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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Lanarkshire => Topic started by: annmck on Thursday 26 August 10 14:13 BST (UK)
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Hi all!
I'm hoping someone may be able to help me with my 4xgt grandfather, John CHRISTIE
As stated in a related thread, on his daughter Janet's 1841 immigration papers, her parents are recorded as John Christie & Janet Stewart, of High Street, Glasgow, and her father's occupation is given as Criminal Officer.
The 1851 census shows a John Christie 59, Detective Efficer (sic) Police, at 15 Nicholas Street, Glasgow (St Paul). There is no mention of his wife, Janet, but his niece, Ellison Swan, abt 20, a dressmaker, and his (grt?-error?) grandaughter Janet Orr, abt 12, are residing in the household as well. According to this census entry John was born in Dumbarton, Perthshire abt 1792.
The archivist at Mitchell Library, Glasgow, has searched the index of Glasgow police service records for the name John Christie (& variants) without success. It seems that personnel records only survive from the mid 1850s onwards, and, disappointingly, John's is not amongst them :(
I'm hoping someone recognises some of these people, or has some inspiration as to where I can track down more info about them. John & Janet's daughter, Janet, my gt gt gt grandmother, died in NSW at 1848, aged abt 29, leaving 3 small chn.
Cheers, Ann
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Have you tried to find his death record?
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Hi Ann
Not sure if you have these. From IGI, these are some of the children showing to a John Christie and Janet Stewart:
1. JANET CHRISTIE Christening: 19 MAY 1816 Killin, Perth also 29 MAY 1816 Killin, Perth (both actual extract, not sure about why two entries with slightly different dates)
2. MALCOM CHRISTIE Birth: 30 JAN 1819 Glasgow
3. WILLIAM CHRISTIE Christening: 04 MAY 1822 Glasgow - member submitted
4. CATHERINE CHRISTIE Birth: 04 JUN 1826 Glasgow
The Health Warning always when doing parent searches on IGI is that the entries may relate to more than one couple, which may not always be clear. People did move around counties, but whether your John Christie and Janet were married in Killin and then moved to the Glasgow area is hard to say :-\
Monica
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If it is the right family, someone has transcribed the OPR entry for Malcom's birth:
CHRISTIE :
John CHRISTIE, Watchman & Janet STEWART a Law: Son Malcom (no 2nd.L)
Bo: 30th January Wit. John McDONALD & George GORDON
www.mail-archive.com/lanark-l@rootsweb.com/msg02149.html
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Have you tried the Glasgow Police Museum ?
http://www.policemuseum.org.uk/
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Hi again,
and thanks for your ideas
Sancti: I've looked at the usual online sites for John's death cert but I don't know if he stayed in Glasgow or retired to the country, or have a clue where/when he died, so I don't have enough details yet to make an educated guess.....& there are a heck of a lot of John Christies in Scotland at that time!!
I'm also in Australia, so reliant on distance mode research.... :P
Monica: Thank you too :)..... now, unless you just happened upon Malcolm's birth info by chance ;), I guess you went to some trouble to dig it out from the rootsweb archive for me, which is much appreciated.
In an earlier post, Christies in Killin, I speculated that these may have been my John & Janet & family, and using that premise tentatively "pencilled" Malcom (sic) & Catherine to my tree, but, as you say, it's so easy to force the pieces to fit the puzzle :-\
Falkyrn: Thanks for your suggestion of the Glasgow Police Museum which was my initial thought, too. They were actually the ones who referred me to the Mitchell Library archives..... as that's where historical police records are now kept, as it turns out...
I did have flash of inspiration after reading another "can't find 'em" thread, which led to the discovery that NSW State Library provides reader cardholders access to the GALE database.
V.v.v.v. late last night/this morning, (ESTime), I managed to locate a no. of references to John Christie, criminal officer, in Glasgow Herald Justiciary Court reports.......so guess what I'm reading tonight ;D
2 more things....
Malco(l)m's birth record shows John's occupation as watchman-(still early in his career, obviously)- but his wife, Janet Stewart, has the notation at Law,after her name..... does this describe her marital status or does it have another meaning?
In Australia, many of our city & regional newspapers have also been digitised, and are held in the National Library of Australia. They are available, to search/view free online, at
http://newspapers.nla.gov.au/
Again, thanks and don't be shy to offer suggestions, Ann
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There is this record for 1841 census which might be a closer occupation to police work than a watchman although the age is out.
Name: John Christie
Age: 57
Estimated birth year: abt 1784
Where born: Scotland
Civil parish: Kinnoull
County: Perthshire
Address: Village Of Bingend
Occupation: Superinte Of Excise
William Ferrall 25
Alexis Ann Ferrall 20
John Christie 57
Jane Christie 20
Mary Christie 11
Catherine Robertson 25
Dumbarton is not within Perthshire so the 1851 mention is confusing.
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Hi Ann
Regarding the OPR transcription: CHRISTIE :John CHRISTIE, Watchman & Janet STEWART a Law: Son Malcom (no 2nd.L) Bo: 30th January Wit. John McDONALD & George GORDON
Without having seen the original, I would guess in the style of these entries, that you have something like, Malcom, lawful son (second born) to John and Janet - the lawful son implies that the couple were married rather than an illegitimate birth. Also, depending on the style of the register, you often got a birth order such as showing above, ie. 3rd born, 4th born etc... Helpful, when it comes up as you can tell if you have missed one!
Monica
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The 1851 census shows a John Christie 59, Detective Efficer (sic) Police, at 15 Nicholas Street, Glasgow (St Paul). There is no mention of his wife, Janet, but his niece, Ellison Swan, abt 20, a dressmaker, and his (grt?-error?) grandaughter Janet Orr, abt 12, are residing in the household as well. According to this census entry John was born in Dumbarton, Perthshire abt 1792.
Did this information come from the actual image of the 1851 census or was it via Ancestry's transcriptions ?
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Likely Ancestry, from what I can see Falkryn.
Monica
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I think this is a definite case for looking at the original census record.
The Dumbarton Perthshire recording is the first inkling and secondly the St Pauls reference after Nicholas Street - I don't know of a St Pauls registration District and as Nicholas Street was (is) just off of High Street it was more likely to come under College or either Inner or Outer High areas depending on which census. Checking the 1851 index again throws up a blank as there are no entries which match this Ancestry entry.
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Falkyrn, this is the Ancestry transcription
Name: John Christie
Age: 59
Estimated birth year: abt 1792
Relationship: Head
Gender: Male
Where born: Dumbarton, Perthshire
Parish Number: 644/1
Civil parish: Glasgow St Paul
County: Lanarkshire
Address: 15 Nicholas St
Occupation: Detective Efficer Of Police
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Name: John Christie
Age: 59
Estimated birth year: abt 1792
Relationship: Head
Gender: Male
So far so good.
Where born: Dumbarton, Perthshire
Given the obvious disparity here it needs to be checked
Parish Number: 644/1
644 is certainly Glasgow and post 1855 644/01 is the Central District.
Civil parish: Glasgow St Paul
County: Lanarkshire
I still cannot find St Paul amongst my list of Parishes or registration Districts and I thought I knew most of the churches in the central area
Address: 15 Nicholas St
Nicholas Street still exists although nothing from that time period remains. The street runs parallel to George Street and runs from High Street to Shuttle Street.
Occupation: Detective Efficer Of Police
I've seen them called worse ;)
To have been a detective officer in those days spoke highly of the way the man would have been regarded by senior officers in the Force especially to be still there at 59 yrs of age. The first detective was appointed in 1819 and there was considerable opposition to the use of "plain clothes" fearing that persons so appointed would be tempted by the criminals with whom they would be mixing. On the uniform side of things there was a constantly high turnover of personnel as officers were dismissed.
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If Perthshire is correct I think this may be the correct place of birth
http://perthshire.blogspot.com/2007/12/dunbarney-perthshire-scotland.html
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With regard to St Pauls, I found this
http://canmore.rcahms.gov.uk/en/site/168949/details/glasgow+16+22+shuttle+street/
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With regard to St Pauls, I found this
http://canmore.rcahms.gov.uk/en/site/168949/details/glasgow+16+22+shuttle+street/
It's certainly in the right area, if that was the Mission Hall I wonder where the actual church building was located.
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1851 census area Outer High
John Christie age 59 Widower living at 15 Nicholson Street, detective officer of Police
also present
Alison Swan age 20 Neice
Janet Orr age 12 Grandchild
John's place of birth , possibly Dunblane in Perthshire
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1861 map shows St Pauls church in John Street near the junction with George Street
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1861 map shows St Pauls church in John Street near the junction with George Street
I wonder where Ancestry added this detail from as it is not on the image available from SP which clearly shows the area as Outer High
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SP index only has 1 baptism
12/05/1800 CHRISTIE JOHN son of WM. CHRISTIE at DUNBLANE /PERTH
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Mornin' all,
Good grief!! I wake up this morning to a mine of information unearthed in a twinkling by that triumvirate of lateral thinkers, Falkyrn, Monica & Sancti. Thank you all again, kind ones.
Falkyrn, can you tell me where you located the (SP ???) census image? It's so legible that I wonder about the mistranscription on Ancestry....and since I do refer to Ancestry to a large extent (though not exclusively) I wonder if that's a common occurrence.......(btw, in the Anc. Tr. there's no mention of John as a widower, so you've narrowed down Janet's death date for me too :-*)
I'm plumping for Dunblaine as J's birthplace too- it seems very probable if the census is accurate, although if Sancti could only find an 1800 baptism date, (J. born abt 1792) it makes you wonder if the parent/s were; a) lazy, b) forgetful, c) uninterested or d) caught on the hop with a prem. birth out of their parish...... so many questions ;)
I've downloaded & scrutinised Glasgow maps & images, but must find a parish map, as the Par. refs. are meaningless without one. Falkyrn, you are a keen bean to be able to pull ref. nos. & related info out of your head like that.......
I learnt from the High Court of Justiciary cases mentioned in the Glasgow Herald that John also provided details of the "panel's" (ie the accused's) previous charges & convictions at trials, so I may try to access the relevant trial papers for more detail
.......which leads me to an interesting point......
John & Janet's daughter, Janet, arrived in NSW in 1841. 3 years later she gave birth to a daughter, the father of whom was George Wilson, of Airdrie, (weaver->indoor servant->butler) a Glasgow convict about the same age as her father. George (whose trial papers I've ordered) was convicted for forgery on 27 Sep 1837 at ...wait for it..... the High Court of Justiciary in Glasgow :o
Had John & George's paths crossed? Was young Janet acquainted with him in Scotland? Her cousin Ellison Swan and niece, Janet Orr were born in Airdrie....
George had a tattooed ring on his wedding ring finger, so may have left a wife behind....certainly he & Janet didn't marry in NSW.......in fact she married another convict after G's daughter's birth, had 2 more chn & died Nov 1848.....but I wonder about the coincidence, particularly as George maintained arelationship of some sort with his daughter, and consented to her marriage in 1863.... intriguing, non?
Ann
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There are 2 John Christie deaths on the SP index for Glasgow 1 in 1851 and 1 in 1854. It might be worth looking at them to see if there is any more info recorded.
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Did you check to see when George arrived in NSW and was it assisted passage ;D
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Sancti:
Assisted by the Government, my dear... :-[ :-[
He was transported for life, arriving in NSW in 1838 aboard the Lord Lyndoch, after being convicted on 27 Sep 1837 at Glasgow High Court of Justiciary.
There are a couple of things which strike me...
1) George was, according to his Glasgow court record, a weaver from Aidrie, which is where Janet Orr and Alison/Ellison Snow were born..... hmmmm......and...
2) according to his convict record, George was an indoor servant.
Did he have a change of occupation in Scotland, or was he employed as a servant only after he arrived in Australia. Certainly he went on to become a butler/caretaker in the household of Major Archibald Innes at Port Macquarie NSW in the 1840s
SO, was there some kind of prior acquaintance between George & the Christie family ???..... I wonder....
Thoughts??
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One question always open the door to many more ;)
Regarding maps, have a look at these links for Scottish Parish Maps and Counties:
www.scotlandsfamily.com/parish-maps.htm
www.scotlandsfamily.com/county-map.htm
Monica
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Thanks, Monica :D
Very useful!!
Ann
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Hi
A John Christie was one of three police who gave evidence against a man called John Millar in 1829. John Christie, Police Criminal Officer in Glasgow, resided at Deanside Lane Glasgow. He had known Millar in his police role for four years - I presume in Glasgow.
Reference AD14/29/264, Precognition for John Millar in Stockwell Street.
Hope this helps.Gay
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Oh wheeo,
Thank you very much for that...I was so surprised & pleased to see your post, as progress on John had really slowed to a tiny trickle! What a bonus to have his 1829 address!
I'll seek out the John Millar precognition asap. :)
Were Gruer McGruer & Donald McLean the other 2 police who gave evidence against John Millar, do you know? They & John Christie were described as the 3 principal Criminal Officers, and they were signatories to the 1831 criminal statistic data enumeration. It was part of the"Enumeration of the inhabitants of the city of Glasgow and county of Lanark, for the government census of 1831: with population and statistical tables relative to England and Scotland" (by James Cleland LL D January 1, 1831).
Cheers,
Ann
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Dear Ann
The three police officers in the case of John Millar were:
"Gruer McGruer, now of lately the criminal police officer in Glasgow, and now or lately residing in Saracens Lane, Gallowgate of Glasgow
Alexander Stewart, now of lately the criminal police officer in Glasgow, and now or lately residing in Hutcheson Street of Glasgow
John Christie, now of lately the criminal police officer in Glasgow, and now or lately residing in Deanside Lane in or near Glasgow"
There was also initial statements from
George Ritchie now or lately keeper of the Bridewell at Paisley in the country of Renfrew and
Neil White, now of lately police Officer in Paisley, and now of lately residing in High Street of Paisley aforesaid.
John Millar was a "thief by habite and repute" and carried out a significant theft in Stockwell Street Glasgow. He was found guilty and transported to Sydney Australia for life.
The statement in the Precognition of John Millar made by John Christie reflected his knowledge as to the character of John Millar.
"Declares that he has known John Millar for about four years. That Millar associates with thieves, has been in custody on charges of theft and bears the character of a thief, but has never been convicted here tho' the Declarant has heard that he was convicted before the Sheriff in Greenock.(signed John Christie)."
This was similar to the statement by Gruer McGruer.
The pages are very large and too difficult to copy as a multipage document. The file is also too big to send a picture of what I think is John Christie's signature from the Precognition record for John Millar. If I can PDF it in the next few days I will post in on this site.
Regards Gay
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Gay, that is so kind. Thanks for making the offer.
John C intrigues me. I've not been able to find a death for him or wife Janet Stewart/Stewart, or been able to work out the precise nature of the relationship between him and the Swan & Orr families, whose daughters were residing with him in 1851.
A Malcolm Christie, coalminer, was residing (with Swans & a 7 yo John Christie) in the house of his aunt, Isabella Gherkin, (mistranscribed Erskine?) in Clarkston in the 1851 census. As mentioned previously in this thread, IGI has an 1823 birth record for a Malcom (sic) Christie, parents John Christie & Janet Stewart. However, I can't find evidence for Isabella being a sister to John or Janet... ??? Cheers, Ann
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An excerpt from the Precognition with John Christie's signature at the bottom. Sorry all the content is not there.
Regards
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Hi,
Just read your thread with interest :)
Have no connection to any of the families , but had some free time to browse.
You mention that you are looking for a connection between John Christie and the Swan family and Janet Orr (granddaughter)
Firstly, there is a Janet Orr aged 2 on the 1841 Census which could be of interest-
Lanarkshire, New Monkland, Clarkston,
Arden
Archibald Orr age 25 Iron Miner born Lanarkshire
Margaret Christie age 20 "
Janet Orr age 2 "
James Orr age 3 mths "
Also found a marriage of a Margaret Chrystie to an Archibald Orr in Oct 1838 in New Monkland - https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XYWM-L86
Could this be a daughter of John's?
Also re. Isabella Erskine/Swan - her place of birth on 1851 Census is Strathfillan Perthshire. Granted this is not close to Dunblane (John's place of birth) but I wondered if there was a Perthshire link??
Lastly- Have you found John on 1841 Census - I've had a quick look but had no joy. And now I need to call my family history nosy-ing to a halt! Need to go to supermarket. ::)
Looby :)
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Gay, thank you for the precognition excerpt...it's now attached to John's media file, and I'm delighted to have it!
Looby, thank you for noseying! I appreciate the fresh eyes, heaven knows :) I had "pencilled in" as a possibility the Archibald & Margaret (Chrystie) Orr family, but haven't found a supporting birth for Margaret Chrystie/Christy/Christie with parents John & Janet (Stewart/Stuart).
And, no, I can't find John or wife Janet on either the Scottish OR English 1841 census! Their daughter, Janet, my 3xgtgrandmother, emigrated to Australia on the "Herald," which sailed from Greenock, Scotland, circa April 1841 and arrived in Sydney, NSW on 15 July 1841. Her migration papers record her parents names and address, but no mention is made of her mother being deceased. (Of course, she may have died after daughter Janet sailed). John is certainly widowed by the 1851 census.
Perthshire crops up with regularity in a no. of possible scenarios with this family.
Cheers!
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Hi again Ann,
What address did Janet give for her parents in 1841 please? Apologies if you noted it earlier in the thread but I couldn't see it.
Looby :)
Added - Silly me ! It's on the very first post. ::)
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Did you try contacting the police archives for further info on John Christie?
http://www.glasgowlife.org.uk/libraries/the-mitchell-library/archives/collections/police-archives/Pages/default.aspx
Glasgow - Records of Glasgow Police (1825-1975
The registers vary in amount of biographical detail but may include name, age, place of birth, marital status and whether the officer had children, height, addresses and career progression (or lack of).
The records include personal details about the policemen and may record notes on disciplinary action.
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I have just found a new reference to John Christie, police criminal officer in a book about Scottish women who were sent to Van Dieman's Land on board the convict ship the Atwick. The book is called "Abandoned Women" by Lucy Frost, 2015 and published by Allen and Unwin. The crime was committed by a woman called Catherine Chisholm who made counterfeit coins and who on 6 April 1836 was arrested. There is good detail about the case which it appears John Christie resolved. The author refers to John Christie as "one of Glasgow's most assiduous police criminal officers". The book is really interesting, easy to read and a great reference. Hope this helps.
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Wheeo, just read your post :o Thank you so much!
I've, this minute, placed an order with an online seller and I'm so looking forward to its arrival.
You've made my day :) ;) ;D
annmck
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I've just been reading Scotlands People website - Index for births (https://www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk/). This is similar to information you have already received but you can pay to access an actual copy of the register for births.
Surname Forename Parents/ Other Details Age Date Parish Number Ref Parish
CHRISTIE JANET JOHN CHRISTIE/JANET STEWART FR687 (FR687) 0 19/05/1816 361/ 30 190 Killin
CHRISTIE JANET JOHN CHRISTIE/JANET STEWART 0 29/05/1816 361/ 20 336 Killin
CHRISTIE MALCOM JOHN CHRISTIE/JANET STEWART FR2518 (FR2518) 0 30/01/1819 644/1 220 141 Glasgow
CHRISTIE WILLIAM JOHN CHRISTIE/JANET STEWART FR3693 (FR3693) 0 04/05/1822 644/1 310 69 Glasgow
CHRISTIE JOHN JOHN CHRISTIE/JANET STEWART FR3821 (FR3821) 0 30/11/1823 644/1 310 315 Glasgow
CHRISTIE CATHERINE JOHN CHRISTIE/JANET STEWART FR4028 (FR4028) 0 04/06/1826 644/1 320 149 Glasgow
CHRISTIE WILLIAM JOHN CHRISTIE/JANET STEWART FR4301 (FR4301) 0 30/03/1830 644/1 320 666 Glasgow
There is also multiple deaths for John and Janet Christie - but no guarantee that you will find the correct person even if they are listed. However it really is a great resource when accessing information from Australia if you think you know who you might be looking for. Sorry if you know about this already.