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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Devon => Topic started by: CaptainWill on Wednesday 22 September 10 20:03 BST (UK)
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Greetings.
I have an ancestor named John Brice of Cruwys Morchard who married Dorothy Herd, around 1754.
According to different genealogy charts done by different descendants of the Brices, there are different views of whether this is the John Brice who was the 2nd son of a Henry Brice of Halberton (b.about 1690) who married a Christian Rowe of Uplowman.
This 2nd son John Brice was born in 1722, apparently in Halberton.
However another opinion is that this 2nd son of Henry and Christian, John Brice, married a Joan Drake in 1747.
That is a different family line to mine.
As I live in Australia I am a long way from local records and so I thought there might be someone who knows something about this.
E..g. info definitely ruling out, or ruling in, that Henry Brice and Christian Rowe's second son, born probably in Halberton and baptised on 30th May, 1722, was the one who later married Joan Drake in 1747, or was the one that married Dorothy Herd in 1754.
Also, more about Christian Rowe (or Row) would be interesting. She was born in 1687 in Uplowman.
I also noticed on another page on rootschat.com a discussion about a "Heard" family, and I wondered if the Dorothy Herd that my ancestor John Brice married was actually a Dorothy Heard! I might make a comment in that discussion as well.
I understood this Dorothy Herd was from Guernsey.
Sorry if there are too many questions here. Would appreciate any thoughts.
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Hi CaptainWill
Welcome to Rootschat !! :D
I have been looking on The National Archives and found this Will ...of course, I'm not sure if he is yours but it's difficult to find anything as far back as you are wanting, without actually looking at Parish Registers etc.
NA:
Online Document IR 26/335
Will of John Brice Tiverton, Devon . Proved in the Court of Exeter.
Date: 1805
This Will can be ordered online at The National Archives.
deb :0
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Thanks Deb, :)
I checked out the file you pointed out to me and have now obtained it, as well as two other Brice wills I found there.
Thanks for that helpful advice. Certainly the names of the children in this will confirm that this John Brice is my g-g-g-g grandfather. However it also adds some new names I was not aware of.
Unfortunately it does not tell me anything about his date of birth or names of his siblings or parents, and so it does not help me to distinguish whether he was the son of Henry Brice and Christian Rowe or not.
But with a little more of this sort of information I might be able to come across something that provides the answer to that question.
Thanks again and do keep in touch in any of these discussions. I might also know something about your kinfolk, as my cousins and I have pieced together a few things, and many of the spouses of our ancestors all came from the same towns or localities.
Regards,
Will.
P.S. modifying & adding the below info to this entry on 17.10.2010
(1) Thanks to the Will of John Brice that Deb found, which I procured from the National Archives, we have a resource from which to get more information.
The Will was proved in 1805, October 4th.
It's the will of John Brice of Tiverton, Devon.
The executor was William Carpenter / George Warren of [..illegible] Ex'ors in Trust
Names of Legatees are:
- John Brice ---------------- Son ----- Fifty five Pounds -
- (residuary Legatee) ----- ----- and the residue
----- subject as follows:
- Ephraim Brice -------- ditto --- Thirty Pounds
- James ditto --------- ditto --- ditto
- Thomas ditto --------- ditto --- Thirty Five Pounds
- Richard ditto --------- ditto --- ditto
- William ditto --------- ditto ---- Forty Pounds
- Anstice/Austice James - Daughter --- ditto
- Sarah Brice ---------- ditto ------ Thirty Pounds
- Nanny Brice ----------- ditto ------ Thirty Five Pounds
- Dorothy Wood ---------- ditto ------ Thirty Pounds
(2) Note re the name Anstice, at first I thought it was Austice as did my cousin in Melbourne but after seeing an extracted record from IGI that Deb later found (see in one of her entries further below) her name spelt 'Anstic' and re-examining it, I think the correct spelling is Anstice.
My cousin who thought it was "Austice" googled and found:
" Name: - Austice
Origin: - Australian
Gender: - Girls Name Austice "
She noted "Australian in origin" but when this child was born it was 1753, (pre-colony in Australia) so if so the name Austice mustn't be Australian in origin.
There is definitely an "e" on the end in the will record.
A baby names website says re the name "Anstice"
" The boy's name Anstice... also used as girl's name Anstice. Variant of Anastasios."
[female = Anastasia, meaning = "resurrected".]
Also my random browsing for it found it prevalent in Devon as a surname and first name going back to 1500's but usually male if first name.
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Hi Will
Found these:
Extracted Probate Records
Henry Brice, Halberton W. 1757
Book: Burials.
Devon and Cornwall: Wills and Administrations Proved in The Bishop of Exeter, 1559-1799
Joane Brice Exeter W. 1797 ,,,could this be Joan DRAKE
Wills and Administrations, The Bishop of Exeter, 1559-1799
deb
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Hi again
re: "Also, more about Christian Rowe (or Row) would be interesting. She was born in 1687 in Uplowman."
According to IGI (extracted record) Christian ROW was christened 29 March 1687, Uplowman , d/o John Row.
possible siblings: (father John Row, chr; Uplowman)
* Eliner ROW,2 FEB 1691
* Sara ROW,2 FEB 1691
* Agnes ROW, 23 OCT 1680
* Johan ROW 24 FEB 1681
these two are children of John and Joan, Uplowman
*Helen ROW, 28 MAR 1692
*Sarah Row, 28 MAR 1692
Submitted marriage entry
John Row = Jone Dyer
26 DEC 1679, Uplowman
Now if we can find John Row's will .... if he had one ....
deb
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Those wills above that Deb found would be worth looking at!
Something that can be useful in determining which family was which is to look at names. For example, if you look at Christian & Henry's parents' names, their siblings and their children - how do they compare to the names of your John Brice and Dorothy Herd's children? If you can find the other John Brice and Joan Drake's children - how do they compare? The names might be so common as to not give you any clues but it's worth a look in case there's a pattern.
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Hi Will
Found these:
Extracted Probate Records
Henry Brice, Halberton W. 1757
Book: Burials.
Devon and Cornwall: Wills and Administrations Proved in The Bishop of Exeter, 1559-1799
Joane Brice Exeter W. 1797 ,,,could this be Joan DRAKE
Wills and Administrations, The Bishop of Exeter, 1559-1799
deb
Yay, well done Deb!
But I don't know how you found them. I have spent some time looking on National Archives and have not found them. Pls let me know where you found those records.
As far as Henry Brice, husband of Christian Rowe, is concerned, our info has his death as 02.05.1755 in Halberton, and so the proving of the will in Exeter in 1757 fits, don't you think?
It would indeed reveal a lot as to whether this is the father of ...
1. the John Brice who married Joan Drake
or
2. the John Brice who married Dorothy Herd (my 4 x gt grandfather)
I have quite a lot of info about both familes in terms of their descendants .. i.e.:
I know the details of the descendants of Joan Drake.. some of them became a Brice family that settled on the South Coast of NSW, Australia, around Moruya, Bodalla, Tuross River, etc., and a book has been written about them, a copy of which I have.
" The Brice family : Bridford to Bodalla : a short account of the life of William and Ann Brice and their descendants / compiled by Shirley Doolan and Vere Max Brice
Book Bib ID 1046767. Description Eastwood [N.S.W.] : M. Brice, 1984. "
The Brice descendants of Dorothy Herd came to Adelaide, South Australia in 1850, and they did have a gold digging in Victoria in the 1850's before dispersing into Victoria and New South Wales.
The funny thing is that the researchers of both families seem to have identified their "John Brice" as the 2nd son of Henry Brice and Christian Rowe, born 30th May 1722.
It is certain that the South-Coast Brice family who provided us with a copy of a family tree that shows the "Joan Drake" John Brice as Henry's 2nd son, seem to have done extensive research, evidenced by this chart (going back to Christopher Brice and Beatrice, in Devon, round 1530) and also the abovementioned book.
However the "Dorothy Herd" Brices had descendants in the Channel Islands and USA who researched their history from as early as 1917, then in the 1960's and 1980's and seem sure that Dorothy Herd's husband was that 2nd son of Henry Brice.
What is needed is a piece of solid evidence that differentiates between these two possibilities.
The will of Henry Brice that you found could be that piece of evidence. Otherwise, I'm off to Guernsey on a holiday. Is it warm there in December?
By the way, the info about the Row family was very good and new to me. I have tried to look up more about that, too.
From the little I've looked into it, the Row's were numerous in Cornwall, it seems, and the first name "Christian" and variants of it were plentiful. I appreciate your info on that too. I think you have spotted the right people. Helen = Eliner (Helena) etc.
Will.
PS I'm going to respond also to Darwin's comment, and I'll include some more info on that posting in regard to the names of the descendents of the two respective John Brices. So I'd appreciate if I haven't already posted that to take a look back and bear with me on this..
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Thanks for your comment.
Something that can be useful in determining which family was which is to look at names. For example, if you look at Christian & Henry's parents' names, their siblings and their children - how do they compare to the names of your John Brice and Dorothy Herd's children? If you can find the other John Brice and Joan Drake's children - how do they compare? The names might be so common as to not give you any clues but it's worth a look in case there's a pattern.
After considering this I took a look at a family tree (see my posting in response to DEB) descending from Joan Drake ( & John Brice) and compared it with that descending from Dorothy Herd ( & John Brice).
Here are some facts that perhaps someone can use to throw light on this, and I'll add my reflections at bottom.
The children of Joan Drake (& John Brice) were thus:
Susanna Brice b. 1748 - died 1758 [aged 10]
Mary Brice b. about 1749 no info
Priscilla Brice b. 1750 died 1758 [aged 8]
John Brice b. 1752 died 1758 [ aged 6 ]
Thomas Brice b. 1753 no info
Elizabeth Brice b. 1754 died 1755 less than 1 yrs old
Edward Brice b.1756 survived, married "Letitia" and the forbear of a great family.
William Brice b. 1757 died 1758 [aged 6 months] (thus four children died in 1758)
John Brice b.1759 [no info]
All were born at Sampford Peverell in Devon.
The children of Dorothy Herd (? 'Heard') and John Brice of Cruwys Morchard were thus:
William Brice b. 1755 in Devon - a CAPTAIN of own ship. Southhampton & Guernsey.
Sarah / Sara Brice b. 1759
Anna / ?"Nanny" Brice b. 1762
Ephraim Brice b. 1764
Richard Brice b. 1765 born Cheriton Fitzpaine. Created brickworks in Guernsey.
George Brice b. 1767
Thomas Brice b. 1770
Dorothy ("Dolly") Brice b. 1772 (married a Mr. Wood)
Austice Brice b.? (married a Mr. James)
James Brice b.? no info
John Brice b.? no info
Apparently they were all born and baptised in Cheriton Fitzpaine in Devon although later hailed from Cruwys Morchard, "and sometimes of Southampton".
I found that the Herd / Heard name was relatively plentiful in Cheriton Fitzpaine and so I think their father John Brice must have married a Dorothy Herd from there and lived there.
Now in regard to your point, Darwin, about checking the congruence of names of descendants, I have looked up these descendants, as above, and it seems that the Joan Drake famliy (rather than the Dorothy Herd family) fits more with being descended from Henry Brice and Christian Rowe:
Henry Brice himself, b.1690's married Christian Rowe on 17 June 1718.
The children of Henry Brice and Christian Rowe are as follows:
1. Henry Brice b. 1719
2. John Brice b. 1722 (this is the one that two conflicting trees indentify as theirs)
3. Alexander Brice b. 1724 (died)
4. Alexander Brice b. 1727
5. Richard Brice b. 1729
6. William Brice b.1731
Siblings of Henry Brice (to compare with the names given to the grandchildren):
1. Thomas Brice b. 1695 married a Pricilla Bennett
2. Edward Brice b. 1701 married a Joah Bryant
3. John Brice b. 1704
4. Alexander Brice b. 1706
Henry Brice's father was an Edward Brice, b. 1656, in Uffculme, Devon
Henry Brice's grandfather was an Alexaner Brice, b. 1637, at Holcombe Rogus, Devon.
Among Henry Brice's siblings the name of their father Edward and grandfather Alexander is continued.
Henry and Christian seem to have named their children after (1) Henry himself and (2) Henry's grandfather.
Interestingly neither among Joan Drake's children nor among Dorothy Herd's children is there a Henry, or an Alexander, but in the Joan Drake children there is an Edward (Henry's father's name).
That fits, and so that gives one tick to the Joan Drake family.
Most notably among Joan Drake's children there is a "Priscilla". Not such a common name, and Henry Brice's brother Thomas's wife was Priscilla.
This is another tick for the Joan Drake family, since her husband John Brice was the nephew of Thomas Brice who married a Priscilla.
So I am inclined from this to have doubts it being the John Brice who married Dorothy Herd.
I appreciate your thoughts and comments and please also note the info I posted in my reply to Deb.
Will.
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Hi Will
Such a lot of info ... :)
re : The Wills... I found them on Ancestry.
England Tax, Criminal, Land & Wills:
UK, Extracted Probate Records
there is also this:
England Birth, Marriage & Death:
Devon, England, Extracted Parish Records
The Wills were proved in Exeter:
Wills and Administrations Proved in The Bishop of Exeter
DEVON RECORD OFFICE
CASTLE STREET
EX4 3PU EXETER , DEVON
Phone: 01392 384253
devon.gov.uk/dro/homepage.html
http://www.devon.gov.uk/record_office
deb
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Hi Will
Found some details … Will post them and hopefully we can figure out who’s who!
Palot’s marriage Index:
Sarah Brice = Edwd Land 1791 Halberton
Hy Brice of Sampford Peverell = Jenny Osmond, 1792 Halberton
Wm Brice = Mary Brey 1792 Halberton
Alexander Brice = Sarah Woodbury (sign in Willand) Banns book, Halberton 1794
Alice Brice = Hy Hodge of Tiverton , Halberton 1794
Mary Brice = Wm Plimpton Halberton 1794
Robt Brice of Tiverton = Mary Chapman , Halberton 1790
Deb
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Hi again
Found this :
Australian Convict Transportation Registers – Third Fleet, 1791
John Brice
convicted in Devon:15 Mar 1790
Voyage Date: Jan 1791
New South Wales
HO 11/1
another convict on the same page is a John HEARD
I wonder if this John Brice accounts for one of them that has no known details ?
deb
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Hi
I wonder if this refers to your William Brice, Captain. It's nothing to do with lineage.
William Brice b. 1755 in Devon - a CAPTAIN of own ship. Southhampton & Guernsey.
from NA
Coloured drawing of a frigate's quarter gallery and head on account sheet of William Brice
Two entries of account for journeys 19th - 29th December.
1775
352M/PZ 1
(held at Devon RO)
There is no title to this record but it looks like it could be some sort of Removal Orders:
Thomas Brice, Priscilla his wife, John, Edward and Susanna their sons and daughter, of Halberton 1198A-1/PO 133 1725/6
held at Devon Record Office, Sampford Peverell Parish
the names here look like names featured as children of John Brice and Joan Drake...perhaps they are the Parents of this John Brice!!
ie: John Brice who married Joan Drake is the son/child mentioned in the removal orders above with parents Thomas and Priscilla!! Look at the parish name ...Sampford Peverell.
woobly screen will be back
deb
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Hi Back
I hope I made sense in my last post;
this is my thinking ...
okay
The children of Joan Drake (& John Brice) :
Susanna Brice b. 1748 - died 1758 [aged 10]
Mary Brice b. about 1749 no info
Priscilla Brice b. 1750 died 1758 [aged 8]
John Brice b. 1752 died 1758 [ aged 6 ]
Thomas Brice b. 1753 no info
Elizabeth Brice b. 1754 died 1755 less than 1 yrs old
Edward Brice b.1756 survived, married "Letitia" and the forbear of a great family.
William Brice b. 1757 died 1758 [aged 6 months] (thus four children died in 1758)
John Brice b.1759 [no info]
All were born at Sampford Peverell in Devon
The record held at DRO states:
Thomas Brice, Priscilla his wife, John, Edward and Susanna their sons and daughter, of Halberton 1198A-1/PO 133 1725/6
held at Devon Record Office, Sampford Peverell Parish
So John = Joan Drake had four children with names of Priscilla, Susannah, Thomas and Edward
could it be that Thomas and Priscilla are the parents of John who married Joan Drake...who in turn named children after his parents and sibs?
deb
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Looks very compelling Deb!
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Thanks Darwin! ;D
I was worried that I wasn't making sense. ::)
deb
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So would this mean that Edward, son of Alexander had the sons Thomas (m Priscilla) and Henry (m Christian), who both had sons named John, one who married Joan (Thomas' son) and one who married Dorothy (Henry's son) ?
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Hi Darwin
;D
From Will:
Henry Brice's grandfather was an Alexaner Brice, b. 1637, at Holcombe Rogus, Devon.
Henry Brice's father was an Edward Brice, b. 1656, in Uffculme, Devon
Henry Brice himself, b.1690's married Christian Rowe on 17 June 1718.
Siblings of Henry Brice (to compare with the names given to the grandchildren):
1. Thomas Brice b. 1695 married a Pricilla Bennett ...they must be the ones mention in Removal orders
2. Edward Brice b. 1701 married a Joah Bryant
3. John Brice b. 1704
4. Alexander Brice b. 1706
Yep ...
So Henry B =Christian Rowe has son John B = Dorothy Herd
and
Thomas B = Priscilla Bennett has son John B = Joan Drake
Henry and Thomas being s/o Edward
deb :)
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found these Quarter Sessions ...date looks right to possibly be about Thomas B = Priscilla
From NA
document ref. no. QS/63/1/01/002
Thos. (Thomas?) Brice.
held at DRO
Date: 1753
Not sure who this Thomas is:
from NA
ref. no. 1078/IRW/B/1440
Thomas Brice of Tiverton, Devon.
held at DRO, Estate Duty Office Wills
Date: 1822
more Quarter Sessions
ref. no. QS/63/1/02/010
John Brice.
DRO
Date: 1753
from NA ...not sure what these next two docs are about ... but I like the name! :)
ref no. 1198A-1/PO 95
Case re the settlement of Alexander Brice
DRO, Sampford Peverell Parish
Date: 1778
ref no.1198A-1/PO 94
Fragment of the examination of Alexander Brice
DRO, Sampford Peverell Parish
Date: 1778
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Hi Darwin
;D
From Will:
Henry Brice's grandfather was an Alexaner Brice, b. 1637, at Holcombe Rogus, Devon.
Henry Brice's father was an Edward Brice, b. 1656, in Uffculme, Devon
Henry Brice himself, b.1690's married Christian Rowe on 17 June 1718.
Siblings of Henry Brice (to compare with the names given to the grandchildren):
1. Thomas Brice b. 1695 married a Pricilla Bennett ...they must be the ones mention in Removal orders
2. Edward Brice b. 1701 married a Joah Bryant
3. John Brice b. 1704
4. Alexander Brice b. 1706
Yep ...
So Henry B =Christian Rowe has son John B = Dorothy Herd
and
Thomas B = Priscilla Bennett has son John B = Joan Drake
Henry and Thomas being s/o Edward
deb :)
I think you've cracked it! :)
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Hi Darwin
I wish I could get to Devon to check the records out myself ... 8)
It all seems to tally .... Hope CaptainWill gets back on soon! Wonder what he will have to say? ;D
deb
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Hi
Found a couple more things:
Not sure who this Richard may be but William s/o Dorothy Herd and JB was Captain in Southampton.
Online Document PROB 11/807
Will of Richard Brice Mariner Portsmouth, Hampshire Date: 1754
Online Document PROB 11/791
Will of Richard Brice Mariner Saint Thomas, Portsmouth, Hampshire Date: 1751
a possible marriage for Mary Brice:
"Mary Brice b. about 1749 no info, d/o Joan Drake and John B"
Mary Brice = THOMAS HATSWELL
15 MAY 1775 , Halberton
deb
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Re Children of JB and Dorothy Herd
William Brice b. 1755 in Devon - a CAPTAIN of own ship. Southhampton & Guernsey.
Sarah / Sara Brice b. 1759
Anna / ?"Nanny" Brice b. 1762
Ephraim Brice b. 1764
Richard Brice b. 1765 born Cheriton Fitzpaine. Created brickworks in Guernsey.
George Brice b. 1767
Thomas Brice b. 1770
Dorothy ("Dolly") Brice b. 1772 (married a Mr. Wood)
Austice Brice b.? (married a Mr. James)
James Brice b.? no info
John Brice b.? no info
Some you have no info for... I found all of these christenings on IGI:
JOHN BRICE 19 JUN 1752 Tiverton
ANSTIC BRICE 13 SEP 1753 ditto
JAMES BRICE 10 JAN 1755 ditto
RICHARD BRICE 15 JUL 1758 ditto
SARAH BRICE 09 SEP 1759 Cruwys-Morchard
ANNA BRICE 12 APR 1762 Cheriton Fitzpaine
EPHRAIM BRICE 06 JAN 1764 C F
RICHARD BRICE 23 SEP 1765 C F
GEORGE BRICE 25 DEC 1767 C F
THOMAS BRICE 16 APR 1770 C F
DOLLY BRICE 16 AUG 1772 C F
deb
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I wonder why I can't find Wiliam Brice, the Captain. his christening?
all the other's are Extracted Records, the only William I can find is a submitted entry for William which states William Brice of "Crews Marchett" ::)
deb
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IGI
Dolly Brice = Thomas Wood
22 DEC 1790, Tiverton
extracted
deb
added;
Dau of Thomas Wood and Dolly
Mary Wood
chr: 8 APR 1792, Tiverton
IGI extracted
added;
Dolly Wood is still living in Tiverton in 1841 ...occ Labourer, age 80 ... I really hope she didn't have to labour that much at that age! :-\
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the only William I can find is a submitted entry for William which states William Brice of "Crews Marchett" ::)
That isn't very different to how it's pronounced! :)
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Hi Darwin
It just seems strange that John and Dorothy were very good with their christenings and yet William who is bc 1755 is not in the group. There seems to be place for him between the christenings of James and Richard the 1st.
The sbmitted entry just states b 1755 dies 1814 ...no real full dates!
There are also two Richards ...I assume the first died.
deb
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Will ....
When you come back could you give us details on William Brice the Captain .. wife, kids etc etc
Thanks
Deb :)
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I am in awe of what you have been finding there Deb!
Captain Will has lots to sort through - I hope he can add some extra information that will throw some more light into this!
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Captain Will has lots to sort through - I hope he can add some extra information that will throw some more light into this!
Me too, Darwin... I am confused with Captain Will B ...not to be confused with our thread starter CaptainWill. ;D ;D
I have seen a tree that states that Capt Wiiliam B = Elizabeth James and had kids in Guernsey ...but this William married Elizabeth James in 1802 ... a bit long in the tooth for William bc 1755 to be marrying ...but then again it's possible!
deb
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The record held at DRO states:
Thomas Brice, Priscilla his wife, John, Edward and Susanna their sons and daughter, of Halberton 1198A-1/PO 133 1725/6
held at Devon Record Office, Sampford Peverell Parish
So John = Joan Drake had four children with names of Priscilla, Susannah, Thomas and Edward
could it be that Thomas and Priscilla are the parents of John who married Joan Drake...who in turn named children after his parents and sibs?
deb
Hi!
Sorry about the delay in replying, Deb and Darwin, and thanks for your input.
All in all this is very exciting for me. Thankyou very much for doing this research, Deb.
I have been checking a handwritten chart and transcribing some details.
I found that the records of Thomas Brice and Priscilla (nee Bennett) were thus:
Thomas Brice
- bapt. 17.10.1695 place unk.
- d. n/k
- married on 14.11.1719 to Priscilla Bennett
- at Sampford Peverell
- her bt. & d. not known
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- Known as "of Halberton, later of Sampford Peverell"
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- Their children were
- Edward Brice bt. 02.10.1725 at Sampford Peverell
- Joan Brice bt. 20.09.1729 at Sampford Peverell
- Thomas Brice bt. 30.01.1732 Sampford Peverell **
- Robert Brice bt. 17.09.1736 Sampford Peverell **
- Henry Brice bt. 19.11.1739 Sampford Peverell
I notice that there is a gap between the marriage of Thomas and Priscilla in 1719, and the first listed child Edward born October 1725.
This makes room for babies John and Susannah to have been born, even though they are not on this list.
As you highlighted, the Devon Record Office note that you found seemed to show a date of 1725-1726
Of the above listed children, only Edward could have been born at that time (as well as John and Susanna if they were born in that gap period).
So there would have been only John and Edward and Susanna born, which corresponds correctly with the DRO info you found:
Thomas Brice, Priscilla his wife, John, Edward and Susanna their sons and daughter, of Halberton 1198A-1/PO 133 1725/6
held at Devon Record Office, Sampford Peverell Parish
Here is a clear record of a son John and a daughter Susanna of that couple Thomas Brice and Priscilla. It was for some reason not detected by the researchers who made the chart that I have.
If they were removed, that might be the the reason.
[ While I'm on this topic, can someone tell me a bit about "removal orders"? (Perhaps point me to a thread on that if there is one already, or perhaps it would make a good thread.) ]
I am inclined thus to agree VERY MUCH with your suggestion that the John Brice who married Joan Drake probably was the son of Thomas Brice and Priscilla, the one mentioned in those Devon records, that possibly were removal orders.
This validates the family history research done by some of Dorothy Herd & John Brice's descedants in Guernsey who seemed to have a pre-existing recollection that John Brice was the 2nd son of Henry Brice and Christian Rowe and that they had confirmed this by checking baptism records in Halberton.
Along with this it shows me I am a 1st cousin x times removed from the John Brice who married Joan Drake, so I have found much more family!!!
This family can trace back to a Christopher Brice marrying a wife named Beatrice around 1530 in Holcombe Rogus with direct lineage down to the said Brices.
I will (hopefully) post more info later on that topic (the earlier & contemporary branches) when I transcribe it off that handwritten chart to which I've been referring.
Thanks again for this help in solving this quandary. I guess we can never be 100% sure but as Darwin said, it's compelling.
Will.
PS I have still to try to check some of the other things you've posted Deb, e..g the picture of ship on an account sheet of William Brice, but will get back to you on that.
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[ Editing this retrospectively: In this post I had thought Elizabeth Brice nee James had died in 1814 and her birth year to be about 1765, but please see in a later posting in this thread, Deb's discoveries & evidence to the contrary, that:
(1) Elizabeth Brice nee James did not die in 1814 as I had thoguht but was still alive at least till 1851, and
(2) Evidence is that Elizabeth's age is younger than I had thought, being born around 1776 rather than 1765..
Capt Will 17.10.2010 ]
Will ....
When you come back could you give us details on William Brice the Captain .. wife, kids etc etc
Thanks
Deb :)
Hi again Deb and Darwin.
I think Deb you have found the dates of birth of those uncertain siblings of Capt William Brice..
I too am a bit mystified. I see that James Brice among them was born in 1755. That is the same year we have for William Brice.
Could they be twins?
[Edited out my other speculation re it being alternate names since we know both they were two individuals 17.10.2010]
As for William Brice's age of marriage, it's not very old really.
William's wife Elizabeth James was also ten years younger. He was 47 when married and she was 37.
Elizabeth James was born in Devon. Her father John James was from "Lyme" in Dorset.
I note that William's sister Austice -- or "Anstic" b.1753 as it is on the note you found -- also married a man whose surname was James (see the will of John Brice in updated earlier entry), and speculate they could be of the same James family.
William Brice in the late 1700's and his brother Richard Brice went to Guernsey.
Both bought properties there about 1799. Richard bought a farm and William bought a house in St Peter Port. William operated his ship out of St Peter Port. It seems the family were significantly involved in marine matters.
William and Richard both married nurses from Devon who were working in Guernsey at Saint Sampson hospital.
Younger Richard married Mary Luscombe of Devon (married in Guernsey) in 1799, when Richard was then 34 years of age.
William, ten years older than Richard, also married a nurse, Elizabeth James, of Devon, married in Guernsey, in 1802, by which time William was 47 and Elizabeth was 37.
William had three sons, Richard had two sons and one daughter.
Interestingly both William Brice and his wife Elizabeth James died in 1814, according to my records, and so I presume this was some calamity. He was 59 and she was 49.
[[ Capt Will edits: the above is now shown to be incorrect. ]]
When William and his wife died, at least one of the boys, the middle one, was under the legal guardianship of their uncle Richard. One could surmise they came under the same roof.
William's 2nd son John James Brice, b.1807, married his first cousin, Maria Brice, b.1810, the only daughter & third child of his uncle Richard Brice who was his guardian.
John James Brice and Maria had four children, and in 1850 they all migrated in the ship the 'Posthumous' to Port Adelaide, South Australia.
[ Editing: I clarify that this is based on identifying a family Mr Bruce and wife and four children" on that ship, and the supposition that it is a misprint. After extensive search finding no trace, yet with collaborative confirmation of their migration that year, this fits and I feel confident it is correct (it was a misprint: it was Mr Brice and wife and four children).]
The book 'Guernsey Emigrants to Australia 1828-1899" by David Kreckler also mentions briefly the migration of John James Brice, his wife Maria, and four children in 1850, but that author did not discover the ship. However a cousin of mine recently found it.
They joined the gold rush that started in Victoria in 1852 (2 yrs after emigrating - good timing) and had a hill named after them "Brice's Hill" in the Victorian goldfields in the 1850's.
Various of the other descendants of the two brothers William and Richard Brice were involved in work related to the port and shipping.
Richard's first son (William, b.1801) married Charlotte Grut of the Channel Islands. One of their sons was a James Grut Brice who was an able seaman and did lots of voyages (found them on ship crew lists) such as to Rio and India and including Melbourne, Australia, in the 1850's.
Capt William Brice's 1st son William Henry Brice married Elizabeth Duckham in 1825. They had at least 9 children.
One of their children was Frederick James Brice who was the harbourmaster in St Peter Port in Guernsey.
One of his sons, John Symons Brice, b. 1861, was evidently drowned while working on the Brig Flossie of Guernsey, fell from the maintopsail on March 27, 1879.
Another of the sons, Edwin Brice, co-signed the greffier's notebook along with another Mate.
A grandson of the harbourmaster, Walter Brice born around 1870, in the Channel Islands, roughly seems to fit with possibly being the same Walter Brice who was an a crew member on the Titanic in 1912, a survivor whose interview at the Senate enquiry can be googled, and is quite interesting. This is just my speculation.
Will post this then think about some more.
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Hi Will
Nice to see you back. I need time to digest all this wonderful info!
BTW ... I have DUCKHAMs from Tiverton in my family. Unfortunately I do not have an Elizabeth who married a Brice :-\
deb
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Just looking around at the Guernsey censuses :)
found this in 1841 ... not sure who Elizabeth would be;
1841
St Peters Port
Richard BRICE 75 ind, b E(ngland)
ELIZABETH Brice 60, ind, b E
John Brice 30 farmer ... s/o William and Elizabeth
Maria Brice 35 ...d/o Richard and Mary
Lydia Brice 3
Maria Brice 1
then in 1851 we find:
Doyle Cottage
Richard F Brice 42 customs dept boatman b St PP
Jane C wife 39 b England
ELIZABETH BRICE, MOTHER, 74 , WIDOW, b England
Robert T son 11 months
plus a servant
now Richard Frederick Brice is the s/o William Brice and Elizabeth James .... you say Elizabeth died in 1814 as did William, The Captain, but according to 1851 Elizabeth, R F B's mother is still alive.
deb
added ... so it could be that Elizabeth in 1841, is the mother of John and Richard's sister-in-law. Maybe it was Richard's wife Mary who died in 1814?
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hi again
Re; Removal Orders;
The record held at DRO states:
Thomas Brice, Priscilla his wife, John, Edward and Susanna their sons and daughter, of Halberton 1198A-1/PO 133 1725/6
held at Devon Record Office, Sampford Peverell Parish
It would seem that Thomas and Family moved to Sampford Peverell but were sent back to Halberton.
meaning of Removal Orders;
If you did not receive a Settlement Certificate, one of two things could happen. You could stay if your original parish ("parish of settlement") agreed to pay a fee, usually quarterly, to sustain you in your new parish. If not, you would receive a Removal Order, sometimes accompanied by a written pass to the parish of settlement showing the route you must follow. Your parish of settlement was obliged to take you back.
http://www.witheridge-historical-archive.com/poor-4.htm
It has also been discussed here at RC ..see this thread
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?PHPSESSID=3b4ai3nmd846aoi00a2drc9rh1&topic=438373.0
deb :)
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I wonder if this link would help.
http://sampfordpeverellsociety.com/default.aspx
They hold the Parish Records for:
Burials
Marriages
Apprentice indentures
Bastardy orders, removal orders etc.
Accounts of the Overseers of the Poor
deb
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hi again
Quick question:
Where did you get the info that William, the Captain was 47 and Elizabeth James was 37 when they married in 1802?
deb
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Hi Will
Going on the info from the Guernsey censuses it looks like maybe some birth dates may have been incorrect unless Elizabeth Brice nee James may have been telling fibs .
If Elizabeth Brice nee James was actually born 1777 and she was 10 years younger than William that would make him bc 1767 …which is close to the same year the 2nd Richard was christened… what if the Parish Records were in error and that Richard is actually William.
(see reply # 21: RICHARD BRICE 23 SEP 1765 C F )
We know that Richard Frederick Brice was bc 1809 to William Brice and Elizabeth James ….. Richard Frederick married Jane Catherine Thorp in 1848 and had two children :
Robert Thorp BRICE 1850
Frederick Robert BRICE 1851
We see RFB and Jane C (nee Thorp) in 1851 with Robert T Brice (11 months old) with his mother ELIZABETH aged 74 ..bc 1777
In 1861 Jane (42) is still married and at home with Robert T Brice, 10 and Fred R Brice 9 (sons) living at Doyle Cottage … Alfred Thorp her brother is living with her. It seems that Richard Frederick Brice her husband is not at home.
what do you think?
deb
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more
According to IGI there are only 2 Elizabeth James born to a father with the name John
Elizabeth James d/o John and Sarah
19 FEB 1776 , Shobrooke
could she be the wife of William Brice as seen in the 1851 Guernsey census?
and
Elizabeth James d/o John and Agness
22 MAR 1767, Uffculme, Devon
I think Shobrooke is closer to Tiverton than Uffcombe ... I may be mistaken though. A lot of my Duckhams were from Shobrooke as well!
deb
deb
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Thanks Deb, you've given me a lot of info to work on amongst all these things you've found.
You've clarified another error in my existing info re Elizabeth James, so it's great to get that straight.
As you observed, the of death of Elizabeth James was not 1814 but she was still alive in 1851.
As to where I got my information from, there is a family tree on wc.rootsweb.ancestry.com labelled as "CALLAWAY~STURDEVANT & Allied Families", where if one searches the Brice branch of the family, one finds that information (citing Elizabeth Brice nee James as having died in 1814.
My info about the ages of William and Elizabeth at time of marriage was simply a calculation based on that info.
(Thus please ignore that line of thought re William being 10 years older than Elizabeth... .)
On the other hand, in view of Elizabeth James' cited age of 74 years, in the 1851 census, that you have astutely noticed,
... then in 1851 we find:
Doyle Cottage
Richard F Brice 42 customs dept boatman b St PP
Jane C wife 39 b England
ELIZABETH BRICE, MOTHER, 74 , WIDOW, b England
Robert T son 11 months
plus a servant
it seems we must deduce she was born in 1776 or 1777...
It fits with the record you found on IGI.
... According to IGI there are only 2 Elizabeth James born to a father with the name John
Elizabeth James d/o John and Sarah
19 FEB 1776 , Shobrooke
could she be the wife of William Brice as seen in the 1851 Guernsey census? ...
But as for the speculation that William and Richard were the same person, it's countered by the account of a local Guernsey person (also a descendant of Capt William Brice) who wrote a letter in 1988 to someone in Australia.
See next post for that, this one was too big when I tried to include it so I'll separate the posts.
Thanks again so much for all your work Deb and your input too Darwin.
BY THE WAY, I have updated earlier posts today (which explains part of my tardiness today) and added details in my 2nd posting in this thread regarding the will of John Brice, and some minor editing changes to other posts.
Please check out the post where I talked about the will of John Brice and see some transcribed info.
see next post for continuation re the relationship between the two brothers William and Richard on Guernsey.
Will.
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Hi again Deb, continuing with replying to some things.
Deb Sat. at 22:52:26
If Elizabeth Brice nee James was actually born 1777 and she was 10 years younger than William that would make him bc 1767 …which is close to the same year the 2nd Richard was christened… what if the Parish Records were in error and that Richard is actually William.
Well as for them being the same person, there is too much support for William and Richard being different people, firstly the will of John Brice (see my updated transcribed info in the earlier post - see post #3), and secondly other records from Guernsey. See this note on a rootsweb famliy tree
rootsweb:
Compiled in 1917 by John James and Albert Henry Brice from records at St. Peter Port Church from the year 1799, and the Greffe Office from 1840, and from Contracts, Billes de Partage and old family records. It would appear that two brothers, William and Richard Brice arrived in Guernsey from Cruwys Morchard in the county of Devon at some time prior to 1798. The first documentary evidence is contained in a contract dated 28th July 1798, registered 23rd November 1798, when William Brice purchased a house in Cornet Street from the Rev Jean Charles Bernet and wife. N.B. William Brice in this contract and in other places is described as belonging to Southampton, but no doubt originated from Cruwys Morchard. The proof that William was brother to Richard is contained in a Bille de Partage dated 8th December 1830, where the said Richard is described as uncle and guardian to William?s youngest child. This Bille de Partage was not passed before the court, nor registered, but was signed by the contracting parties. Further both William and Richard are described as sons of John of Cruwys Morchard and sometimes of Southampton, see register of marriages at St. Peter Port Church, Richard 1799, William 1802. William Brice was admitted as inhabitant of St. Peter Port as per Act of Court dated 27th April 1799.
As for who is the Elizabeth Brice in the 1841 census, I can't see that it could be anyone but Elizabeth James, but her age is simply incorrect.
It should be 64, not 60, and that puts her right for the 1851 census at 74 yrs.
You mentioned
1841
St Peters Port
Richard BRICE 75 ind, b E(ngland)
ELIZABETH Brice 60, ind, b E
John Brice 30 farmer ... s/o William and Elizabeth
Maria Brice 35 ...d/o Richard and Mary
Lydia Brice 3
Maria Brice 1
[ .... ]
.... added ... so it could be that Elizabeth in 1841, is the mother of John and Richard's sister-in-law. Maybe it was Richard's wife Mary who died in 1814?
Yes, but they are one and the same person as Elizabeth James. Elizabeth Brice (nee James) certainly is the mother of John (John James Brice) and she actually is the sister in law of Richard, being the widow of his late brother William who died 1814..
Unless I am not understanding who you are referring to. But this makes her one and the same person as the Elizabeth in the 1851 census.
I have the impression and different evidence points to it, as the above document, that after William Brice died in 1814 his son John James Brice b.1807 who was then 7 yrs old was under guardianship of Richard Brice his uncle. I get the impression he simply moved to their home. Of course that is speculative.
But evidently he is living there in his uncle Richard's house together with his wife Maria and his two children, having married Maria in 1837.
Their ages are both wrong in the census, but their descriptions are not really mistakable, and the childrens' ages are right. See later post about that, as there is not enough room in this post.
At least we can say that John and Maria's ages being incorrect is consistent with Elizabeth's age being wrong also! (Obviously something was amiss there.)
Once again Deb my post is too big so I'm breaking it up again. I have to learn to talk less and more succinctly like you and Darwin. I guess this is experience.
see you in next post,
more interesting info.
Will.
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Hi again Deb, post #3
The author of this letter is the granddaughter of Maria Emma Brice b.1833 the daughter of William Henry Brice and Elizabeth DUCKHAM.
This is on the Martel-De Smidt tree mentioned above.
rootsweb:
Excerpts from a letter from ... St. Sampson, Guernsey written July, 1988....
"I am related to the BRICE family you mention.
Richard BRICE (Farmer) came to Guernsey with his eldest brother, William ( Sea Captain) around 1798. William traded here with his own ship. They both bought property in St. Peter Port. William, a house in Cornet Street and Richard, a farm in Ruette Braye which still stands and is lived in.
Richard's daughter, Maria, married her cousin John James BRICE, 2nd son of William and Elizabeth BRICE in 1837.
My Great Great Grandfather was William BRICE, born 1755 (Richard's brother). They originally came from Cheriton Fitzpaine in Devon, England, where all the family were baptized.
William's eldest son, William Henry, married Elizabeth DUCKHAM in Tiverton, Devon, England in 1825, and their daughter, Maria, born 1833 was named after her Aunt Maria, and was my Grandmother, whose headstone is in the Vale Cemetery.
We have researched the family history and all these figures are authentic.
William and Richard both married nurses at our Town Church. Mary LUSCOMBE, Richard's wife and Elizabeth JAMES, William's wife, came from Devon andwere nurses at our Town Hospital.
The records of their marriages are at our Town Church. Richard married Mary LUSCOMBE in 1799, and William married Elizabeth JAMES in 1802.
Other brothers and sisters were:
Anna born 1762 Ephraim 1764 George 1767 Thomas 1770 Dolly 1772
They were the children of John BRICE and Dorothy HERD.
We discovered the baptism of John BRICE in 1722 at Halberton Parish Church near Tiverton, Devon, England. He was the second son of Henry BRICE and Christian ROWE."
So there is also a little bit more about a daughter of Elizabeth Duckham there, too... something we would never know except for these hand-me-down pieces of info, i.e. that one of her children, Maria Emma Brice b.1833 was named after Maria Brice, wife of John James Brice.
Various childen of Richard Brice and Mary Luscombe were named after the Luscombe side of the family with a mddle name Luscombe.
Richard and Mary's first son William Brice b.1801 in Guernsey, who married (in Guernsey) Martha Charlotte Grut b. abt 1801 in Guernsey, had a son called William Luscombe Brice b.1828, and a daughter called Mary Luscombe Brice b.1834.
Likewise John James Brice, married to Richard Brice and Mary Luscombe's daughter Maria, named his fourth child and second son, Richard Luscombe Brice.
Richard and Mary also had a son Richard Brice b.1803 but I don't have any info on him. That would be nice to find.
To add just one little thing to this, I have a Luscombe descendant in Australia in (very infrequent) email contact who told me a very little snippet Mary Luscombe (not sure of sources)
"Mary LUSCOMBE was born in the Parish of Harde, Devon, England.."
Have to go off to work night shift now, but who knows, I might still keep posting through the night.
see you next post,
Will.
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Hi Will
My post regarding Elizabeth Brice nee James was a bit confusing. I was a little put off by the ages in the 1841 census at first but also concluded that Elizabeth in 1841 and 1851 was one and the same person.
Thanks for the info relating to the Will of John Brice. Were the children mentioned in that order?
we have these christenings from IGI
JOHN BRICE 19 JUN 1752 Tiverton
ANSTIC BRICE 13 SEP 1753 ditto
JAMES BRICE 10 JAN 1755 ditto
RICHARD BRICE 15 JUL 1758 ditto
SARAH BRICE 09 SEP 1759 Cruwys-Morchard
ANNA BRICE 12 APR 1762 Cheriton Fitzpaine
EPHRAIM BRICE 06 JAN 1764 C F
RICHARD BRICE 23 SEP 1765 C F
GEORGE BRICE 25 DEC 1767 C F
THOMAS BRICE 16 APR 1770 C F
DOLLY BRICE 16 AUG 1772 C F
and the Will states:
John Brice-- Fifty five Pounds -
Ephraim Brice Thirty Pounds
James ditto
Thomas Thirty Five Pounds
Richard ditto
William Forty Pounds
Anstice/Austice James ditto
Sarah Brice Thirty Pounds
Nanny Brice Thirty Five Pounds
Dorothy Wood Thirty Pounds
Going by the amount which was given it seems the eldest received the most with the amount decreasing.
ie:
John 55 pounds
Austice and William 40 each
Thomas , Richard and Nanny 35 each
Ephraim, James, Sarah and Dorothy 30 each
So it does look like William was the 3rd child .... but where is his christening?
deb
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Hi
Re;"Richard and Mary also had a son Richard Brice b.1803 but I don't have any info on him. That would be nice to find."
I can't find anything on him in Guernsey. I did, however, see this person on a passenger list. The DOB is out but his ocupation fits with that of Richard snr, the farmer.
Richard Brice
arrived: 12 Jun 1848, Philadelphia
40 years old
leaving; Great Britain and Ireland
Occ:Farmer
going to USA on the ship "William Penn"
There is another Richard Brice on the same ship aged 11
deb :-\
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Glad you're still here Deb,
Thanks for the info relating to the Will of John Brice. Were the children mentioned in that order?
Yes, I transcribed it exactly as on the sheet.
Something just occurred to me, however, that I did notice before but didn't pay attention to:
There is one name missing off the will, that is present both on the rootsweb posts cited in my above postings, and the christenings you found on IGI. and that is George Brice b. 1767.
George is missing, so if he had died by that time or disappeared off the scene, that explains that, but what if he was also known as William.
A George who liked to go by the name of Captain Will to his friends? How could we explore that?
In your IGI christenings...
JOHN BRICE 19 JUN 1752 Tiverton
ANSTIC BRICE 13 SEP 1753 ditto
JAMES BRICE 10 JAN 1755 ditto
RICHARD BRICE 15 JUL 1758 ditto
SARAH BRICE 09 SEP 1759 Cruwys-Morchard
ANNA BRICE 12 APR 1762 Cheriton Fitzpaine
EPHRAIM BRICE 06 JAN 1764 C F
RICHARD BRICE 23 SEP 1765 C F
GEORGE BRICE 25 DEC 1767 C F
THOMAS BRICE 16 APR 1770 C F
DOLLY BRICE 16 AUG 1772 C F
George is there, born Christmas Day 1767, but no William..
But in the will....
John Brice-- Fifty five Pounds -
Ephraim Brice Thirty Pounds
James ditto
Thomas Thirty Five Pounds
Richard ditto
William Forty Pounds
Anstice/Austice James ditto
Sarah Brice Thirty Pounds
Nanny Brice Thirty Five Pounds
Dorothy Wood Thirty Pounds
William is there, but no mention of George!
Just thought I'd throw that thought in.
Will.
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More puzzles for you to think about Deb:
Going by the amount which was given it seems the eldest received the most with the amount decreasing.
In fact the amount of pounds inherited is partly, but not totally congruent with their ages:
[WILLIAM BRICE ? ] -? 40 pounds = equal 2nd highest amount
JOHN BRICE 1752 1st oldest 55 pounds = 1st highest amount
ANSTICE BRICE 1753 2nd eldest 40 pounds = equal 2nd highest amount
JAMES BRICE 1755 3rd eldest 30 pounds = equal 4th highest amount
RICHARD BRICE 1758 [deceased]
SARAH BRICE 1759 4th eldest 30 pounds = equal 4th highest amount
ANNA BRICE 1762 5th eldest 35 pounds = equal 3rd highest amount
EPHRAIM BRICE 1764 6th eldest 30 pounds = equal 4th highest amount
RICHARD BRICE 1765 7th eldest 35 pounds = equal 3rd highest amount
GEORGE BRICE 1767 8th eldest not mentioned in will.
THOMAS BRICE 1770 9th eldest 35 pounds = equal 3rd highest amount
DOLLY BRICE 1772 10th eldest 30 pounds = equal equal 4th highest amount
Yes, there is some weight of favour towards the slightly elder John Brice and Anstice James (nee Brice) but for the others (whose dates of birth we know) it is inconsistent with age.
One thing that has come out from what you have found is that William's wife Elizabeth James was obviously only 26 years old when they married in 1802, not the much older 37 as I had thought.
So it makes me wonder about William's age.
By my calculations Elizabeth would have been 22 then when William came and bought a house in Cornet Street, St Peter Port, Guernsey in 1798.
If he had already owned his ship and been a sea captain and started trading from Guernsey at that time, what age could one realistically estimate him to be. At minimum he'd be expected to be in his 30's.
If William Brice is an alternate name for George Brice then he is born in 1767 and that would make him 9 years older than Elizaeth.
If it's true that William is different to George, and if he was born in 1755 as the Guernsey folk who are his descendants think, then he must have been a twin brother of James Brice.
But if so, then he is 22 years older than his wife Elizabeth who is born we now suppose in 1776.
There is also the fact that he died in 1814, at which point (my calculations again) Elizabeth would have been 38 yrs of age. This is only circumstantial but it supports pointing to the age difference being abnormally great.
This could also have accounted for Elizabeth's age being a bit of a mystery, or perhaps for both of their ages being a mystery ... a matter not talked about perhaps.
While I am on this topic Deb, there has always been some inconsistencies in the age given of John James Brice's wife Maria Brice, daughter of his uncle Richard Brice.
On the rootsweb genealogy lists cited, she is born in 1810, thus 3 years younger than John.
But in Victoria, Australia, when she died in 1861, the official records say she is "60 years of age". Something wrong here!
If she was born in 1810, she would have been 50 or 51, not 60.
Other records published in the newspapers (e.g. when their children got married) also show wildly incorrect ages for their four children (i.e. the ages given of the spouse's other siblings). But that is only newspaper articles, so that is probably not so significant.
So it is possible it was just a simple, typical journalistic error.
But, would it be possible, I have often wondered, that Maria Brice was older than John James Brice -- perhaps born in 1800, being 7 yrs older than him?
Another small anomaly in certain accounts I have seen referring to Maria Brice in Victoria, I recall seeing it written "Maria Brice -- maiden name not known", at a time when the family (children) were still alive and accessible -- so it seemed to me that perhaps there may have been a deliberate omission of the fact that they were cousins.
Again, just circumstantial.
Nevertheless when I saw the strange info about John and Maria's ages in the the 1841 census in your posting, I was not surprised.
1841
St Peters Port
Richard BRICE 75 ind, b E(ngland)
ELIZABETH Brice 60, ind, b E
John Brice 30 farmer ... s/o William and Elizabeth
Maria Brice 35 ...d/o Richard and Mary
Lydia Brice 3
Maria Brice 1
In fact in 1841 John was 34 not 30, and Maria Brice should have been 31 in 1841, not 35, and as we have seen, Elizabeth should be 64, not 60.
Likewise re your second post just now about Richard Brice b.1803 2nd son of Richard and Mary, whether or not he could be the one mentioned as 40 yrs old on a ship to America in 1848, all these age errors seem to make it more likely to be possible. But there were many Richard Brices around in Devon, it was one of the classic names of this family all the way back.
More work for Sherlock Holmes here!
Looking forward to your comments and meanwhile I'll make even more comments.
Will.
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If Elizabeth Brice nee James was actually born 1777 and she was 10 years younger than William that would make him bc 1767 …which is close to the same year the 2nd Richard was christened… what if the Parish Records were in error and that Richard is actually William.
(see reply # 21: RICHARD BRICE 23 SEP 1765 C F )
Going from him maybe only be 10 years older than Elizabeth then he would definitely fit in with George's christening.
GEORGE BRICE 1767 8th eldest not mentioned in will.
will investigate
wobbly sceen
deb
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Another bit of Duckham family info,
My notes say that Elizabeth Duckham, who married William Henry Brice in 1825, had a brother John Duckham, and their father was James Duckham.
William Henry Brice was of course the 1st son of Captain William Brice = Elizabeth James
William Henry Brice married Elizabeth Duckham in Tiverton, and all of their children, at least from the 2nd child to the 10th, were born in Tiverton.
However interestingly when they were older the children were to be found in Guernsey.
I assume also that William Henry Brice would have been born in Guernsey, just as I presume the other two brothers John James Brice and Richard Frederick Brice, who married Jane Thorp, would have been.
Just thinking about what happened in 1814 when their father died, I assume John James Brice was taken in my his uncle Richard as guardian and he lived at their house, and stayed there apparently even after he was married.
It would seem possible that the older brother William Henry Brice might have been sent to Devon to be looked after by one of the other Brice relatives. But this is speculation.
However he married there and was reasonably young (21 yrs) and Elizabeth Duckham was 20 yrs of age in 1825.
At least 9 of their children were born in Tiverton, at least from the 2nd, Frederick James Brice b. 1827 in Tiverton, to the 10th Alfred Thomas Brice b.1849 in Tiverton.
However as stated many of their children were later living in and died in the Channel Islands, so one gets the impression the whole family drifted back there while some of them were still growing up.
E.g.
Their eldest son, Frederick James Brice b.1827, became a Harbourmaster in the Channel Islands. One will find mention of him in books-google searches in books pertaining to Guernsey if one searches.
Another of their sons, William Henry Brice jnr b. 1831 likewise was living in Guernsey in 1881
Their daughter Maria Emma Brice b. 1833 lived there too, and died in Guernsey, she is the grandmother of the person who wrote letter to Australia which I cited in my earlier post.
Another son, John James Brice b.1836 (a different one) was married in Guernsey so was probably living there.
Another son, Richard Cox Brice b. 1838 was living in Guernsey in 1881.
As for the third son of Captain William Brice and Elizabeth James, Richard Frederick Brice b.1809, he stayed in Guernsey it seems and married Jane Catherine Thorp in St Peter Port.
As you noted, he was "not at home" in 1861, but also you found he was a 'boatman' in 1851
Richard F Brice 42 customs dept boatman b St PP
and so he may well have been "at sea".
You found the remaining Brices living with his household in that year.
That is because in 1850, the previous year, John James Brice, and Maria, and their four children, Lydia, Maria, Richard-Luscombe, and John, all sailed to Port Adelaide, South Australia.
- Will.
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Hi Will
Where did the "Posthumous" set sail from? I still cannot see John, Maria and kids on a passenger list.
IGI has submitted enties for their children;
Lydia 1839
Maria 1841
Richard Luscombe 1843
no sign of a son John.
re William Henry Brice and Elizabeth Duckham
In 1841
Tiverton
William BRICE 35
Elizabeth 30
Frederick 14
William 10
Maria 8
John 5
Richard 3
ALL Born in County
Their 10 children are on IGI, submtted of course, saying tey were CHRISTENED in Tiverton
But then I think I have them in 1851 in Guernsey, where all the children are stated as being b Guernsey.
I need to look around more to make sure I have the corrct 1851 g=family.
deb
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Hi Will
Where did the "Posthumous" set sail from? I still cannot see John, Maria and kids on a passenger list.
No, you won't find it but you will find somewhere a John Bruce, wife and four children in 1850.
We looked for a John Brice and even the author of the book I mentioned earlier (that includes mention of the migration of John and Maria Brice and the names of the four children) stated that he had been unable to find a record of the ship voyage.
But a cousin found this John Bruce and wife and four children which fits the destination, year of travel, etc and we believe it was a misprint on the source record, spelling it Bruce instead of Brice.
I don't have the source URL at hand as it was in a file sent to me by my cousin, but I transcribed the info thus:
- The ship went from London on 28th May 1850, going via Plymouth.
- (the Brices would most likely have got on at Plymouth, close to their traditional home family base.)
- The ship departed from Plymouth on 5th June 1850.
- It arrived at Port Adelaide on 8th September 1850.
-
- One of the passengers on the ship was John Morgan who accidentally drowned after falling from the rigging.
-
- The captain of the ship was Captain Rbt Davidson (? Robert Davidson.)
- IN the cabin accommodation was Dr. Dummy and his two sons.
- In the another cabin was Mrs Gregory,
- and in another was Mr. Higgs, and his wife Mrs Higgs.
-
- In the 'steerage' passenger section were.
-
- Miss Ambrose
- Mrs Ambrose (I would guess, the mother of the above)
- "Mr Bruce, and wife and 4 children"
- J. Coleman
- Mrs Cook and her four children.
- J. Cox
- Mr Craddock.
- Thomas Crisp.
- T. and J. Daintz
- M. Dugal.
- J. Dunstall
- Mr. Evans.
- Mr F. Fatchell
- J. Flavell
- Mr. Graham and wife
- Robert Harris
- Mr John Morgan
- W. Page
- J. Panther and wife and six children.
- Mr Papps and wife and six children.
- Mr Parker and two children.
- W. Patchell
- J. Patterson
- Mr. Pellen and wife.
- Mr Pepper and wife and three children.
- Mr. Seabrook.
- H. and C. Webb.
-
Of course it's open to debate.
But in any case it is certainly JJBrice and his wife and four children did sail from England to Port Adelaide in that year. There is official record of their having arrived that year through information at Maria Brice's death, and other records detail various milestones of their lives in South Australia, Victoria and other states.
But there is no record of the voyage itself.
We had thought there must be some record of it and concluded most likely it was due to some transcription error or some such reason.
What do you think?
Will.
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Hi Deb,
I'm not exactly sure what is the origin of "submitted" entries as opposed to extracted. I suppose they are given by the public but not from original documents, is that the difference?
IGI has submitted enties for their children;
Lydia 1839
Maria 1841
Richard Luscombe 1843
no sign of a son John.
These are more accurate dates:
Lydia Brice b. 30.04.1838
Maria Brice b. 1840
John Brice b. 1841
Richard Luscombe Brice b. 1843
I am not sure where we got these from, so hold the exact dates in suspended uncertaintly.
That Lydia was born in 1838 and Maria Brice was born in 1840 is evident from the 1841 census you showed me earlier where Lydia is 3 years old and Maria is 1 year old.
And John and Richard's year of birth is evident from their ages at their deaths.
1841
St Peters Port
Richard BRICE 75 ind, b E(ngland)
ELIZABETH Brice 60, ind, b E
John Brice 30 farmer ... s/o William and Elizabeth
Maria Brice 35 ...d/o Richard and Mary
Lydia Brice 3
Maria Brice 1
I don't know why John isn't on that list you found on IGI.
There must be some good reason.
We thought he might have been born on the mainland (England) and searched. There were a few John Brices. He would have to have been born between March 1840 and March 1841.
So we have a few mysteries, still, Deb:
1. the birth of Capt William Brice..
2. the birth record of his grandson John Brice son of John James Brice
3. and also, now that we know Joan Drake's husband John Brice was the son of Thomas Brice and Priscilla Bennett, it would be good to find where and when he was born.
Got to get back to work. Thanks for your continuing contributions here Deb. I still have a big Brice project that I will ask you about later.
Will.
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Hi Will
Sorry for the delay in getting back to you.
Re: The children of William Henry Brice and Elizabeth Duckham;
As I mentioned before their christenings have been submitted to IGI (yes, you are spot on re; The difference between extracted and Submitted) ... the strange thing is , is that I cannot find any birth registrations of them in Devon :-\ Maybe some of them were born in Guernsey but taken back to Tiverton to be christened.
These are children of WHB and ED chr: in Tiverton…only one extracted entry!
Elizabeth BRICE 1826
Frederick James BRICE 1828
William Henry BRICE 1831
Maria Emma BRICE – 1833
JOHN JAMES BRICE born 11 FEB 1836 Newport Street Particular Baptist, Tiverton (extracted) s/o William Henry Brice and Elizabeth Duckham
There is another Extacted for a John James Brice s/o William Brice and Elizabeth
Born; 12 FEB 1836
Chr 7 MAR 1836 Wesleyan Methodist Chapel, Tiverton
Richard Cox BRICE 1838
Walter BRICE 1842
Charlotte BRICE 1845
Edwin Charles BRICE 1847
Alfred Thomas BRICE 1849
deb
-
Hi again
Hi Will
Re:
So we have a few mysteries, still, Deb:
1. the birth of Capt William Brice..
2. the birth record of his grandson John Brice son of John James Brice
3. and also, now that we know Joan Drake's husband John Brice was the son of Thomas Brice and Priscilla Bennett, it would be good to find where and when he was born.
I couldn’t find a Chr for John in Devon, I did, however, find this interesting extracted record
IGI
JOHN BRISE
11 NOV 1711, Nonington, Kent
Father THOMAS BRISE OR BRICE
Mother BENT OR BENNET
deb
-
Found some details tha you may or may not have ...
children of Edward Brice b 1656, in Uffculme
Henry Brice b 1690 = Christian Rowe
Thomas Brice b. 1695 married a Pricilla Bennett (can’t find the marriage)
Edward Brice b. 1701 married a Joah Bryant
John Brice b. 1704
Alexander Brice b. 1706
IGI Extracted
ALEXANDER BRICE
Born 7 MAY 1706
Chr MAY 1706, Halberton
JOHN BRICE
Chr 17 APR 1704 Halberton,
Possible marriage, submitted entry
John to Mary Ching
9 JUN 1728, Tiverton
EDWARD BRICE
Born 15 DEC 1701
Chr 27 DEC 1701 Halberton
Marriage:
Edward to Joan Bryant
25 JAN 1726, Tiverton
Extracted IGI
-
Re:
William Henry Brice and Elizabeth Duckham
We have them in 1841
1851
31 Horn Street, St P P
William Brice head, mar, 47, butcher’s labourere b England
Eliza wife, 46 b England
William son, 16, grocer’s apprentice b GUERNSEY
Maria dau 17, at home b ditto
Richard son, 12, poulter’s apprentice b Ditto
Walter son , 10 scholar, b Ditto St P P
Charlotte dau, 7 at home b Ditto
John son, 14, market porter, b Ditto
Charles son, home, 11 b Ditto………………. Not sure who he is?
Edwin son, 4, b ditto
1861
31 Cornet Street St PP
William H Brice head mar, 30 ( ::) ), porter b GUERNSEY, St PP
Elizabeth wife 29, b ditto
Richard C, brother, 22, seaman b ditto
Walter brother, 19 shoe maker, b ditto
Edward (should be Edwin) brother, 14 errand boy, b ditto
Charlotte L sister, 16, b ditto
In 1871 Walter Brice (29 b St PP) is still at 31 Cornet street, as a shoemaker. The house is headed by a John COX.
By 1881 Walter is still a shoemaker living at 17 Park St.
1891 transcribed as Waller Brice ... shoemaker at Back street St PP
In 1901 Walter is in Plymouth, Charles, at 10 Moon street aged 59 and is still a shoe maker with his own account
Walter it seems died in Dec q 1906 at the age of 64.
Plymouth, vol 5b pgg 160
will follow up with the others
wobbly screen
deb
-
re:
the birth record of his grandson John Brice son of John James Brice
still can't find a birth but have his death:
Jno Brice
died Mooroopna, Victoria, age 72
dad= Brice Jno Jas
RegYear: 1913, Victoria
John James Brice died; 1871, Victoria, age 64
parents: William and Elizabeth
(Maria, his wife, died 1861)
-
Re Edwin Charles Brice b 1847 s/o William Henry Brice and Elizabeth Duckham, Grson of Capt. William Brice and Elizabeth James
1881
Essex
West Ham
5 Lower Grey st
Edwin C Brice head mar , 34, packer (confectionary), b Guernsey
Nancy M O wife, 24 b ditto
Charles E son, 7 b ditto
Clifford J son, 2 b ditto
Death
Edwin Charles Brice aged 40
Dec q 1887
Billercay, Essex
Vol 4a pg 201
In 1891 Nancy Mary Brice(34, wid b Alderney) is a nurse for Elizabeth Ann Richardson, an 84 year old paralysed spinster, living at Park Cottages, St PP
Nancy could possibly be Nancy M OLLIVIER b 1857 Alderney who is living with her parents and siblings in St PP in 1871
Aaahhhh haaaaa
1891
St PP
Rozel/Royal? Cottage
John Ollivier 61 joiner C b St PP
Nancy wife 58 laundress b st PP
CHARLES BRICE grandson 17 apprentice joiner C ,b St PP
CLIFFORD BRICE ditto, 12 scholar b ST PP
EVA BRICE granddau, 11, b St PP
1901
Collings Rd St PP
Charles E Brice mar, 27, House carpenter, b St PP
Louisa wife 27, ironer, own account, b St Sampson
Clifford J Brice boarder, 22, Nursery, gardener, b St PP
In 1901 Eva E Brice, 21, dom servant is still living with her grandparents John L Ollivier (71, joiner/wood/carpenter) and Nancy E Ollivier, 69.
Was Trying to figure out Eva Brice and her DOB … It seems she was left behind with her Ollivier Grandparents in the 1881 census,
Deb
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Hi Deb,
You're doing some good research into the descendants of William Brice and Elizabeth Duckham...
Re:
William Henry Brice and Elizabeth Duckham
1851
31 Horn Street, St P P
William Brice head, mar, 47, butcher’s labourere b England
Eliza wife, 46 b England
William son, 16, grocer’s apprentice b GUERNSEY
Maria dau 17, at home b ditto
Richard son, 12, poulter’s apprentice b Ditto
Walter son , 10 scholar, b Ditto St P P
Charlotte dau, 7 at home b Ditto
John son, 14, market porter, b Ditto
Charles son, home, 11 b Ditto………………. Not sure who he is?
Edwin son, 4, b ditto
1861
31 Cornet Street St PP
William H Brice head mar, 30 ( ::) ), porter b GUERNSEY, St PP
Elizabeth wife 29, b ditto
Richard C, brother, 22, seaman b ditto
Walter brother, 19 shoe maker, b ditto
Edward (should be Edwin) brother, 14 errand boy, b ditto
Charlotte L sister, 16, b ditto
In 1871 Walter Brice (29 b St PP) is still at 31 Cornet street, as a shoemaker. The house is headed by a John COX.
By 1881 Walter is still a shoemaker living at 17 Park St.
1891 transcribed as Waller Brice ... shoemaker at Back street St PP
In 1901 Walter is in Plymouth, Charles, at 10 Moon street aged 59 and is still a shoe maker with his own account
From the Martel tree mentioned earlier, on rootsweb,
they say
Henry Brice = Eliz Duckham's children are thus:
1. Elizabeth b.1826
- died as infant
2. Frederick James Brice b.1827
- was harbourmaster
- married Ann Elizabeth Cutler (a.k.a. Elizabeth Ann Cutler
- a.k.a. "Liz Cotter")
- they had son John Symons Brice - sailor - died by accident at sea.
- another son Austen Robert Anderson Brice
became Mayor of Rockport, Texas
- another son Edwin Ted Brice married a Emma Ling
-
3. William Henry Brice b. 1831
- married Elizabeth Le Page
- no descendants....
4. Maria Emma Brice b. 1833
- married Nicholas Bichard
5. John James Brice b. 1836
- 1st married Judith Ozanne
= had ten children....
- 2nd married Caroline Newcombe Brewer
6. Richard Cox Brice b.1838
- married Selinaa Ozanne
= no issue....
7. Walter Brice b.1842 never married.
8. Charlotte Louise Brice 1845
- Married Mr Daw.....
9. Edwin Charles Brice b. 1847
- (THIS would be the "CHARLES" you found)
- (also called Edward... )
- 1st marriage Josephine Broughton...
- 2nd marriage Nancy May Ollivier a.k.a "Anne Ollivier -
10. Alfred Thomas Brice
- died as infant....
A lot of info here to go throgh.. I'll keep packin em away...
Thanks for keeping in their....
Bye fo rnow,
Will.
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Hi Will
re
9. Edwin Charles Brice b. 1847
- (THIS would be the "CHARLES" you found)
- (also called Edward... )
- 1st marriage Josephine Broughton...
- 2nd marriage Nancy May Ollivier a.k.a "Anne Ollivier
Why I questioned Charles was the fact that Charles AND Edwin have been enumerated on the 1851. Also Charles' age does not fit with anyone.
Charles son, home, 11 b Ditto………………. Not sure who he is?
Edwin son, 4, b ditto
deb :)
-
I had been working on Richard Cox Brice . Posting it just for reference; ;D
Re Richard Cox Brice b 1838
We have him in 1841 in Tiverton and in 1851 and 1861 in St PP
1871
On board the Mermaid of Guernsey
Richard Brice married, 32, Mate, b Island of Guernsey
1881
Mon Plaisis?? Cottage
Richard Cox Brice head married , 43, mariner b Tiverton Devon
Selina wife 39 b St Sampson
Thomas Howard Keeling 39 lodger unm, no occupation, b Middlesex, England
1891
St PP
7 Pollet Street
Transcribed as BEIER
Richard Cox (transcribed COE) Brice head mar 52, labourer b Devon
Selina wife 49 b St Sampson
1901
St PP
??House, William’s place
Richard Brice head mar 62 general Labourer b ENGLAND
Selina O wife b St Sampson
(Selina the wife, could be Selina Ozanne, b 1842 St Sampson)
-
RE Charlotte Louise BRICE b 1845
8. Charlotte Louise Brice 1845
- Married Mr Daw.....
We have her up until 1861
1871 she is in St PP as a servant transcribed as Charlotte Le Brice …def. Charlotte L Brice
1881
St PP
Hammond Yard
James DAWE head mar 48, steam boat Porter, Dock lab b Dorset, Beaminster
CHARLOTTE L wife 37 b St PP
Frederick W son 7 b St PP
1891
Hamons (sic) Yard
James Dawe head, mar, 57 Steam ship poter, dock , b Dorset
Charlotte L wife 47, b St PP
Frederick W son 17, fishmonger’s assistant
Can’t see them in Guernsey in 1901 but I have found this
1901
Plymouth, Devon
37 St Bernard’s Rd
Frederick Dawe head mar 25 merchant seaman b Guernsey
Bessie wife 22 b Plymouth
Lily dau 1 b Plymouth
Bessie dau 3 months b Plymouth
Frederick William Dawe = Bessie Elizabeth SYMONS
Mar q 1899, Plymouth
Vol 5b pg 409
Deb
-
2. Frederick James Brice b.1827
- was harbourmaster
- married Ann Elizabeth Cutler (a.k.a. Elizabeth Ann Cutler
- a.k.a. "Liz Cotter")
- they had son John Symons Brice - sailor - died by accident at sea.
- another son Austen Robert Anderson Brice
became Mayor of Rockport, Texas
- another son Edwin Ted Brice married a Emma Ling -
1851
Frederick and Ann E Brice have a son Frederick, 7 months b St PP
By 1871 they have these children:
Austin R Anderson son 10
John Lyons 9 ,,,is this John SYMONS Brice you referred to?
Harriet Ann 7
Jemima Blanche 7
Rose Louisa 3
All born St Sampson
Can’t find them in 1861 supposedly Edwin Ted was born circa 1855 according to the family site.
Deb
-
- Hi Deb,
It looks like you've found someone missed by the family historians of WHB & Elizabeth Duckham:
Why I questioned Charles was the fact that Charles AND Edwin have been enumerated on the 1851. Also Charles' age does not fit with anyone.
Charles son, home, 11 b Ditto………………. Not sure who he is?
Edwin son, 4, b ditto
I notice between Richard Cox B. 1838 and Walter B. 1842 there is about 4 years, making room for a birth in 1840, which would fit a Charles Brice since he is 11 yrs of age in the 1851 census record.
Perhaps previously in the 1841 census he was still a small infant, or sick, and was being nursed somewhere other than the family home...
I notice also that the youngest son, Alfred Thomas B. (b.1849), who died at about 3 yrs in 1852, is not in the family home in the 1851 census. He must have been being cared for elsewhere.
An anomaly with the 1851 census which I think you noticed is that the 2nd son William Henry B. (b.1831) should be 20 yrs of age but he is listed as 16 in that year's census.
In the later 1861 census, when he is married, his age is what it should be (30).
Thanks for all these data, Deb. It will take me a while to go through it and update the family tree with the extra info.
Will check your other posts,
Will.
-
Hi again,
Family tree on rootsweb includes:
" According to a copy of the "Greffier's notebook", John S. Brice, OS, on board Brig Flossie of Guernsey, fell from the maintopsail yard at 1:15 am on March 27, 1879. "...efforts where (sic) made to try and save life but owing to strong gale and heavy sea running nothing could be done." 10 miles NE of Bill of Portland. Signed by Edwin (something crossed out and "John" written above) Brice (brother?) and William Pearce, Mate London April 10, 1879 Same document states that John Symons is the "son of Frederick Brice (Customs officer) and of Elizabeth Cotter (sic) his wife".
Re Frederick James Brice (b.1827) and Ann Elizabeth Cutler's children:
By 1871 they have these children:
Austin R Anderson son 10
John Lyons 9 ,,,is this John SYMONS Brice you referred to?
Yes Deb that John Lyons would have to be John Symons Brice, who would have been aged 9 or 10 in that year 1871:
More details from rootsweb of Fred and Ann's children:
- Frederick James Brice b.c. 1850 married Lillian Condy Newcombe Brewer
- Thomas W Brice b.c. 1852 married Betsy Le Haitre
- Edwin Ted Brice b.c. 1855 married Emma Ling
- Albert Richard Brice b.c. 1856
- Suzannah Sarchet Brice b.1858
- Austin Robert Anderson Brice b.c. 1860 ? married s.o. who ended up in Canada
- John Symons Brice b.c.1861 ... drowned at sea 27th March 1879
- Harriet Ann Brice b.c.1863
- Jemima Blanche Brice b.c. 1865
- Rose Louisa Brice b.c. 1867 married Albert Henry Foster
- Ann Elizabeth Brice b.1869
Couldn't find who the others married..
I saw also an interesting ref. in books-google, book called "The Quiet Adventurers in North America By Marion G. Turk" a reference to an Edwin Edgar Brice born 1878 d.1949 who married a Jenny -- in Guernsey, and who is "related to the Ling family".
Sounds like possibly a son of the above Edwin Brice who married Emma Ling.
tired now... will check back later.
Will.
-
Hi doing some research on my husband Bryan's Brice ancestry
They are from Devon too from a Thomas Brice baptised around 1749 who married a Grace Hooper.
Their daughter Ann Brice married William Dey who in turn had a daughter Eliza Dey and she married a William Scanes.
This family sailed to Australia in 1855 but Eliza died at sea.
So I'm wondering could your Brice's be related to my husband's Brice's
Around the same area
Haven't gone further than Thomas Brice
AvonGirl
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Hi Avongirl,
I am very sorry but captain Will's emails are no longer working and your message has just bounced back to us :'(
I have done a search for Will but sadly I have not been able to find an alternative way of contacting him.
Regards
Sarah
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Thank you Sarah
He needs to update like I had to.