious family. I've often wondered why Mervyn never had any children and maybe being one of nine kids and losing his father at a early age put him off halving kids.
the possible candidates are the following
II. Francis-Edmond, born 17th November, 1859. He had two daughters of the correct age
V. Mary, born 11th Oct., 1863. (Would of been 44 when giving birth to girl of Christina age)
VI. Edmond-John Whyte. Born between 1865 and 1867 did his mother die at chilbirth because she died in 1867
IX. Bernardine Beauchamp-Colclough, born 1st Nov., 1874
mervyns father was having children into his fifties which is quite old by our day and age but with contraception not available then and being a good catholic we should widen the age gap to consider when viewing if some one would have a child.
-
Just a little point of interest Mervyn's Father Edmond was born in 1820 his third wife Margaret Barclay Crawford (born 1849) was only 20 (maybe 21) when married in 1871. Edmond at the time was 51 years old. He was 31 years older than her and had six children with 5 still alive at the time.
The oldest child would of been 14 and the youngest was one. Mervyn was born at the end of 1871 so either she got pregnant straight after marriage or was pregnant before marriage,
I wonder what a 20 year old girl would see in a man 51 years old with 5 kids ??? Money ....did he buy her off her family. I'm 50 years old and I can assure you no 20 year old girls are interested in me, happily my wife of similar age To me still is :)
this O'Gorman family is getting weirder and weirder makes my own crazy family seem sane :)
The stranger aspect is that the Crawford family is well documented and unlikely to be a bunch tenant farmers with no money
-
page 400 from the book history of Limerick
James O'Gorman (who was the fourth son of Daniel O'Gorman and Mary Roche, daughter of Philip Roche of Limerick), was born in the Castle of Bunratty,
Co. Clare, in 1681 ; he lost his property, and went to live in Limerick in 1724, where he married Christina Harold, third daughter of Thomas Harold and Alicia Enraght. He died in 1736. He had three sons and one daughter. His second son Thomas was born in 1724, and went to England in 1747, to claim for his relative Mrs Margaret Daly Walsh, estates, as heir-at-law to Sheffield Duke of Buckingham, and succeeded in establishing her right. He afterwards established himself as a merchant in London; He died in 1800, and the mercantile house, a somewhat eminent one, was continued under the firm of Goman Brothers. He had fourteen children. The period at which he dropped the 0' was after he went to London. The names of his sons were Edmond Sexton, Alicutbouse, Thomas Harold, James (Michael Arthur), William, Sivester, Charles, James Denis Charles, Thadeus, and George. It was James, we believe, that gave evidence for Mr. Arthur. Edmond A. Gorman, Esq. of east Berghall, Suffolk, represents this family.
Thomas Harold, James was Mervyns Grandad and was rich, so its fair to say that Mervyns dad was also wealthy
-
I too have been looking at this.
As already mentioned the 1911 and 1901 census for Mervyn and his wife show no children, more importantly the 1911 which obliged couples to record children born alive and still living, shows zero for both.
I feel that their connections to Ireland would be loose as the family originally arrived in the mid 1700s.
I have discovered that Mervyn had an older full brother and at least 3 half brothers, one of his half brothers Francis Edmund OGorman had 2 daughters, Winifred born 1892 and Gillian born 1897, the girls are home educated with a governess - the beach picnic certainly looks like a governess with 2 girls although they seem a little young for the birthdates of Winifred and Gillian. Plus of course they are not called Christina!
I'm currently tracing Mervyn's other siblings and then of course there will be his wife's siblings.
Regards
Aziliz
Some genlogical sites list Francis Edmond O'Gorman as the brother you have a Francis Edmund O'Gorman
Small spelling difference, but are they the same person or different
-
I gave up days ago actually but can you just check this out?
http://www.parentdish.co.uk/2015/04/30/100-year-old-colour-photos-on-the-beach/
What one of the comments says about Christina.He says she was not a relative not sure where he got that from though.He even names her husband and her child.
-
I gave up days ago actually but can you just check this out?
http://www.parentdish.co.uk/2015/04/30/100-year-old-colour-photos-on-the-beach/
What one of the comments says about Christina.He says she was not a relative not sure where he got that from though.He even names her husband and her child.
I'm close to giving up myself. The link stating that its Christina Gorman might make some sense however there's no proof given.
The frustrating part is the inconsistent use of the name gorman versus o'gorman in historical records
-
He says she was not a relative not sure where he got that from though.He even names her husband and her child.
I think he means that he is not related to her, not that she is not related to Mervyn
He means this marriage
Marriages December quarter 1927
Christina Gorman Devonport 5b 842
Llewellyn G Thomas Devonport 5b 842
But looks like 2 daughters from that marriage.
-
sorry for all the posts folks, it's a lazy Sunday morning in bed for me :)
Mervyn O'gorman was one of nine children , of the 8 siblings many can be discounted due to early death or not marrying and taking vows in the Catholic Church. Must of been a very religious family. I've often wondered why Mervyn never had any children and maybe being one of nine kids and losing his father at a early age put him off halving kids.
the possible candidates are the following
II. Francis-Edmond, born 17th November, 1859. He had two daughters of the correct age
V. Mary, born 11th Oct., 1863. (Would of been 44 when giving birth to girl of Christina age)
VI. Edmond-John Whyte. Born between 1865 and 1867 did his mother die at chilbirth because she died in 1867
IX. Bernardine Beauchamp-Colclough, born 1st Nov., 1874
Some updates on these possible candidates
V. Mary born 11 Oct 1863 in Suffolk, died without issue in June 1934
VI. Edmond John Whyte born 1867 in Suffolk, died without issue in Feb 1933 (he was a Catholic priest like his older half brothers Joseph Vincent and Ignatius Thomas)
IX. Bernardine Beauchamp Colclough born Nov 1874, married Eva Mary Johnson in 1906, died July 1943. Can't find any children, but seeing that he married in 1906, he can't have had a child that would match 'Christina' age.
That leaves
II. Francis Edmond O'Gorman, born 17th November 1859. He would be Mervyn's older half brother (as the 2nd son of Mervyns fathers first marriage). Francis Edmond married in 1886 Constance Pownall (1869-1944). They have 3 children a son, Francis Hugh (1888-1955) and two daughters Winifred Constance born 1893, and Gillian Dorothy born 1897 making them 20 and 16 respectively at the time the photos were taken, if indeed they were taken in 1913.
On the 1911 census the 2 girls are living in Suffolk, with their parents and 4 servants (the census also confirms that there were only the 3 children from the marriage, so no 3rd daughter to match to the '3 girls on the beach' photo)
There is an image of 'Christina' not taken at the beach, she is in red but in front of a leaf covered wall with purple flowers, and there is a corresponding image of a similar younger looking girl in a green striped jumper in front of the same wall. Are these matching photos of the two sisters ??
I've been at this for about two weeks now, and only today did i find someone with the actual name 'Christina' within the family, born in Ireland in 1810. Either 'Christina' is a daughter of a friend of the family, in which case there would be no 'paper trail', or she is a member of the family not named Christina.
Back to the research ....
-
Thanks kilkennylass for doing this research and moving the quest for the truth onwards
We can deduct that Mervyns mother is very unlikely to provide any links due to most of her siblings being dead way before any possible birth dates for the girls in the photo.
On Mervyns father side only one candidate seems likely which is his half brother Francis Edmond O'Gorman and his two daughters Winifred Constance (1893), and Gillian Dorothy (1897) are these the two girls in the pictures, lets go through the evidence
The question that needs to be as asked first is
WHY were these photo's made, what was the motivation for such staged shots
The first conclusion is that these were professional shots with a model selected and the purpose of these shots were to display these photos and show the wonders of autochrome photos. If they impress people now they would impress people then and impress them well
There are arguments against this
1 There seems to be a earlier picture of Christina in black and white we she appears younger, so at least knew the girl and is unlikely to be some model he hired off the street
2 The picture on the beach of the three girls indicates some family setting
3 There's also a picture of another girl in the same setting, yet this picture is not so well known.
4 Mervyn seems to be much of a perfectionist which might explain why so much effort was put into staging these pictures
For me the two girls Winifred Constance (1893), and Gillian Dorothy (1897) seem strong possibilities. This is partly based on a saying from Sherlock Homes
"How often have I said to you that when you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth "
Another interesting point to consider is Francis Edmond O'Gorman was a wealthy man. Maybe he asked his Brother to take the pictures and payed the costs associated with these pictures. It just seems that some of these pictures you would want to display in a home, and Mervyn decided to take a few extra picture to display at exhibition which explain some of the pictures you wouldn't want to display on your family wall i.e the pictures of Christina on the rocks by a boat. The two pictures of the girls against the wall look like pictures a father would want to put on a wall and hence the picture of BOTH girls is taken
This is conjecture but there is a way to take this theory forward
Do two of the three girls on the beach match the two girls holding flowers against the wall
Ill be trying to get the highest quality copies and see if they match
If they do it would be best to trace the living relatives of these girls and see if they can drag up old photos of them. Even if the girls have aged a lot we can use computer technology to see if they be matched with facial recognition software.
the last mystery is the word Christina itself, maybe one of the girls hated there name so much they had a pet name for themselves
If I was called Winifred Constance id want a name change
-
http://gw.geneanet.org/sanchiz?lang=en;p=michael+arthur;n=o+gorman
The only Christina of the family married James Tobin of Cumsinagh?
-
@Mako23 You make some excellent points...
"Do two of the three girls on the beach match the two girls holding flowers against the wall
Ill be trying to get the highest quality copies and see if they match
If they do it would be best to trace the living relatives of these girls and see if they can drag up old photos of them. Even if the girls have aged a lot we can use computer technology to see if they be matched with facial recognition software"
I'm confident that the two girls by the wall are the two younger girls from the '3 girls on beach' image.....but more importantly I may have found photos of Winifred & Gillian together as children, its a b&w photo dated 1901, and the same person has also posted photos of Gillian from 1926 and later. I've contacted the person who posted the images asking for confirmation of the identities, date taken etc, and I've sent them the 'christina' photos in case they weren't aware and can either confirm/deny the connection themselves, or pass them onto a family member who can.
"For me the two girls Winifred Constance (1893), and Gillian Dorothy (1897) seem strong possibilities. This is partly based on a saying from Sherlock Homes
"How often have I said to you that when you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth ""
There are 3 sisters in Florences (Mervyn's wife) family, who match in age (and thus could match the 3 girls on the beach) so there is still that line of inquiry, but they are more distant family being Florences' great-neices so linking them back to Mervyn & Florence in Dorset in 1913 may prove tricky, but hey Florence might have been close to her older brother and taken an interest in his granddaughters !
The questions that are puzzling me are on the photographic side .. why do we only have these handful of photos from Mervyn ? If he was so keen a photographer, and had the money & time to partake of this expensive hobby, why so few photos ? Is it simply that there were hundreds more but they've been lost or destroyed ? And how did these few come to be in possession of the Royal Photographic Society ? Do TRPS actually have more of his images in their archives, undiscovered ? And the big question niggling me, was Mervyn the actual photographer ? Maybe she was called Christina, but no relation to Mervyn who through his many artistic contacts 'ended up' with the images and inadvertently claimed authourship of them himself.
From so many angles, this is a fascinating story.
-
kilkennylass
Just some extra points about the girls on the beach
At high magnification the girl in the middle does not look that young at all, or in the end could it be Mervyns wife. The way she is dressed is very mature and formal
The assumption is that these photos were taken at the same day as the pictures of Christina but if so a few questions have to be asked
Why is this photo not at the same quality, the colors are not so deep and vibrant surely Christina's red hair and Shaw should be a more vibrant red but it isn't...its washed out in color. Where is the other two dresses that Christina wore not in the picture. I cant see any bag that could be holding these dresses or to be exact one bathing suite and one jump suite.
It could be argued that they were removed from shot but if so why wasn't all the other junk removed from short as well.
The simple answer is that they shots were taken at different times if not years apart.
Considering that Mervyn and his wife were childless maybe they took a strong bond to there nieces. Its not uncommon for childless couples to become absolutely potty over there nephews and nieces. In post Victorian times maybe even more so.
I can well believe that Mervyn took his nieces on multiple trips over the years. Mervyn being a car enthusiasts I bet they loved going out in trips with him.
kilkennylass you made the point that these girls could be great nieces from one of Mervyns wife brothers. Considering that she was childless the they were grand nieces wouldn't make much difference. I think that this area might need to be looked at closer
kilkennylass wrote
I'm confident that the two girls by the wall are the two younger girls from the '3 girls on beach' image.....but more importantly I may have found photos of Winifred & Gillian together as children, its a b&w photo dated 1901, and the same person has also posted photos of Gillian from 1926 and later. I've contacted the person who posted the images asking for confirmation of the identities, date taken etc, and I've sent them the 'christina' photos in case they weren't aware and can either confirm/deny the connection themselves, or pass them onto a family member who can.
kilkennylass Any url links or pictures you can post would be greatly appreciated also great detective work done :) by you
You also wrote There are 3 sisters in Florences (Mervyn's wife) family, who match in age (and thus could match the 3 girls on the beach) so there is still that line of inquiry
Can you post some more details on this please ie name birth dates etc and genealogical links
Regards Mako
-
Hi Mako,
"The assumption is that these photos were taken at the same day as the pictures of Christina but if so a few questions have to be asked
Why is this photo not at the same quality, the colors are not so deep and vibrant surely Christina's red hair and Shaw should be a more vibrant red but it isn't...its washed out in color. Where is the other two dresses that Christina wore not in the picture. I cant see any bag that could be holding these dresses or to be exact one bathing suite and one jump suite"
These images aren't from photographs, they are from autochrome plates, which where essentially glass plates with coloured potato starch on them. Since each plate used would have been prepared by hand, and thus unique, I would fully expect there to be a difference in colour saturation even on plates exposed on the same day. Heres a link which explains it better ! http://www.nationalmediamuseum.org.uk/nmem/autochrome/Technical_Details.asp
My guess would be that the 'beach' photos were one day, and the 'garden' photos another but all within a few days/a week of each other.
"At high magnification the girl in the middle does not look that young at all, or in the end could it be Mervyns wife. The way she is dressed is very mature and formal"
Mervyn's wife would have been 59-60 in 1913, and the lady in the middle looks older than the other two, but perhaps not that old.....but perhaps its a governess ? On the 1911 census Winifred & Gillian are living in Suffolk with their parents, and a 35 yr old governness.
With regards to Florences great nieces ... one of her elder brothers was
Frederick Charles Rasch (1843-1887) who married in 1871 & had one daughter
Mildred Alice Sothern Rasch (1879-1965)
who married in 1879 and had 1 son and 3 daughters ...
the daughters are Winsome Joyce (1897-2000), Joan Mildred (1900-1948) and Jocelyn Maureen (1903-2000)
Therefore in 1913 the sisters were 16, 13 and 10 respectively. In the 1911 census the sisters are visiting their paternal grandparents in Bath, and their mother Mildred and her 2nd husband were living in Devon. All 3 sisters married and had children.
-
I've read a copy of Mervyn's fathers will. He died a very wealthy man indeed, and through that will discovered another brother of Mervyn's, Michael Conolly O'Gorman b 1885 d 1957. He does marry, but in 1916 and although I haven't found any children from the marriage, its pointless as clearly their child could not be on a beach in 1913. Dead end.
Mervyns' brothers, half brothers and half sisters are .....
Edmond Anthony O'Gorman (b 1821 d 1912)
married 3 times,had 10 children, and at least 7 grandchildren
Married 1st 1856 Sophia Agnes Pereria (1825 -1865)
i Joseph Vincent (1857-1932) Roman Catholic priest/died without issue
ii Francis Edmond (1859-1923)
married 1886 Constance Pownall (1869-1944)
i Francis Hugh (1888-1955)
ii Winifred Constance (1893-1976)
iii Gillian Dorothy (1897-? )
iii Ignatius Tomas (1860-1941) Roman Catholic priest/died without issue
iv Mary Alicia (1861-1871)
v Mary Anglea (1863-1934) unmarried/died without issue
Married 2nd 1865 Ellen Whyte (1826-1867)
vi Edmund John (1867-1933) Roman Catholic priest/died without issue
Married 3rd 1871 Margaret Elizabeth Barclay Crawford (1849-1899)
vii Mervyn Joseph Pius (1871-1958)
married 1898 Florence Catharine Rasch (1854-1931)
no issue
viii Cecil Crawford (1873-1943)
married 1904 Encarnacion Moreno
ix Francis Javier Juan (1905-1982)
x Edmundo (1906-1995)
xi Margarita (1908- ?)
ix Bernadine Mary (1874-1943)
married 1906 Eva Mary Johnson
xii Margaret Elizabeth (1920- ?)
x Michael Conolly (1885-1953)
married 1916 Elsie Louise Metzgar (1884-1852)
no known children
In Edmonds will, all the children are named one way or another, only one child pre-deceased him. Our Merv was the last surviving child when he died in 1958. Within Mervyns' immediate female family (sisters & nieces), no one is named Christina, and everyone, except Michael in 1885, is born as Gorman and dies as O'Gorman.
Of all Mervyn's nieces, only two are of the approx correct age in 1913, and they are the two daughters of Francis Edmond, Winifred Constance (b1893) and Gillian Dorothy (b1897). I have been in contact with a cousin of these two and asked them if 'Christina' could be them. The cousin seemed confused as to what I was asking, and merely replied that 'Christina O'Gorman' wasn't a member of her family, so I've sent another message just clarifying the request, to which I have not yet had a further reply. This cousin does have photos posted on their ancestry.co.uk tree of Winifred & Gillian as children, and Gillian as an adult, and if I haven't heard back from them within the week I might post the photos here for you all to make up your own minds as to any similarities (I don't see any myself)
The name 'Christina' does crop up within Mervyn's paternal line. Mervyn's aunt was Maria Christina (she dies without issue in 1897), his great aunt was also Maria Christina (she marries but I haven't yet found any children yet), and his great great aunt was Christina (who marries and does has a daughter called Christina but I can't find any marriage and/or children for her...but then Irish records from the mid-1700's are not abundant, accurate, or online !)
So, thats where I'm at. I'm moving onto the images themselves, I've been told there are unpublished images of Mervyn's within the Royal Photographic Society collection. Maybe they will shed some light :)
-
No sooner do I say there are unpublished images of O'Gormans in the RPS collection, one appears ! This is also credited as being 'Christina' and also taken in 1913 by Mervyn O'Gorman, this is a bromide print rather than an autochrome image so has little colour.
-
Heres the new image alongside 3 others of her for comparison ...
-
She looks quite different here. :o
Surprising that the photo was taken in the same year as the other color photos.She looks older than she was when the portrait was taken but slightly younger than when the other color photos were taken.
Whenever the new photo was taken,the Christina being just a model picked off of the street theory I think can be crossed out.There must have been some connection between the two(Mervyn and Christina).
Given the portrait with her name on it,I personally believe "Christina" was indeed named Christina or at least her pet name was.There were some Christinas in the family tree as well.But if the cousin of Winifred indeed denies the connection,that she is not related to Christina,there would be no candidate from Mervyn family :-[
In the event of that,I would guess Christina was a daughter or niece of his friend out of some photograph club or something.
But what makes it difficult though,is that nothing is sure about literally everything.Photographer could have been anybody,Christina could have been Winifred,the photo could have been taken in 1910.
Ultimately,I want to ask the RPS how they got it and when and from whom.
Nevertheless it is amazing to see new photos of Christina we have never seen before after nearly a month of fruitlessness.Its quite motivation for us all.
Amazing work you do Kilkennylass :o
edit: I just noticed that this http://www.ssplprints.com/image/198361/ogorman-mervyn-portrait-of-christina-in-a-garden-c-1912 says this one was taken in 1912.Could be a typo though.
And they also say the portrait one was taken in 1913 which apparently cant be true.
Seems like we have to take these basic facts with a pinch of salt.
http://collectionsonline.nmsi.ac.uk/detail.php?type=related&kv=8448246&t=objects
-
I would be astonished if they where all taken in the same year, and i agree of having to take the dates with a pinch of salt. (some esteemed establishments can't even get the images the correct way round !)
I would certainly like to see the evidence of Mervyn O'Gorman as the photographer. Yes he had the means and the time to indulge such a hobby, but he also had many artistic friends through which he could have 'ended up' with the glass plates and they erroneoulsy got attributed to him. Having said that, I'm sure by now if they weren't his original images it would have been questioned/found out.
For ease of discussion, I've put all the images together, and numbered them.
Image 1 could be the only source for the 'Christina' name. Why put it on there if it wasn't her real name ? But was it put on there when the image was taken, or was it added later by someone else ? Why is this the only studio photo ? Is it even the same girl as image 11 ?
The garden photos I'm fairly convinced where produced on the same day. The flower bouquet 'Christina' is holding as she sits by the pond (image 3) seems to be the bouquet that, lets call her 'Green Girl', is holding in image 5. Also images 4 & 5, seeminly different girls, identical backgrounds (although one has been flipped horizontally). There is nothing to really identify the location, except the pond, although it seems more intimate than just a hotel, or them visiting a country house/stately home. 'Christina' has taken off her stockings and shoes to sit in the garden, and by the pond.....is that something you would do at your hotel or if visiting a country house ?
The beach photos are definitely Durdle Door Beach, not Lulworth Cove as often stated....although both locations are only about a mile 1/2 apart. The boat in image 6, appears in the background of image 9 but very hard to tell if its in the b/ground of image 10.
As to dates, if garden & beach are indeed 1913, i would say image 1 is of a younger her. Image 1 1910-11 ? image 11, 1914 ? Doesn't help we have no idea how old she is in any of them ! I would put her at about 16-17.....
There are still the possible candidates on Mervyn's wifes side...her 3 great neices. Maybe a call out on social media for any descendants is a way forward....
Anyway, I've made a request to visit the RPS collection (which is now held at the National Media Museum in Bradford)....be interesting to see what crops up :)
-
I am fairly convinced that the image 1 and 11 are of the same girl that we are looking for.Different lighting and was taken from a lower angle and the image 11 being taken possibly years later.
All the color photos must have been taken over a few days at most,She is wearing the same top and the belt in the image 2,3,4 and 9 as well.With all the set-up I would imagine they spent a whole day taking photos at the beach,are there any houses near the beach though?Even with a car of Mervyns their mobility must have been limited in 1913.The pond and garden must be not that far from the beach.
And Lastly,if you look at some bigger and better quality pictures you can see the girl in the image 5 bears some great resemblance to the image 10 - her strong chin and straight nose,and the blonde hair color and its length.While not convinced,I do think the girl from the 5 is the same girl in the 10.
Well lets see what the cousin of Winifred and RPS say.It would be lovely to see the actual photos but I live in the far east of Russia so England is literally the opposite side of the world to me.I would have to leave the visit to you :(
I hope the visit yields some new progress there.
I going to leave some good quality photos where you can enlarge them huge on the screen.
http://1.mshcdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/Christina-5.jpg
http://1.mshcdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/Christina-7.jpg
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-iuu5oDU-gHI/VSQsVhgOIPI/AAAAAAABaS4/o2JLCoDwS_s/s1600/Mervyn%2BO%E2%80%99Gorman%E2%80%99s%2BDaughter%2Bin%2B1913%2B%282%29.jpg
http://cdn.visualnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/Christina-in-red-7.jpg
-
Just read through the thread - fascinating story.
The garden pictures look like they would have been taken in late May / early June - lilac in full flower. The formal garden with rectangular pond looks like there are geraniums in pots. This might indicate the garden owner had a glass house where they had been overwintered and brought into flower and put outside after last frost. The girl in red against the wall has picked a lilac, looks like the cut stalk across right upper sleeve. Would you do that if it wasn't your garden? The bouquet which the other girl is holding and features in the pond picture looks like flowers recently cut from the garden.
Could the house be owned by a friend of Mervyn's, be situated close to Lulworth / Durdle Door and the girls are the daughters (or related in some way) to the owner of the house rather than related to Mervyn.
The garden looks quite substantial, with old walled garden, possibly with outbuildings / bothy behind (roof visible over the wall). The formal part looks as if it was more recently built judging from style and stonework - Edwardian?.
The nearest large house I can think of would be Lulworth Castle. Although one website did suggest it was Rempstone Hall near Corfe. But that sounds a bit far to pop down to the beach at Durdle.
-
Considering the interest generated not only here but in Europe and U.S. it's suspicious that no one, from the family or anyone else, has any explanations. Barring accidents, 'Christina' could have lived into the 1980's.
Google images for Christina Gorman or O'Gorman bring up lots of pics. including contemporary as in now.
-
The garden pictures look like they would have been taken in late May / early June - lilac in full flower.
Thanks LizzeL ! i thought it could be a buddleia, with maybe a clematis thats finished flowering.
Could the house be owned by a friend of Mervyn's, be situated close to Lulworth / Durdle Door and the girls are the daughters (or related in some way) to the owner of the house rather than related to Mervyn.
very possible. in fact, looking more likely ! My next task was going to be looking at the 1911 census for the area, basically reading it and seeing if anything jumped out.
The nearest large house I can think of would be Lulworth Castle. Although one website did suggest it was Rempstone Hall near Corfe. But that sounds a bit far to pop down to the beach at Durdle.
I've looked at both these places, concentrating on any images of the gardens/grounds, and can't really pinpoint anything. Found some aeriel images of Rempstone Hall from the 1950's, but nothing in them stands out as being our 'garden'. But still looking :)
Durdle Door is about 15 miles by road from Rempstone Hall (according to the aa route planner thingy), don't know if any more direct routes existed in 1913. As Rusoftheeast says, Mervyn would certainly have had a car (very keen motorist, and had the money), and whever the 'garden' was if thats where they were staying, perhaps Durdle Door was a day trip from there, hence the picnic ?
I am fairly convinced that the image 1 and 11 are of the same girl that we are looking for.Different lighting and was taken from a lower angle and the image 11 being taken possibly years later.
I tried in photoshop to overlay the two portraits, to see if eye width, nose shape, lips etc matched up, and they don't.....but will try again. If its shown its not the same girl.....can open, worms everywhere !
Well lets see what the cousin of Winifred and RPS say.It would be lovely to see the actual photos but I live in the far east of Russia so England is literally the opposite side of the world to me.I would have to leave the visit to you :(
I would love to see the original glass plates, if only to confirm which is the correct way round for them all (well, 6 & 10 are certainly correct the way I have them, you can't have durdle door any other way). Still waiting for a reply to two collection visit requests.
I do feel an urge to visit Dorset...Corfe Castle is only 2 1/2 hours away !
-
A little bit of info re Mervyn and his car and where he was in 1913.
If he did drive to Dorset in 1913, he did so with an expired license ! Found this wonderful piece in the Middlesex Chronicle for Saturday Jan 31 1914....
"Mervyn O'Gorman, of 21, Embankment Gardens, Chelsea, was summoned for driving a motor car at Staines-road, Sunbury, on December 29th, at a speed exceeding 20miles per hour, and also without a licence. P.S Jones deposed that the speed of the car was 34miles 1083 yards per hour. Defendant's licence had expired in February, 1913, and it was renewed the day after he was stopped, a space of ten months intervening. A number of previous convictions were proved. Mr Parkes, who appeared for the defendant, said O'Gorman had no occasion to look at his licence and was not aware it had expired. Fined £5 for excessive speed and £1 for driving without a license."
So he most certainly had a car in 1913, and liked to drive at nearly 35miles an hour !
But it does raise an interesting possibility. London to Dorset with a speed limit of 20miles an hour (poss higher on some roads, but surely nothing above 40 ?) is a very long journey, and not one probably made in a day. You would probably split your journey half way for a night or two. Could the garden images be at where they possibly stayed for a few days mid journey to Dorset ? They could have taken the trian of course, but still intriging.
Another newspaper article from Friday August 29th 1913, says
"Army Flying Corps
Fine Demonstration Given at Farnborough
Theer was a fine demonstration of the progress made in aviation by the Royal Flying Corps yesterday evening, when General Henderson, the newly appointed Inspector-General of Military Aviation visited Farnborough. The general was conducted through the sheds by Mr Mervyn O'Gorman.
General Henderson afterwards made an ascent in the Beta Airship. He also saw Mr Ronald Kent take up his equerry, Major Broncker, in the B.E No 4990, the fastest biplane the Army at present possesses. Ascending to a height of over 2,000ft the biplane made a tour of Farnborough Common, and then descended safely. General Henderson's pilot in the Beta was Captain Waterlow, of the Royal Flying Corps.
The Inspector-General subsequently saw half a dozen biplanes ascend together to a height of 2,000ft, and witnessed some clever feats of volplaning and banking. The weather was beautifully fine, and the conditions were perfect for flying"
So he was in Farnborough, Hampshire on Thursday August 28th 1913, West London on Sunday December 29th 1913, and yet another newspaper report has him in Aldershot for an inquest on October 15th 1913.
-
""1904 O'GORMAN, Mervyn, 82, Victoria Street, London, S.W. Cars: Oldsmobile, 5-h.p. electric victoria (Still system). Total distance travelled since becoming a motorist. About 15,000 miles. Hobbies: Touring with camera, sketching, shooting. Principal aim in furthering automobilism: To promote the use by municipalities and others of motor-cars instead of trams; to open up poor districts and the colonies by good roads and cars, instead of delaying development until the remote time when the heavy Standing charges of a railway could he met. Club: Burlington Fine Arts. [1] ""
It would appear that Mervyn indeed loved touring with camera and promoted cars instead of trams.
Mervyn being "a charming and humorous man with enormous physical and mental energy" and quite easy going that he would drive with an expired license,I can easily imagine him driving to Dorset from London even taking more than a day or two.I doubt that he would have made a trip to Dorset by train.
And yes it is likely the Christina was a daughter of his friend living in Dorset but that raises some questions about the portrait of younger Christina and the image 11 and the fact he had taken photos of her on many different occasions,possibly more are out there unpublished or destroyed.Maybe she was TOURING with him from London?
He had a firm named ""O'Gorman and Cozens-Hardy in London"" with E. H. Cozens-Hardy from Automobile Club of Great Britain and Ireland,later from 1907 known as Royal Automobile Club.
He must have had a lot of friends from the club who also liked cars.He could have been touring with his car loving friend(s) with their daughters and wife,whom Mervyn had also known for years.
-
Having had a look at this very interesting post,my answer is to obtain hard facts.
Pretty sure to me that Christina may well be Mervyn Gormans natural daughter,which is why no one has yet come forward to verify her.
FindMyPast has a marriage record in the Cornish Telegraph dated Thursday July 29th 1937.
Lavish wedding at St Buryan Parish Church West Cornwall,where Col Mervyn O Gorman gave wedding presents ,,,,,Gold fox brooch,and china horse.Detailed newspaper account,with aviation and auto friends were guests,the bridal pairs car being shipped to Scandinavia where they extensively toured on honeymoon.On no account am I suggesting that there is any connection to the missing Christina but this just helps to fill in the later background.
-
This is interesting .... from the Bath Chronicle 13 October 1934
"Street Obstruction - Mervyn O'Gorman, Embankment Gardens, Chelsea, was summoned for obstructing Stall Street with a motor car on Sept 20th.
P.C James said the car was left from 11.50am to 12.35pm. When the defendant returned he said "My wife went to have her hair dressed, and I went into Woolworth's to wait for her" (laughter). Traffic was very heavy, and at 12.20pm the whole street was blocked"
It goes on to say he pleaded quilty and was fined £1......but his wife had died in 1931 ! Was he just being flippant, joking wanting to raise a laugh, or had he atually re-married, or was he referring to his companion Charlotte Copland (although I can't place her with him any earlier than 1948) ?
In 1933 he self-published a book of poetry, and it is dedicated to Nicolette Hornby. I thought it could be a line of enquiry....but it wasn't. She was the wife of one of his neighbours. I happen to have a first edition of the book, and on the inside cover it says, in pen, "To Joan with many rememberances from the author 30.3.33". Joan is the name of one of Florences great-neices who match the approx age for being Christina
With regards to Florences great nieces ... one of her elder brothers was
Frederick Charles Rasch (1843-1887) who married in 1871 & had one daughter
Mildred Alice Sothern Rasch (1879-1965)
who married in 1879 and had 1 son and 3 daughters ...
the daughters are Winsome Joyce (1897-2000), Joan Mildred (1900-1948) and Jocelyn Maureen (1903-2000)
Therefore in 1913 the sisters were 16, 13 and 10 respectively. In the 1911 census the sisters are visiting their paternal grandparents in Bath, and their mother Mildred and her 2nd husband were living in Devon. All 3 sisters married and had children.
No idea if its a coincidence, or a lead.
-
Unable to come up with anything on your interesting post Kilkenny Lass,but have had a look for a second marriage for Mervyn. Florence had died in Chelsea 1931.[they were orginally married in San Remo USA 1897]
Possible marriage.
This one comes up 1938 Maidstone,,,,, Mervyn J, O Gorman to a certain Gladys E Bull. Traced her via 1911,she appears to be the daughter of an invoice clerk at a Motor Tyre Company.
Parents, Thomas C,and Evaline M.Bull,living 33 Finborough Rd Fulham.Gladys born Kensington 1907.
This does not help much,but am asking myself if the photos are actually what they are supposed to be,some could be much later say 1930s.
-
The 1938 O'Gorman/Bull marriage is a Mervyn John aged 25.....i thought the same as you Brionne, possible 2nd marriage so looked into it.
I've gone with Mervyn & Florences marriage being San Remo, Italy not USA. The transcription on Findmypast says USA, but the actual page makes no mention of USA so not sure where FindMyPast got that from. San Remo Italy is just along the coast from where his parents were living at the time, so I've plumped for Italy but hung a big question mark on it.
"where the images really taken in 1913" and "where the images really taken by O'Gorman" are two big things that I question every day. Part of me thinks, someone, somewhere would have found out by now if either of those huge 'facts' weren't correct. But then maybe the images, and him, haven't really been under any scrutiny before now. A lot of times the images aren't even the correct way round ! As you say Brionne, hard facts are needed, but they are hard to come by and even when you think you have one, they might contradict another ! Its what makes the story so fascinating...
-
Thanks KLass,you obviously have got into this in great depth.
Believe though that Mervyns marriage to Florence could still be San Remo New York.
The image gives no countries, being written in longhand,c1893,they are all British Consular marriages,
includes at least one in S.America,so not confined to Europe.
Does anyone have sight of the certificate to confirm this either way.
As regards the Mervyn John birth,still could be a connection.Born in close area,etc,just surmising.
-
On another website, the garden pond stonework is described as modern, not early 20th Century. I don't understand the technicalities, but another small doubt perhaps.
-
Thanks KLass,you obviously have got into this in great depth.
Believe though that Mervyns marriage to Florence could still be San Remo New York.
The image gives no countries, being written in longhand,c1893,they are all British Consular marriages,
includes at least one in S.America,so not confined to Europe.
Does anyone have sight of the certificate to confirm this either way.
As regards the Mervyn John birth,still could be a connection.Born in close area,etc,just surmising.
Yep, agree with all of that ! I've applied for the marriage certificate, fingers crossed it answers questions and doesn't simply raise more !
Just had confirmation from St Edmund's College in Hertfordshire that Mervyn attended there starting in June 1881 and was there till at least Aug 1884. Just a tidbit to throw out there....
Best news from today, I have an appointment to veiw his images held in the Royal Photographic Society Collection, which includes all the 'Christina' images plus some unpublished ones of a 'Sylvia Miles' which are b&w and also credited with being taken in 1913 .. has anyone come across that name in their research ?? Sorry don't know how old she is or where the images were taken...but going to be fascinating to see them
*****AMENDMENT 28/05 18.28... Shld read SYBIL MILES. sorry everyone****
-
There are very few births for Sylvia Miles:
Births December quarter 1892 Sylvia Izzeta Miles Chorlton Dies 1895
Births September quarter 1901 Sylvia Minnie Miles Chorlton Dies 1901
Births June quarter 1902 Sylvia Annette Miles Marylebone Dies 1905
Births September quarter 1907 Sylvia Alice M Miles Chipping N.
Births September quarter 1909 Sylvia Forde Miles Barnstaple
Births September quarter 1910 Sylvia M Miles Leeds Dies 1910
So, interested to see how old she looks in 1913.
-
So, so sorry Chempat......my mistake it was SYBIL Miles
And just to confirm I've got it right this time, this is the message
"Comment on May 12, 2015 at 16:24
There are b/w photographs by O'Gorman in the RPS Collection of a woman called Sybil Miles, also taken in 1913. It may be that Christina is related to her rather than to O'Gorman - daughter/niece perhaps?"
So sorry everyone :(
-
Even fewer births for Sybil, I would guess.
-
Births March quarter 1905 Sybil Miles Guildford
Births June quarter 1905 Sybil May Miles Southwell
Births March quarter 1907 Sybil Miles Pontypridd
-
Found this. Purports to be Christina and her mother, Mrs O'Gorman. 1910.
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-epcc4Dk40AQ/T1vW25DhcRI/AAAAAAAACgI/B_oNxjwFHYo/s1600/autochrome-c1910.jpg.
There's a couple of others too, if I can refind them.
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-rRCC2S2ul-A/T1vWzOtKf8I/AAAAAAAACgA/NZ5rkpM0SPs/s1600/autochrome1910-3.jpg.
-
There was a Sybil Miles living in Kings Weston near Bristol around that time. She was the wife of Philip Napier Miles, and was born Sybil Marguerite Gonse de Hochepied Larpent in Brighton in 1868. So she would have been a contemporary of Mervyn O'Gorman in Brighton during his childhood.
-
Found this. Purports to be Christina and her mother, Mrs O'Gorman. 1910.
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-epcc4Dk40AQ/T1vW25DhcRI/AAAAAAAACgI/B_oNxjwFHYo/s1600/autochrome-c1910.jpg.
There's a couple of others too, if I can refind them.
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-rRCC2S2ul-A/T1vWzOtKf8I/AAAAAAAACgA/NZ5rkpM0SPs/s1600/autochrome1910-3.jpg.
They are lovely aren't they ! but can't find any reference to them being by O'Gorman....can you remember the link to where they are credited to him ?
-
is this it, or am I going in circles?
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01fdj/
do not know if she actually claims it, or it is suggested as such in searches.
-
There was a Sybil Miles living in Kings Weston near Bristol around that time. She was the wife of Philip Napier Miles, and was born Sybil Marguerite Gonse de Hochepied Larpent in Brighton in 1868. So she would have been a contemporary of Mervyn O'Gorman in Brighton during his childhood.
thats very tantalising. Mervyn didn't spend much time in Brighton as a child, the family were in Warwickshire by April 1873, but the family could easily have kept in touch with their brighton friends...
In the 1871 census Mervyns father Edmond, mother Margaret and half brother Edmond were living at 6 Clifton Terrace.......would you like to live in the house ? You can if you have a spare £300,000 for the one bed maisonette that forms the lower part of that property today !
http://media.rightmove.co.uk/13k/12491/49538500/12491_6CLIFTONTERRACE3_DOC_00_0000.pdf
-
is this it, or am I going in circles?
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01fdj/
do not know if she actually claims it, or it is suggested as such in searches.
gorgeous images on it, but no reference to the child in blue with a dog being by O'Gorman. The same site does have one of the christina garden images on it, credited (sort of) correctly so i think its picking up that tag line and putting it against all the images in google search. Very nice images though...
-
There was a Sybil Miles living in Kings Weston near Bristol around that time. She was the wife of Philip Napier Miles, and was born Sybil Marguerite Gonse de Hochepied Larpent in Brighton in 1868. So she would have been a contemporary of Mervyn O'Gorman in Brighton during his childhood.
thats very tantalising. Mervyn didn't spend much time in Brighton as a child, the family were in Warwickshire by April 1873, but the family could easily have kept in touch with their brighton friends...
the Larpent/Melvill, Sybils parents families, lived at 27 Palmeira Square, Brighton, and the Rasch family lived at 25 Palmeira Sq, so looks possible that Mervyn's wife Florence Rasch and Sybil Larpent/Miles were childhood neighbours.
Sybil & Phillip Miles lived at Kings Weston House, Bristol, designed by Vanbrugh. Looks gorgeous, and I did look to see if the gardens could be the source of the 'Christina' garden images. doesn't seem so, but what does eveyone else think ?
http://kingswestonhouse.co.uk/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kings_Weston_House
Its all very intriguing.
-
Does he look like Mervyn to you?This was taken in 1913 near Kingsweston house.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/brizzlebornandbred/4652195325/in/faves-kwag/
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/8f/aa/04/8faa0434fbc3a4ca62808ebac79efbf0.jpg
-
I think you have found the Links which attribute the pics. to O'Gorman (page) whereas I linked to the pics. only.
Whilst looking, I found an O'Gorman photograph of Bernard Law Montgomery in the 1930's. a fine photograph.
-
Does he look like Mervyn to you?This was taken in 1913 near Kingsweston house.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/brizzlebornandbred/4652195325/in/faves-kwag/
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/8f/aa/04/8faa0434fbc3a4ca62808ebac79efbf0.jpg
Have to say it doesn't look like him to me, but certainy intriguing....
Whilst looking, I found an O'Gorman photograph of Bernard Law Montgomery in the 1930's. a fine photograph.
do you have a link to the Montgomery photo ?
I'm currently looking at the nieces and great-nieces of Mervyn's wife Florence. There are several 2nd marriages, and one who ditched her novelist husband and ran off with the chauffuer. There are candidates in terms of date/age but no-one called Christina has cropped up yet...
-
The photographs I linked to previously were all accredited to Mervyn O'Gorman. I have no means of verification.
Here's two of him obviously taken by someone else. First is in early RAF uniform and second in Army uniform.
http://aerade.cranfield.ac.uk/arcarimages/his4.jpg.
https://c1.staticflickr.com/9/8233/8491721881_2187063304_b.jpg.
Found Montgomery on another website. This was accredited to Mervyn O'Gorman on original website where I first saw it.
http://media.iwm.org.uk/iwm/mediaLib/21/media-21242/large.jpg.
-
Florences brothers, sisters, nieces, nephews and great neices/nephews.
Florences father Arthur Augustus Rasch (1812-1879) married twice and had 6 children in total.
he married first Mary Letitia Warner (1817-1857) and had 3 sons, 2 daughters
i Arthur Warner (1842-1879)
m 1875 Georgina Fanny Cafe (1855-1893) had 1 daughter
Evelyn Mable Warner (1877-1967)
m 1898 William George Simpson (1873-1961) had 1 daughter
Enid Gladys (1900-?)
ii Frederick Charles (1843-1887)
m 1871 Henrietta Warner (1850-?) had 1 daughter
Mildred Alice Sothern (1879-1965)
m 1st 1897 Lewis Adolphus De Vic Carey (1871-1936) had 3 daughters, 1 son
div 1907
Winsome Joyce De Preaux (1897-1994)
Joan Mildred Elton (1900-1948)
John De Vic (1901-1992
Jocelyn Maureen (1903-2000)
m 2nd 1909 Frederick Collier (1863-1925)
no children
iii Mary Louisa (1845-1939)
m 1867 William Hegley Byas (1841-1910) had 3 sons
Lancelot Arthur William (1868-?)
m 1888 Violet Graham Stow (1867-1951)
Violet Mary Ethel (1889-?)
Phylis Kathleen Maud (1893-?)
Harry Louis (1869-1921)
Cyril Frederick (1870-1936)
iv Henry Augustus (1849-1869)
m 1893 Kate Jane Brown (1859-1928) had 1 son
Frederick Henry S (1895-1960)
m 1918 Katie Winifred Potter
v Florence Catherine (1854-1931)
m 1897 Mervyn Joseph Pius Gorman (1871-1958)
married secondly Emma Corbett (1822-1895) had 1 son
vi Edward William (1858-1888)
m 1877 Alice Jane West (1859-1913) had 1 daughter
Vera Irene (1882-1953)
m 1st 1899 Horace Wykeham Newte (1870-1949) had 1 daughter
Iris Lorna (1899-1900)
m 2nd 1917 Percy Charles T Keen (1892-?)
?
So far there are 6 vaguely possible contenders for 'Christina', so if anyone can find any photos of any of them that would be good :)
I can't find a marriage for either Harry Louis Byas (1869-1921) or Cyril Frederick Byas (1870-1936). Cyril dies in South Africa in 1936, and both he and his two brothers seem to make regular trips to south africa and rhodesia so its possible that marriages & births happened there. Harry dies at his mothers house in Bath, sadly from a self inflicted gun shot wound, and the newspaper reports into his death make no mention of a wife or children. There are reports that Cyril married Violet Wilhelmina Chapman (posssibly Wilhelmina Violet) and had a son, but can't find anything official...can anyone else find anything ?
-
The marriage certificate for Mervyn and Florence has arrived, they married April 19th 1897 at the British Vice Consulate in San Remo, Italy.
Mervyn Joseph Pius O'Gorman, 25, bachelor, electrical engineer, father Edmond Anthony O'Gorman gentleman/
Florence Catherine Rasch, 43, spinster, father Arthur Augusts Rasch underwriter Lloyds/
in the presence of John Congreve British Vice Consul, Charles Nile & Herbert A Dalton
-
the mystery has been solved ! The National Media Museum and curator Colin Harding will be revealing the answer shortly ! Looking forward to learning the end of the story :)
-
At last a result :) I'm also looking forward to what Colin Harding has to say. I hope it's definitive proof not some untested theory of his, I'll guess I have to wait and see
-
At last a result :) I'm also looking forward to what Colin Harding has to say. I hope it's definitive proof not some untested theory of his, I'll guess I have to wait and see
I'm hoping for the same. I thik he has probably solved it, as I suspect its a result of this http://blog.nationalmediamuseum.org.uk/2015/05/20/how-the-girl-in-red-from-a-1913-photo-became-a-social-media-starlet/
all still very intriguing ! :)
-
I was guessing that the girl in the black and white photo with the word Christina on top,left was not the same girl in the colour photos. I was thinking the nose and eyes and skin texture was different. Yet there was enough similarities to assume that it was the same girl and hence the girl in the colour photos was assumed to be the same. I'll guess I'll find out soon if I was correct.
-
The answer at last
http://www.amateurphotographer.co.uk/latest/photo-news/mystery-over-girl-featured-in-102-year-old-colour-photo-solved-53637
-
Another link with better pictures
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-3119976/The-mystery-lady-red-solved-Philosopher-s-daughter-died-without-marrying-34-years-ago-named-blonde-teen-ethereal-1913-colour-photos.html
Christina had no husband or children
-
https://www.google.co.nz/search?q=%22mervyn+o%27gorman%22&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0CAcQ_AUoAWoVChMIl7687byIxgIVQuKmCh1QHwC4&biw=979&bih=452#imgrc=edx4PVRyST0drM%253A%3Bg_UjLJINSRl6zM%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252F3.bp.blogspot.com%252F-iuu5oDU-gHI%252FVSQsVhgOIPI%252FAAAAAAABaS4%252Fo2JLCoDwS_s%252Fs1600%252FMervyn%25252BO%2525E2%252580%252599Gorman%2525E2%252580%252599s%25252BDaughter%25252Bin%25252B1913%25252B%282%29.jpg%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww.vintag.es%252F2015%252F04%252Frare-and-beautiful-color-portraits-of.html%3B1000%3B1374
Lady in Green? Also tagged as Christina - not quite as colourful as the 'red' ones. I just had to recheck this photograph as I though it might have been Ann.
I came across this one google searching, it doesn't seem to pop up with the famous red ones. I'm glad they found an answer.
-
Wonderful to have the answer ! After finding that Mervyn's book was dedicated to a neighbours wife, on a hunch I checked the neighbours in Embankment Gardens , but didn't check on Chelsea Embankment itself. Pleased to know her true identity, and to see the other images (and the Daily Mail STILL get the picnic & boat images the wrong way round !!)
-
Oddly enough, Edwyn Bevan's Wiki entry mentions two daughters but not named.
-
Christina Elizabeth Frances Bevan is found on a passenger list for New York, I don't have a ancestory.com account so can't get any more info
Maybe she had kids or got married over there
-
Christina Elizabeth Frances Bevan is found on a passenger list for New York, I don't have a ancestory.com account so can't get any more info
Maybe she had kids or got married over there
I have an ancestry a/c, and like you had a quick look to see what I could find. She does cross the Atlantic at least 4 times between 1947 and 1955......however when she passes away in 1981 it is under the name Bevan, so that would seem to imply she didn't marry.
-
kilkennylass your point about Christina still having her maiden name at death is correct...very unlikely she married.
It's kinda strange she never did marry, she was attractive and came from a rich family. Maybe she had a sweetheart that died during World War One. during the war she would of been a debutant and must of had suitors. She still has a nephew who still might be alive, maybe he knows ??
-
In the daily mail someone posted where Christina Nephew Died
SANDERS, Robert Francis - Age 76 on June 23rd in Ontario, Canada. Son of the late Charles Craven Sanders and Anne Cornelia Favell Sanders (Bevan). Beloved husband of Veronica and brother of Benita. Funeral service will be held on Saturday, June 28th at the Holy Trinity Church, Jocelyn Township, St. Joseph Island at 11 am. Rev. Rosalie Goos officiating. In lieu of flowers donations may be given to the Salvation Army. Arrangements entrusted to the BARTON & KITELEY FUNERAL HOME & CREMATION CENTRE,
No mention of any children .....so sadly no living relative might be the case
-
The fact that Christina made four trips to New York might be explained by the fact if she has a nephew living in Canada. New York is not too far away from where her nephew is buried and I assume lived.
-
What a wealth of information this long post has revealed.
Having checked the images of all recorded sailings made by Christina Elizabeth Frances Bevan,born Hendon Middx on 8th March 1897,
she actually made five all told ,one to the United States, in 1947 from a West London address, the other four from her retirement cottage at Stoke Hammond,Bletchley,Buckinghamshire,1950.1952,1954,1955.
All travelling alone,no occupation or marital status listed,presume unmarried.
-
Brionne do you have the addresses of these properties
-
I thought that the o'gorman family was interesting but the Bevan family is way more interesting. they were rich via Christina's grandfather being a partner in Barcleys Bank. Her grandfather on her mother side was Baron Radstoke
-
Some background to Christina's family. 17th and 18th Century Welsh Quakers and Barclays Bank.
First Wiki, yesterday someone has amended to show Christina whereas previously just said two daughters, then a family website.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edwyn_Bevan.
http://rth.org.uk/collections/bevan-dewar-letters/bevans-dewars/bevans,
-
this is all as fascinating as the original search ! Apart from the Atlantic crossings, haven't found much else about Christina yet. After London the family moved to Surrey (odd fact about that at the end of this post !) and an archive search of the Surrey Mirror newspaper does bring up some articles about the famiy, the mothers death and burial, Annes wedding, and Mr Bevan selling his lawnmower but nothing so far specifically about Christina.
What a wealth of information this long post has revealed.
Having checked the images of all recorded sailings made by Christina Elizabeth Frances Bevan,born Hendon Middx on 8th March 1897,
she actually made five all told ,one to the United States, in 1947 from a West London address, the other four from her retirement cottage at Stoke Hammond,Bletchley,Buckinghamshire,1950.1952,1954,1955.
All travelling alone,no occupation or marital status listed,presume unmarried.
You've got the same as I have, my thought was that Anne & her youngest child move back from Canada, but Robert stayed for some reason and thus the family make fairly frequent trips to visit him. Anne and the 3 children travel to Canada in July 1940, and only Anne & Benita travel back in 1949. If the Canadian obit Mako mentions is correct it does seem he stays there. Annes eldest child, Juliet, sadly passes away aged 15 in Toronto in Dec 1943.
Theres a record of annes husband re-marrying in 1947, can't find any divorce though....can anyone else confirm/double check ?
Anne Cornelia Bevan marries Charles Craven Sanders (b dublin Dec 1899 d london 1985?) in London in 1926 (theres a lovely newspaper article describing her dress).
They have 3 children Juliet Cornelia (b Reigate 1928 d Toronto 1943), Robert (b Reigate 1931 d Ontario 2007), Benita Elizabeth (b Reigate 1935 d ?).
There is a death record for Charles Craven Sanders dated May 1985 (from The Times) but the spouse is listed as Marjorie Sanders. there is a marriage between Charles Craven Sanders and Marjorie Armitage (widowed, nee Smith) in 1947 but i can't ascertain if this is Anne's husband remarrying
As i mentioned, after London Christina and her family moved to Reigate, Surrey.....and you'll never guess where I live. in fact I'm sitting typing this less than 1/4 mile from where they lived ;)
-
Left a bit of money:
https://probatesearch.service.gov.uk/Calendar?surname=bevan&yearOfDeath=1981&page=2#calendar
-
Looks like a nice home, I wonder who she gave her money too
-
I'm trying to find educational records for Christina. I'm assuming that with her father being an academic at Kings College, London she might of attended this university. But there's no mention of her from a list of graduates up to 1936. Three possibilities are that her father was a bigot and didn't believe in education for girls, or she attended another university, or she was not academically gifted
Kilkennylas can you give me the street address in reigate and the year that Christina moved there. On a personnel note I was a PCSO in Dorking for 4 years ( I now have left surrey police and live back in NZ) which is the next town to Reigate. So I know the town well I had to take many a person to the Nick in Reigate.
-
In today's money Christina left 852,200 pounds in her will
I used http://www.measuringworth.com/ukcompare/relativevalue.php to derive at calculation
In today's money she was close to being a millionaire and this way before property prices in England took off.
So its highly unlikely the total value of her wealth was just based on the value of her home. She must of had a few other investments, I think she might of inherited some wealth.
You can view here property via this link
<iframe src="https://www.google.com/maps/embed?pb=!1m0!3m2!1sen!2snz!4v1434176464234!6m8!1m7!1saoIYPXkfKUfZ__u7tVMHrA!2m2!1d51.958672!2d-0.721196!3f221.20067939637022!4f4.0797730236815255!5f0.7820865974627469" width="800" height="600" frameborder="0" style="border:0"></iframe>
-
Christina's father obituary
DR. EDWYN BEVAN CLASSICAL SCHOLAR AND HISTORIAN Dr. Edwyn Bevan, O.B.E., F.B.A., who die' in London yesterday at the age of 73, was a man of varied gifts, a classical scholar and archaeologist, a student of the philosophy of religion and especially of Christianity, and an observer of contemporary politics. To The Times he contributed letters chiefly on Indian and foreign policy which revealed judgment, knowledge, and grasp of affairs, combined with the detachment of a philosophic historian; and he had been a frequent contributor to The Times LiterarS' Supplement. Born on February 15, 1870, Edwyn Robert Bevan was the seventh son of the 16 children born to Mr. Robert Cooper Lee Bevan, of Trent Park, Middlesex, and Fosbury House, Wilts. Like his brother, the late Anthony Ashley Bevan, Lord Almoner's Professor of Arabic at Oxford, he was an exception among the large clan of Bevans, who have been for the most part' country gentlemen with banking and other financial interests. He was educated at Cheam, Monkton Combe, and New College, Oxford, of which he was later elected an honorary fellow. After traveling in India he worked at the British School in Athens in' 1894, and took part in excavations at Alexandria in 1895. In the war of 1914 he worked successively in the Propaganda Department, in the Department of Information, and in the Political Intelligence Department of the Foreign Office. From 1922 to 1933 Bevan was lecturer on Hellenistic history and literature at King's College, London. For this work he was admirably qualified, for he had made an early reputation with his " House of Seleucus" and had followed that success up with other studies in the history, religion, and philosophy of the pre-Christian and post-Christian East; during. the tenure of his lectureship he wrote a history of Egypt under the Ptolemies and contributed to the Cambridge histories of the Ancient World and of India. In 1932 he wrote the volume on Christianity for the Home University Library; and in 1938 there appeared' his " Symbolism and Belief " which he had taken as the subject of his Gifford lectures. It is hardly possible here to enumerate all his books, which were those of an exceptionally well equipped scholar of remarkably wide range;, but it should be recorded that he also translated in English verse more than one of the plays of Aeschyltus. Last year he collected into a volume a number of poems which he had written at various times. Dr. Bevan was an honorary D.Litt (0xford) and LL.D.(St. Andrews). He married in 1896 the Hon. Mary Waldegrave, daughter of the 'third Baron Radstock. She died in 1935. There were two daughters of the marriage.
-
Another obituary in the times for Christina's father
DR. EDWYN BEVAN AN APPRECIATION The Rev. H. K. Archdall, Principal of St. David's College, Lampeter, writes :- The death of Edwyn Bevan is irreparable to many, and the loss to the Church and the country of his learned and sagacious judgment is likely to become apparent. No one else could have written the remarkable volume entitled " Christianity " in the Home University Library and it is good to know that it is a " best seller." I can testify'to its value in Australia and New Zealand in creating,an atmosphere in which the antitheses of church history can be changed into complementariness. It was the complete honesty of his mind, combined with his deep personal Christian faith, which made him so stimulating a companion and so reliable a counsellor. Neither his classical rearning nor his philosophical ability were to him, of primary importance: all was secondary to bis Christian conviction: he knew all. the currents of contemporary theological thought, but held to his own steadfast faith, which was based more on the historical character of the Christian Revelation than on aught else.' He was a layman of whom the Church of England may be proud, though he had many contacts, through the late Baron F. von Hugjel and through the Student Christian Movement, with other modes of thought and practice. The book he published during the war of 1914-18 about the German colonies in Africa was based on a unique knowledge of the facts and should be reread today; his advice.given in The Times in 1937 about the problem of being fair both to Arabs and Jews in Palestine was both realistic and challenging. There will be many men in prominent positions in India. who will look back to the time when he invited Indian students to his house in Chelsea and sought to make them feel at home. His recent book entitled " Christians in a World at War " must have helped many to keep their feet on the ground and their heads erect. As a reviewer of books he was a model of charity combined with loyalty to fact and truth; of him it can truly be said Nilil teiigit qruod non ornavir.
-
Christina Father left an estate of net worth of 56000 pounds in 1943
Comparative value in today's money range from 2.2 million to 10 million pounds
-
Still so excited at the amount of information that has come to light unraveling this post.
The address for Christina on four of her sailings to Canada is,,,,,
Swan Cottage,Stoke Hammond, Bletchley, Bucks.
Was hesitant to post this initially as her death was only in 1981,[RootsChat has a privacy policy after 1911]
Appears to be an old thatch cottage in the area of Church Rd,behind a high hedge,still stands,ie Google Earth,possibly the one.
Brionne.
-
Christina Niece Banita Sanders matches this profile rather well
http://www.rcip-chin.gc.ca/application/aac-aic/artiste_detailler_bas-artist_detail_bas.app;jsessionid=750473CD49191E286688EB65C13D1190?rID=14461&fID=2&lang=en&qlang=en&pID=912&ps=50&sort=AM_ASC
This could be the last living link to Christina
-
Today I spoke to Benita Sanders who is Christina Niece. She has informed me that multiple people had already contacted her about her aunt. She was not keen to talk and respecting her right to privacy I kept my conversation to a minimum. However she did tell me several points
She did state that Christina was very intelligent and was a wonderful person. She clearly had fond memories about her aunt. She also stated that both her mother and aunt would be amazed about how they had become a interest in the British news papers.
She did conform that her aunt was buried in Stoke Hammond but after telling me this she politely asked to end the conversation stating she didn't have anything more to say about her family. Respecting her right to privacy I didn't want to push the issue. I did manage to inform about her how her aunt and mother had been discovered.
I will not be making any more attempts to contact her in the future. I also will be ending my search for Christina and her life. I now know what her name is and where she lived and died. I am satisfied with the information I have and will let her lie in peace.
Kind Regards to every who helped in this search and a special mention on Kilkennylass who made an incredible effort to find Christina. I do find the O'Gorman and Bevan family inspirational and so many members of their extended family had achieved success in there respected fields of study.
Clive
-
I've traded emails with Benita over the last couple of days too, the contents of which I will not be making public. For me its a perfect, respectful end to that avenue of the story and I'm glad that Christinas closest relative knows of the affection and respect that so many people around the world have for the gorgeous images of her aunt and mother.
There are a couple of loose ends on the O'Gorman side which I'd like to tie up, one of which is confirming the location of the garden images, which I'm sure are Rempstone Hall, and should be able to confirm tomorrow when I research O'Gormans unpublished images in the RPS collection at the NMM....i'll let you all know.
This has all been a tremendous amount of fun :)
-
It is Rempstone Hall, I've no doubt.
Visually, you can see what looks like the right area from Google Earth.
But the clincher is that Christina's mother's mother was born there!
-
It is Rempstone Hall, I've no doubt.
Visually, you can see what looks like the right area from Google Earth.
But the clincher is that Christina's mother's mother was born there!
I'm convinced it is too, even if the family connection wasn't a clincher I know there are unpublsihed O'Gorman images in the RPS collection titled 'Rempstone' so he was certainly there at some point ! Can't wait to see them, there are also images of his wife, and something about a donkey too !
-
One thing I was pondering, was whether the patio with water feature was still there. Looking at the sattelite picture it may just be. See the swimming pool, now come back towards the house. There appears to be a patio with a water feature partially in shadow. Can't see the low wall and steps though.
I don't know whether there's someone local who could gain access with a camera and a printout of Christina sitting on the edge of the water feature and compare.
-
One thing I was pondering, was whether the patio with water feature was still there. Looking at the sattelite picture it may just be. See the swimming pool, now come back towards the house. There appears to be a patio with a water feature partially in shadow. Can't see the low wall and steps though.
I don't know whether there's someone local who could gain access with a camera and a printout of Christina sitting on the edge of the water feature and compare.
well spotted Regorian, the steps could be closer to the house and masked by the house shadow. There are some aeriel images of the Hall from 1952 but i can't make anything out http://www.britainfromabove.org.uk/asearch?search=rempstone%20hall
i viewed all the O'Gorman images in the RPS collection yesterday, and there are unpublished ones taken in the garden, however they are all the same angle and don't give any additional info. They are dated 1913 but make not mention of location. Having viewed the original autochrome I can now say that the attached is the correct way round, basically everyone myself included had it the wrong way round !
-
Hopefully, someone can gain access with a camera. Rempstone Hall is available for rent at £4,000 PW, cough.
It won't look identical now regardless of 100 years weathering. The Hall was occupied by the Army during WWII. Whilst the property would have been treated with respect, it was inevitable that some damage would have been done.
-
How did Mervyns wife look like?We dug so much into her and her family I am curious :P
-
I've been looking but found nothing. Don't take these dates as gospel, because the many web entries and blogs etc. on Mervyn which mention her give slightly different dates, albeit a year two. Her dates were 1854 to 1931. She was some 16 years older than Mervyn. Married 1897. She would have been 21 in 1875, which puts her in perspective. In 1913 she would have been 59, Mervyn 43.
A few bits and pieces, Mervyn, electrical and aeronautical engineer was superintendant of the Royal Balloon Factory/RAE Farnborough. Relieved about 1916 for poor quality control in aircraft production for the RFC, he was retained as advisor. His technical qualifications and expertise were not in doubt.
At some point he was appointed Lieutenant Colonel, Royal Engineers. No doubt to show his position and authority at Farnborough and elsewhere. I posted a pic. Link earlier but there are sharper images to be found. I also posted a Link to (supposedly) him in RAF uniform.
His ideas on road safety were included in the the first Highway Code.
-
How did Mervyns wife look like?We dug so much into her and her family I am curious :P
There was one image of Florence in the RPS archives. A bromide print, dated 1913, showed head & shoulders of her in right profile. Dark background, but she was facing a window which illuminated her face. Hair in a bun or pleat, wearing a white shirt with high collar, and bow or ruffles on the front. Very soft features, which might be due to the 'diffused'look of the overall image, but certainly nothing rigid or stuffy, nor angular or prominent about her. Beautiful print.
I have done an extensive google images search, but can't find it online anywhere.
One thing that struck me when looking at the collection as a whole, was that every image was dated 1913. Not a single other date came up, which got me wondering if these were just a small number of his images. Maybe all his '1913' work was in a box which ended up at the RPS, and other boxes of other years work lie in an attic or junk shop somewhere. Here's hoping they come to light some day :)
-
How did Mervyns wife look like?We dug so much into her and her family I am curious :P
There was one image of Florence in the RPS archives. A bromide print, dated 1913, showed head & shoulders of her in right profile. Dark background, but she was facing a window which illuminated her face. Hair in a bun or pleat, wearing a white shirt with high collar, and bow or ruffles on the front. Very soft features, which might be due to the 'diffused'look of the overall image, but certainly nothing rigid or stuffy, nor angular or prominent about her. Beautiful print.
I have done an extensive google images search, but can't find it online anywhere.
One thing that struck me when looking at the collection as a whole, was that every image was dated 1913. Not a single other date came up, which got me wondering if these were just a small number of his images. Maybe all his '1913' work was in a box which ended up at the RPS, and other boxes of other years work lie in an attic or junk shop somewhere. Here's hoping they come to light some day :)
I really hope they put the pictures up onto their achieves someday.Would love to see them myself :)And yes there must be more of his pictures somewhere out there.I wonder how the slides ended up to the guy(his father-in-law) though.
Anyways,I am happy that the mystery has been solved and happy with what we have today regarding Christina.
A holiday in England would be lovely,Been to most of European countries but never to the UK :-[ maybe next summer :D
-
Hi I am a new member, I have been fascinated by early photography for a very long time , but most importantly by autochromes there is something very ethereal and almost a celestial energy that radiates from autochromes, like we are exciting in a timeless permanent now. My interests with autochromes began when I watched a documentary about one of the early masters of autochrome Albert kahn, and was enchanted by the photography that was produce about a century ago but almost looked contemporary but paradoxically the color and shading of the photos gave a dream like quality a more beautiful reality than our everyday perciced reality.
So when I witness mervyn o'gorman photos of of Christiana in early may of this year in the mail online I was speechless by the beauty of the photos it made me very nostalgic for that era also 1913 was a very iconic year nothing was the same after 1913 partially because of the great war and also because of many social changes, I often call 1913 the last year of the old world the photos are almost like a farewell postcard from old England. I could never in million years with my digital camera produce a photo like Mervyn o’ gorman photos I am fascinated by how he used the effect of light and shade so perfectly. When I found out it was in August 1913 I studied the meteorological conditions for August 1913 and found out the weather was very still and anticyclonic weather there was probably some misty hazy conditions around coast, I often find as a amateur photographer anticyclonic weather in late summer and early autumn is often the most conducive time of year to producing my best photo's the probable reason great combination of delicate light and shade, there is often a soft golden glow in late summer and early autumn. which gives the horizon a dream like appearance
I was very happy and excited to find out the true identity of Christina and also very grateful, but feel I have open a book and have just read the prologue to this woman's life she is from a remarkable family on her maternal side they were barons and baronesses , on her paternal side one of the founders of the modern banking system and also scholars of the highest order I would imagine that she had a full and interesting life.
One last point the two black and white bromide prints look like different girls they have different eyes, nose and also a different jaw shape, is the girl in the roll neck jumper in the bromide black white print Anne her sister.
-
Past100, it was quite an adventure trying to find out who Christina was, and odd to think people around the world being bought together due to 102 year old grains of dyed potato starch !
The b&w print of the girl in the jumper was captioned by O'Gorman as being Christina, and if you flip either of the portraits on the horizontal then the facial features match up quite well.
All the best, and welcome to rootschat :)
-
Thank you very much Kilkennlass for clarifying the issue about the The b&w print, and also for welcoming me to rootschat
-
I can confirm that the picture by the garden pool was taken at Rempstone. It is just visible - half in sunlight below the swimming pool in this google maps shot - https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@50.6408214,-2.0139619,182m/data=!3m1!1e3 (https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@50.6408214,-2.0139619,182m/data=!3m1!1e3) , and this is how it looks today - (the steps are to the right, I think the statue has been turned in the interim)
actually - looking at it - I'm sure the O'Gorman photo should be flipped left-> right.
-
Excellent to have confirmation, thank you justareply ! You are correct about the original image being published (numerous times !) the wrong way round. The correct orientation is with Christina on the left, pond on the right (as attached). It is often difficult with Autochrome images to determine the correct orientation, unless there is something obvious like writing !
I was convinced, as were most people, it was Rempstone Hall, but couldn't find a way to confirm it so thanks again for letting us know, and helping put one of the final 'mysteries' to rest :)
-
Welcome justareply. good photograph have you any photos of the steps in the garden. I believe I have photo of christina's grandmother on her mother's side in this link
http://www.gogmsite.net/early_victorian_-_1837_-_18/1861-20-july-baroness-radst.html
-
Welcome justareply. good photograph have you any photos of the steps in the garden. I believe I have photo of christina's grandmother on her mother's side in this link
http://www.gogmsite.net/early_victorian_-_1837_-_18/1861-20-july-baroness-radst.html
That is a lovley photo of Christinas maternal grandmother. She was born Susan Charlottle Calcraft at Rempstone Hall in 1833, and baptised in the parish of Corfe Castle on 8th November of that year. She married Granville Augustus William Waldegrave, 3rd Baron Radstock in London on 16th June 1858 and thus became Baroness Radstock. They had 9 children, of which the youngest was Mary, Christinas mother.
It is a fascinating family....I've just ordered a book called 'The Calcrafts of Rempstone' which I'm looking forward to reading :)