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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Hertfordshire => Topic started by: mandaley on Thursday 16 September 10 06:12 BST (UK)
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Hi All
Wondered if anyone has come across Harry Thomas MESSER b1871 who married Flora Emily BALLS in 1897 Suffolk. Believe his parents were Albert and Hannah who according to census had five other children - Alice, Alfred, Albert, Cordelia, Hannah.
Not sure if they lived in St Albans or Harpenden or Wheathampstead. Have seen a page by a Val MESSER about the Messer of Wheathampstead but no match maybe.
Thanks
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Hi
HTM and FEM are in Harpenden in 1901 with a daughter Elsie Kathleen
Regards
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Hi
In 1881, again Harpenden (Harpenden Cottage), Hannah is a widow with 6 children
Hannah, Cordelia, Albert, Harry, Alfred, Alice.
1891 Harry seems to be in Marylebone, Draper's Assistant in a lodging house.
Regards
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Hi
1871 Albert and Hannah + 3 children + niece + "staff" were in the Horse&Jockey in AyotStPeter
Regards
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Hi somebody on the norfolk lookup requests site researching balls family might be of some help.
regards alan
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Thanks everyone. All very helpful. Will have a look on the Norfolk forum too. Mandaley
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Hi Mandaley,
Possible Marriage from FreeBMD;
Albert MESSER
Hannah TYE, September 1863, Woodbridge, 4a 877
1871 census under MASSER;
"Horse and Jockey" Ayot Green,
Ayot St Peter, Hertfordshire
RG10/1375/66/6
Albert MESSER, 29, Head, Mar, Publican, born Ayot St Peter, Herts
Hannah, 34, Wife, Mar, born Hasketon, Suffolk
Hannah, 6, Daug, born Lingwood, Herts
Cordelia J, 4, Daug, born Ayot, Herts
Albert E, 2, Son, born Ayot, Herts
Hannah MARTIN, 13, Neice, born Hasketon, Suffolk
Info on Ayot Green and the "Horse and Jockey"
http://www.hertfordshire-genealogy.co.uk/data/places/places-a/ayot-st-peter.htm
Trish :)
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1851 Census Albert is with his Father and siblings;
HO107/1712/272/8
John MESSER, 50, Head, W, Annuitant, born Whitewell, Herts
Edward, 19, Son, born Ayot
Jane, 15, Daug, born Ayot
ALBERT, 9, Son, born Ayot
1841 Census
Ayot Green,
Ayot St Peter, Herts
HO107/436/3/St Peter Ayot
John MESSER, 40, Publican
Charlotte, 40
James, 10
Edward, 8
Jane, 5
All born in County
Living nearby are;
James Messer, 45, Farmer, Wife and child Emma, 13 and Thomas Messer, 40, Assistant to James and his Son Edward aged 20.
These are probably Brothers of John.
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1861 Hannah TYE is a Servant in Hasketon, Suffolk
RG9/1167/91/1
1851 as well HO107/1801/132/3
1841 Census
Hasketon, Suffolk
HO107/1020/9/Hasketon
John TYE, 35, Ag Lab
Sarah, 35
Emma, 10
HANNAH, 7
John, 4
Sarah, 4mths
All born in County
Marriage;
Emma TYE, Sept 1856, Woodbridge, 4a 879
On the same page is William MARTIN
So this proves that Hannah was a TYE as Neice Hannah Martin is with them in 1871 census the Daughter of Hannahs Sister Emma ;)
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From Familysearch Pilot;
Marriage;
John TYE/ Sarah MAYS, 12 October 1826, Hasketon, Suffolk
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Birth Reg;
Flora Emily BALLS, Dec 1871, Ipswich, 4a 568
1881 Census
RG11/1851/96/1
Tavern St, Stowmarket, Suffolk
William Balls, 47, Head, Mar, Inspector of Police, born Westleton, Suffolk
Emily J. Balls, 40, Wife, Mar, born Weybread
Arethusa Balls, 16, Daug, Scholar,born Holbrook
Frederick W. Balls, 14, Son, Clerk at Railway Office, born Holbrook
Ernest E. Balls, 11, Son, Scholar, born Holbrook
FLORA E. Balls, 9, Daug, Scholar, born Ipswich
Stanley N. Balls, 3, Son, born Stowmarket
Gertrude H. Balls, 1, Daug, born Stwomarket
+ 2 Lodgers, both Police Constables
John F. Page, 22
John Mann, 20
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Thankyou everyone for all the leads and references. That gives me so much more to follow -publicans and police and to know they came from Suffolk too.
Regards.
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A little more Mandaley ;D
1871 Census
Ipswich, Suffolk
RG10/1752/24/16
William Balls, 36, Head, Mar, Sargeant in Suffolk Police
Emily Balls, 31, Wife, Mar
Edith Balls, 6, Daug
Frederick Balls, 4, Son
Ernest Balls, 2, Son
Looks like Edith is Arethusa.
Birth Reg; Arethusa BALLS, March 1865, Samford, 4a 697
Now I couldnt find a Marriage to a Emily for William on FreeBMD.
If you look on Familysearch there is a submitted entry;
William BALLS/Jemima Emily BRETT, married 1853, Hoxne, Suffolk.
Click on the names and there is extra info that matches what I have found.
From FreeBMD;
William BALLS, December 1863, Hoxne, 4a 1132
On the same page is Jemima BRETT
Birth Reg; Jemima Emily BRETT, June 1840, Hoxne, 13 431
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And a Miller too ;D
1841 Census
Westleton, Suffolk
HO107/1017/9/Westleton
John BALLS, 45, Miller
Lydia, 44
John, 15
Samuel, 15
WILLIAM, 7
Caroline WALKER, 15, female Servant
All born in County
1851 Census William is a Lodger in Claydon and an Apprentice Carpenter
1861 Census he is Lodging in Holbrook and a Police Constable.
Interestingly in 1851 next door is a Police Sargeant maybe he influenced William to change professions!
HO107/1797/293/11
RG9/1160/119/11
Now you have a Glazier/Plumber also!
1841 Census
Magdalene St,
Eye, Suffolk
HO107/1023/7/Eye
Thomas Brett 35, Glazier
Mahala Brett 35
Martha Brett 11
Harriett Brett 4
JEMIMA Brett 1
All born in County except Martha age 11
Jemima Emily Brett
Gender: Female
Birth Date: abt 1840
Christening Date: 24 May 1840
Christening Place: Suffolk, England
Father's Name: Thomas Brett
Mother's Name: Mahalah
Source, Eng/Wales Christening Records
1851 Census
Weybread, Suffolk
HO107/1796/156/7
Thomas Brett 45, Head, Mar, Plumber and Glazier, born Stonham, Suffolk
Martha Brett 45, Wife, Mar, born Weybread, Suffolk
Martha Brett 21, Daug, Unm, Dressmaker, born Brockdish, Norfolk
Harriett Brett 13, Daug, Unm, Scholar, born Westbread, Suffolk
JEMIMA Brett 10, Daug, Unm, Scholar, born Westbread, Suffolk
Alfred Brett 1, Grandson, born Westbread, Suffolk
1861 Census they have moved to Norfolk
RG9//1152/36/30
Thomas Brett 53, Head, Plumber/Glazier, born Colechester, Essex(?)
Malaka Brett 54, Wife, born Weybread, Suffolk
JAMIMA Brett 20, Daug, Unm, Dressmaker, born Weybread, Suffolk
Arthur Brett 7, Grandson, Scholar, born Mensham, Norfolk
Harriet Ablett 75, Unm, Pauper, born Weybread, Suffolk
Marriage from Familysearch Pilot;
Thomas BRETT/ Mahalah OLLIOTT, 05 January 1829, SuffolkCounty BTS, Suffolk
Also on the IGI
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Thankyou so much Trish. More than I hoped for. Had no idea family came from Suffolk.
Just a question re free BDM Uk is the1881 the most complete?. Would that explain why I can't find people in 1851 or 71 but more often in 1881?. Or is it also misspelt names which I completely forgot about eg MASSER instead of MESSER.
Also how do people search for cemetery records of villages online. In NZ with only 150yrs+ most councils have put the info on a database on their websites.
Regards
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FreeBMD is the Birth/Marriage/Death Reg site in the UK and starts late 1837. Similar to NZ's new on-line B/M/D.
That is where to look for that info
www.freebmd.org.uk
Familysearch Pilot is another I used ffor Parish Records
http://pilot.familysearch.org/recordsearch/start.html#p=home
FreeREG is another free site;
http://www.freereg.org.uk/cgi/Search.pl
IGI at Familysearch;
http://www.freereg.org.uk/cgi/Search.pl
I am a NZ'er now living in Sydney so not an expert on English Cemetary Records but most are not on-line.
FreeREG does have some Burial Records.
The 1881 Census is free to search on Familysearch also.
Do you have access to Census Records other than that?
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And a Miller too ;D
1841 Census
Westleton, Suffolk
HO107/1017/9/Westleton
John BALLS, 45, Miller
Lydia, 44
John, 15
Samuel, 15
WILLIAM, 7
Caroline WALKER, 15, female Servant
All born in County
I am trying to find out more about Lydia Balls. Her maiden name is Newson and she was born in 1797 and died in 1854. I would love to know details about her parents and siblings. I have a sampler she made in 1806 when she was 9 and am trying to find some background about it, but I am not really very experienced in this. Can anyone please help?? I looked on the ancestory site, but there wasn't anything. Thanks!
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Welcome to Rootschat Ronayne123 :)
I cant seem to find Lydia in the 1851 Census so could you please give me her date/pob please.
The only Lydia Newson I could find was Christened 17 March 1793, Rumburgh, Suffolk to ROBERT and LYDIA. Lydia was nee FREEMAN.
I also cant find a 1854 Death Reg for a Lydia Balls.
Or did she remarry 1841-1851?
Trish :)
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Hi Trish! :) Thanks so much for the welcome and for checking for me.
I just found her in the 1951 census with a different birth date - looks like it could be an writing error - they have her birthdate as 1807 instead of 1797, but it definitely seems to be her. Perhaps her christening date was written down incorrectly as 1793 instead of 1798??
I looked in the free BMD index and she appears twice in there with the date 1868 and 1869, so the date of death that my mum gave to me must be wrong. I don't quite understand how to use the BMD index, other than searching it (i.e. what to do with the results). Sorry about that.
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Hi again,
I am going to post Census Refs for anyone who may be able to help that have access to Suffolk Records that I dont.
Lydia Balls;
1841, HO107/1017/9/Westleton (c 1797)
1851, HO107/1803/236/2 ( c 1807, Middleton)
1861, RG9/1179/55/17 ( c 1800, Middleton)
Christening;
Samuel BALLS
22 Aug 1824, Wesleyan, Framlington and Peasenhall, Suffolk
Parents, John BALLS, Lydia NEWSON
(F/S. Org)
+
JOHN, 30 March 1823
JOSEPH, 07 Oct 1825
WILLIAM, 29 June 1834
(Parents JOHN/LYDIA Balls)
I dont think the 1793 Christening is Lydia.
As you say Ronayne123 2 possible Death Regs in Blything;
March 1868 age 71
March 1869 age 72
There is another in Hoxne, March 1867 age 64
Trish :)
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I was looking at findmypast website (Parish Records Collection 1538-2005) and found a marriage entry for a Lydia Newson in 1821 at Middleton. I don't have a membership to view the record though, but it seems a suitable age for marriage (??) and the fact it's at Middleton is significant.
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Hopefully someone can help you with that :)
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I realised you can buy credits without a subscription, so I did that and it turns out it was her! She got married on 3rd of January 1821 in Middleton. Unfortunately, her parents are listed on the record. I will order the certificate and see if the parents names are on that. :)
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Harry Messer is my Great grandfather.
His daughter Elsie, is my grandmother.
Elsie married Albert (Bert) Clark in Harpenden, around 1928.
Bert Clark worked for the local chemist and eventually, opened his own shop, rivalling Boots, as "Clark's, The Chemist".
After the war, he went on to become Mayor of Harpenden.
My father, "Monty" Clark, can tell you much more about the Messers and "Flossie" Balls!
Regards, CTC
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I am the only son of Elsie Kathleen Clark nee Messer (as was recently posted here by my son). I am 82 and live in Canada.
EKC had a younger sister, Rita Messer. She married Jack Willis (of Batford Mill). They had a son and daughter. That family emigrated to New Zealand and became sheep farmers. I have lost contact with them.
There was an uncle Bob Messer lived in Harpenden. He only had one daughter, Brenda, who never married as far as I know.
I am more curious about the Balls side of the family. Flossie Balls had a sister, Gertrude. I believe their father was a police constable in Framlingham(?) which is on the river Ouse(?).
Years ago Sotheby's auctioned off some defunct titles. One of them was 'Lord Balls', and it included some fishing rights on the river Ouse. This might be my closest connection with the aristocracy?
'Monty' Clark
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EKC had a younger sister, Rita Messer. She married Jack Willis (of Batford Mill). They had a son and daughter. That family emigrated to New Zealand and became sheep farmers. I have lost contact with them.
Mandalay, I had the pleasure of meeting some of the Willis clan visiting Canada from New Zealand. That would have been about 1987.
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Mandalay,
I noticed by your profile that you are from NZ.
Are you a Willis relation?
The family of visitors that I met were Mother (nee Willis ), Father was 'Ron' I believe, and they brought their son, about 22 years old.
Ron and the son had beards - Ron's was dark coloured, and the son's was red.
I do not have PM or Email privileges on here, yet.
Please email me via Rootschat if you see this.
Thanks
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Hi
Good news! (To you Clarksthe......)
As you have now posted 3 times you may now send and receive Personal Messages (PM).
Ray
ps WELCOME TO ROOTSCHAT!
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Thank you, Ray
CTC
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Hello,
I kind of lost track of who wanted to know about the Balls family in Westleton.
As usual my angle is based on mills, and here it was three windmills.
John Balls is already listed as beging in Westleton in 1841. He was a Ralph's mill, and smock mill that stood until the 20's. He was also at the "Post Mill", by the village green and erected in about 1820.
More interestingly (at least to me) there was a Henry Balls at a post mill in Westleton in 1774, seems to have been a tenant miller, and I do not know which mill this was. But there are suggestions that it was an early mill that stood on Raplh's Mill site (it would make sense).
1811 saw the will of Richard Balls, who left most of his estate to Mary his wife. Executors were his brothers Joseph (miller at Middleton) and Francis (miller at Theberton).
Hope this helps someone.
Windy