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Some Special Interests => Occupation Interests => Topic started by: yelkcub on Monday 30 August 10 12:51 BST (UK)

Title: Excise officers
Post by: yelkcub on Monday 30 August 10 12:51 BST (UK)
I have read an earlier thread on this topic, but would still like to find out if, at the turn of the 18th / 19th centuries, small inland towns would have had a resident excise officer, and if so how was the service organized: would, for example, the excise officers be moved from place to place regularly?  I am particularly interested in the East Sussex area. Can anyone with knowledge of this topic enlighten me?
Title: Re: Excise officers
Post by: Rena on Monday 30 August 10 12:59 BST (UK)
I can't answer your question fully, but I should imagine every area had a Revenue Official.  If you think about the various old taxes such as window tax and hearth tax somebody would have to go around checking the facts.  I'm having problems getting onto websites today but this is a start:

http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/records/looking-for-person/excise-officer.htm
Title: Re: Excise officers
Post by: yelkcub on Monday 30 August 10 17:48 BST (UK)
Thanks for that - I wish I could get access to that Parliamentary Papers website - unfortunately I don't have an ATHENS password. In Google Books I found a volume of House of Commons papers containing lists of the various government establishments in 1821, including the Excise department. Many of the places named are inland, so I still think that in many places there was an excise man permanently stationed.
Title: Re: Excise officers
Post by: Nemo on Wednesday 01 September 10 00:02 BST (UK)
Hi yelkcub
You ask if Excise Officers were moved from place to place and how the service was organised. I don’t have any specific information about East Sussex, but my ancestor may have been a typical Excise Officer.
He qualified in London 1829 when he was 19. He was still there in 1841. Looking at the places of birth of his children in the 1851 census it is apparent that sometime during the 1840’s he was posted to Stourbridge, Worcs, where, for example, each glassworks had an Excise Officer. By 1849 he was in the brewing town of Burton-on-Trent, Derbyshire. I found parliamentary papers on Google books which showed that he retired in 1857 on the grounds of ill health. His salary on retirement was £100 p.a. and his pension was £37.10s
His Excise Officer papers at The National Archives indicate that as a 19 year old he received instruction and his certificate states that he is “qualified for surveying Common brewers, Victuallers, Maltsters, Chandlers, Soapers, Tanners, Brandy, Wine, Tea, Tobacco and Vinegar Dealers, he can cost Excise and Malt Gages, both by Pen and Rule, hath taken Gages and Stocked for six Weeks in Greenwich 2nd Division and duly entered his Surveys in Books prepared by him for that Purpose, from which he hath made true Vouchers and Abstract, is provided with proper Instruments and Instructions, and in every Respect well qualified for the employment of an Officer of Excise”. He was then examined and was found “well qualified in every Respect, according to the above certificate, he understands the first four Rules of vulgar and decimal arithmetic, he hath taken the Oath of Office and Allegiance and the said Certificate and the above Oath are of his own handwriting.”
HTH
Nemo
Title: Re: Excise officers
Post by: yelkcub on Wednesday 01 September 10 11:27 BST (UK)
Hi Nemo -
Your response to my query has answered a great many of my questions about the life and duties of an excise officer - brilliant, and many thanks. Now I have some idea of the age at which men were trained for the job as well as the kinds of tasks they were engaged in. It also convinces me that the officer I've been researching was probably born outside Sussex (whose birth, marriage and burial indexes do not show him). I also found reference in Google books to his being 'discontinued' in 1818 - and in a different section in the same book a note of his salary - £110 ... which would have been quite a considerable sum in those days. He had had 43 years in the service, so if he started at the same age as the person you describe he would have been 60 when he was pensioned off.
Again - many thanks for such an informative response
Best wishes IAN
Title: Re: Excise officers
Post by: Rena on Monday 13 September 10 14:47 BST (UK)
Congratulations to both of you!  Now that dusty documents have been catalogued I think maybe I should return to one of my Scottish lines of generations of "Seafarer, Revenue" to see if their records have survived.  I'm especially interested in my gt.grandfather who married as a young "sailor" but then shortly thereafter had a job as a "deputy dockmaster" for the rest of his working life.  Currently the only information I have is from an online British Library newspaper which lists the tasks a deputy dockmaster's job entailed.
Title: Re: Excise officers
Post by: sihuss on Wednesday 29 September 10 17:19 BST (UK)
Hi folks,

have you managed to find out much about your Excise guys?

I have an Excise Officer in my tree - Dudley Hussey in Ireland.  No mention of him in the UK National Archive's Irish Excise staff lists (1860-1866) CUST 39/123-129.  And no entry in TNA catalogue for excise entry papers either (CUST116).

Wondering if you've come across any other useful sources?

Simon
Title: Re: Excise officers
Post by: wetpawprints on Saturday 12 March 11 16:07 GMT (UK)
Hello everybody,

I too am trying to find some information on an excise officer. I have searched the National Archives catalogue but to no avail.

My ancestor is shown as being an excise officer on his childrens baptisms and when his wife died she stated her occupation as 'widow of supervisor of excise'.

Can anybody give any pointers as to where I should be looking?

Many thanks,
Trish
Title: Re: Excise officers
Post by: sihuss on Sunday 13 March 11 14:24 GMT (UK)
Hi,
I found 4 or 5 facts about my excise officer on the House of Commons Parliamentary Papers site mentioned above. You need an ATHENS logon to access it though, so if you like I can check it for you. Just forward the man's name and I'll see what it comes up with!

Simon
Title: Re: Excise officers
Post by: Scrabble on Tuesday 03 May 11 15:06 BST (UK)
Simon

Is there a chance you could look up my Exciseman ancestor on Athens please? I've tried TNA online without result.

He was James Wellman born c.1775 died Sept 1828 Union Street, Hoxton, E London. On his childrens' christenings he was recorded as a gentleman but on his daughter's marriage cert he was "Exciseman". I have his marriage 1820 (no parents or occ mentioned) and burial record but no indication of his origins. Any info at all would be helpful.

Thank you.
Title: Re: Excise officers
Post by: sihuss on Tuesday 03 May 11 22:35 BST (UK)
Hi Scrabble,

I had a look on your behalf but I'm afraid the result was rather disappointing.

I found one reference to a John Wellman working in Fowey (Cornwall) as a clerk for a customs collector, but nothing at all on a James, Jas, J or otherwise.

Hate to be the bearer of bad news.

Sorry,

Simon.
Title: Re: Excise officers
Post by: Lady Di on Tuesday 03 May 11 23:47 BST (UK)
Thanks for all the information posted above.

That's a great help in building up a picture of the life and times of my excise officer.


Di
Title: Re: Excise officers
Post by: Scrabble on Wednesday 04 May 11 08:54 BST (UK)
I had a look on your behalf but I'm afraid the result was rather disappointing.

I found one reference to a John Wellman working in Fowey (Cornwall) as a clerk for a customs collector, but nothing at all on a James, Jas, J or otherwise.

Hate to be the bearer of bad news.



Simon
Thank you, I really appreciate your looking for this. I had noticed that there were Wellmans in Cornwall but James married in Holborn, London, and died in Hoxton, London so he could have come from anywhere really. I will keep casting about, experience has shown that sometimes a clue comes along eventually!
Best wishes
Pat
Title: Excise officers -How did they tell the time?
Post by: sanqhar on Wednesday 11 May 11 19:20 BST (UK)
This is not specific to names, but an interesting adjunct to the Excise Officers way of life.

When an excise officer visited a trader on revenue business he would keep a written record.  This would have to include how long he spent on the premises.  In an era when few people could afford a watch how did he do it?  Note, I said "he" as women did not join the the "Outdoor Service" as officers till 1971.

Excise officers were locally based and without a watch would have to keep an ear open for the church or town hall clock.  If he had heard the clock strike 10 (am) then he would note the record as "mp10" (without quotes), this stood for "morning past 10".  If he left the premises after 2pm then he would record the time as "ep2", which stood for "evening past 2".  Noon had its own notation, "pn" for "past noon".  If the time to be recorded was on the hour then it would be "m10" (morning 10), "e2" (evening 2) or "n" (noon).

The sharp amongst you will realise that this was open to abuse.

So "mp10 to mp11" could be 2 minutes work or nearly 2 hours, e.g. 10:59 to 11:01 =2 minutes, or it could be 10:01 to 11:59 =nearly 2 hours.

This system, known as "Excise Notation" was still in use until the early 70s,  yes I do mean the 1970s.

tom



Title: Re: Excise officers
Post by: ScouseBoy on Wednesday 11 May 11 19:26 BST (UK)
About 40 years ago  I worked in an office with someone who had previously worked for the Customs and Excise.

He was attached to a Scotch whisky distillery,  and they had to record quantity produced I suppose.
Title: Re: Excise officers
Post by: lindymm on Tuesday 09 August 11 03:42 BST (UK)
Hello folks,

I also have an ancestor who was an excise officer. If anyone has any information on him, or if someone, perhaps Simon, could look for him in ATHENS, it would be very much appreciated.

George Titterton born ~1776

Residences:
  - Southwark & Bermondsey, Surrey, England
  - possible records from Westminster & Shoreditch, Middlesex, England and Lambeth, Surrey, England.

Profession:
  - Excise Officer (children's birth/baptism records)
  - Superannuation Excise Officer (1851 census)

Family:
  - wife Elizabeth (maiden surname unknown)
  - children Charlotte Elizabeth, Rebecca & Richard James Titterton

Thanks,
Lindy
Title: Re: Excise officers
Post by: sihuss on Tuesday 09 August 11 23:53 BST (UK)
Hi Lindy,

Have found one page referring to the cessation of his superannuation due to his death on 20 September 1854.

That of any interest?  He is described therein as a 'permit writer'.

Simon
Title: Re: Excise officers
Post by: lindymm on Wednesday 10 August 11 01:06 BST (UK)
Hi Simon,

Thanks for that. Helped me confirm an uncertain death date for him.

Cheers,
Lindy
Title: Re: Excise officers
Post by: Redroger on Wednesday 10 August 11 19:10 BST (UK)
Simon, I wonder if you could help me please? In my tree I have a Thomas Ovens, who was believed to have been an excise officer at or near Heckington Lincs in 1739. Ovens is a very rare surname in Lincolnshire, and I have been unable to find any earlier trace of him on site I can access.
Title: Re: Excise officers
Post by: newburychap on Friday 12 August 11 15:17 BST (UK)
TNA has a lot of material on excise officers - but they are not catalogued by name.  You really need to go to TNA and go through the minute books that contain entries on postings, promotions, disciplinary measures etc.

It can be a frustrating process as you can only order 3 items at a time and it only takes a couple of minutes to check the index of three minute books and find no reference you are interested in.  Then follows a 30 minute wait for the next three books to arrive.

My experience came from following the career of an officer who served from 1709 to 1715 - I found four entries in the 20+ books that cover the period.  One day I may return to check the books in more detail as there is at least one posting I have missed by just checking the name in each book's index.

Excise officers did not serve in their home town - to prevent corruption/favouritism etc.  The chap I was researching left the service when he married a girl in the town where he was officer (his choice would have been to resign or move).
Title: Re: Excise officers
Post by: Redroger on Saturday 13 August 11 19:41 BST (UK)
I have no idea where Thomas Ovens came from or where he went to, I only know that his daughter Elizabeth was born in Heckington in 1739, and by implication he was still in the vicinity in 1764 when his daughter  married into my tree in neighbouring Great Hale.
Title: Re: Excise officers
Post by: wetpawprints on Saturday 03 September 11 14:00 BST (UK)
Simon

I would be most grateful if you could look up my exciseman ancestor on Athens please?

He was John Winteringham (Wintringham) c.1780.
I have listings of him being an excise officer on his childrens christenings:
Lockwood, Yorkshire 1809
St Helens, Lancashire 1814
Liverpool, Lancashire 1817
Liverpool, Lancashire 1819
I have no record of his death and cannot trace one anywhere either. On the 1841 & 1851 census his wife is shown as 'widow of excise officer' and her death certificate states her occupation as 'widow of supervisor of excise'.

I do hope to be able to visit the National Archives one day but any information at all would be wonderful.

Trish
Title: Re: Excise officers
Post by: Lookin2 on Monday 10 October 11 15:40 BST (UK)
yelclub

Re Excise Officers.  Celia Cotton http://www.bhsproject.co.uk did extensive research on my Excise Officers and she has written an article on her website to help others who are searching.  You may find it of interest.  Lookin2
Title: Re: Excise officers
Post by: fruitlady on Saturday 31 March 12 05:26 BST (UK)
Simon,
Another request for you to look up on ATHENS.  My ggg grandfather John Davison was an excise officer.
20th January 1825 he was assigned to Egton Ride, Whitby Collection, late of Workington ride, Cumberland Collection
14th July 1827 was replaced at Egton Ride due to death
His burial at Glaisdale lists his age as 34 so probable birth in 1793.
I believe there are several excise officers with the same name. In the minute books I was able to go through on my last trip to England (when I found the above) I would find John Davison going from one ride to another but not the same ride as the last or next reference.
Any help would be appreciated.
Sue
Title: Re: Excise officers
Post by: Scranpot on Saturday 18 May 13 13:17 BST (UK)
Hi Newbury Chap

I've just found your posts about Excise Officers, and wonder if you could suggest how I could take forward my research?

I'm trying to find out about William Bate, who was named as an Officer of Excise, of London, in his father John Bate's will dated 1796. I found a reference to a William Bate in the National Archives Customs index as entering the service in 1836 - too late for my William Bate, but I thought he might be a relation and I was in London anyway so I visited TNA to look him up. (I completely relate to your 'three documents at a time' frustration!)

He doesn't seem to have been a relation of my William Bate, however, and one of the advisers there said I probably wouldn't find any relevant records as early as the 1790s: but there are references in your posts to Officers of Excise much earlier than the 1790s. Can you advise where I might pursue my search?

The other slightly confusing thing about my William Bate being an Officer of Excise is that the evidence indicates that he was a Catholic, and I thought Catholics were barred from public office until the 1820s ...

Scranpot
Title: Re: Excise officers
Post by: floraflossieflo on Tuesday 24 September 13 23:27 BST (UK)
Wow, so delighted to have found this thread.  I have an ancestor who was an Excise Officer, and we have his qualification certificate from 1819, the date and location of the birth and baptism of all his children as he and his family moved around the country, and even a letter from his wife to him in one place.  But I'd still value any information on him or more detail on how he would have worked. 

His name was George Penny, born and Christened in Colton, Lancs, in 1797 and qualified in Lancaster, for 'Surveying a Soapery', in 1819, married Margaret Marsh in Hanmer, Flintshire, whilst living in Ellesmere. His children were born and/or Christened at Manchester, Ardwick, Chester, Rusholm, Birmingham, Worcester, and Alcester.  He died at Stourbridge in 1850. 

I know he travelled by horse, with pistols, a lantern and a tinderbox, and I assume that Excise officers were not the most popular of people with some folks.  Did they stay in an area and keep an eye on several places, did they 'survey' several types of manufacturers and did they have standard report forms, in fact any information that people can supply, I'd be very interested to receive. 

I do hope some of those in the know are still checking into this thread, and would be delighted to hear more from you. 

Many thanks,

Flo
Title: Re: Excise officers
Post by: Lookin2 on Wednesday 25 September 13 15:12 BST (UK)
The site below has info on Excise Officers and how to find them  Lookin2

www.bhsproject.co.uk
Title: Re: Excise officers
Post by: floraflossieflo on Wednesday 25 September 13 20:51 BST (UK)
Thanks so much - that's really interesting. 

flo
Title: Re: Excise officers
Post by: singwell on Thursday 29 May 14 14:31 BST (UK)
I have been looking for a John Trenerry, excise man, for a long time but can't get to documents because I am in Australia. He was in South Molton Devon c 1815-1819, then he disappears. His widow Jemima Griffiths, daughter of excise man Cornelius Griffiths, later lived in Bristol with her sons.I did write once to the UK national archives, but they told me they had no information on John Trenerry. Can anyone help?
Title: Re: Excise officers
Post by: floraflossieflo on Thursday 29 May 14 19:36 BST (UK)
Hi, great to find someone else looking for Excise Officers.  Hopefully someone else will find something for you but if not, eventually I will be going to the National Records Office in Kew, near London, to look for my own ancester, and if you have no luck elsewhere, I'll look for you but the earliers would be this autumn, so don't hold your breath.  Have you looked on Ancestry?
Title: Re: Excise officers
Post by: silaswall on Thursday 29 May 14 20:07 BST (UK)
If you do a search for "Cowes and Isle of Wight Customs History" you will find some very useful info has been transcribed. Makes good reading even if your ancestors did not work there.
Title: Re: Excise officers
Post by: floraflossieflo on Thursday 29 May 14 22:35 BST (UK)
Thanks, sounds interesting.
Title: Re: Excise officers
Post by: singwell on Friday 30 May 14 00:50 BST (UK)
Floraflossieflo, thanks so much for replying!!!! I have looked on ancestry but haven't found anything that seems to relate to our John Trenerry. I don't know if he is Cornish born or the child of Cornish people and the name is not uncommon in Cornwall. That would be lovely if you couldlook him up for me. Wish I could return the favour,bless you.
Title: Re: Excise officers
Post by: silaswall on Friday 30 May 14 09:21 BST (UK)
Should also have said (if you have not already found it) someone has transcribed the parish records for Dartmouth, Devon & put them on-line. I know it is not the same as checking yourself but can be used as a pointer. A great many Excise men seem to have passed through Dartmouth. I found some of my Isle of Wight Excise men there.
Title: Re: Excise officers
Post by: floraflossieflo on Friday 30 May 14 11:57 BST (UK)
Out of interest, are you researching Excise men or are John and Jemima Trerenny your ancestors?  If so could you give me any details such as names of children, as I know Excise officers were moved around fairly frequently and the dates and birth places of their children give good clues to where to look for them and hence if I do get to the National record office, it helps direct me to the right search place. 
I see there is a John Trenerry and Jemima Griffiths couple on Ancestry but Jemima's father is not Cornelius - a wonderful name and easily identified!
Title: Re: Excise officers
Post by: Lookin2 on Sunday 06 July 14 20:43 BST (UK)
SCRANPOT

I have offered this site  before as a good read on how to find Excise Officers:

www.bhsprohect.co.uk

 Go to Occupations page (left column) and scroll down to Excise Officers.  I really think it has the best information on finding Excise Officers.  The site is originally for Old Brentford History and in itself is interesting read.

Lookin2
Title: Re: Excise officers
Post by: newburychap on Tuesday 22 July 14 17:07 BST (UK)
Hi Newbury Chap

I've just found your posts about Excise Officers, and wonder if you could suggest how I could take forward my research?

I'm trying to find out about William Bate, who was named as an Officer of Excise, of London, in his father John Bate's will dated 1796. I found a reference to a William Bate in the National Archives Customs index as entering the service in 1836 - too late for my William Bate, but I thought he might be a relation and I was in London anyway so I visited TNA to look him up. (I completely relate to your 'three documents at a time' frustration!)

He doesn't seem to have been a relation of my William Bate, however, and one of the advisers there said I probably wouldn't find any relevant records as early as the 1790s: but there are references in your posts to Officers of Excise much earlier than the 1790s. Can you advise where I might pursue my search?

The other slightly confusing thing about my William Bate being an Officer of Excise is that the evidence indicates that he was a Catholic, and I thought Catholics were barred from public office until the 1820s ...

Scranpot

It's been a long time since I visited this thread - sorry for the long delay in responding!

Catholicism was, in theory, a bar to many occupations, but many a blind eye would be turned as long as they 'proved' their allegiance to the Established Church by turning up at a service once a year or so.

The chap I researched left the excise in the 1720s - I found several references to him in the Excise Minute Books at Kew.  However, I did not find all of his career moves - not his joining, apprenticeship, in fact nothing until he is appointed as Supernumery at Windsor.  Then they document his demotion from Officer at Windsor to Supernumery at Reading, then he moves as Officer from Wallingford(IIRC) to East Ilsley, then he resigns having decided to go to the dark side and run a pub.  So several steps have been missed, or I missed them in the indexes to the books, or they didn't index his name.  I think I went through the entired period he was at Windsor (not long) to see if I could find his promotion to Officer, without success.

So, if you are able to spend time at Kew I would recommend trawling through the Minute Books, starting at 1796, when you know he is an exciseman and moving forward and backward in the hope of finding him.  Perhaps the advisor is right and there are few names recorded in the 1790s - but I wouldn't trust them to the extent of not having a look for myself! 

If I had a spare year to commit to it (I don't) an overall name index of the Minute Books would be a worthwhile exercise.
Title: Re: Excise officers
Post by: Matt62 on Sunday 17 August 14 18:51 BST (UK)
I didn't notice this thread before.

My 5th great grandfather Michael Welch was an excise officer according to the 1851 census and his son's death certificate. Previously he had been a Tallow Chandler, Confectioner and Potter. He lived in Leeds with his wife and family in the 1841 census, by 1851 he was a widow in Edinburgh.

I am unsure as to when and where he became an excise officer. Does anyone know where I might find records?
Title: Re: Excise officers
Post by: Scranpot on Tuesday 02 September 14 16:29 BST (UK)
Thanks Newbury Chap! (I don't check threads very often either ...)

I've also been pointed to a useful site - the BHS project. This has a list of grades of Excise Officer, which seems as though you might have had something to do with it: thanks for this too, if so.

By 1814 my William Bate is described in his aunt Ann Bate's will as a Supervisor, of Ratcliff Highway, so presumably he is working his way up the careerladder. Though from what I can gather Ratcliff Highway was a not very salubrious part of the East End. I'm a bit daunted by the prospect of trawling through all the minute books at Kew, but that seems to be the only way forward - I can't find any unambiguous record of him after 1814. Hey ho.

Scranpot
Title: Re: Excise officers
Post by: JustinL on Wednesday 10 September 14 14:44 BST (UK)
I thought I'd just chip in here too, so that I'll notice any developments.

Samuel Wilkinson (b. 1790 Nottingham) was also an Excise Officer from about 1815. By 1837 he was a supervisor and by 1851 he described himself as retired.

His service started in Henley-in-Arden, where he fell for and married the teenage daughter of a local alehouse keeper. By 1820, he and his family were in central Birmingham. From the late 1820s to his death, they lived in Walsall.

Justin

Title: Re: Excise officers
Post by: floraflossieflo on Wednesday 10 September 14 15:00 BST (UK)
Hi Justin, interesting that Samuel stayed in one place so long.  My ancestor never seem to have stayed so long in one place.  I reckon it must have been hard at times, travelling around by horse, needing pistols to protect themselves, as I've no doubt they were not popular, as well as facing all the other risks of travellers.  My ancestor George Penny, spent time in Birmingham between 1835 and 1837 - quite possible they knew each other, though I don't know if there was more than one office in Birmingham.
Title: Re: Excise officers
Post by: JustinL on Wednesday 10 September 14 15:33 BST (UK)
Hi,

I can only estimate the duration at each location from his marriage (1815) and the births of his nine (!!) known children between 1817 and 1838 (with a mysterious gap between Apr 1822 and Jun 1829).

Before reading this post, Samuel was little more to me than a name. I find it so interesting that the career in the excise office is so well documented, and that I gain a much deeper understanding of their lives. I readily conjure up a vision of a lone armed rider, plodding through rural Warwickshire. By shear coincidence my ex-sister-in-law lives in Henley, so I know the area.

According to The Excise Officer's Manual, the five Birmingham districts were in the Lichfield Collection and comprised 31 divisions. That must have required a lot of staff.

It is indeed interesting to speculate that our ancestors may have been aware of one another.

Justin
Title: Re: Excise officers
Post by: newburychap on Sunday 14 September 14 00:13 BST (UK)
Hi scranpot - the BHSProject page on the excise is indeed a great summary - but nothing to do with me!

Matt62 - you need to check the Excise Minute Books at Kew - but only if he was an Exciseman in England or Wales.  If it was in Scotland you may have a problem, their staff records were burnt at some time in the C19th.  http://www.nas.gov.uk/guides/customs.asp
Title: Re: Excise officers
Post by: LucyDescendant on Monday 14 September 15 23:14 BST (UK)
Can anyone help with information about my great great great grandfather William Lucy? He was an inland revenue officer in Cornwall in 1867 aged 28 and his occupation is listed as excise officer in 1871, still in Cornwall.  In 1881 he is a supervisor of inland revenue in Herefordshire. I can't access many records as I live in Sydney Australia. Any help would be much appreciated!
Title: Re: Excise officers
Post by: HeatherLynne on Tuesday 15 September 15 06:54 BST (UK)
Sorry Lucy I can't help you but thank you very much for posting on this thread, I hadn't seen it before and it's very interesting.

My great x 4 grandfather and also his father were Salt Duty Officers on the south coast near Southampton around 1771. Both were named Thomas Rassell and I found them via two bastardy bonds naming the younger Thomas as father of two ladies' children in early 1771.

The younger Thomas was a Salt Duty officer at Fawley and must have been under 21 I think in 1771 as his father is also named on the bastardy bonds. His father was a Salt Duty officer at South Hayling.

Does anyone have any links or information about this particular branch of Excise please?
Title: Re: Excise officers
Post by: Simon007 on Saturday 31 October 15 17:25 GMT (UK)
I have been reading this thread with interest and have seen the bhs project page. It lists the various stages an excise officer would go through in his career. Before I visit Kew to look at the records I would really like to know if my ancestor who, on his death certificate in 1838, was described as a "clerk in the Excise Office", would be in the records. The bhs list doesn't mention a "clerk" but does mention an "expectant" and "assistant". Maybe the informant didn't know the correct term to use and he was an expectant. Does anyone know if they used clerks who weren't training to become officers ?

His name was Francis Ross and he died aged 37, probably of TB.

Thanks for any thoughts.
Title: Re: Excise officers
Post by: ericthepenguin1 on Saturday 05 December 15 19:50 GMT (UK)
Hi

I will have to go myself to the NA in respect of a possible relative SAMUEL ASTON and thought you guys  may be able to give  me your  observations

I know Samuel Aston appears in parliamentray papers of 1815 where he is a permit writer and may also be receiving a pension. By 1817 it appears he may have died. From what i see he was employed by Excise for 49 years.

I have him in Lancashire in the late 1760's and it appears he is in Shropshire for 1770's/1780's

I think he may have been in Birmingham in c1773....that's the most important piece of information i need along with where he died

From what i have written above do you think there may be hope i could find this information at the NA, (or anywhere else).

Reading the Rootschat posts,  people say the minute books take an age to go through as it takes a long time to look at them, (due to only 3 items allowed to be given out at a time). I think the index now may be viewable via the NA site?

http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/results/r/18?_q=index%20to%20names&_hb=tna&_ser=CUST%2047&_srt=1&id=C5623 (http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/results/r/18?_q=index%20to%20names&_hb=tna&_ser=CUST%2047&_srt=1&id=C5623)

 Looking at the index's i see there is a Samuel Aston mentioned on 2/3 occasions.

The only other source i could think of finding Samuel Aston as an Exciseman was a Directory. I know Skelchers Directory (Birmingham area 1770), had Excisemen listed. I cannot find a 1773 copy though. Do you know of any other Directories that may have Exciseman listed down?

Basically, any tips at all would be most welcome!!!

Thanks for reading this

Best wishes

Eric
Title: Re: Excise officers
Post by: ericthepenguin1 on Monday 29 August 16 10:13 BST (UK)
Hi all

Just an update on Samuel Aston.

I visited the NA and the minute books appear to be more related to customs rather than Excise and it appears it was a Samuel Astin rather than Aston.

I checked the T22 series which specifically cover Excise officers. These include payments made to such officers, but despite looking through several years  between 1765 and 1815 i could not find any entry for Samuel Aston. I guess it means either 1) they are incomplete or 2) there may have been officers who were not paid by central government? Maybe local councils paid them? I am open to suggestions!

Regards

Eric
Title: Re: Excise officers
Post by: philipsearching on Friday 03 February 17 21:26 GMT (UK)
Can anyone access info that I can't find?

I have entry papers for a Basil Sandys (born c1801 Limerick) who applied in April 1827, completed his training at Greenwich in July 1827 and was recommended.  There is a newspaper article mentioning him as an Excise Officer in Longford, Ireland in 1839 and he is in Sidney Street, Marylebone, London on the 1841 census.  The only reference I found on the National Archive site (searching sandys OR sands AND excise) was for his entry papers.

Between 1827 and 1841 we believe Basil may have married twice and had at least 6 children - but we don't know where!  If we can track his Excise postings we would have a chance of finding BMD records.

We know Basil's parentage, and we know about his life after 1855, but there is a huge hole we would like to fill.

Any help will be gratefully received.
Philip
Title: Re: Excise officers
Post by: Bookbox on Friday 03 February 17 22:48 GMT (UK)
Between 1827 and 1841 we believe Basil may have married twice and had at least 6 children - but we don't know where!  If we can track his Excise postings we would have a chance of finding BMD records.

Postings of excise officers are recorded in the Minute Books at the National Archives in CUST 47. These books are not online, but each Minute Book is indexed, and the images of these indexes are online. This offers a shortcut to finding the actual records at Kew -- if you or someone you know can get there.

For example, for 1827-1841 ...
http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/results/r?_srt=1&_ep=index+to+names&_cr=CUST+47&_dss=range&_sd=1827&_ed=1841&_ro=any&_st=adv

Select the blue link for any volume, then click Show Images (in the yellow band). In the index volumes I searched at random, letter S is on image 22, or thereabouts.

For example, in one of the indexes for 1828 (CUST 47/570/1), I found 3 page references for Basil Sandys – pointing to pp. 21, 45 and 58 in the minute book CUST 47/570. From experience, these 3 entries will probably relate to various records of grading/salary etc. for a single appointment in that year.
Title: Re: Excise officers
Post by: philipsearching on Saturday 04 February 17 14:02 GMT (UK)
Bookbox - you've done it again.  That had just not occurred to me.

I had seen the previous posts about minute books, but I had made an assumption (bad mistake!) that if a name didn't show up on a search then it wasn't indexed.  I hadn't understood that the indexes (indices?) were images that had not been transcribed.

Many, many thanks
Philip
Title: Re: Excise officers
Post by: sihuss on Monday 20 February 17 21:08 GMT (UK)
Thanks for the steer on this.  Sadly I only found 2 index references to my Excise Officer, Dudley Hussey (1786-1852).  I know from House of Commons Parliamentary Papers that he retired from Excise in 1838 having served for 34 years.  (I got a look-up on the 2 entries and they were both transfers - Wexford to Waterford in 1833 and Waterford to Enniscorthy in 1838).

Anyone any thoughts/suggestions?
Title: Re: Excise officers
Post by: BradMajors on Sunday 11 March 18 20:42 GMT (UK)
The index to the excise minutes books is available for free online, but has never been transcribed.

Is there interest in starting a project to provide an online searchable index? 

I have done similar projects in the past and I am capable of providing the computer and website expertise.  My experience has also been that there would be a large number of persons who would utilize such an interest, but extremely few persons who would be willing to assist with the transcription.  I was thinking perhaps a way around this problem would be to require anyone who wanted to view the index be required to transcribe a few pages.
Title: Re: Excise officers
Post by: whitej on Monday 12 March 18 16:03 GMT (UK)
hello

My ancestor John Cameron was a tidewaiter based at Perth Custom House, Perth, Scotland. He died in 1814 aged 56. Would he be in these records?

thanks  Jamie
Title: Re: Excise officers
Post by: Flattybasher9 on Monday 12 March 18 16:34 GMT (UK)
If you like a read about a certain Excise officer, have a read of the following.

https://scotchwhisky.com/magazine/whisky-heroes/13105/malcolm-gillespie-gillespie-the-gauger/

https://archive.org/stream/areporttrialmal00edwagoog#page/n5/mode/2up

He has a bit of notoriety regarding Aberdeen. :o :o

Malky

Title: Re: Excise officers
Post by: whitej on Tuesday 13 March 18 10:12 GMT (UK)
Interesting links.

But what about my question regarding John Cameron tidewaiter Perth? Could he be in these records?
Title: Re: Excise officers
Post by: Flattybasher9 on Tuesday 13 March 18 10:34 GMT (UK)
Questions and answers from the past :-

http://www.talkingscot.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=17289

Replies 3 and 6 of the following :-

http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=777173.0

Malky
Title: Re: Excise officers
Post by: vladzod99 on Thursday 06 September 18 06:06 BST (UK)
Hi there.  I am conducting family tree research from Australia.

I am trying to find an excise officer called John Meredith (probably born sometime between 1770 and 1806, probably born in Wales or less likely Lancashire) .  John Meredith was stated to be an excise officer in the Australian death certificate of his son James Frederick Meredith.

As James was born in Knighton, Radnorshire, Wales in 1824 we know that his father John Meredith had to be born sometime before 1806 and that he was living in or near Knighton in 1824.

From searching the National Archives I've determined that he is not the John Meredith who became an excise officer in 1844 (as that John Meredith is too young).  I've not found anything useful when searching google books or the Lancashire business directory's.

I suspect from the 1851 census that he may instead be the John Meredith who was 75, born Knighton Radnorshire and stated to be a superannuated excise officer.  At that time in 1851, that John Meredith was living at Bishops Stortford in Hertfordshire.

However, it is also possible that the John Meredith I am looking for could be 10 years or so younger than that and had lived at various times in Lancashire or Radnorshire, Wales.

I would greatly appreciate it if anyone was able to find any information about any John Meredith's who were excise officers born in the time period about 1770 to 1806 in England or Wales, as I'm afraid I seem to have run into a dead end in my research.

Much thanks if you are able to be of help with my search, particularly if you have an ATHENS password.



Title: Re: Excise officers
Post by: Liza115 on Tuesday 18 September 18 03:33 BST (UK)
Thanks, Bookbox. Following your link was the first time I've managed to find any useful images through the National Archives website. It's not an easy site to get to grips with!
I managed to find William Price, the excise man I'm looking for, in image 20 of the index at CUST 47/715.

http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C13440027

This is the minute book for Tuesday, Thursday and Saturday, 1 Aug 1857 to 9 Jan 1858. His name is indexed with the numbers 37 and 57 beside it. I worked out that 37 and 57 are not page numbers (because there are only about 30 images for each book) but maybe refer to the notations on the pages.
I assume the index relates only to the volume I'm looking at. I couldn't find anything marked 57, and the one for 37 said: "Mold Ride Wales North Collection converted into a Division to be called Mold 2 Div'n". He was living in Ireland then, but may have died soon after. How might '37' relate to him?
Are the minute books whose images I can see the entire record, or do they refer to something else I need to look up in person at Kew?
Thanks for any further light you (or anyone else) can shed on this.
Liz115

 
Title: Re: Excise officers
Post by: StevieSteve on Tuesday 18 September 18 09:45 BST (UK)
Actually 37 and 57 are the page numbers. You're seeing the alphabetical  index at the front of the book which explains why there are about 26 images...

The entries will need looking at at TNA
Title: Re: Excise officers
Post by: Liza115 on Tuesday 18 September 18 10:47 BST (UK)
Thanks, StevieSteve.
So there is actually more information to see about the people mentioned in this index that isn't available online? That's what wasn't clear to me.
It is a bit puzzling, because in amongst the indexed names are indexed lists of things that have happened. Sometimes the index number for the action does match the number for the name. For example, at CUST 47/720/1, dated 1858, it mentions William Price -- 75, and "Three 1st Class Assistants to Dublin 4 Divn, in Dublin Colln -- 75. That might be where he was, but it is a common name.
I'll just have to make a trip to the National Archives and look in person to find out.  :)

Title: Re: Excise officers
Post by: StevieSteve on Tuesday 18 September 18 11:52 BST (UK)
Hi

In the minute book there's a quick summary of the full note in the left hand margin. That's what's being indexed. There can be more than one note per page so they may not be connected so William Price may not be involved in the Dublin note.

In my experience, the Dublin example will say something like

Following the minute of last ... 3 Assistants were appointed to Dublin namely X of Y Collection, Z of B Collection and C of W Collection. It will list their replacements for their old jobs and then their replacements and so on  which can become quite a chain if they're higher-ups
Title: Re: Excise officers
Post by: Bookbox on Tuesday 18 September 18 11:53 BST (UK)
So there is actually more information to see about the people mentioned in this index that isn't available online?

The index that you're looking at online provides page references leading to more information in the Minute Books.

The entries in the Minute Books (at Kew, not online) can be informative as regards appointments and salaries. Some examples below, although the dates are earlier than yours (and names have been edited here):

Wednesday 9 December 1818
Charles Cooper, Officer of Portsmouth 3rd Division, Hants Collection, being by Minute of 1st instant appointed a Port Officer in the Port of London, ordered that William Clark, Officer of the Stockbridge 1st Ride, Sarum Collection, succeed him on the Head of the Board. (National Archives, CUST 47/513, p. 118)

Saturday 6 February 1819
Ordered ... that James Robins, Officer of Gosport, 1st Division, Hants Collection, be Officer to attend the Packing and Shipping of Excisable Commodities for Exportation at Gosport in the Room of Charles Cooper, removed (National Archives, CUST 47/514, pp. 79-80)

Tuesday 8 August 1820
Ordered that ... Charles Cooper ... Port Officer at £100 per annum be [one] of the new Port Officers at £101.15 per annum (National Archives, CUST 47/523, pp. 3-5).


ADDED - supplementing StevieSteve's post.
Title: Re: Excise officers
Post by: Liza115 on Tuesday 18 September 18 22:11 BST (UK)
StevieSteve and Bookbox, thank you both so much for giving examples of the type of material in the actual minute books. I was confused by seeing the short forms of minutes included in the index. Now I get it! Will have to visit in person for sure. Too bad it's so far away.

Title: Re: Excise officers
Post by: kingtonmagna on Tuesday 06 November 18 05:30 GMT (UK)
Hi anyone that has access to the excise men records-Am unfamiliar with Athens!
The name I am wanting to find is Thomas Ronald. Our family records say this:Great grandfather Thomas Ronald (1760-1844) in his youth worked on a large stock farm in Ayrshire for a man who was in with the smugglers along the Ayrshire coast.
 He, with the other men on the farm was sent on horseback to bring in the kegs of wines and other liquor, bales of silks, etc. brought from France. He changed his ways and some years after his marriage to Margaret Stewart in 1793 was made excise man. Now according to my records they were married in Paisley, I suppose this means he worked in Renfrewshire possibly anywhere between 1793--1800 This is all I know.
Thanks for any help
kingtonmagna
Title: Re: Excise officers
Post by: StevieSteve on Tuesday 06 November 18 08:08 GMT (UK)
Hi

I don't know about Athens either but this is what you can do for the TNA records

First, on their website search for Thomas Ronald in CUST 116 to find a start date

I've done that and didn't find anything so, assuming that you don't either, then that suggests he would have joined before 1820

You then need to search the Index to Minute Books in CUST 47. By that, I mean drill down into each catalogue item and look at the preview. Say start from 1793 and onwards. In the preview, scroll through to surnames beginning with R and note the Page number (along with the full CUST 47 reference) for any references to Thomas Ronald.

Then post the details on here so that someone can get out the actual items
Title: Re: Excise officers
Post by: StevieSteve on Tuesday 06 November 18 08:15 GMT (UK)
Liza115

I've started going back to TNA after a break, so if you haven't yet been to TNA, post up any references and I 'll have a look next month
Title: Re: Excise officers
Post by: Liza115 on Tuesday 06 November 18 11:38 GMT (UK)
StevieSteve
What a kind offer! Thank you very much. I'm hoping to get to the National Archives next June, but I know there won't be enough time for all the things I want to look up, so it would be wonderful if you could give me a head start.
I've been working my way backwards through the indexes, from the year his youngest child was born. So far, I've found about 20 references to him between 1835 and 1860, but haven't looked earlier or later than that yet. Would you mind looking for these four when you have time:
CUST 47/614 William B Price, page 9 (1835 -- I'm not sure of that middle initial, but it's worth investigating)
CUST 47/629 William Price, page 45 (1838)
CUST 47/691 William Price, page 73 (1853)
CUST 47/715 William Price, pages 37 and 57 (1857-58)
I'm hoping that will give me a few clues about his movements and maybe his age.
Let me know if you need any more detail for the references.
Thanks so much for your help, it's much appreciated!
Cheers
Liza115

 
Title: Re: Excise officers
Post by: StevieSteve on Tuesday 06 November 18 12:07 GMT (UK)
Hi there, no problem

If you want to list all the other references (no need for the year) that'll be fine too - they're very quick to deal with. And if you actually do have 20, then they can be pre-ordered in one hit, otherwise it's the first 12.

Steve

Title: Re: Excise officers
Post by: Liza115 on Tuesday 06 November 18 21:01 GMT (UK)
StevieSteve
I wasn't sure how onerous a task it would be to look up so many, after hearing about the three documents an hour, so I didn't want to overload you. If it's easy to do 20, that's brilliant!
Here's the list (so far -- c 1835 - 1860)
CUST 47/614/1 -- William B Price, 9  [middle initial could mean it's someone else]
CUST 47/629/1 -- William Price, 45
CUST 47/637/1 -- William Price, 14
CUST 47/638/1 -- William Price, 83
CUST 47/656/1 -- William Price, 114
CUST 47/658/1 -- William Price, 107
CUST 47/665/1 -- William Price, 163
CUST 47/669/1 -- William Price, 144
CUST 47/676/1 -- William Price, 123
CUST 47/680/1 -- William Price, 31
CUST 47/687/1 -- William Price, 75
CUST 47/691/1 -- William Price, 73
CUST 47/695/1 -- William Price, 79
CUST 47/707/1 -- William Price, 98
CUST 47/708/1 -- William Price, 108
CUST 47/711/1 -- William Price, 62
CUST 47/715/1 -- William Price, 37, 57
CUST 47/716/1 -- William Price, 90
CUST 47/720/1 -- William Price, 75
CUST 47/726/1 -- William Price, 25
While trawling through these indexes, I was just looking for someone who could be William Price. There were men with the same surname but different initials, who were easy to discount. It has only occurred to me now that some of the ones I wrote down said 'William' or 'Wm' and some just said 'W'. It's possible that some I have claimed are actually for Walter Price, another name I saw there somewhere, but not of interest.
I'll go through the earlier and later indexes and see if I can add any more to this list in the next few days.
This man or his parents were said to be from Ellesmere, Shropshire, but he may have spent most or all of his career in Ireland. His eldest known child was born c 1846 (location unknown). His last known child was born in 1857 in Co Tyrone, and he is described as excise officer, deceased, on his daughter's marriage certificate in 1873. His wife and children lived in Coleraine, Londonderry, after he died. His wife, Elizabeth, died in 1896 aged 72, in England.
Thanks, StevieSteve, I really appreciate your efforts with this.
Cheers
Liza115 
Title: Re: Excise officers
Post by: Liza115 on Monday 19 November 18 08:34 GMT (UK)
After wading through more Excise minute book indexes, I've come to the end of references to William Price. There were seven earlier mentions of him, in addition to the previous list:
CUST 47/527/1 - 112
CUST 47/531/1 - 32
CUST 47/533/1 - 59, 102
CUST 47/535/1 - 13
CUST 47/563/1 - 81
CUST 47/598/1 - 56
CUST 47/600/1 - 24
However, I'm pretty sure that the William B Price in CUST 47/614/1 I included on the previous list is a different man. He is mentioned regularly in earlier records with the middle name Barnsley, and is not of interest to me.
That adds up to mentions in 26 minute books out of the 200+ I looked at. If all of these are indeed for the same man, his career in Excise seems to have run from 1821 until about 1860.
Steve, if this is too many to look up, the priority would be for the first few, to show where he started out, and the last five, which might confirm where he was living when he died. Thanks again for any you can look up.
I looked through the indexes all the way to the last one, CUST 47/749/1, which was for 1867. Does anyone know if there are other indexes for Excise men who were employed after that? I have another in my tree who started work probably between 1870 and 1875.
Title: Re: Excise officers
Post by: StevieSteve on Monday 26 November 18 13:08 GMT (UK)
Hi Liza115

All ordered for Saturday

Regarding later dates, TNA say they have

Pension records and staff lists of Excise and Inland Revenue officers (1642-1970)
Browse CUST 39 in our catalogue for pension records and staff lists of Excise and Inland Revenue officers. These records have not been indexed, so you will need to search records for the relevant years. Most of the Inland Revenue staff files are in CUST 39/235-248. There is also a staff list for 1692 in CUST 109/9.

Inland Revenue establishment lists (1869-1920)
Browse IR 147 in our catalogue for details of Inland Revenue officials. It covers staff in England, Wales, Scotland and Ireland. Details include dates of appointment and promotion, salary, place of employment and, in some cases, date of birth.

Books
Consult Ham’s Year Book, Ham’s Customs Year Book and Ham’s Inland Revenue Year Book, available in major research libraries. These are indexed directories of Customs officers, Excise men and Inland Revenue officials covering 1875 to 1930. To access these records you will either need to visit us, pay for research (£) or, where you can identify a specific record reference, order a copy (£).

Customs Board minute books (1734-1885)
Browse CUST 28 in Discovery, our catalogue, for minute books of Customs officers. These do not record appointments but include details such as leave, transfers, suspensions, sackings, resignations and pensions for existing officers.

Unfortunately, because of a fire at Custom House in London in 1814, very few minute books from before 1814 have survived.

From 1839 the volumes are quarterly. They are internally indexed, but before 1849 some of them have been split into two parts, with the index in the first part.


I've not had experience with any of them though TNA add

As there is no single index of people or places that can be used to find service records your search for information may require some patience.
Title: Re: Excise officers
Post by: Liza115 on Monday 26 November 18 20:54 GMT (UK)
StevieSteve
What a lot of potential records there are for Excise men. I certainly won't run out of things to look for at National Archives when I do get there. Fortunately my later excise man turns up in lots of other records (not work related) so information about him is a bit more accessible. 
Meanwhile, it will be fascinating to see what you find out about my mystery man, William Price.
Looking forward to it!
Liza115
Title: Re: Excise officers
Post by: StevieSteve on Sunday 02 December 18 08:56 GMT (UK)
Hmm...

Title: Re: Excise officers
Post by: Liza115 on Sunday 02 December 18 09:01 GMT (UK)
Yikes!
Title: Re: Excise officers
Post by: Liza115 on Sunday 02 December 18 09:04 GMT (UK)
Looks like lots of potential there. How did you get on?
Title: Re: Excise officers
Post by: StevieSteve on Sunday 02 December 18 09:13 GMT (UK)
Here's the breakdown of who's yours. Looks like it covers his whole career

CUST 47/527/1 -- Someone else, Lampeter
CUST 47/531/1 -- Someone else, Gravesend
CUST 47/533/1 -- Someone else, Stratford
CUST 47/535/1 -- Someone else, Leighton
CUST 47/563/1 -- Not Available
CUST 47/598/1 -- Not Available
CUST 47/600/1 -- Someone else, Wycombe
CUST 47/614/1 -- Someone else, Wolverhampton
CUST 47/629/1 -- Someone else, BerkHampstead
CUST 47/637/1 -- Someone else, Hemel Hempstead
CUST 47/638/1 -- Someone else, Hempstead
CUST 47/656/1 -- YES
CUST 47/658/1 -- YES
CUST 47/665/1 -- YES
CUST 47/669/1 -- YES
CUST 47/676/1 -- YES
CUST 47/680/1 -- YES
CUST 47/687/1 -- YES
CUST 47/691/1 -- YES
CUST 47/695/1 -- Someone else, Pwllheli
CUST 47/707/1 -- YES
CUST 47/708/1 -- YES
CUST 47/711/1 -- Someone else, Hempstead
CUST 47/715/1 -- YES
CUST 47/716/1 -- YES
CUST 47/720/1 -- YES
CUST 47/726/1 -- Someone else, Clerk

If you PM an email address, I'll send over the images though it will take a little while to get them in the right order

Title: Re: Excise officers
Post by: Liza115 on Sunday 02 December 18 09:30 GMT (UK)
StevieSteve
Thanks so very much!  :D I have sent you my email address in a PM.
I really appreciate the time you have spent on this. That shows real dedication.
Let me know if you ever need anything looked up in person here in New Zealand. I'd be happy to return the favour.
Liz
Title: Re: Excise officers
Post by: StevieSteve on Sunday 02 December 18 10:14 GMT (UK)
Got your message, Liz, and thanks for the offer

Ready to send now; files are large so there'll be several mails, let me know if any don't arrive

Steve
Title: Re: Excise officers
Post by: Liza115 on Sunday 02 December 18 21:43 GMT (UK)
I have just had a quick read through, but will be studying the details more closely and find those places on the map. The records are really useful for tracing his movements. It confirms him in the place where his daughter was born, and the date and place where he died matches the details for letters of admin found elsewhere. With common names, it's hard to know when you've got the right person or someone else.
Great result, thanks again, StevieSteve!
Liz
 
Title: Re: Excise officers
Post by: Liza115 on Tuesday 04 December 18 03:43 GMT (UK)
Just to update, after finding that this excise officer was posted to Scotland briefly, before spending the rest of his career in Ireland, I have located his marriage in Glasgow. Yes! :D
Title: Re: Excise officers
Post by: Bates51 on Wednesday 07 June 23 22:07 BST (UK)
I’m also stuck on finding anything on my ancestor who was an Irish supervisor of excise. He was William Johnston, likely born around 1790, and was based in Granard, Longford at one time. He was married to Jane, and is possibly from Cavan. His younger daughter Alice was born around 1819 and is my 2x great grandmother. I would really appreciate any help as William and Jane are presenting a major brick wall.