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Wales (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Wales => Denbighshire => Topic started by: Adnepos_Iacobi on Saturday 04 September 10 16:07 BST (UK)
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I am tracing cousins of mine, the Kyrkes/Kirkes/Kirks, who were in Chapel-en-Le-Frith, Derbyshire in the 16/17/18th century.
Richard KIRK was born at Chapel-en-le-Frith in about 1747, married Ellen VENABLES at Prestbury, Cheshire in 1771 and at some time moved to the Wrexham area. They had a family of twelve children, born between 1775 and 1792, five boys: Henry (1775, no issue), Thomas (1777, no issue), James (1778), George (1780) and Richard (1792). Incidentally, daughter Elizabeth married a Panton, Margaret married a John DICKENSON, Ellen married a Palin, Sarah married a Griffiths and Frances married Thomas PENSON the bridge builder.
Following the Kirk line, I then have a gap, picking up with Richard Venables KYRKE who must be a descendant of the above Richard and Ellen, probably a grandson; from census returns born at Gwersyllt about 1821. He married Fanny WARBRICK at Woodchurch, Wirral in 1849. They had at least four children. He died at Hawarden 1 April 1899 and was buried at (Old) Hope Cemetery.
The Kyrke family were prospering (landowners based at Martinside) at the time they moved from Derbyshire to the Wrexham area and by the early 19th century were in the coalmining business there. I have no evidence that they were in this business before they moved although I cannot completely exclude the possibility because coal was mined in the upper Goyt Valley about five miles from their Derbyshire home. They didn't appear to be short of capital because they rented out their properties in Chapel-en-le-Frith for a generation after they moved before selling up.
So please, any ideas why the family would move and how to test your idea?
Also, if anybody happens to know the fate of any of the twelve children of Richard and Fanny, in particular, which one was the father of Richard Venables KYRKE, you would save me the long trip from the Cambridge area for the task of checking the several possible christening registers.
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Hi
I've come across lots of Kyrkes and alternatives in the parish of Minera near Wrexham. :)
Not sure if you have these links.
The site at the link below is a useful tool and includes a key to the PR transcription booklets produed by Clwyd FHS.
http://www.namesfromclwyd.org.uk/
The Denbighshire Record Office has a personal names index which includes documents for Richard Venables and others. These aren't available online.
http://www.denbighshire.gov.uk/en-gb/DNAP-78GL8L
Also Welsh wills online
http://cat.llgc.org.uk/cgi-bin/gw/chameleon?skin=profeb&lng=en
maidmarion :)
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"Eminent Men of Denbighshire" by H. Ellis Hughes
Richard Kirk, from Chapel-en-le-Frith, reopened the Minera leadmines in 1775, and opened pits in Brynmally and at Southsea.
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Links to information on Minera. There used to be a link to the PRs online but unfortunately that site is no longer available.
http://www.minerahistory.com/
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Many thanks for the links, maidmarion. You have pointed me to some very helpful material.
Lead and limestone mining at Minera is interesting because the these activities were going on a short distance southeast of Chapel-en-le-Frith, close to the home of Richard KIRK. So he may have moved to Minera to reopen lead mines.
I'll take a look at the book that you quote.
The christening of the Richard Venables KYRKE on http://www.namesfromclwyd.org.uk/ is in the 1836-1851 period so is probably that of the son of the Richard Venables KYRKE who interests me.
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Hi
I found these in Minera Chapelry Baptisms up to 1820.
Sep 15 1816, born 9.
Phoebe Hughes d/o William (farmer) and Catherine mn Keyrke, Nantyffrith
Jun 17 1818, Born 8 Mar
Franses Kyrke d/o James and Elizabeth mn Walker, Nantyffrith Lodge
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Thanks again maidmarion.
I'm not surprised that the Kyrkes in Wales had children christened at a Wesleyan Chapel. Back in Derbyshire their ancestors had attended the Congegational Chapel (at Chinley) even though they were actively involved in parish activities; the Wesleyans hadn't 'got going' at the time the Kyrkes moved away from Derbyshire. Minera Chapel was established in 1804 so earlier Kyrke christenings in Wales would have taken place elsewhere. Richard was lead mining [at Minera] in 1775 (maidmarion's quote from a book by J Ellis Hughes) so the link to Minera Chapel 45 years later confirms the mining link.
I didn't know of Catherine KEYRKE who is the mother in the first christening at Minera Chapel mentioned by maidmarion. She isn't listed in Richard KIRK's (1747-1839) Bible, which seems to list all his children but since she had given birth in 1816, she is more likely to be a grand-daughter. With a name like Keyrke, living in Nantyffrith, the two must be related!
From the above mentioned family bible, James KYRKE son of Richard was born 8 Oct 1778. The second christening at Minera mentioned by maidmarion could feature this James as a father aged 50 years but could easily be a grandson. The death of a James KYRKE was registered at Wrexham Q4 1857; the only information in the Administration, granted 21 November 1857 (hey, ordering documents from The National Library of Wales is quick and easy!), is that James was the brother of Richard Venables KYRKE (1821-1899). So if I find the father of James KYRKE (died 1857), I find the father of Richard Venables KYRKE, which would then link the 18th century with the 19th century Kyrkes in Wales.
According to website information that maidmarion pointed me to, a James KYRKE bought Nantyffrith Hall from a tea trader named Peek in 1865. In the absence of any indication in the Administration that James (d 1857) had a wife and children, it's likely that this James would be a nephew; not a son of James (d 1857) and no evidence of him being a son of Richard Venebales KYRKE.
But I'm still looking for some clue for why a family that was prospering in Derbyshire moved to Wales. Any ideas?
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Minera Chapelry wasn't a non conformist chapel, it was church of Wales so anglican.
http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/wal/DEN/Minera/index.html
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“Brymbo and it`s Neighbourhood “ by Graham Rogers.
In 1769 a lease of The Lodge Estate granted to John Phillips and William Price and by arrangement John Wilkinson dug for iron and Richard Kirk for coal.
Richard Kirks mines at Brynmally opened in 1770
Ffrwd Canal.
Richard Kirk was closely connected with this branch of Ellesmere canal system.
Born at Martin-side, Chapel en Frith c 1747. He came to this area c 1775 .
In 1820 together with John Burton he leased the Minera `City` Lands for 21 years and worked the lead ore. He died in 1839.
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Thanks wilcoxon, that's useful information.
On balance it seems that Richard Kirk moved to the area 1769/70, maybe 1771 (his father died in September 1771 and he married in East Cheshire in October 1771).
The opportunities in mining (coal and lead) were probably what attracted him.
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In the same Brymbo book there is this.
c 1770. Brynmally Coilliery started by Messrs James & Venables.
1812 Southsea Colliery then held by Richard Kyrke.
It seems likely that Kyrke and Venables had a common interest ???
Also from the site maidmarion mentioned.
Dickenson, James Kyrke, Highfield, Wrexham, Denbigh, Gent
James Kyrke Dickenson : bond, 1847.
http://hdl.handle.net/10107/29655
Kyrke, James, Peudwll, Wrexham, Denbigh, Gent
James Kyrke : bond, 1857. This names Richard Venables Kyrke. :)
It could be Pendwll, which is very close to where Brynmally colliery was.
http://hdl.handle.net/10107/794965
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Thanks for the very useful finding that Richard Kirk's in-laws (the Venables) were also involved in the mining around Wrexham. That pretty much ties up the explanation for Richard's move from Derbyshire to Denbighshire.
James Kyrke DICKENSON was a grandson of the above Richard KIRK (1747-1839), son of Margaret who married John DICKENSON. Is there a reason I should take a look at his 1857 bond?
I ordered the other 1857 bond over the weekend from the National Library of Wales -a very efficient service I must say! Richard Venables KYRKE (brother and executor to the will of James KYRKE, died 1857), William DULEY and John VAUGHAN all three of Wrexham bonded between them 200GBP on the behest of the Rt Reverend Thomas Fowler, Lord Bishop of St Asaph, over details of the preparation of the inventory of goods etc of the late James KYRKE of Pendwll. Peudwll is a typo.
Many thanks to maidmarion and wilcoxon for the help. My question about the reason for the move to the Wrexham area is answered as best I can expect.
I'll take a look at the two books “Brymbo and it`s Neighbourhood “ by Graham Rogers and "Eminent Men of Denbighshire" by H. Ellis Hughes.
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Is there a reason I should take a look at his 1857 bond?
You can see the original document just by clicking the link.
You might to join this , there are many entries in the BMD and obits for Kyrke, all for members of this family from the 1830s onwards.
http://www.lancashire.gov.uk/onrl/
Look at FAQ`s for how to join.
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Just a few bits and bobs I picked up in some old local history magazines.
They were published by the Broughton History Group.
Richard Kyrke of Martinside came to the area c 1775 and used coal for smelting Minera lead.
Brynmally colliery was started in 1770 by Charles Roe of Macclesfield and James Venables from whom the grandson of Richard Kyrk adopted the name Richard Venables Kyrke.
It was sold to Richard Kyrk by Roe and Venables who worked it till 1815.
His son George inhertited in on his death in 1839, but the family appeared to come into financial problems and in 1842 it was mortaged by George, and on 13 January 1849 James Kyrke became bankrupt, members of the family moved to Gwersyllt Hill. This is possibly the reason that Thomas Clayton had the chance to buy the estate.
Poolmouth
1839 tithe map of Broughton shows a large pool in the valley below Brynmally.
Ffrwd canal was built by Telford and passed through this area and on 30 November 1796 at a meeting of the canal proprieters it was stated that - Ordered that Mr Richard Kyrke do lift with his engine the water to the level of the Frood branch. It seems then that the reservoir Telford built was used top up the canal. By about 1813 it was reported that the canal was dry, and it was abandoned.
(Parts of the canal can still be seen and one length is about 25 yards from the back of my house, the stones used for building it are still there)
The higher lake was enlarged by Thomas Telford to provide water for the Frwdd canal, it was bought in 1843 for £140 by Richard Venables Kyrke.
On the banks was a `fishing cottage` called Pendwllyn, it was built by Richard Venables Kyrke the son of RK who came to the area c 1775. Actually it was quite a large place and in a lovely area.
Pendwllyn was also known as the Boathouses, and was later converted into 8 cottages still known with that name.
Brynmally Hall.
The hall was designed by architect Thomas Penley Penson for Richard Kirk whose daughter Frances he married.
Thomas Clayton bought the Brynmally estate from the assignees of Messrs James and George Kyrke, sons of Richard Kyrke in 1849. From then till his death he administered an extensive estate in Broughton, part of the estate was Pendwllyn Farm.
Pigotts Directory 1832.
Nobility and Gentry.
Kyrke George Esq. Brynmally.
Kyrke James Esq. Glascoed.
Kyrke Richard Esq. Summerhill.
I do have another book with more snippets, and will take a look at that later.
Attchached is a drawing of Brynmally Hall dated 1850
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A little more from another source.
1765
Charles Roe came to Wales from Macclesfield to mine copper at Anglesey.
1770
James Venables was charged in the rate books for Cae Hico pit at Broughton
1771.
Brynmally colliery was acquired by Roe and Venables. Charles Roe had lived in a property called Summerhill in Macclesfield and it’s thought that this gave the name to the area known as Summerhill in Gwersyllt.
1775
Richard Kyrk came to the area.
1784
James Venables died in October aged 84.
1795
Brynmally Estate acquired by Richard Kyrk and Brynmally Hall was built by Thomas Penson his son in law.
1812
Richard Kyrk exchanged a deed with Sir Watkin Williams Wynn exchanging land at Ruabon for land in Broughton which included a tenement called Pendwll.
1828
James Kyrke excavated part of the Offa`s Dyke in Frith to make a road.. Many finds were made which proved local knowledge of the Roman occupation in the area.
1839
Richard Kirk died aged 91 on 13th Seot at Gwresyllt Hill, the name of his house.
Lens named Brynmally and Brynmally colliery were left to his son George. He also had a son Richard and a grandson who adopted the name Venables Kyrk .
Richard Venables Kyrke jnr lived at Pendwllyn , one of his daighters married John Dickenson a Wrexham surgeon, another daughter was the wife of Thomas Penson who designed many buildings in Wrexham.
1842
George Kyrke was in financial difficulty and his holdings were mortgaged.
1844
Richard Venables Kyrke still lived at Pendwllyn.
1849
Brynmally Colliery and estate sold to Thomas Clayton by the Kyrke brothers James and George.
1849
James Kyrke became bankrupt on the 13th January
1883
Nant Y Ffrith house was enlarged by Richard Venables Kyrke.
Photo attached.
I’ve looked till 1940 and there’s no more mentions of Kyrke - I hope this has been of some use to you.
From your first post, do you mean Richard and Ellen ?
Also, if anybody happens to know the fate of any of the twelve children of Richard and Fanny, in particular, which one was the father of Richard Venables KYRKE, you would save me the long trip from the Cambridge area for the task of checking the several possible christening registers.
Richard KIRK was born at Chapel-en-le-Frith in about 1747, married Ellen VENABLES at Prestbury, Cheshire in 1771 and at some time moved to the Wrexham area. They had a family of twelve children, born between 1775 and 1792, five boys: Henry (1775, no issue), Thomas (1777, no issue), James (1778), George (1780) and Richard (1792
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wilcoxon, thank you very much for all that material. I would never have found it! Amplifying your findings, I can add the following:
According to family, George KYRKE (1780-1859) married a Miss ROE, presumably a relation of the Charles ROE who moved from Summerhill, Macclesfield to first Anglesy then I assume to the Wrexham area in that he bought Brynmally Colliery. Summerhill is a common name but I guess Charles ROE actually came from Summerhill, Alderley Edge near Macclesfield; copper was mined on the Edge so a move to Anglesey could be explained if he had lived there.
I'm interested that a contributor to the Broughton History Group knew/knows that Richard Venables KYRKE was the grandson of Richard Kyrk (KIRK, 1747-1839). As previously mentioned, I haven't identifed the parents of Richard Venables KYRKE. Maybe the contributor assumed that with such an unusual name he had to be a descendant of Richard KIRK and his wife Ellen VENABLES but it would be less than a fair assumption to specify him being a grandson because he could equally have been a great grandson. So it's possible the contributor had or has my missing information. Any help here greatly appreciated!
I made a mistake in my first entry on this string of messages, it should have read:
Also, if anybody happens to know the fate of any of the twelve children of Richard and Ellen (Fanny WARBRICK was the wife of Richard Venables KYRKE), in particular, which one was the father of Richard Venables KYRKE, you would save me the long trip from the Cambridge area for the task of checking the several possible christening registers (and even then with no assurance of success). Richard KIRK was born at Chapel-en-le-Frith in about 1747, married Ellen VENABLES at Prestbury, Cheshire in 1771 and at some time moved to the Wrexham area. They had a family of twelve children, born between 1775 and 1792, five boys: Henry (1775, no issue), Thomas (1777, no issue), James (1778), George (1780) and Richard (1792).
Regarding the fate of the Kyrkes in the Wrexham area, I think the connection was severed when Richard Venables KYRKE died at Hawarden in 1899, although his elder son Richrd Henry Venables KYRKE died in the Monmouth area in 1925. Daughter Dora married Joseph DRAKE, of Wexford. I lose track of his daughter Fanny and think she must have died young. And his younger son Arthur Venables KYRKE moved away to Chard, Somerset. I am not aware of descendants of any other line from Richard KIRK (1747-1839) other than those of the above Richard Venable KYRKE..
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Charles ROE was born in Castleton, Derbyshire, not too far from the birthplace of Thomas KIRK (1747-1839). He seems to be a celebrity in the mining world. See
http://www.derbyscc.org.uk/alderley/history_biographies.php#cr
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Family of Margaret Kirk who married John Dickinson (whose daughter Mary married a Palin)
http://www.tribalpages.com/tribe/browse?userid=palinfamily&view=0&pid=995&ver=197
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Thanks for the link to the tribal pages
I have come to the conclusion (see the question in the first posting) that on balance, the parents of Richard Venables KYRKE (1821-1899) were Richard KYRKE (1792-1868) and his wife Harriott Ann JONES. I'll confirm this one way or another, some day!
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The Lancaster Gazette and General Advertiser, for Lancashire, Westmorland, &c. (Lancaster, England), Saturday, July 31, 1813;
Marriage announcment
On Tuesday last George Kyrke Esq of Gwersyllt Hill Wrexham to Harriet daughter of Wm Roe Esq of Liverpool.
It doesnt say where the marriage took place.
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George Kyrke of Gwersyllt Hill Wrexham married Rachel Harriet Roe (daughter of Wm Roe Esq of Liverpool) at St Annes, Richmond, Liverpool on 27 July 1813. It was a posh place in those days.
I'll confirm that William Roe was a son of Charles, the successful mining engineer/entrepreneur and business partner of George Kirke's father Richard.
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Regarding the fate of the Kyrkes in the Wrexham area, I think the connection was severed when Richard Venables KYRKE died at Hawarden in 1899, although his elder son Richrd Henry Venables KYRKE died in the Monmouth area in 1925. Daughter Dora married Joseph DRAKE, of Wexford. I lose track of his daughter Fanny and think she must have died young. And his younger son Arthur Venables KYRKE moved away to Chard, Somerset. I am not aware of descendants of any other line from Richard KIRK (1747-1839) other than those of the above Richard Venable KYRKE..
One Richard Henry Venables KYRKE (b. ca 1848, d. 1925) rent some of the river Vefsna - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vefsna - in Norway for salmon fishing from 1891 until his death in 1925.
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Thanks oasorgard and welcome to RootsChat!
That's an interesting find that I had come across but couldn't understand because it was in Norwegian
Richard Henry Venables KYRKE died at Symonds Yat on the border of England with Wales but south of Gwersyllt
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One A. Venables KYRKE, Chard, England, rent, in participation whit a Norwegian, some of the river Hundåla and Hundålvatnet - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hund%C3%A5lvatnet - in Norway for salmon and trout fishing from 1905.
In 1902 Richard Henry Venables KYRKE also build a small villa at Fallneset nearby the river Vefsna.
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A Venables KYRKE of Chard Somerset would be Colonel Arthur Venables KYRKE (1855-1921). He was the brother of the Richard Venables KYRKE who was also fishing, and building villas.
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The river Hundåla is nearby the farm I am living on, and we own some of the river. But the right to fish salmon and trout is own by the Brodtkorb-family, that earlyer also own the land around the river. Earlyer they also own the land around the lower part of the river Vefsna. And it was from them Arthur and Richard Henry Venables KYRKE rent the salmon and trout fishing.
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Regarding the fate of the Kyrkes in the Wrexham area, I think the connection was severed when Richard Venables KYRKE died at Hawarden in 1899, although his elder son Richrd Henry Venables KYRKE died in the Monmouth area in 1925. Daughter Dora married Joseph DRAKE, of Wexford. I lose track of his daughter Fanny and think she must have died young. And his younger son Arthur Venables KYRKE moved away to Chard, Somerset. I am not aware of descendants of any other line from Richard KIRK (1747-1839) other than those of the above Richard Venable KYRKE..
One Richard Henry Venables KYRKE (b. ca 1848, d. 1925) rent some of the river Vefsna - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vefsna - in Norway for salmon fishing from 1891 until his death in 1925.
KYRKE's family rent some of the river Vefsna for salmon fishing until 1934.
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I spotted these in the Dissenters Graveyard MI`s. It`s on Rhosddu Road, Wrexham.
All on same stone. Spelling variations are as they are written in book.
George Lowe Venables of Broughton in Bromfield died October 4 1776 aged 43
Mary Kirk inf d/o Richard and Ellen Kirk of Broughton died October 8 1782
Ellen Kyrke nee Venables died April 8 1827 aged 84 w/o Richard Kirk
Richard Kyrke of Gwersyllt Hill died April 13 1839 aged 92.
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Thanks again, wilcoxon
The information from this monumental inscription is consistent with other sources such as the family bible (for death of infant Mary) and inscription under the south window at Holy Trinity Gwersyllt (for years of death and ages of Richard and Ellen).
George Lowe VENABLES was an elder brother of Ellen VENABLES.
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Interesting about the Church, I can see it from my house, about 3 minutes walk away :)
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I spotted these in the Dissenters Graveyard MI`s. It`s on Rhosddu Road, Wrexham.
All on same stone. Spelling variations are as they are written in book.
Transcription of the headstone inscription is likely to be accurate.
Richard seems to have consistently used KIRK but both his ancestors and his descendants seem to have preferred KYRKE. The inscription for daughter Mary was probably supervised by him but he wouldn't have had a say in the spelling of his surname on the headstone (the most senior member of the family was then son James KYRKE, solicitor and he probably decided). As for wife Ellen, my guess is that the inscription for her on the headstone waited until her husband died...
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A Venables KYRKE of Chard Somerset would be Colonel Arthur Venables KYRKE (1855-1921). He was the brother of the Richard Venables KYRKE who was also fishing, and building villas.
Do you have information about marriage and children? And what was his occupation in UK?
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Arthur Venables KYRKE married Annie Upham DOMMETT, registered Q2 1880 at Axminster, Devon, England. The children: Henry Vernon Venables (1881-1933, soldier), Gerald Venables (1882-1932, international rugby player), Muriel Venables (1884-1887), Dora Violet Vernon (1887-), Harold Venables (1890-1956) and Hylda Marjorie Venables (1891-1931).
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Do you have date for birth and ded for his wife Annie Upham DOMMETT?
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I can`t find an announcment of a birth, but here are some more marriages for the Dommett family.
Birth Mar qtr 1851 Annie Upham Dommett . Chard.
Wrexham Advertiser June 12 1880.
Marriage. Kyrke-Dommett,
June 5th at the parish Church, Seaton, Devon, Arthur Venables younger son of Richard Venables Kyrke Esq. of Nantyffrith in the county of Flint to Annie Upham younger daughter of the late William Dommett Esq of Chard Somerset. No cards.
The Pall Mall Gazette (London, England), Monday, February 19, 1866
Marriage. 8th int.
At St Mary`s Chard, Somerset Mr William H eldest son of Mr W D Whitehead Moorfield, Kersal, Manchester to Julia E eldest daughter of Mr W Dommett solicitor Chard.
Trewman's Exeter Flying Post or Plymouth and Cornish
Wednesday, June 27, 1866;
Marriage.
June 21 at Kirsall, Manchester .
Charles William Dommett esq, solicitor, only son of William Dommett Esq, solicitor Chard to Mary Frances eldest daughter of W D Whitehead Esq, Kersall, Manchester.
The Essex Standard, and General Advertiser for the Eastern Counties
Friday, September 07, 1866; Issue 1864.
Marriage
August 30th at Chard Church , Somerset Henry Coles Soper Esq, eldest son of Henry Soper Esq. of Little Waltham Lodge in this county to Clara Claxton second daughter of William Dommett Esq of Chard.
Another paper has an address for Henry Soper, 31 Spital Sq.London.
The Bristol Mercury and Daily Post Saturday, December 7, 1878
Death.
November 30th at Chard, William Dommett solicitor aged 64.
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Do you have date for birth and death for his wife Annie Upham DOMMETT?
Arthur Venables KYRKE and his wife Annie Upham are buried at Chard St Mary; the inscription has both of them dying 28 November 1921. The dates of their deaths is confirmed in the calendars of probate.
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Where did Arthur Venables KYRKE and Annie Upham DOMMETT live in Chard, do the house still exist?
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1881
RG11; Piece: 2386; Folio: 9; Page: 13;
4 Snowdon Cottage, High St Chard.
1891
RG12; Piece: 1893; Folio 83; Page 1
They are still at Snowdon Road,
1901
RG13; Piece: 2277; Folio: 23; Page: 32
Arthur is not at home but the Annie is at Staplegrove, Taunton , Somerest.
It could be The Elm, but I`m not sure.
Annie aged 50 and Evelyn Venables Kyrke 21 on the incoming
passenger lists
Port of departure New York, United States
Arrival Date: 4 Jun 1905
Port of Arrival: Liverpool, England
Ship Name: Etruria
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I did a search in Google Maps and found Snowdon Cottage Lane, Chard, United Kingdom - http://maps.google.no/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=no&geocode=&q=Snowdon+Cottage+Lane,+Chard,+United+Kingdom&aq=0&sll=50.873646,-2.971244&sspn=0.000731,0.001714&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=Snowdon+Cottage+Ln,+Chard+TA20,+Storbritannia&ll=50.873971,-2.971094&spn=0.000731,0.001714&t=h&z=19
Is that the place?
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The address is/was Snowden Cottage, High Street, Chard.
I guess The house was and probably is still at the junction of Snowden Cottage Lane and High Street. I can ask my in-laws; they live in Chard.
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Kyrke
http://www.ebooksread.com/authors-eng/edward-walford/the-county-families-of-the-united-kingdom-or-royal-manual-of-the-titled-and-un-fla/page-336-the-county-families-of-the-united-kingdom-or-royal-manual-of-the-titled-and-un-fla.shtml
This is interesting. Marjorie V Kyrke is 9 in the 1901 census,
where she is at home with her mother Annie..
I can`t find Evelyn in a census .
I wonder what led to the marriage being dissolved
and what was the relationship between the two Kyrke girls.
Hilda Marjorie V Kyrke Birth reg mar qtr 1892 Chard
Evelyn Annie V Kyrke Birth reg Dec 1883 Christchurch
Marriages Jun 1906
Spottiswoode John Roderich C H
Venables Kyrke , Evelyn A
Marriages Sep 1915 St Martin
Spottiswoode John R C H
Kyrke , Hylda V
SPOTTISWOODE, John Roderick Chares HERBERT -, Esq., of Spottis- wode, Berwickshire.
Eldest son of Capt. Charles Herbert, who d. 1882, by his 2nd wife Helen, who d. 1882, only child of the late Lieut.-Col. Andrew Spottiswoode ; b. 1882; s. his great-aunt. Lady John ilontagu-Douglas-Scott- Spottiswoode, 1900, and then assumed the additional surname of Spottiswoode ;
m. 1st 1906 (marriage dissolved 1915) Evelyn Anne, only child of Richard
Henry Venables Kyrke, Esq., of Nantyffrith, Flint- shire ;
2ndly 1915 Hylda Marjorie, youngest dau. of Col. Arthur Venables Kyrke, of Staplegrove Elm, Somerset, and has a son, ■* John Terence Kennedy, b.
1917. Mr. Herbert-Spottiswoode, who was educated at Eton, is temp. Lieut. R. Naval Vol. Reserve. — Spottiswoode, Gordon, Berwickshire : R. Aero Club, w.
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This is interesting. Marjorie V Kyrke is 9 in the 1901 census, where she is at home with her mother Annie.
I can`t find Evelyn in a census .
I wonder what led to the marriage being dissolved and what was the relationship between the two Kyrke girls.
Hilda Marjorie V Kyrke Birth reg mar qtr 1892 Chard
Evelyn Annie V Kyrke Birth reg Dec 1883 Christchurch
Marriages Jun 1906
Spottiswoode John Roderich C H
Venables Kyrke , Evelyn A
Marriages Sep 1915 St Martin
Spottiswoode John R C H
Kyrke , Hylda V
The two Kyrke brides were first cousins. The fathers were the two salmon fishermen, Richard Henry Venables KYRKE (abt 1850-1925) and Arthur Venables KYRKE (1855-1921).
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I can`t find Evelyn in a census .
At the time of the 1891 census Evelyn was lodging in Bournemouth (parents not there). Returned with mother, from Sydney Australia on the Liguria, arriving at Liverpool, in June 1895, presumably having visited her mother's relations in Brisbane. Returned with mother from New York on the Etruria, arriving Liverpool, 4 June 1905.
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I did a search in Google Maps and found Snowdon Cottage Lane, Chard, United Kingdom - Is that the place?
It's a grade II listed building CHARD and at http://www.britishlistedbuildings.co.uk/en-374187-snowdon-cottage-chard-town you can find the following:
ST3108 SNOWDON COTTAGE LANE
756-1/3/155 (East side)
29/07/76 Snowdon Cottage
GV II
House. Probably C18. Garden front is rough ashlar, the rest is
rendered over limestone rubble, some exposed to rear. Hipped
L-shaped thatched roof with independent hipped pantile infill
to complete a square plan. 2-storeys, symmetrical 3-window
range to garden front; 2 late-C19 two-storey canted bays with
horned 2/2-pane sashes, and an early C19 four/eight-pane sash
to first-floor centre; c1960 French window to right of ground
floor, and glazed sun-room across entrance. Thatched roof,
with wide boarded eaves, extends over bays. Rear has C20
windows and door. INTERIOR not inspected.
The above website also provides an exact location, which shows the cottage to be where oasorgard
suggested, rather tah at the corner of High Street and Snowdon Cottage Lane. No photograph!
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Hi Kyrke searchers
I'm trying to sort out the tree for Rev Richard Kyrke (born c1820 - most censuses give birth at Wrexham; the 1871 census gives it as Bryn Mally nr Wacham [which I interpret as Wrexham]). He died 1897 in Hampstead, and most of his life was spent in England.
The Oxford Alumni record gives him as only son of George, of Wrexham. He has a sister Harriet (1818-1886, married 1848 at St Asaph to Rev Thomas Brown). Any other sisters anyone knows of?
Is this Richard the son of George (1781- 1859) who was record in the 1851 census staying with James Kyrke, and both were born in Wrexham - that is how I decipher the census record of their birthplace? Or is there some other George about the place that I'm looking for? Also, I wasn't clear on the posts whether James and George are brothers.
Note that the Richard I am looking at is a different one from Richard Venables Kyrke. In my line of Kyrke's, none has been given the second name of Venables.
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Did this Rev Richard Kyrke marry Priscilla Catherine Billinge , fourth daughter of the late Mr Henry Billinge.
Marriage took place on 1st May 1851 at Trinity Church Liverpool.
The newspaper has no mention of his father.
A death report .
March 19th 1897, Rev Richard Kyrke rector of ?? Brocklebey Lincolshire
http://www.broughton-history.co.uk/page29.html
`Inheritance`, quite a bit on the Kyrke family in here that may help.
Also in here.
http://chris-myers.co.uk/broughton-community.html
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Welcome to RootsChat, Ivan
Thank you for the information on the father of Rev Richard Kyrke. That's another piece in place, I think; the only George who fits the bill is George KYRKE b 12 Nov 1780, chr 12 Dec 1780, died Q2 1859. He married Rachel Harriott ROE, granddaughter, I think, of the famous entrepreneur Charles ROE (1715-1781) 27 July 1815 at St Anne's, Everton, Liverpool.
The above George was a brother of James KYRKE (1778-1857), the two of them at Glascoed at the time of the 1851 census. Both of them were born in the Wrexham area, not sure where exactly.
I agree, there was a Richard KYRKE and a Richard Venables KYRKE born about the same time (1820) in the same area, likely to have been cousins. I suspect Richard Venables KYRKE (abt 1821-1899) was the son of Richard Venables KYRKE (1792-1868); the latter being a younger brother of George and James (a total of 12 siblings in all -see my first posting in this thread).
Wilcoxon - You are right, Rev Richard KYRKE (abt 1820-1897) did marry Priscilla Catherine BILLINGE at Holy Trinity, Liverpool, 1 May 1851.
I have accumulated quite a lot of information on the ancestry of the brothers James George and Richard Venables KYRKE.
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I spotted these in the Dissenters Graveyard MI`s. It`s on Rhosddu Road, Wrexham.
All on same stone. Spelling variations are as they are written in book.
George Lowe Venables of Broughton in Bromfield died October 4 1776 aged 43
Mary Kirk inf d/o Richard and Ellen Kirk of Broughton died October 8 1782
Ellen Kyrke nee Venables died April 8 1827 aged 84 w/o Richard Kirk
Richard Kyrke of Gwersyllt Hill died April 13 1839 aged 92.
Hi Wilcoxon, some more help if you are able, please...
The GRO index has Richard KIRK's death registered in the September quarter of 1839 and Chris Myers, from a book by John Bagshaw called Broughton Then and Now has Richard's death as September 13. Chris has kindly offered to take a look at the headstone.
Do you have any information from the transcription that might help him find the headstone in the graveyard?
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It`s not a large graveyard, and the stones are either laid flat about 3 or 4 deep and side by side or propped up around the wall, some at the top end have fallen on to the inscribed side face down.
I would take a brush and a scraper as many of the old ones are covered by moss, and there are leaves lying on others.
The book only has Grave reference numbers and page numbers, I don`t know if they are entered in sequence as to where they stood.
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I spotted these in the Dissenters Graveyard MI`s. It`s on Rhosddu Road, Wrexham.
All on same stone. Spelling variations are as they are written in book.
George Lowe Venables of Broughton in Bromfield died October 4 1776 aged 43
Mary Kirk inf d/o Richard and Ellen Kirk of Broughton died October 8 1782
Ellen Kyrke nee Venables died April 8 1827 aged 84 w/o Richard Kirk
Richard Kyrke of Gwersyllt Hill died April 13 1839 aged 92.
Is it possible to get a picture of this stone?
Susan
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A very nice chap spent an hour looking at the stones in the Cemetery on Easter Monday. A lot were so badly weathered they could no longer be read. He didn't find this stone, so maybe it's one of those that is illegible.
So in short, no photo.
I am persuaded that Richard died in September and not April (see previous message).
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http://www.chris-myers.co.uk/villages-and-places-around-wrexham.html
It seems it is one of those laid flat
Kirk was the father of five sons and several daughters,only one of whom used the same spelling of his surname.All the others used the spelling Kyrke.The one exception his infant daughter Mary whose early death is recorded on a gravestone,now used as paving,at the Dissenter's Cemetary at Rhosddu
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Can I join the KYRKE party? :)
I've no personal connection but it's a family I've been interested in for some years, along with ironmaster John Wilkinson + coal/iron + railways/canals in and around the general Brymbo district. I'd (slowly!) pieced together something of a Kyrke family tree over the years, but some was guesswork and there were certainly gaps. Then I came across the fascinating info and background here which has helped to fill in a bit more.
Adnepos, in an earlier post you mentioned Richard's son James (d. 1857, brother of George and Richard V) but no knowledge of a marriage. He did marry, but maybe you'd found this since? In case not, his wife was Betty Walker who d. in 1819 at Ffrith Lodge. She was the daughter of John & Betty Walker -- this is noted in her will of the same year, where her father is quoted as "late of Stone Bridge in the Township of Blacon cum Crabhall in the County of Chester Gentleman deceased".
Her will/admon wasn't proved till 1834: it's online at the NLW. A John Venables was one of 3 witnesses noted as "Clerks to Mr Barker, Chester."
I don't know when James and Betty married or where (Chester area?), and it would be interesting to find; but the will also indicates they had no children -- or rather, it seems none living at the time of her death. I've wondered if they were indeed childless or if there are records somewhere pointing to children who may have d. in infancy.
I've assumed after Betty died James remained a widower as enumerated in the 1851C, but there's a gap of some 30 yrs when I guess he could have remarried and lost a second wife, but found no reference to anything so far.
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A few snippets from here and there -- sorry if you already have them.
Had you come across this for Richard Venables Kyrke Jnr?
1835
Richard Venables Kyrke, son of R. V. Kyrke, Esq., of Summer Hill, Wrexham, 13 June 11.
[From the register of Rugby School, available at Google Books
http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=OLYHAAAAQAAJ and see p183]
Palmer's "History of the Older Nonconformity of Wrexham and its Neighbourhood" (1888):
There was one important member of the congregation during the later years of Mr Boult's ministry and the earlier years of Mr Browne's, who because he was not connected with any of the trusts just recited, nor belonged to the inner circle of church membership, has not hitherto been mentioned. This was Mr Richard Kirk, of Bryn Mali, afterwards of Gwersyllt Hill who was concerned, more, perhaps, than any man of his time, in the developement [sic] of the mineral resources of this district. All his children were baptised in the Presbyterian chapel, and thirteen members of his family including his wife (Mrs Ellen Kirk died April 8, 1827, aged 82) lie buried in the Rhosddu Road Graveyard. He settled in the neighbourhood a little before 1775, coming from Chapel-en-le-Frith, in Derbyshire, having recently married Miss Ellen Venables.[35] Mr Richard Kirk was the father of Messrs. James, George, and Richard Kyrke, deceased (note the changed spelling of the name in the second generation!) the grandfather of the present Mr. Richard Venables Kyrke, J.P., of Pen-y-wern, and the great grandfather of Mr. Richard H. Venables Kyrke, of Nant-y-ffrith. Towards the end of his life he left the Presbyterian chapel and joined the communion of the Church of England. He died April 13, 1839, aged 92.
Footnote 35:
Mr. (James) Venables was charged in the rate books for Cae Hick in the township of Broughton-in-Bromfield as early as 1770. He died October, 1786, aged 84, and both he and George Lowe Venables, of Broughton (his son?), who died October 10, 1776, aged 43, are buried in the Dissenters' Graveyard.
See http://www.archive.org/stream/historyofolderno00palm#page/87/mode/1up
From the "Encyclopaedia of Wrexham" by W Alister Williams, 2001:
Queen Square
The name Queen Square was given to a small development located between Queen Street and Birmingham Hall on the site which was later occupied by the Vegetable Market. It was the last surviving market square in the town and specialised in the sale of calico and table linen. It was entered from Queen Street 'through a pair of iron gates and under a covered entrance. We then reach an open square, surrounded on two sides [probably on three sides originally], with a covered gallery supported by pillars. In this gallery were shops, and beneath them, on the ground floor, were also shops'. The Square appears to have been built by Richard Kyrke of Gwersyllt Hill towards the end of the 18th century. It was bought by the Borough Council in 1898 and was eventually redeveloped (along with Birmingham Hall) into the Vegetable Market. Today the site is occupied by the BHS store on Queen Street. This is not to be confused with the present-day Queen's Square.
A very nice chap spent an hour looking at the stones in the Cemetery on Easter Monday. A lot were so badly weathered they could no longer be read. He didn't find this stone, so maybe it's one of those that is illegible.
http://www.chris-myers.co.uk/villages-and-places-around-wrexham.html
It seems it is one of those laid flat
Yes, a few years ago I went to the Dissenters' Burial Ground to search for it, but no luck either. Sorry, if I'd come across the thread earlier I would have mentioned it. To modern eyes the site is really quite small (for a cemetery) but in former times would have been considered large and adequate.
It's thought to have first been laid out in the 1650s. When the council took it over about 50 yrs ago, stones were moved and the site cleared and it was given over to a memorial park. I've no idea where now, but somewhere in the past I came across a photo of the cemetery taken when Lloyd George's wife unveiled the memorial to Morgan Llwyd in 1912, and it was bursting with stones and memorials. Palmer, the Wrexham historian, claimed that 'thousands lie within it'. A number of notables were buried there, including William Wilkinson, brother of John the ironmaster of Bersham and Brymbo.
In 1826 James Kyrke was appointed (presumably by the Chancery Court) the receiver of JW's estate. This was some 18 years into the long-running dispute over JW's will which eventually ate up all his (JW's) fortune. The whole estate had to be sold off.
At the time of the sale the area of the estate was about 900 acres, together with the corn-mill known as Felin Puleston ....
James Kyrke purchased the estate; he was the son of Richard Kirk of Gwersyllt Hill. James lived in the hall and his name is mentioned in the register of Wrexham Parish Church as having served as churchwarden in 1810-11. At a later date, James moved from Brymbo Hall to Glascoed Hall in the Ffrith.
Source: "Lost Houses in and around Wrexham" (section for Brymbo Hall), Raymond Lowe, 2002
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Regarding the fate of the Kyrkes in the Wrexham area, I think the connection was severed when Richard Venables KYRKE died at Hawarden in 1899,
In the list of Subscribers to A N Palmers History of the town of Wrexham. Published 1893
R V Kyrke. Penywern, near Mold.
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Hi interalia
The Wrexham Kyrkes are remote cousins of mine. I'm a descendant of the Chapel-en-le-Frith Kyrkes. The two interesting points from Richard KIRK (1746-1839) relations back in Chapel-en-le-Frith are that they fairly consistently used the spelling Kyrke -he was the exception, his sons returned to traditional spelling- and the family back in Derbyshire were prominent non-conformists, despite playing an important role is parish affairs.
Thank you so much for all that interesting information, particularly the existence of a surviving will of Elizabeth KYRKE (nee Walker). I haven't yet found details of a marriage for her and James KYRKE. There was a christening of a Frances KYRKE (born 8 Mar 1818) 17 June 1818 at Minera Chapel who looks like she would have been a daughter but agree that the couple had no surviving children. I haven't found any evidence for James remarrying. A document in the Denbighshire archive confirms, according to a descendant of brother Richard Venables KYRKE (1792-1868), that James had no children that survived childhood.
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I just found this regarding James Kyrke marrying a "Walker"
Name: James Kirke
Gender: Male
Event Type: Marriage
Marriage Date: 04 Sep 1810
Marriage Place: St Oswald, Chester, Cheshire, England
Principal's Residence: St. Oswald, Chester, Cheshire, England
Spouse's Name: Betty Walker
Spouse's Residence: St. Oswald, Chester, Cheshire, England
Image Number: 511
Digital Folder Number: 4018801
Film Number: 2068355
Collection: England, Cheshire Parish Registers, 1538-2000
But can someone please expalin the connection between Richard Venable Kyrke and the Rev Richard Kyrke that married Priscilla Catherine? I think I missed something there.
Cheers
Susan
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Response to Smarlow57
Rev Richard Kyrke (1820-1897, and married Priscilla Catherine Billinge in 1851) is the only son of George Kyrke, who is one of the brothers of Richard Venables Kyrke (1792-1868). I am not sure whether this Richard Venables Kyrke had the second name of Venables, or whether it was only his son who took it on ... in that branch of the family tree they all seem to be named "Venables".
Rev Richard Kyrke and Priscilla Billinge had the following children:
Helena Baker Kyrke (always called "Nell" in the family) - 1852-1934, married Rev Jeremiah Chaffers-Welsh ar St Asaph 1875, and moved to Australia in 1890
Priscilla Catherine Kyrke (1853-1899 - same name as her mother) - unmarried
Richard Ashton Kyrke (1855-1936)
Charles Richard Kyrke (1857-1911) - I think unmarried
Emily (1861-1945) - unmarried
As far as I can tell, Rev Richard Kyrke had two siblings:
Hannah (1815-1896) married to Rev William Dickson Blundell
Harriet (1818-1886) married 1848 to Rev Thomas Brown
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Jeremiah Chaffers-Welsh
I just couldn`t resist a name like that, and found a few bits about him.
Apoplogies if it`s not really `Kyrke` related but .....
Cheshire Observer (May 08, 1875
On the 29th ult. Rev J Chaffers Welsh curate of Neston married Helena eldest daughter of Rev R Kyrke MA of Stone Braene, Northamptonshire late of Brynmalley Denbighshire.
Liverpool Mercury, November 30, 1876
Person wanted advert for a mistress at a Church of England School , Rev J Chaffers Welsh. 227 Boundary Street Liverpool.
Hampshire Telegraph, July 19, 1890
Rev W Pettit vicar of St Pauls who left Shanklin in consequence of ill health is to resume duties, Rev J Chaffers Welsh curate in charge expects an appointment to a living in New South Wales.
The Leeds Mercury August 14, 1890
Rev J Chaffers Welsh appointed to be chaplain and private secretary to the Bishop of Sydney.
THE MURDERED ENGLISHMAN STOKES .
Cheshire Observer (, November 23, 1895
This is too long to copy, but it about a Mr Stokes who was a missionary , it gives a very good account on the work of J Chaffers Welsh in Neston and the conditions he worked in with Stokes.
It seems Stokes been accused of supplying arms to natives in the Congo , and he was executed by order of Major Lothaire.
It was reported that he had been the victim of `monstrous injustice`
If anyone wants a copy of this then PM me.
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Does anyone know when Richard Venables Kyrke (that was born in 1792) die?
I also have him marrying Harriet Jones in ? and marrying Jane Frances Horseman in 1832.
How many children did he have with each wife?
Many Thanks
Susan
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I can`t him find yet, but The Wrexham Advertiser,(Saturday, June 17, 1871
has this.
Death
On the 6th inst at Hoylake aged 63 Jane Frances relict of the late Richard Venables Kyrke Esq late of Summerhill . Wrexham
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Does anyone know when Richard Venables Kyrke (that was born in 1792) die?
I also have him marrying Harriet Jones in ? and marrying Jane Frances Horseman in 1832.
How many children did he have with each wife?
I can`t him find yet, but The Wrexham Advertiser,(Saturday, June 17, 1871
has this.
Death
On the 6th inst at Hoylake aged 63 Jane Frances relict of the late Richard Venables Kyrke Esq late of Summerhill . Wrexham
I think it's probably this result:
Richard Kyrke, age 76, 1868 Mar qtr, Wirral, Vol 8a, p286
With Harriet Ann Jones so far I've only found Richard Venables Kyrke (b. abt 1822) as a child. Harriet was apparently still living in 1823.
With Jane I think these, though it may not be a complete list:
William Henry, abt 1833 (d. 1922 Mar qtr, Croydon district)
Edmund, abt 1837
Amelia Frances, 1839 Sep qtr
Vernon, abt 1841 in France
Elinor Jane, bapt. 1 Mar 1843, Isle of Man
James Arnold, abt 1845 in France (d. 1931 Mar qtr, Croydon district) - had a large family
Mary Isabella, abt 1847 in France (d. 1933 Mar qtr, Cirencester district)
George Albert, abt 1850 in France (d. 1923 Jun qtr, Hackney district)
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Got him now . ;D
The Wrexham Advertiser, February 15, 1868;
Deaths
On the 6th inst at Hoylake R V Kyrke Esq formerly of Summer- Hill Wrexham aged 75 years .
( I live in Summer Hill :D )
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Response to interalia
Thanks, you've added a bit more to resolving the riddles of the Kyrkes. Incorporating what you have given, and my searches, I get the following:
RICHARD VENABLES KYRKE (Snr) (1792 - 1868)
Married first: Harriet Ann Jones (marriage probably was about 1820, but don't know where)
and only child seems to be RICHARD VENABLES KYRKE (Jnr) (1822-1899), who married
Fanny Warbrick in 1849, and had 3 children:
1)RICHARD HENRY VENABLES KYRKE (1821-1896), who married twice and seems to have
had only one child EVELYN ANNE/ANNIE VENABLES KYRKE (1883-1948), who
married John Spottiswoode.
2)DORA VENABLES KYRKE (1851-1904, who married Joseph Drake and does't seem
to have any children that I can find
3)ARTHUR VENABLES KYRKE (1855-1921), who married Annie Upham Dommett and
worked as a solicitor in Chard with her father, and had 6 children I can find
Married second: Jane Frances Horseman (marriage 1832 at Toxteth Park Liverpool), and there
seem to be 11 children:
1)WILLIAM HENRY KYRKE (1833-1922) .. found him in 1871 census, with mother
Jane in Hoylake, Cheshire, but can't find him elsewhere
2)EDMUND KYRKE (you give birth year of abt 1837 which aligns with the 1861 Census
when he is a sailor, with his father in Wales and mother in Hoose Cheshire. There is
an Edmund Kyrke in 1841 census, aged 6 [ie birth abt 1835], living in Toxteth Park
in household with Amelia Horseman,who I guess would be his mother's sister. Can't
find him elsewhere.
3)AMELIA FRANCES KYRKE (she was one of my waifs and strays - didn't know who she
belonged to, so thanks for giving her to Richard and Jane. Found her in 1861, 71
and 81 census as governess/school teacher, but then she disappears, unless she
is the Amelia/Amy F Richardson in the 1891 and 1901 census, but I can't find
any marriage. There is death of Amelia F Richardson at right age in 1926;
and deaths of Amelia Kirk at right age in 1908 and 1932. So don't know what
might the correct one.
4)ELINOR VENABLES KYRKE (she was buried 10 Apr 1841 in Wrexham or close by - the
Flintshire records office has copy of her burial certificate with other papers. Don't
know when she was born - can't find anything on BMD. I assume she was daughter
of Jane, rather than of Harriet, but no evidence to hand for which one was her
mother.
5)CHARLES EDWARD KYRKE (baptised at Wrexham 13 May 1836. Died Jun qtr 1838
in West Derby)
6)ARNOLD JAMES KYRKE (baptised 2 Mar 1838. Died Mar qtr 1840 in Wrexham district
- presumably at home at Summer Hill)
7)ELINOR JANE KYRKE (baptism 1 Mar 1843 at St George, Douglas, Isle of Man. Then
see her in 1891 census with sister Mary at Great Cosby - no other census
references that I can see. Died Dec qtr 1933 in Stroud, Gloucestershire).
8)JAMES ARNOLD KYRKE (born about 1845 France, married Maria Keen Viney in 1866,
and died Mar qtr 1931 in Croydon. 10 children I have been able to find)
9)MARY ISABELLA KYRKE (born about 1847 France. Then is governess/teacher in each
census from 1861, and died Mar qtr 1933 in Cirencester.)
10)GEORGE ALBERT KYRKE (born about 1850 France and died Jun qtr 1923 in Hackney.
He's in the 1871 and later censuses, but can't find him in 1861 when many of the
rest of family are back in UK.
11)VERNON KYRKE (born about 1851 in France - not 1841. I find him in 61 and 71 census,
but not later. No death in BMD that I can find.
So, Richard Venables Kyrke (Snr) was born and lived around Wrexham till about 1841-1842, then went to Isle of Man for a short period (assuming he was there with wife when Eleanor Venables Kyrke was born); then about 1844 they moved to France (to Avranches, or Granville, in Normandy) - don't know why they did this or what he did in France - and sometime before the 1861 census moved back to England/Wales. A couple of the children don't appear in the censuses till after 1861 so it may be that they remained in France after parents and younger siblings returned to England.
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A few questions now:
a) there's a Frederick Kyrke born in Wrexham district in Jun qtr 1841. Is he another son to Richard and Jane?
b) who's the Fanny Venables Kyrke born in Wrexham District in Mar qtr 1853. Is she a final daughter of Richard and Jane when they moved back from France, if they moved back by then; or is she a daughter for Richard (Jnr) and Fanny, born between Dora and Arthur - the latter option sounds the most logical.
c) who's the Mary A Kyrke born and died Dec qtr 1866 in Clerkenwell, London? Is it the first child of James Arnold and Maria??
d) who's the Margaret Kryke who died Mar qtr 1844 in Bolton District (Manchester)? Is it any relation at all??
e) there's an Ellen Kyrke, born about 1864 in Liverpool, school teacher, unmarried, who appears in the 1901 census visiting her brother Alfred Chresholm in Great Cosby, and he was born in Scotland. Apart from not knowing why she and her brother don't have the same surname, does anyone know if she fits into the family?
In the previous posting I have not covered the families of the brothers of Richard Venables Kyrke (Snr) - of which James had a daughter Frances who is said to have died young; and George had a at least three chilrden, including only one son, Rev Richard Kyrke, who married Priscilla Catherine Billinge; other two brothers died without marrying.
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Oooo, that's all going to take some thinking time ;D
But for now....
a) there's a Frederick Kyrke born in Wrexham district in Jun qtr 1841. Is he another son to Richard and Jane?
I'm fairly sure he must be, but he escapes census. I don't find any of them around in 1851 when maybe the family was in France, and then by 1861 when Frederick would have been about 19/20ish I think he could have gone to Australia, where I've just found this marriage at Ancestry:
Name: Frederick Kyrke
Father's name: Richard Kyrke
Spouse Name: Ellen Sennott
Spouse's Father's Name: John Sennott
Marriage Date: 9 Feb 1873
Marriage Place: Port Augusta
Registration Place: Frome, South Australia
Page Number: 362
Volume Number: 94
The only thing is he clashes slightly with brother Vernon's estimated birth-year, but there is "room for both" if Vernon was born in 1840, though it means Amelia, Vernon and Frederick were born in pretty quick succession.
If you noticed, there was already an Australian mention in the 1871C for eldest brother William who's enumerated as "Farmer in Austraila" [sic] -- maybe that's where he (William) disappeared back to and why we don't see him later. But he reappears in 1911, boarding at South Croydon aged 78, unmarried, b. Denbighshire, and described as "Old age pensioner".
c) who's the Mary A Kyrke born and died Dec qtr 1866 in Clerkenwell, London? Is it the first child of James Arnold and Maria??
Hadn't spotted her, but there seems a good chance she was, as in the 1871C they're living in the Clerkenwell civil parish.
e) there's an Ellen Kyrke, born about 1864 in Liverpool, school teacher, unmarried, who appears in the 1901 census visiting her brother Alfred Chresholm in Great Cosby, and he was born in Scotland. Apart from not knowing why she and her brother don't have the same surname, does anyone know if she fits into the family?
I came across this too and have a theory (sort of!), but need to check my notes to unravel it again - will post again.
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Hi all
Some issues answered,and further clues available. The baptism records for Minera have come on line these last few days. see http://minerahistory.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=recent.
It helps me a lot, because I had been trying to attach the Ellen Blundell that was visiting James Kyrke in the 1951 census to be a daughter of George, but I couldn't make the right connections. At least this list shows that George did actually have a daughter Ellen.
Also the list shows that Richard Venables Kyrke (Snr) and Harriet Ann had a couple of daughters in addition to Richard Venables Jnr.
Ivan
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e) there's an Ellen Kyrke, born about 1864 in Liverpool, school teacher, unmarried, who appears in the 1901 census visiting her brother Alfred Chresholm in Great Cosby, and he was born in Scotland. Apart from not knowing why she and her brother don't have the same surname, does anyone know if she fits into the family?
As you say, the household as shown makes little sense: how can an unmarried Alfred Chresholm (b. Scotland) and an unmarried Ellen Kyrke be siblings? One explanation could be they had different mothers, and maybe that's the simple answer here, but it leaves us with an Ellen Kyrke b. ca 1864 who we've yet to place. Or she's been misenumerated as 'sister' instead of perhaps 'visitor', and they're not related at all, but that still leaves us with an EK unaccounted for.
Or does it? There's no way to prove it, but I just have a feeling this may well be Elinor Jane, dau of Richard2 Venables Kyrke and Jane; but in the process of being transcribed by the enumerator into the schedules her details have been mangled.
Her age is wrong, 37 instead of 57, but we often see 5s misread/substituted for 3s (and v/v) when transcribed, and it would have been no different back then. Ellen instead of Elinor: well, shortened or pet names often crop up in census as we know. Birthplace is Liverpool instead of Isle of Man, but again we often see wide variations through census, often clearly in error or in haste -- it happens in transcriptions today and was probably just as likely then too. It certainly stretches imagination that so many errors could attach to one person, but it's far from being the the only instance I've come across where it's happened. On the plus side, she has the right occupation and is in the right place.
In 1891 Elinor is with her sister Mary on Blundellsands Road, Great Crosby. In 1901 Mary is still there, though she's in a part called Blundellsands Road East. "Ellen" and Alfred Chresholm are on Blundellsands Road West, so apparently the same road but a distance apart.
I feel there's a reasonable chance Elinor and Mary were still living together, but either Elinor was visiting Alfred Chresholm on census night, or for some reason there was an even bigger c***-up when filling in the schedules and her details may have been partially combined or swapped with another individual so she's ended up in the wrong household altogether. Who knows -- maybe all the forms got dropped in the middle of the enumerator transcribing them, they weren't put back in the right order, he was up against the clock, had lost his place, and got comletely mixed up? OK, maybe that's pushing imagination much too far! -- but transcribers/enumerators would have been no more perfect or infallible than we are, and "stuff happens".
We should be sceptical, but until we can prove otherwise I feel "Ellen" might be Elinor. It's a pity the two sisters aren't actually seen together in 1911, but I think they probably were still living together. Elinor's on her own at Stroud (private governess retired), and Mary's in the same place (retired governess) but visiting another household: that of Fanny Sheldon, unmarried, age 51 or 57, b. Hoylake.
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1)RICHARD HENRY VENABLES KYRKE (1821-1896), who married twice and seems to have
had only one child EVELYN ANNE/ANNIE VENABLES KYRKE (1883-1948), who
married John Spottiswoode.
John Spottiswoode (originally John Herbert) evidently had quite a colourful life, according to this thread:
http://www.crossandcockade.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=359&PID=1158
Also in his marriages, as the one to Evelyn was dissolved and he promptly remarried to her cousin Hilda Marjorie, daughter of Arthur Venables Kyrke -- or Hylda as she apparently spelled it by then.
10)GEORGE ALBERT KYRKE (born about 1850 France and died Jun qtr 1923 in Hackney.
He's in the 1871 and later censuses, but can't find him in 1861 when many of the
rest of family are back in UK.
He's boarding with his father + brother Edmund in Montgomeryshire in 1861.
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Hi all
More on DORA VENABLES KYRKE, daughter of Richard3 Venables Kyrke.
Extracted from Visitations of Ireland, 1973: selected previews available at Google Books:
http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=zpR6uNPmV1EC
Marriage: Joseph Edward Deane-Drake, 29 Jun 1882, at Christ Church, Bwlchgwyn.
Death: 20 Aug 1904, at Stokestown House, co. Wexford.
Buried: 24 Aug 1904 at New Ross, co. Wexford.
Children:
1. Emily Frances Deane-Drake, b. 7 Jun 1883
Married Arthur Isaac Tyndall of Oaklands, co. Wexford, 2 Jun 1909, at St Mary's, New Ross, co. Wexford.
2. Cecil John Venables Deane-Drake, b. 30 Mar 1887
Entered the Army as 2nd Lieutenant Royal Munster Fusiliers 8 Feb 1908, and was promoted Lieutenant 1 Mar 1910.
Lineage of the Deane-Drakes is on pp 112-113 (includes details of the marriage + births of the 2 children) + p158 (Dora's death) + p352 (further details of Emily and Cecil).
NB: these are the online Google page numbers, not those from the publication itself -- search inside the book for Deane-Drake and they'll be highlighted to go straight there.
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I think Henry KYRKE-SMITH (b 29 Nov 1851 d 21 October 1904) of Liverpool was a descendant of the Gwersyllt Kyrkes but am struggling to find the link.
His father had him christened Henry Kyrke SMITH but Henry changed it to Henry KYRKE-SMITH by deed poll.
Henry's father was Edward SMITH and to my surprise I have been able to trace his father - Charles Roe SMITH (and mother'Sarah'), and paternal grandparents George and Sarah. (As an aside, Henry's brother, Thomas May SMITH christened a son Charles Roe SMITH 1 March 1881)
As discussed previously in this thread, Richard KIRK (abt 1746-1839) of Gwersyllt was a business partner of the industrialsist Charles ROE. Additionally, Richard's son George KYRKE married Charles' grand-daughter Harriott ROE.
So I think Henry KYRKE-SMITH must have got his Kyrke moniker from his father's side, but I have failed to find the link.
Can any of you sleuths work it out?
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In the Liverpool Mercury dated 5 Sept 1890, there is mention of a Henry Kyrke Smith.
Probate of the Will of Thomas Danson Edmunston of the firm of Messrs Wright , Crossley & Co spice seed merchants and millers has been granted to Robert Henry Edmondson brother of the deceased, the other executor Henry Kyrke Smith the surviving partner of the said firm having duly renounced probate and execution of the will.
http://www.london-gazette.co.uk/issues/26010/pages/26/page.pdf
Same man ??
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Many thanks wilcoxon, same man
Henry gets quite a few mentions. The Kyrke bit of his name makes him easy to spot!
I didn't mention in my previous email but this Henry named a son Arnold. That is a traditional name in the Kyrke ancestors of Richard KIRK (abt 1746-1839) of Gwersyllt. In addition, the Kyrke-Smith family of Henry was brought up in Toxteth Park, Liverpool. This is where the Roe family had a copper smelter.
Henry's father Edward SMITH died between the 1851 and 1861 census. A passing thought was that father Edward had died before the son was born (there are 3 Liverpool deaths for Edward SMITHs in Q2/3 1851) and the Kyrke family helped support widow Sarah SMITH and family, so the newborn son was named accordingly. I haven't found any hard evidence to support this idea. My pockets aren't deep enough to order all the Edward SMITH death certificates going. I haven't found a burial for Edward recorded in the National Burial Index.
At the time of the 1841 and 1851 census, I find Edward SMITH and family in Liverpool but no Kyrke or Roe neighbours.
Hmmm...
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When was Edward Smith born , what was his last occupation, was he ever a flour dealer.
There may be something in the news.
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Charles Roe SMITH did he have anything to do with Bangor , Caernarvon, what was his occupation. When was he born and died .
There is mention of both of these names in the same article
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Henry's father, Edward was born (according to 1851 census return) at Corfe Castle, Dorset. According to IGI, Edward was born 4 Feb 1809, christened 20 June 1809 (info from Wareham Prebyterian). I can't read Edwards's occupation on the 1841 census looking more closely, it's brewer. In the 1851 census and Henry's birth certificate (took six weeks to come from Liverpool!), Edward was a brewer.
It just occurs to me (doh!), Edward registered Henry's birth so the idea of grateful support from the Kyrke family in times of bereavement goes out of the window.
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Could this be Edward
Liverpool Mercury Friday, May 29, 1857
Death May 27th aged 48 Mr Edward Smith late of the Islington Brewery , Devon Street.
Looks like the Charles Roe Smith is unconnected then, just a coincidence .
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Liverpool Mercury Friday, November 18, 1853
There is an advert looking for " some healthy active boys of good character to be apprenticed as colliers to a coal proprieter in one of the best parts of Yorkshire. "
Adress for application is Edward Smith , Islington Brewery.
I wonder if he had any connection to the coal mines.
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Thanks wilcoxon
Edward and family lived in Islington, Liverpool
I have checked Trade Directories but not found an Islington Brewery. I have also failed to find this Edward SMITH in these directories. I have also looked for a link betweem Edward and Yorkshire but not found one.
All the same, it looks like the advertisement was placed by the same Edward.
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Hi, I was always told that the Kyrke family from Nant y Ffrith donated the ground (fact) for Bwlchgwyn Church to be built on and they also paid for the building (no proof) Their daughter Dora's was the first wedding to take place in the new church-Tom
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Could this be Edward
Liverpool Mercury Friday, May 29, 1857
Death May 27th aged 48 Mr Edward Smith late of the Islington Brewery , Devon Street.
Looks like the Charles Roe Smith is unconnected then, just a coincidence .
Hi again wilcoxon. Thank you very much for your searching the newspapers. This has got to be the man -well found!
Please would you explain why Edward's death in 1857 rules out Charles Roe SMITH as Edward's father...
My reasoning was that the 1851 census has Edward (brewer) born at Corfe Castle, Dorset aged 41 years. This fits neatly with the birth and chistening mentioned before, which is the link to Charles Roe SMITH.
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...Their daughter Dora's was the first wedding to take place in the new church-Tom
Thanks mineraite - thats a nice story to have attached to Dora. It's details like this that make family history an interesting pastime!
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These are extracts from what I found in the paper.
I thought this Edward Smith in the article may have been linked to Charles Roe Smith clockmaker , your Edward was born about 1809 , so looking at the date of the 1835 article then the Bangor Edward Smith would have to have been about 26.
North Wales Chronicle (Bangor, Wales), April 21, 1835
Notice to creditors, Charles Roe Smith of Bangor , gunmaker and clockmaker etc etc ---- persons who stand indebted to pay amount of debts to Edward Smith , Flour merchant Bangor.
May 10, 1836
A John Williams has moved in to the premises in Castle Street, Bangor , previously occupied by Charles Roe Smith.
Just a thought ;)
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Mentions of a brewery in Devon Street,
October 24, 1851
Cart for sale , Islington Brewery 21 Devon St,
June 9, 1865
George Carrington aged 28 fell into a tub of scalding water at Devon St brewery , his employer was a Mr Duck. George died.
March 16, 1870
Devon St, Brewery. mentioned in advert
December 30, 1881
Devon Street, Brewery.mentioned in advert
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...North Wales Chronicle (Bangor, Wales), April 21, 1835
Notice to creditors, Charles Roe Smith of Bangor, gunmaker and clockmaker etc etc ---- persons who stand indebted to pay amount of debts to Edward Smith , Flour merchant Bangor...
Thanks again wilcoxon
I'm not sure this Charles Roe SMITH/Edward SMITH combination is the one I am interested in but it is certainly worth following up.
Preliminary searching has not come up with anything on clockmaking or flour trading in Bangor, And I haven't found a family link either to Mr Duck the brewer or Mr Williams ?clockmaker? of Bangor.
I'm not sure how to progress this so I'll try a post on the Caernarfonshire message board.
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post deleted
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Charles ROE was born in Castleton, Derbyshire, not too far from the birthplace of Thomas KIRK (1747-1839). He seems to be a celebrity in the mining world. See
http://www.derbyscc.org.uk/alderley/history_biographies.php#cr
Roe married three times to Elizabeth Langford (m.1743), Mary Stockdale (m.1752) and Rachel Harriott (m.1766). He died at Macclesfield in 1781 and was buried in Macclesfield where a monument was erected in Christ Church.[/i]
~~~~~~~~------------
The Blackburn Standard Wednesday, February 08, 1837
On the 30th ult Mr Charles Roe of Macclesfield aged 51 years , an honest ,upright, guileless man . He was the eldest son of the late Joseph Roe Esq of Congleton and the grandson of the late Charles Roe Esq founder of Christchurch
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Is there anyone who can help me find out about my Great Grandfather Jeremiah Chaffers-welsh I know he married a Kyrke (Helena Baker).
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if you read the whole of this thread, look at page 6. « Reply #58 on: Monday 09 May 11
There are some details about him starting there,
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Hello
James Arnold KYRKE was born in Avranches (Manche) on May 31st 1844.
Du 1er juin 1844
Acte de naissance de James Arnold Kyrke, né à Avranches hier à 9 heures du matin, fils de Mr Richard Venables Kyrke, rentier, âgé de 51 ans, né en Angleterre demeurant à Avranches, et de dame Jane Frances Horseman, son épouse, âgée de 36 ans, née en Angleterre, demeurant à Avranches.
sur la déclaration & la représentation de l'enfant à nous faite par pour l'absence du père par la dame Véronique Agathe femme Eudes, sage femme, qui a fait l'accouchement, âgée de 51 ans, domiciliée à Avranches, en présence de M.M. John POE, rentier, âgé de 65 ans, & Robert KNAPTON, rentier, âgé de 45 ans, tous deux demeurants à Avranches.
It's KYRKE James Arnold in the index. He seems to be the only child named KYRKE born in Avranches between 1843 and 1852.
http://www.archives-manche.fr/ark:/57115/a011288085767tl5YTO/064160b504
Frame 203/374 - number 110
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No birth KYRKE found in Granville same period 1843-1852
http://www.archives-manche.fr/ark:/57115/a011288085769NBMgZj/d77a6ad31c
Frame 479/749
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That`s an interesting find.
There has been more content added for Kyrke on this site linked below.
As there are variations of the name they are listed under the Kirk section.
They may be relevant.
http://www.clwydsurnames.org.uk/K.html