RootsChat.Com
England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Suffolk => Topic started by: gumboots on Friday 27 August 10 08:53 BST (UK)
-
I have just about given up in my search for the ancestors of my great great grandfather William Flack. My William Flack married Ann Dye at Impington in Cambridgeshire in 1829. William was 21. The marriage record and census records state that William Flack was born at Walston in Suffolk. I think this is probably Walston Ley, but I can't find any record of his birth in 1808. William and Ann Flack and their family emigrated to Australia in 1854. A John Flack was sent out to Australia in 1820 as a convict and one of his descendants believes my William is John's brother, and although it is a good fit, we can't prove it.
The parents of John Flack the convict were William Flack and Elizabeth Reeve. John Flack was born at Newmarket Suffolk in 1802 and appears in the Hundon Church baptisms. There is also a sister, Elizabeth Flack born 1805. John's father William Flack was a soldier and he died in October of 1808. John had said that he had a younger brother who was born in 1808 not long before his father died, and was living at home with his mother at the time of his transportation. I have not found another Flack baby who fits the bill except for my William Flack, but as I said before, I can't prove it.
I have posted my Flack research on the Flack Genealogy website.
Any ideas about where I can go from here?
-
Hello Gumboots, welcome to Rootschat ;D
There isn't a village called Walston in Suffolk.
I wonder if this is Walsham (Walsham le Willows) or there was a Walsham Hall in the parish of Mendham, possibly his parents worked on that estate when he was born?
If you can let me know which census you have found with this village name, I will check the original and see if I can help further ;)
Incidentally, there is a house called 'Walston Ley' for sale in the village of Chevington near Bury St Edmunds.
Pat ...
-
The 1851 Census definitely says 'Walston' or something very like it.
HO 107/1759/93/13
Perhaps it should have said Walton ? (near Felixstowe).
Also worth pointing out that English marriage records do not say where the parties were born, only where they are living at the time.
Of course if William was married in Cambridgeshire but was from a parish somewhere in Suffolk, you would expect the banns to be called in that parish as well.
-
I did purchase original copies of the census and they do say Walston - one a bit clearer than the other - and that is why I have assumed Walston Ley. Options for a Walston in Suffolk seem to be pretty much zilch. Walston Ley Chevington is in the same vicinity as Newmarket and a few other places with which John Flack the convict had associations. I applied to the Archives at Shire Hall in Cambridge for whatever information was on the marriage entry at Impington in Cambridgeshire and I was given the birth places, so I thought they were part of the entry. Perhaps the researcher used the information on the census returns to ascertain place of birth. The birth place for Ann Dye is given as Mellis in Suffolk. William and Ann Flack are in the 1831 census for Impington and the 1841 and 1851 census records for nearby Oakington. It was from Oakington Cambridgeshire that the family set off for Australia - two daughters in 1852 and the rest of the family in 1854.
If it was usual for bans to be read in a home parish as well, I wonder where to start with that one - was it always the birth parish?
John Flack's mother re-married a William Surridge in 1810, also registered at Hundon, but I don't know exactly where they were living or where they went. I have not found deaths for the mother or step father in the Hundon registers on-line.
With regard to a baptism for William Flack - if he was indeed the little brother of John the convict, and was born in 1808 just prior to the death of the father William, then maybe a baptism for the new baby just fell by the wayside. If so, I suspect I am brick-walled!
My William Flack died soon after arriving in South Australia, in 1855, and no help with parents there!
Thanks for your interest and I do hope you can come up with a new angle for me to find who my William Flack belonged to.
-
There is no parish of Walston Ley in Suffolk.
Along the main street in the village of Chevington is a chalet house for sale, it is called 'Walston Ley', just as others are named Willow Cottage, Forge House etc.
I thought of Walton near Felixstowe too Dave, just trying to think of how Walston would have sounded with ode Suffolk accent ;)
Pat ...
-
Hi gumboots
Here's a thought. The census records we see are only clerical copies of information extracted from the original schedules (which no longer exist) so mistakes can creep in. What if William actually wrote down "Halston" but the clerk, being unfamilar with Suffolk placenames, thought he read "Walston"?
Halston (also called Harleston or Harlestone) is definitely in Suffolk - just a few miles from Stowmarket.
Modern census transcriptions show how easy a mistake this is to make. e.g. try searching the 1861 Census for birthplaces indexed as "Walston, Suffolk". There are three, and in all three cases the entry actually reads "Halston".
Dave
-
I have just looked at the 1851 (thanks Dave) and Ann's birthplace is Melles not Mellis.
Soooooo, could Walston be a corruption of Wenhaston?
Pat ...
-
I live in Australia, so many of the names mean nothing to me. Pat, can I ask what makes you believe Ann Dye was born in Melles and not Mellis? The Shire Hall Archivist at Cambridge gave me Mellis. I thought I had found her in the Mellis records, but maybe I am wrong. William Flack's birth place is recorded as Walston in more than one census. Does that mean anything?
-
I live in Australia, so many of the names mean nothing to me. Pat, can I ask what makes you believe Ann Dye was born in Melles and not Mellis? The Shire Hall Archivist at Cambridge gave me Mellis. I thought I had found her in the Mellis records, but maybe I am wrong. William Flack's birth place is recorded as Walston in more than one census. Does that mean anything?
Hi again
Bit confused by this. William's birthplace was shown in the 1851 Census and he died in 1855. It won't have been recorded in earlier Censuses. ???
-
You would be right Dave. Sorry! I have two photocopies of census records which were sent to me, one is almost unreadable but both must be for the same census year - 1851. It is the same handwriting. I can't read the entry for Ann Flack on the poorer copy but on the better one there is a black dot over Ann Flack's birthplace, so I presumed it to be Mellis. Mellis is the town given to me by Shire Hall in Cambridge. On a second look with a magnifying glass it may well be Melles. William Flack's birthplace does look like Walston. But with Ann maybe born at Melles and not Mellis, I am even further away from getting this couple sorted than I thought I was. You get that! Just one other thing, neither William nor Ann Flack could read or write. I was interested to note that the census records we see are transcripts even though they are handwritten. Never knew that!
-
Can't find Melles Suffolk on the map. Does it still exist?
-
Can't find Melles Suffolk on the map. Does it still exist?
As far as I am aware there is no such place in Suffolk as Melles, I think this is an ennumerating spelling error for Mellis.
As far as Williams birthplace is concerned, the only place I can come up with is Woolverstone, thinking of how its prounounced in a Suffolk accent it could well come out a Walston.
-
Melles/Mells is a hamlet and is a well known area of the village of Wenhaston (say Wenerst'n).
I wondered abut Melles as it is clearly and 'e' rather than in 'i' on the 1851 - but it could be an error on the part of the enumerator writing the names down and mis-hearing the Suffolk accent.
Good thinking on Woolverstone Sue ;D
Pat ...
Recorders' Secretary
Local History Recorders in parishes throughout the county
www.slhc.org.uk
-
Found Wolverstone on the map. It is near a major waterway. Perhaps this had something to do with William Flack the soldier. Is it possible the hurt or sick soldiers were held there? Or maybe it was just an army camp. Many of the soldiers died of things that had nothing to do with soldiering. The family must have made their way back home though - wherever that was - as William Flack the soldier is on the burial register in October of 1808 for Hundon. But that may have been after the baby William was born at Wolverstone. I have read that sometimes the wives travelled around a bit with their soldier husbands. I never would have looked twice at Wolverstone, but then I am not familiar with the most likely accent. An Aussie would not come close to Walston!
-
Just on Ann Dye from Mellis/Melles. I thought I had found this family at Mellis. Shire Hall, Cambridge, told me Ann's father was Thomas Dye. A Thomas and Ann Dye lived near William and Ann Flack at Oakington, and in fact died there. Thomas Dye died in 1846 aged 65 and Ann Dye in 1848 also aged 65, and that all fits with the family I found in the records from Mellis (which I ordered through our local Mormans Centre). But families often used the same few names, so it may well be that a Dye family from the Melles area would fit as well. Can you tell me if I am likely to learn anything useful if I sent for the death certificates of Thomas and/or Ann Dye who died at Oakington? It gets to be a tad expensive this family history interest, so I limit the purchase of certificates to those which are necessary.
-
I suspect this 'chat' is going to peter out very soon. There is probably no obvious answer to my query and therefore people will soon lose interest, so may I say thankyou to those who responded. You have given me some new ideas to explore and some new places or parishes to consider. Thanks!
-
Hi Gumboots,
No BB signal last night, so thought I would try this morning ::)
I had not realised you had information to confirm the village of Mellis, my apologies.
I have not come across any military connections to Woolverstone before, unfortunately do not have a Local History Recorder for that parish at the moment. Their community website is at
http://www.any-village.com/UK/England/Suffolk/Woolverstone/home.aspx
I know that the prominent Berners family were living at Woolverstone Hall and that it is indeed situated on the river Orwell, the main waterway into the port of Ipswich. In days gone by, goods from London were often transported along the river Thames out into the sea and then up the Orwell and into Ipswich (and vice versa).
Will send this now, as connection has been and gone and now back again.
Back later (I hope)
Pat ...
-
Cooo - got a connection! Wish this windy weather would go away ::)
Just a thought, I wondered if my old chum Simon's page of place names might help in your research.
http://www.suffolkchurches.co.uk/pronunciation.htm
I was prompted to forward this after musing on your problems last night with my husband who said, 'well don't forget Worlingworth is Walln'th', so anything is possible'.
Not sure Simon has all the pronunciation correct, but it might give you an idea of how letters in place names are swallowed up ;D
Pat ...
-
Thanks Pat. It is good to still have some options to try. I am still a bit confused about the Mellis/Melles. Think I will check and see if the Mormon Centre has records for Melles and if so, check for a Thomas Dye there too. Like I said before, families often used the same names. The Mellis family seemed to fit though, also with Ann's sisters Sarah and Esther Dye who married at Oakington. But you have shaken my tree a little with the info given to me by Shire Hall. It still reads as though Walston and Mellis in Suffolk were given as places of birth in relation to the marriage at Impington. Never mind, hope to visit UK one day, so might get to have a crack at it in person. Can you tell me what information I could expect on an English death certificate if I sent for one for Thomas Dye who died at Oakington in 1846? They vary enormously here in Australia from State to State. A South Australian one would not give you parents.
Thanks again.
-
A connection at last - very windy day her in south Suffolk ! 22h20 Sunday evening and the winds have died down at last.
The information for Melles/Mells would probably be with the parish records for Wenhaston St Peter's they run from 1687-1900 at the SRO, and should be available to order from the LDS.
I look after all the Local History Recorders in parishes throughout the county (and have info on those parishes which became part of Norfolk in the county boundary changes) and I can assure you there is no Walston in Suffolk.
I dug out my copy of 'Origins of Suffolk Place-names' today and checked with accent pronunciations too in fact, a friend of ours Robert Malster has written about the Suffolk accent and dialect and our daughter who studied English Language at Uni wrote her thesis on same subject).
Bearing in mind that the Suffolk accent would say Wall for Worl I am wondering now about Worlington. When I did have a connection this morning I checked randomly for Flack and there was an amazing amount of folk with this name in the Lakenheath/Mildenhall area in1851.
The only other place I can think of is West Row, which of course is said as one word Westrow - still doesn't make a great deal of sense though.
I also checked through the info I have on my home PC for my website and see that you have registered in the past and I was unable to help further with that to see if any other areas are predominantly 'Flack areas' of the county.
I have been out of action, stuck at home, following surgery and 8 weeks R&R, am nearly six weeks into that - but all being well, once I have finalised our LHRs conference day in October, I will be able to visit the Bury branch of the SRO and maybe able to carry out some look ups for you in possible parishes.
Pat ...
www.slhc.org.uk
-
I did contact Simon for his thoughts - here is his reply.
Walsham? Weston? or most likely Woolverstone?
I am beginning to think you will need to check out all parishes beginning with 'W' ;D ;D ;D
Night Night
Pat ...
-
Thanks for your continued interest Pat. I have been digging around looking for ancestory for my William Flack for some time. It is hard to just give up. I try to keep the query out there, just in case someone gets hold of new records or something! It is a very good fit to think he is the little brother of John the convict, and I may end up having to be happy with a best fit. But I will follow up some of your suggestions and see how I go. Thanks again.
-
Just musing :-\
If Ann was from Mellis, would William have been from nearby Wortham?
Still windy here in south Suffolk, but sunny on this Bank Holiday Monday.
Off out soon.
Pat ...
-
Have just been through
Parson and People in a Suffolk Village
Richard Cobbold's Wortham 1834-77
ed. David Dymond
no mention of any Flack families ::)
Back to the drawing board!
Pat ...
-
Has this one been mentioned, which isn't far from Mellis. WYVERSTONE.
BUT, like you say Pat, the parishes beginning with W need checking before anything else. :-\
-
Seeing your suggestion of Wyverstone made me think of Woolverstone (which is much further south - just south east from Ipswich).
I think we are looking at checking out all parishes beginning with 'W' ::) ::) ::)
Pat ...
-
Can we assume William Flack and Ann Dye knew each other before going to Cambridgeshire and marrying in 1829? Perhaps the places in Suffolk in which they were born are not close at all! I am thinking William was on his own when he went to Cambridgeshire, but Ann may have been with her parents. The young couple may have met there.
-
Can we assume William Flack and Ann Dye knew each other before going to Cambridgeshire and marrying in 1829? Perhaps the places in Suffolk in which they were born are not close at all! I am thinking William was on his own when he went to Cambridgeshire, but Ann may have been with her parents. The young couple may have met there.
We can't assume anything I am afraid, anything is possible.
-
Pat,
I checked the Morman records for Wenhaston (and Melles) - to see if there was a Dye family there with similar Christian names etc. - but so far their records only go to 1752. However, will keep checking every now and then to see if a film with later dates comes up. Just like to be sure Mellis is my best fit.
Thanks to everyone for your interest in my searches.
-
Hi Pat,
Received the personal message from you, but not sure how or if I can reply to it. Anyway, thanks again for your continued interest. You would be aware that I live in Australia, so some of the UK research is not easy for me to do myself. I am most grateful for any help you can give. I am a descendant of Rosena Flack, who was born in Oakington to William and Ann Flack in 1846. The Shire Hall told me she was registered as Rosella but I have found her also as Rosetta (mind you, handwriting could easily confuse Rosella and Rosetta) - and sometimes she has been referred to as Rose. I call her Rosena, as that is what she called herself in her adult years.
-
I was searching for Melles and came across this thread, probably long dead, but I found this about the place:
https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=WVQ9AAAAYAAJ&pg=PP420&lpg=PP420&dq=%22melles+suffolk%22&source=bl&ots=y0sS7cPeGt&sig=K7MGbnDBGitx66q_5tlPiDZK0uA&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwih59aBu_rWAhWBfhoKHdNICNYQ6AEILTAB#v=onepage&q=%22melles%20suffolk%22&f=false
It seems a useful book for old places.
Martin