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Wales (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Wales => Pembrokeshire => Topic started by: becca.morgan on Tuesday 31 August 10 14:39 BST (UK)
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Hi there, back on this website after many years absence!
Jonah Morgan, born c.1817, however place of birth changes from census to census - in 1861 it's Begelly; 1871 it's Carmarthenshire; 1881 it's Llandewey, Pembs, and 1891 it's St Clears, Carmarthenshire! All we know for sure is he married Sarah Davies in Narbeth in 1843, with his oldest son John born in Begelly in 1844. I am descended from his son Levi, also born in Begelly in 1856.
I would greatly appreciate any tips on how to pin down Jonah; following the Morgan name has always been a key interest of mine and my relatives.
Thanks in advance,
Becca
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This look like him
1851 HO107; Piece: 2475; Folio: 558; Page: 29
Corluck, Narberth.
Jonah Morgan 33 b Llandower/ Llandowror Carmarthenshire.
Sarah Morgan 33 b Narberth
William N Davies stepson 11 b Narberth
John Morgan 7 b Narberth
Elizabeth Morgan 1 b Narberth
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............All we know for sure is he married Sarah Davies in Narbeth in 1843...........
Becca
Since you have ascertained that Jonah mrd Sarah Davies at Narberth (I presume)
Parish church, and with Narberth being just one on of the many parish Churches, Chapels, and Registry Offices being covered by Narberth Registration District, I presume you have the mrge certificate. What is Jonah’s fathers name on the Certificate.
Had I been given the details you show without the location of mrge, then from my research I would be 90% sure you would be looking at a non-conformist family, however with the confidence shown that the mrge actually took place at Narberth then clearly my analysis is mis-directed.
Rgds
Orielbenfro
ORIEL a welsh window on a surname
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I am researching my Morgan/Williams family from Llandowror and wonder if there may be a link with your Morgans. My Thomas Morgan (Bn 1767), farmer, married Sarah Williams (Bn 1767), the daughter of a Mr Williams and Sarah Oriel (daughter of Thomas Oriel) who married at Llandowror about 1760.
Thomas Morgan's forebears seem to come from Llandilo Fawr while the Williams seem to have long been based in Llandowror. Imagine the Oriels might have hailed from Orielton, PEM. I know nothing more of these families or their origins but would very much like to and would much appreciate any assistance from anyone familiar with these families in these areas.
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My Thomas Morgan (Bn 1767), farmer, married Sarah Williams (Bn 1767), the daughter of a Mr Williams and Sarah Oriel (daughter of Thomas Oriel) who married at Llandowror about 1760.
Gosh ~ Where do I start ? I have studied and researched the ORIEL surname in London, Wiltshire and Pembrokeshire since the mid 1970’s and have 2 volumes of photographs and 6 volumes of related documents on the Pembrokeshire family. I reckon that you are the 1st Australian (excluding my Bro-in-Law’s family in Brisbane area) who is descended from the Oriel’s of Pembrokeshire, all other Oriel descended persons in Australia relate back to James & Sarah Oriel nee’ Martin of Wiltshire. In about 1978 I set out to prove a common link between the Oriel's of London, Wilts and Pembs ~ as of 2012, I am still trying.
My research shows the Pembs Oriel’s family where never at Orielton Estate, 1345 to 2012.
I believe the family date back to one De Oriel, follower of Anulph De Montgomery who was given lands by William the Conqueror, out of which the county of Montgomeryshire would grow. Montgomery was a frequent visitor to Pembroke Castle and the area, probably dragging ‘De Oriel’ with him who presumably stopped and stayed whether it was at the Orielton Estate is not known. The surname Oriel can be established in Falaise Normandy France circa 1066 where William the Conqueror was born and is still researched in the area to the present day. However Oriel is also the welsh word for window and/or gallery as in Oriel window and Oriel art.
Turning to Sarah Morgan nee’ Williams. I am quite happy to be proven wrong but as far as I can establish Sarah Williams is the daughter of a Thomas Williams and Elizabeth Oriel who mrd at Marros 19 Sep 1765. To date there is no mrge that can be attributed to Sarah in Carmarthenshire of Pembrokeshire
Sarah Morgan was a widow when she laid claim to the Oriel family farm of Garnass through her mother, in the parish of Crunwere (modern Llanteg ~ it has an excellent website).
The Oriels leased and later owned Garness continuously from at least 1720 upto the death of Mary Elizabeth Oriel nee’ Reynolds in 1973, when the farm was sold off as per Mary’s instructions, although Freddie her unmrd son remained there living in a caravan for sometime after, a continuous residence of over 250 yrs, no other family has ever resided in the parish for as long as the Oriel’s.
Your Sarah Morgan (nee’ Williams) can be found in the wills of Thomas Oriel of 1782, Thomas Williams of 1792 and William Oriel of 1795, I have many other Oriel related wills over the centuries.
Your Sarah Morgan (Widow) was central to a large expensive court case of circa 1800 when she attempted to claim Garnass Farm also known as Garnass Rock (which at this time included the mill)for herself, this was due to prior quick deaths and ¼’s of the Garness bequeathed and bequeathed again. Sarah failed in her quest and the farm passed to Thomas Oriel, who I believe then built a new house circa 1802 since demolished but I do have photo’s, I believe they previous lived in what became the out houses of the ‘new’ house, again I have photo’s on file.
Joseph Oriel is also in the will of Thomas Oriel of 1792 and William Oriel of 1795 owned Underhill Farm at Marros, the original house still stands.
William Oriel of 1795 is of Llandowror was the Forrester to Lord Milford.
I can track the family back through various modern world and UK locations and families, via the likes of Caldey Island, Garness, Pembroke Town, Haverfordwest, & Spittal to 25 May 1480 and Stephen Oriell of Nethir Angle, sometime Nangle, modern village of Angle.
Rgds
Orielbenfro
ORIEL a welsh window on a surname
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Wow - this has greatly exceded all my expectations of discovering something about my Welsh roots!! Thank you very much indeed Orielbenfro for this thumbnail sketch of the Oriel history. I would love to know more if you are happy to share anything further. Should you wish to do this by email I am contactable on *. I am in no doubt that your identification of Elizabeth Oriel (rather than Sarah) as being the mother of my Sarah Williams/Morgan is a more informed opinion as I am rather a novice on Welsh genealogy - do you have any further information on the structure of the family around that time that you would be happy to pass on? The long association of the family with Garnass is amazing - I wonder if it changed very much in its management over all those years, in addition to the changes in the homes you mentioned.
I do hope we can be in touch further regarding this most interesting family (certainly interesting when it is one's own forebears) that I have known absolutely nothing about until today! Thank you Orielbenfro.
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You could start by looking at the wills mentioned which can be viewed for free at ;
http://cat.llgc.org.uk/cgi-bin/gw/chameleon?skin=profeb&lng=en
Rgds
Orielbenfro
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Thanks orielbenfro, much appreciate the link. You have inspired me to dig as there seems to be much to find!!
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Hello again Orielbenfro. I have been revisiting my Oriel/Williams family of Garnass, PEM that you so kindly helped me with a while back. I have 2 questions I am hoping you might be able to help me with. 1) Can you please advise if the Will of Thomas Williams 1792 that you mentioned is on the Wales National Library free online site you referenced (I couldn't find him there, though I did find the other two), and 2) Are you able to tell me who was the father/grandfather of the Thomas Oriel who took over Garnass after Sarah Williams lost her claim to it? Was it James or William (sons of Thomas Oriel of Garnass)? Thank you so very much for opening this 'window' on this family for me. Are you aware of any other material I could access to further my understanding of this family? Preferably online as I am so far from physical sources. Thank you in anticipation, NSWelshwoman
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1) Can you please advise if the Will of Thomas Williams 1792 that you mentioned is on the Wales National Library free online site you referenced
2) Are you able to tell me who was the father/grandfather of the Thomas Oriel who took over Garnass after Sarah Williams lost her claim to it? Was it James or William (sons of Thomas Oriel of Garnass)?
3) Are you aware of any other material I could access to further my understanding of this family? NSWelshwoman
Answers
1) Yes SD -1800/30
2) No, but I could have a pretty good guess. Thomas Oriel already held Garnass prior to the court case. The Law just confirmed his right to the Farm.
3) No, there is no depository, person, or research establishment worldwide that comes anywhere close to my Documented and Photographic history of the family from 1480 to the present, I’m afraid its all sat on the shelves of my study. I'm afraid there is far more tinvloved with research that just what can be found online.
4) Have you looked at ; http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/wal/PEM/Pemtax1.html
Rgds
Orielbenfro
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Thank you Orielbenfro for responding so promptly. The genuki reference is great - most interesting thank you. I have just looked through the Thomas Williams Will 1800/30, of Tally Parish, CAM (thanks for this ref too). I am not sure if I have the right will here though as I can find no mention of Sarah Williams. Am I missing something?
As to my preference for online sources, I do hope that I can follow up soon with a visit to Camarthen to check out what I can. I am enormously grateful, however, that one can do so much on line as a "first port of call" to get a bit of an idea about the scope of things, prior to making arrangements to trek across the globe to research original sources. That said, however, I greatly appreciate your help in pointing me in these useful directions. Regards, NSWelshwoman
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Drop me an email address by P.M. only and I will send you a copy of the will.
Rgds
Owen Ap Benfro