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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Topic started by: Ken S on Tuesday 31 August 10 19:01 BST (UK)
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My gg grandparents were a William Douglas and Helen Patterson .. I believe they married at Tongue Sutherland: 17 Dec 1824 .. and had some family at Farr Sutherlandshire.... then came to Canada around 1837 - 1845.
Some of their family settled in Lambton Co. Ontario. A history of Lambton .. wrote around 1903, gave family history as .... "William Douglas born 1799 in the Lowlands of Scotland and his wife Helen Patterson born 1803 Northumberland England"
First I have one question .. what area in Scotland would be called the lowlands? And can anybody find a possible baptism for this William Douglas (in 1799 .. assuming my history book is correct, on that date) I have no idea, who his parents would be or if he had brothers and sisters. This same William Douglas died around London Ontario in 1859 .. he was in the cattle business .. and down as a Shepherd .. back in Scotland.
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Hi Ken
there are according to Scotlands People, 3 William Douglas's born 1799 in Scotland. Minimal details below, for full details you will need to download records from SP.
1.Eccles,Berwick(Lowlands)- fathers name John
2.Libberton,Lanark(do not think this is classed as lowlands) - fathers name George
3.Minnigaff,Kirkcudbright(Lowlands) - fathers name William
Fiona
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If you have a look at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scottish_Highlands the article will explain the division between Highlands and Lowlands in Scotland. All three of the above persons found by Fiona would be classified at that time as having been born in the Lowlands.
Tongue in Sutherland is almost as far North as you could get and remain on the mainland
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Hi Ken
I assume the info you have has added to the info found here http://bonjour-family.org/Web/allmyfami/pafg107.htm
Just pure speculation on my part here, working off the list of names showing for children and the info linked above showing Helen Paterson as being born in Northumberland.
From IGI, the marriage on 17 DEC 1824 Tongue, Sutherland, and children showing to them:
1. THOMAS DOUGLAS Birth: 10 JUN 1825 Tonge, Sutherland - submitted entry
2. JANE DOUGLAS Christening: 26 JUN 1826 Tongue, Sutherland
3. ANTHONY DOUGLASSBirth: 25 APR 1829 Farr, Sutherland
4. JANE DOUGLASS Birth: 13 APR 1831 Farr, Sutherland
5. OLIVER DOUGLASS Christening: 18 FEB 1836 Farr, Sutherland
These are all available as original images from the Old Parish Registers on www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk
The speculation here on my part is that William and Helen may have followed some form of naming pattern in the choice of names for their children (see for example www.halmyre.abel.co.uk/Family/naming.htm)
Assuming they have, some possible IGI entries for Helen and William:
WILLIAM DOUGLESS Birth: 07 DEC 1798 Yetholm, Roxburgh
Parents: THOMAS DOUGLESS and OLIVER YOUNG
ELEANOR PATTERSON Birth: 21 SEP 1803/ Christening: 29 SEP 1803 Presbyterian, Branton, Northumberland
Parents: ANTHONY PATTERSON and JANE
Monica
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Hey, I'm warming up to my speculation ;D
I was wondering why a boy and girl so far down ended up in marrying in Tongue....
From the 1841 census, could this be William's family, with the parents mentioned above:
Thomas Douglas 65, shepherd b. England
Oliver Douglas 65 b. Scotland
James Douglas 35 shepherd, b. Scotland
Christiana Douglas 25
Alexr Douglas 10
Betsy Douglas 2
Oliver Douglas 2 Months
Margaret Douglas 7
William Douglas 20 shepherd, b. England...I am hoping this might be a relation not son!
Mary Mckay 20, female servant
Marion Mckay 20, female servant
Address: Clibrig, Farr Sutherland
Points to note on the 1841 census. Relationships within the household are not shown and ages were supposed to be rounded to the nearest 5 years for everyone over 15. Children under 15 are supposed to show at their actual age.
Other children showing to apart from the William we had in 1798 on IGI were:
1. JOHN DOUGLASS Birth: 26 JUL 1800 Yetholm, Roxburgh
2. THOMAS DOUGLASS Birth: 04 OCT 1802 Yetholm, Roxburgh
3. JAMES DOUGLASS Christening: 21 MAY 1805 Yetholm, Roxburgh
Monica :)
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And could this be Helen's family in 1841:
Anthony Paterson 60, agr. lab. b. England
Jane Paterson 60 b. England
John Paterson 15 b. Scotland
John Macdonald 10
Address: Borrowston, Reay, Caithness
Monica
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Can't easily see the Douglas family in 1851, but a possibility for the Anthony Paterson (http://freecen.rootsweb.com/ is 100% complete for Caithness for this census so you should be able to check his marital status which is included there):
Anthony Paterson 75, Manger Or Farm Of 100 Acres, b. Oxman, Roxburghshire
Ann Macdonald 52, servant b. Reay, Caithness
Williaminna Paterson 17 servant b. Farr, Sutherland
John Paterson 6 grandson b. Farr, Sutherland
Thos Paterson 34, visitor b. Farr, Sutherland
Address: Borrowston, Reay, Caithness
Monica
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In 1851 .. William Douglas & Helen (nee Patterson) are already in Ontario Canada
I am descended from their son James .. and have his death notice from the Alvinston Ontario newspaper .. Feb 22 1928 .......
LATE JAMES DOUGLAS
ON Sunday Feb 12 death claimed another of the early pioneers of Brooke (township) , passed away in the person of James Douglas, in his 90th year, after many years as an invalid at his home.
The late Mr Douglas was born in Inverneess Sutherlandshire Scotland in the year 1838. In the year 1839, with his parents he came to Canada and settled in Kingston, a few years later taking up a farm on the Bay of Quinte, where he walked several miles to school. They lived there several years then moving to London (ontario) where his elder brothers kept a butcher shop. ..... he also served 3 and a half years in the American Civil war ...( as a Canadian, he was in the civil war) etc etc.
Soooo: I think the date of 1837 .. for coming to Canada (which is a quote from a Lambton County Ontartio: history book wrote in 1903) is out a bit .. as James was born to them in Scotland in 1838!
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I understand Ken. Just trying to see what early census entries we could find for possible parents :) Certainly no trace of your William and Helen in censuses in Scotland which would fit with the emigration date you have given their last child in Scotland, Oliver, was born in 1836.
Monica
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This History of Lambton County Ontario Canada 1903 .. going to the page with Douglas family history .. can be read here http://www.archive.org/stream/recordlambton00beeruoft#page/284/mode/2up/search/Douglas ..
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Always good to read original material :)
I am not sure what your thoughts are on the info I have posted. I can see a few other bits, but not sure whether you think the details posted are a possibility.
Monica
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As to why they were in Tongue ... if the family were shepherds they may have been brought in to tend the huge flocks of sheep which were now grazing where people had once lived - Sutherland was the scene of the worst of the Highland Clearances
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Thankyou everyone for looking for me .. sure giving me something to think about!
When oldest son Thomas died .. The Strathroy Dispatch (Ontario, Canada) stated ..... "We learn that deceased was born in Sutherlandshire Scotland in 1825 and emigrated with his father to Canada in 1838, first settling in Kingston, where he commenced the butchering business....."
And when brother Anthony died ..... Petrolia Advertiser (Ontario Canada) .... " died at the great age of 93, having been born in Scotland on Apr 29 1829. When a lad of 13, deceased came to Canada, locating first at Kingston, then London, Adelaide (township, Middlesex County Ont) Brooke (township Lambton County) and then Enniskillen (township.) in the order named ...."
Here in Ontario .. one lady did do some Douglas research .. and in a small booklet .. she says ... " From family tradition we understand that they (Douglas family) lived along the rugged western coast of Scotland in the area of Argyllshire. From Scottish parish records their marrage is listed at Tongue and Anthony, Oliver and 2 Janes are recorded in the birth records of Farr.... I assume the 1st Jane must have died
1851 Fredericksburg Lennox County Ontario Canada
DOUGLAS William 54 born: Scotland Farmer Presbyterian
Ellen 48 England
Thomas 26 Scotland
Anthon 22 "
Jane 20 "
Oliver 17 "
James 14 "
Samuel 4
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Hi Ken
Not sure about the "From family tradition we understand that they (douglas's) lived along the rugged western coast of Scotland in the area of Argyllshire" but everything else is backed up by entries to be found on the Old Parish Registers for William and Helen's life post their marriage whilst still in Scotland.
This is a great map for counties in Scotland www.scotlandsfamily.com/county-map.htm and for parishes within counties www.scotlandsfamily.com/parish-maps.htm
If I can give you some advice from experience in research in this time period pre 1841 and the first census. You are fortunate that the marriage and children's births show on the OPRs. If you haven't viewed the images of the births/christenings on www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk, you might want to consider this. For christenings, sponsors names can often help to tie in family members. You are looking really for all possible clues from any source. Don't know what the style of the marriage register for Tongue was at the time of William and Helen's marriage, but also worth checking to see what it actually says (image for this should also be available on SP).
Bear in mind when searching for records for Helen that the name has numerous variants at that time. Thinking of that 1803 birth and christening for an Eleanor Paterson, daughter of Anthony and Jane, this site gives you an idea on variants www.whatsinaname.net/php/search.php?action=search2&search_name=eleanor
Googling around, can't see very much around for Thomas Douglas and Oliver Young. There is though some info for Anthony Paterson (note that in Scotland, the common spelling of Paterson is with a single T) and wife Jane. I believe, from what I have seen, her maiden names was GRECIAN/GRECHIAN). I don't know whether you have a subs. to Ancestry, but there are numerous family trees for this line, confirming very much what we have seen so far and the family's move from Northumberland to Scotland. Various trees have possible siblings to Nelly, with marriages in Tongue and various other places in the area. Also, a number of the brothers seem to have headed off to Australia and NZ.
I also found this old post here on RC regarding possible entries for the family of Anthony Paterson and Jane Grecian www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?PHPSESSID=6bau0k50o6k46lr9vnrngoqku5&topic=45412.300 Very long post! This link starts from post 300, which is the relevant one including the ones that follow.
I also found this comment interesting, re-inforcing Falkryn's earlier comment, from post 304 on the page:
You probably already know this but just in case you don't, the reason that so many families "emigrated" from the Scottish Borders and the County of Northumberland to the County of Sutherland was because the men were shepherds. They were in demand because of their experience with the "big" sheep, which were introduced as one of the Sutherlands' "improvements".
Monica :)
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Monica .. your giving me a lot here :)
Both William and wife Helen .. I believe .. died in or near London Ontario .. William in 1859 and Helen in 1862. But no one in the family knows where they were buried .. and I have not found a death notice for either (although London Ontario had a paper .. in that time period .. and it is on Micro-film) which could give me more info.
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Would certainly be worth looking for an obituary there. I would guess, from the little I have seen on death certs for this period of William and Helen's deaths, that they are unlikely to include parents' details (worth checking out as to what you can expect to find if you do happen to find their death entries).
Monica
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I emailed the history room at our local London Ontario library .. but I had no luck ...... "their Email, back to me....
" Hello, We have an index to names in the London Free Press newspaper, in bookform, from January 1, 1849 to July 1 1861, followed by a card index fromJuly 2, 1861 to May 28, 1880. I checked both these indexes but didn'tfind an entry for a death for either William or Helen. I checked our other index cards, just on the off chance that I mightfind something, but no luck there. I also checked the Ontario CemeteryFinding Aid on-line (which you may have already done yourself) butdidn't find them listed in this. If you can manage somehow to narrow down the date of death (month andday as well as the year), it still may be worth checking the newspaperaround the time of death in case one or the other may have been missedwhen the indexing was done. Your local library would be able to borrowthe microfilm of the London Free Press newspaper through interlibraryloan. This would save you coming to London to search. Good luck with your search. London Room staff Info London Public - Libraryinfo[at]lpl.london.on.ca "
Moderator Comment: e-mail edited, to avoid spamming and other abuses.
Please replace [-- at --] with @
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That's a pity Ken.
Hopefully, you still have a window of opportunity with possible obituaries. What is the source of the death dates you have? I see on their children's marriage certs that no note is made as to parents being alive or deceased.
Monica
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The only source that I have for death dates of William and Helen Douglas, is the 1903 Lambton County Commemorative Biographical Record book .. which I gave a link for .. a few replies ago.
Ancestry has Ontario death records, online ... but they only go back to 1869 (so that does not help.
The only other records, that I can think of ... would be Presbyterian Church records for London Township.. here in Ontario.. which I am trying to follow up on. But that likely would only give me a day / month & year burial date .. and possibly the cemetery .. but not parents names .. I'm sure.
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You could try the Canada GenWeb Cemetery Project for their burials. www.cemetery.canadagenweb.org
BlancheD
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Hello guys I am from Australia & believe some of us are related! My gg grandparents were William Douglas (b. 1816 in Northumberland) & Isabella Douglas (b, 1824 at Farr in Sutherland). Isabellas parents were Helen Douglas (died 1864) & John Douglas (d.1865) from Connafearn by the Hills of Clibrig near Farr in Sutherlandshire. . I know they were shepherds & had Roxburghshire/Northumbrian ancestry. I would however love to know when they made this big move & why?? Did they have existing family in Sutherland? How did the Highland Clearances really affect them?? I have been doing genealogy for many years but not learnt much about these people. If anyone can assist me in knowing more I would appreciate it very much. thanks.. cheers, Rob
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Hello all, also have noticed the middle name 'Hamilton' has been used in my family in my grandmother's generation. Does anyone know how the Hamiltons fit into my Douglas ancestry?I have always wondered about this but no-one in my immediate family knows anything about it! Any help much appreciated. Thanks Rob
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I know they were shepherds & had Roxburghshire/Northumbrian ancestry. I would however love to know when they made this big move & why?? Did they have existing family in Sutherland? How did the Highland Clearances really affect them??
The thing about the Clearances is that they were mainly driven by the landowners' desire to get more income from their land. Sheep were seen as more profitable than people, so the people had to go to make room for the sheep.
In that context, it's not really surprising that landowners would have imported shepherds from outside their estates - for one thing, there may not have been enough home-grown shepherds, and for another, any home-grown ones might not have wanted to tend flocks in the homes and on the land of their friends, neighbours and relatives, or might have feared alienation from those relatives, friends and neighbours who had been dispossessed and evicted.
You need to find out who actually owned the land where your Douglases lived. Did the same landowner also have estates in Roxburgh or Northumberland? This might be the explanation why they moved so far. If you can find the records of whichever estate it was, it's not impossible that there just might be some record of them, though it's more likely that they were employed by a tacksman or sheep farmer who rented land from the estate, rather than directly by the landowner.
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Hello all, my gg-grandfather William Douglas was living at Farr Sutherlandshire in 1841 and appears in the 1841 Census aged 20 years. He later married an Isabella Douglas (b. 1824 at Farr) at Rean in 1846. They came to Australia in 1848 on board the 'Aurora". I know his father was also a William Douglas, apparently a schoolteacher at some stage. I believe that William Douglas senior's wife died young. I also am wondering whether he is the same William Douglas who married Ellen Patterson. This William Douglas (born in 1798 in Yetholm Roxburghshire) was the son of Oliver Young and Thomas Douglas. It also appears Thomas's brother John was the father of young William's bride Isabella! Family talk was always about them being cousins too. Vague references to William Douglas's migration to Canada are also evident in my family. Assuming William senior did marry Ellen, does anyone know to whom he married first? Thanks Rob
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just going over all these messages (Jan 2018) .. haven't looked at all this in a while .. interesting. One unanswered question here in Ontario. William Douglas died near London Ontario 1859 .. his wife Helen (not sure on spelling) 1862. But I can not find where buried .. all I have is a story on William .. that he was a cattle butcher .. and on a winter day (and yes the winters in southern Ontario, can be bad) he went looking in the area (likely London Township, Middlesex County Ont) for a cow to buy (and butcher at home) but no luck ... and coming home he got somewhat lost .. pulled the horse and buggy or wagon into a some what sheltered area and was found frozen to death in the morning. My uncle Delmar Douglas told me this.
Most of his family ended up in Strathroy (Middlesex County Ontario) and Brooke township Lambton County Ontario Canada
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There were no great flocks of blackfaces or cheviot sheep in the Highland's before the "Clearances!" The hill land was divided into "Shielings!" & the people migrated there to the huts for the summer months with the cattle, making cheese & butter & sending it back to the farm, the rents in many districts were paid in cattle, the basis of the Highland economy. Things for the Highland sheep industry went down the tubes when Bell & Co on the Clyde developed the refrigerated ship, (1870's) & whereas only wool was formerly imported from Oz & NZ. cheap frozen lamb & beef could be shipped to Britain also. Many Highland estates switched from sheep production to deer-stalking & shooting lodges proliferated, shepherds switching jobs or emigrating. Ironically much of this frozen meat was produced by descendants of people cleared to make way for sheep in Scotland in the first place.
Skoosh.