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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Kirkcudbrightshire => Topic started by: cass2 on Wednesday 15 September 10 11:48 BST (UK)
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I am trying to track down information about Joseph and his family after they moved from Leeds to Dumfries, specifically Solway Fisheries near New Abbey. The family were Quakers which makes things a little tricky.
Any help would be appreciated
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Hi :)
Is Joseph the one mentioned in this message:
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,353029.msg2310809.html#msg2310809
Born in America in 1850 and in Harrogate in 1861?
I see that you have identified this family as yours.
Can you give some background information about his family, please, so that we can help.
Gadget
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I see a possible on the 1901 is this him?
Virginia House, Colvend, Kirkcudbrightshire
GROS Ref - 861/1 ED 1 P 13
Armistead
Joseph J, 55, Fish culturist, b. England
Sarah, 52, b. -do-
Joel Cadbury, brother in law, 63, director of ? company, b. -do-
Maria -do-, 59, b. -do-
George M Johnston, visitor, 14, b. Glasgow
Susan F Brier, 40, domestic servant cook, b. Wigtown, Wigtownshire
Gadget
PS - I think so as in 1891 he is in New Abbey :)
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Full info for 1891in case you don't have it.
Solway Fishery, New Abbey, Kirkcudbrightshire
GROS Ref - 877 ED 3 P 1
Armstead
Joseph John Armstead, 45, Pisciculturist, b. England
Wilson Holham Armstead , son, 16, -do-, b. -do-
John Laidlaw Scott, 21. -do-. b. Penpoint, Dumfries
Edward Neil, 29, -do-, b. Buittle, Kirkcudbrightshire
Elizabeth Walker, 18, cook domestic servant, b. Caerlaverock, Dumfriesshire
Gadget
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I think they'd only recently arrived in the 1881 as daughter, aged 2, was b. England
1881
Douglashall, Colvend
GROS Ref - 861 ED 3 P 1
John Joseph Armistead, 35, pisciculturalist and Naturalist, b. England
Sarah Hotham -do-, 31, b. -do-
Wilson Hotham -do-, 6, b. -do-
Juanita Malinson Bragg -do-, 2, b. -do-
Emmeline Bridget Frazer, 23, governess, b. -do-
Alice Adah Sophia Tandy, visitor,23 clergyman's daughter, b. Southwick, Bristol
Harry David Walter -do-, visitor, 16, clergyman's son, b. England
Arthur Wilson Armistead, boarder, 28, piscicultualist, b. -do- *
Clara Robertson Hornell, 12, gen domestic servant, b. Balmaghie, Kirkcudbrightshire
(I wouldn't like to type this on my laptop :-X )
Gadget
*added - from the 1871 census, I see that Arthur is Joseph's brother
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The trail seems to go dead after 1901. I don't see any death records for Joseph or Sarah in Scotland and nothing definite in Eng & Wales so far.
How did he move from being a mustard manufacturer in Leeds (family business) to being a fish culturalist in 1881 ???
Gadget
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I've just found Joseph's brother and daughter in 1901. It appears that they remained at the Solway Fishery:
Solway Fishery,New Abbey, Kirkcudbrightshire
GROS Ref - 877 ED 3 page 1
Armistead
Arthur W, 49, Managing Director of Fishery Co., b. England
Juanita M B, niece, 22, House Keeper, b. England
Gadget
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Juanita Armistead married Ernest Aubrey Litten in Dornock, Dumfriesshire in 1903
The full certificate can be viewed and downloaded from the Scotlands people site www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk
It's pay to view but very reasonable.
Gadget
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I believe that Juanita and Ernest moved to England soon after the marriage.
There is a birth registration for a Muriel S Litten (mother's surname Armistead) Dec q 1911, Wells, Somerset, v 5c p 718
Gadget
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Juanita Mallinson B Litten died in Cornwall in 1977
Details ~
Birth date 4 September 1878
March q, 1977, Camborne-Redruth, vol 21 Page 93
Gadget
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Joseph's wife Sara H Armistead died in Wells in 1930, aged 81
Sept q, Wells, 1930 vol 5c p 453
Gadget
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It looks as if son Wilson Hotham Armistead may have married Abigail Spencer Burtt :
Sept q 1898, Newark, vol 7b p 759
Only these name listed on the page :-\ I'll see if I can locate them on the 1901.
Gadget
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I've found the death of Abigail S Armistead in 1938, aged 62
Dec q, Liverpool South, 1938, vol 8b p 1
Not having much luck with Wilson H at the moment.
I might leave you to read all this and come back later :)
Gadget
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Just found this so ~
I think that they might have gone to the USA at some stage
There is a passenger listing for an Abigail Armistead, arriving Liverpool from New York on 1 Dec 1936, aged 60.
Ship ~ Laconia, Cunard White Star Line
Propsed residence in UK
Silverdale Road, Arnside, Westmorland
Gadget
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Well done Gadget, thorough as usual.... :)
cass2, I imagine you have the following, but if not, pages 17 to 21 give useful info on 'your' family.
http://www.daveireland.co.uk/Lyddon/docs/history.pdf
Top of page 20 of the .pdf below seems to indicatethat he died in 1929 and Sarah in 1830. Also gives info on dau Jaunita.
http://www.pennyghael.org.uk/Benson.pdf
and lastly a comprehensive Armistead tree which includes your family - yours?
http://armistead.pgvhosting.com/individual.php?pid=I2765&ged=Armisteadall.GED&tab=0
On freebmd a possible death entries for both
Dist. Vol. Page.
JUNE 1929 Armistead Joseph J 83 Wells 5c 500
SEPT 1930 Armistead Sara H 81 Wells 5c 453
A on rootsweb a tree with nothing that is not in the tree above.
http://wc.rootsweb.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?op=GET&db=charles681&id=I31954
1913 Wilson H Arminstead speech at 157 in Solway Nature Notes.
http://www.archive.org/stream/transactionsjour31191213dumf/transactionsjour31191213dumf_djvu.txt
Regards, Steve :)
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;D ;D ;D
Oh dear Steve - I am always thorough. It's part of my training! I would never ever rely on published trees - always check and double check!
I bet those people spent ages doing the trees, etc. and it took me a few hours if that - what a difference having good online resources make and then I go out and have a lovely Italian meal and you confirm what I've already found with a few bits extra :)
Gadget
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A little more information ~
Wilson Hotham Armistead died Colvend, Kirkcudbrightshire in 1831, aged 56.
The following Arm*st*d births are recorded at New Abbey
1886 Joseph John
1890 Elizabeth Hotham Dorothy Ermyntrude
There is a marriage for John Joseph in 1913, Dumfries to Mary Agnes McLean
Again, the full certificates can be viewed/downloaded on the Scotlands People site - link previously given.
I believe that Elizabeth H D E called herself Dorothy:
1901 Census
Brookfield Academy, Wigton, Cmberland
RG13/4873/20/25
Dorothy Armestead, boarder, 11, b. Scotland
Still trying to find a possible marriage/death for her in Eng/Wales/Scot and more on John Joseph/MaryAgnes
Gadget
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I think he went to Norway to live with a Quaker fishing community. See John Ormerod Greenwood, Quaker Encounters Volume II, p195 and JJ Armistead Piloted (london 1906) and Ten Years Near the Arctic Circle (1913).
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I think he went to Norway to live with a Quaker fishing community. See John Ormerod Greenwood, Quaker Encounters Volume II, p195 and JJ Armistead Piloted (london 1906) and Ten Years Near the Arctic Circle (1913).
Hi Lukekelly :)
Which of the male Armisteads went to Norway?
Gadget
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Just to say that I'm not going to do anymore investigations until there is a response from cass2. it seems a bit daft to go on when the original poster hasn't come back to confirm or deny. She's not been on since posting her query so she's not seen all this and will need to spend some time reading it all.
It may be of use to others I suppose :-\
Gadget
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JJ Armistead and his wife Sara
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JJ Armistead and his wife Sara
thanks Steve :)
I assume that that is Joseph John and Sarah Hotham who both died in the Wells RD in 1929-1930.
The John H that some of the trees mention as born circa 1878 was a John Herbert who died Leeds in 1880 aged 1. I'm not sure that he's the son - unless anyone wants to buy the cert
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Many thanks to all of you.
I have quite a bit of info on the family. JJ his wife Sarah and the 2 youngest children all went to Norway. The book Piloted is definitely them. Thanks for the marriage of Juanita as I did not have that. The youngest daughter Elizabeth HDE Armistead was known as Ermyn and I know she got married in Norway to someone named Nilsen but apart from that I have no info about her. The youngest son known as Mac went to America at some point to study theology with D.L. Moody in Chicago. I can find no trace of him after that. I am assuming that JJ and Sarah moved to Wells from Scotland as he had arthritis and it would be closer to his eldest daughter. Why the Solway Fisheries ceased to be I do not know. I have found evidence that his brother Arthur and then his son Wilson Hotham took over the business but have no idea what happened next.
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Hi Gadget :)
It seems a very long and complicated story about the change of business. JJ's father Wilson was left the family business in Leeds but was more interested in abolishing slavery in the USA than taking care of business. Wilson died in 1868 and JJ together with his brother Arthur worked day and night to rebuild the business. However, JJ was only 20 and there was some complication with the will and everyone wanted their money back all at the same time so he decided to call it a day and sold up. The mustard business was sold to JJ Colman in Norfolk (Yes, that Colman's) and they moved lock stock and barrel to Scotland. He already had an interest in fish culture and had been running a successful business with a John Parnaby in Cumbria. JJ's fish business was very successful and tavelled all over the world. I have found mentions in Canada, USA, Ireland, Germany. He not only sold the eggs/fry but fishing equipment as weel. He also lectured in fish culture all over the world. He is an extremely interesting character.
Hope this helps you with helping me.
Cass2
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It's an extremely interesting family. I've been doing quite a bit of reading up on them as I've a great interest in the Rowntree Foundation, also Quakers. I think some of my research work was funded by them in the 1970s :)
I've been thinking of investigating the people who were visiting them in the censuses - were the Cadbury family The Cadburys of chocolate fame? and who were the Tandy family, etc. Lots of interesting avenues to explore :)
Gadget
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Hi Gadget :)
I have just found out that Joel Cadbury was married to Sarah's older sister Maria so that would make her a Hotham before her marriage.
I would like to find out more about the other side of the Armistead family following down on Edward's side. (Wilson Armistead's brother). He had a huge family. His first wife appears to have died in childbirth having Hannah Sophia and he was remarried very quickly to Sarah Ann Webster, their first child, Joseph, was born 1949 in Cincinatti, Ohio but was classed as a British subject. His first wife Elizabeth Sykes was a minor on the marriage cert. (not sure what age this was but presumably under 18). Cannot trace her as there are loads in Leeds, her father was John and was a Clothier but that is all I know. Edward must have benefited from the sale of the family business (i.e. JJ and Arthur) which was not only mustard manufacturers but also brush manufacturers. Edward was retired by the age of 48. (Lucky him)
Cass2
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Hi :)
A minor would be under 21, I think it was 25 for the Royal Family! When did Edward marry Elizabeth?
Is this family the one that you found on the other thread - the one that Mum44 did quite a bit of work on?
It you could summarize what you have and don't have on them, it would help to avoid any duplication in searching.
Gadget
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Have you got Edward and Sarah on the 1850, US census?
There's not a lot but here it is:
District 4, Scott County, Iowa (22 August 1850)
Family Number - 90
Armistead
Edward, 27, no occupation, B. England
Sarah A, 31, -do-
Hannah, 3, -do-
Joseph, 1, b. Ohio
Mary Blackburn, 30, no occ, b. England
Gadget
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Did you see these entries for Edward's son, Joseph
1881
Wen-back, Croft, Lancashire
RG11/3789/36/20
Armistead
Joseph, 31, Iron merchant, b. Cincinnati, Ohio, United States
Eliza Ann, 26, b,. Darlington, Durham
Eleanor Gertrude, 9, Staffordshire, Smethwick
Sam, 7, b. Lanc, Stretford
Joseph, 5, b -do-
Alice Hayes, widow, 23, domestic servant, b. -do-
1891
Bridge Road, Barnes, Surrey
RG12/624/51/11
Armistead
Joseph, 41, Commission Agent, b. Cincinnati, Ohio, USA
Eliza Ann, 36, b. Darlington
Elenor Gertrude, 20, b. Smethwick
Joseph, 15, Builder's apprentice, b. Stretford
Margery, 3. b. Aigburth, Lancs (?)
Dorothy, 1, b. London
Harold Marshall, visitor, 5, b. Liverpool
(Joseph is with family in 1851 and in school in Harrogate in 1861 but not found in 1871)
Gadget
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I think this is their marriage:
Dec q, 1869, Guisborough, v 9d p 859
Joseph Armistead and Eliza Anne Breckon are on the same page
Gadget
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Eliza and Eleanor G in 1871. Eliza has been wrongly surnamed (do-ed)
4 Park Place, Bishopwearmouth, Sunderland,
RG10/5005/81/49
Breckon
John R, 42, collier manager, b. Yorks, Staithes
Elizabeth, mother, 79, b. Yorks ?
Eliza A, daughter, mar, 18, b. Darlington
Louise, 13, b. -do-
Elizabeth, 11, b. -do-
Eleanor, 4. b. do-
Eleanor G Armistead, grdd, 5 months, b. Smethwick
Margaret Moorhouse, 40, housekeeper, b. Canthorpe, Yorks (?)
Mary Walker, 22, housemaid, b. Ireland
Ellen Baird, 19, housemaid, b. Birmingham
Gadget
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There's a lot about Edward's family here if you work through:
http://armistead.pgvhosting.com/individual.php?pid=I2749&ged=Armisteadall.GED
(a subsidiary to the link that Steve put up)
The info for Joseph checks out but I've not got time to check the others at the moment.
Gadget
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Hi Gadget
You have been busy.
I have quite a lot of info already on Edward's side of the family. I know who most of the children married - Hannah married Frederick Beer and they had 5 children. Joseph born in USA married Eliza Anne Breckon they had 6 children. Kate married Edmund Molyneux Sutcliffe they had 7 children. Fanny died age 13. Charlotte Blanche married John Bannerman Kennedy they had 1 child. William i have been unable to trace. Florence Wilson married Frank Sternberg they had 2 children (turbulant marriage I believe) Edward I have been unable to trace. Thomas Webster married Florence Annie Costigan they had 2 children. Emily Gertrude I believe may have remained unmarried and died in 1916 but not absolutely certain. Reginald Walter married Amy Louisa Lloyd they had 2 children.
I would like to know a bit more about William Armistead Sutcliffe born in 1874 Birkenhead he apparently changed his name from Sutcliffe to Burton before his marriage to Mary Patchett and before emigrating to New Zealand. I have found evidence of this on the web as his second son was quite well know in N.Z. I do not know the name of his 1st child or any of the other children. I also do not know why he changed his name, I cannot find any reason why he should want to.
Elizabeth Sykes married Edward Armistead in Feb 1846 she died Jan 1847
Cass
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Hi Cass
You said:
e.
I would like to find out more about the other side of the Armistead family following down on Edward's side. (Wilson Armistead's brother).
Maybe you should start another thread (Possibly Cheshire) on William Armistead Sutcliffe as we've moved out of Kirkcudbrigtshire. Is he not on the Armistead tree?
Gadget
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William Armistead Sutcliffe was one of Kate Armistead's children. I know he was married in 1905 in Ormskirk and had changed his name to Burton by then.
Cass :)
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I assume that most of the information about him after that would be from when he emigrated - have you asked about him on the New Zealand board:
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/board,299.0.html
Gadget
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Here is a little more info about Wilson Armistead's side of the family.
Wilson married Mary Bragg in 1814 their children were Joseph John who married Sarah Hotham in 1873. Anthony Wilson who married Emma Chestine Kjoller after he had emigrated to NZ. Arthur Wilson who I know very little about. Mary Louisa who married George Allen in 1878 and Sarah Maria who confused me no end when she married Anthony William Wilson in 1875.
I have assumed that Arthur remained in Scotland running the Solway Fisheries in J J's abscence until Wilson Hotham took it over. I do not know how long the business remained in the Armistead family as the only thing I know about Wilson Hotham Armistead is that he was born in 1874 married Abigail Spencer Burtt in 1898 and invented a Salmon Fish Ladder, whether it was ever built anywhere I have no idea however it does look very much like the Salmon Ladder in Pitlochry.
I do not know JJ's 2nd son's birthday or what happend to him confusingly
also called Joseph John born in 1887 Scotland or of his sister Elizabeth H D E known as Ermyn born in 1890 Scotland
Cass
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Thanks Gadget
I didn't know about the NZ board that may be very useful to me
Cass ;D
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Regarding Edward Armistead, Wilson's brother, his 1st wife was Elizabeth Sykes but she died (I believe in childbirth with Hannah Sophia) 20 Jan 1847. On 14 Dec 1847 in Pontefract he married Sarah Anne Webster, younger sister of my gt-gt-grandfather Robert Holmes Webster. They had 11 children, but 2 daughters called Fanny both died young, one in infancy, the other in childhood. William apparently died at sea (he was a 2nd officer) aged c22. One daughter married a Leeds artist Francis Sternberg, but he left her for Harriet Louise, the daughter of her sister ! Harriet's older brother William Armistead Sutcliffe, according to one of my contacts, married Mary Patchett twice - in 1903 he was in the army and failed to get his commanding officer's permission to wed, so married her again in 1905. I wonder if the shame of it (!) was what caused him to change his name to Burton and flee to NZ ??
See PhpGedView for more details on the Armisteads...
Ian W
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Hi,
I am the great great granddaughter of JJ Armistead and today have been reading some of his books that he wrote about his time in Norway. I also have diaries written by his granddaughter Dorothy about her time on the Red Cross boat travelling around Norway.
I also have a visitors book that belonged to my Great Grandmother Juanita Litten nee Armistead (JJ Armistead's daughter) that also details the guests at a party held for JJ Armistead & Sarah Hotham Armistead's 50th Wedding Anniversary.
Claire
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Hi Joseph Armistead was well known, and (I think) still has at least one descendant in Dumfries.
He was a member and contributor to the DGNHAS (natural history and antiquarian society)
see http://www.dgnhas.org.uk/ta_result.php