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General => Armed Forces => Topic started by: Siam01 on Sunday 26 September 10 11:52 BST (UK)
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My ancestor was involved in the British Invasion of the River Plate arriving in 1807. His name was Jose Cornelio Boné (Joseph Cornelius Bone) born about 1786 in England and he never returned to his homeland. He settle in Colonia, Uruguay married a Uruguayan and had numerous children and died there.
How can I find out in which regiment he was with?
The only clue is that I have been told his estate bears the name of Beresford and Whitelocke. The estate is no longer in the family.
Any information is appreciated.
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Beresford & Whitelocke were the Commanders of the British Forces for the 2 invasions - see Wikipedia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_invasions_of_the_R%C3%ADo_de_la_Plata
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Hi,
The regiments involved in the 1807 South American expedition were as follows:
6th Dragoon Guards
9th Light Dragoons
17th Light Dragoons
20th Light Dragoons
21st Light Dragoons
1/5th Foot
1/36th Foot
1/38th Foot
1/40th Foot
1/45th Foot
1/47th Foot
54th Foot
1/71st Foot
1/87th Foot
1/88th Foot
1/89th Foot
1/95th Foot
2/95th Foot
Royal Artillery & Horse Artillery
detachments of Royal Marines and Royal Navy
So not as bad as it could be, you have a shortlist of 20-odd regiments.
I think it's going to be a case of finding 20 sets of regimental muster rolls for 1806-ish in the archives and going through them one-by-one till you find him.
He won't appear on any medal rolls and I don't see papers for him on the TNA catalogue.
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There is no record of a Joseph Bone having held a commission in the Brtish army around that time. For rank and file only the records of those who retired with a pension have been kept, and again he is not listed. The only other records require you to know his regiment, and given the number of regiments that took part - c20 army regiments plus marines and navy - it would be very time-consuming to research.
Ken
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Beresford & Whitelocke were the Commanders of the British Forces for the 2 invasions - see Wikipedia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_invasions_of_the_R%C3%ADo_de_la_Plata
Thanks, I have read about them before but what confuse me is that Beresford was commander of the 1st invasion and Whitelocke of the 2nd invasion, my ancestor arrived in the 2nd invasion. Why would he have Beresford unless it's I have incorrect information and he arrived in 1806???
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Hi,
The regiments involved in the 1807 South American expedition were as follows:
6th Dragoon Guards
9th Light Dragoons
17th Light Dragoons
20th Light Dragoons
21st Light Dragoons
1/5th Foot
1/36th Foot
1/38th Foot
1/40th Foot
1/45th Foot
1/47th Foot
54th Foot
1/71st Foot
1/87th Foot
1/88th Foot
1/89th Foot
1/95th Foot
2/95th Foot
Royal Artillery & Horse Artillery
detachments of Royal Marines and Royal Navy
So not as bad as it could be, you have a shortlist of 20-odd regiments.
I think it's going to be a case of finding 20 sets of regimental muster rolls for 1806-ish in the archives and going through them one-by-one till you find him.
He won't appear on any medal rolls and I don't see papers for him on the TNA catalogue.
Thank you for your extensive list. I had only managed to find three regiement but knew that there had to be many more.
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There is no record of a Joseph Bone having held a commission in the Brtish army around that time. For rank and file only the records of those who retired with a pension have been kept, and again he is not listed. The only other records require you to know his regiment, and given the number of regiments that took part - c20 army regiments plus marines and navy - it would be very time-consuming to research.
Ken
Hi Ken,
Thank you for looking up and yes I agree it will be very time consuming but with pot of luck someone might have seen his name somewhere.
Thanks again.
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Hi,
The regiments involved in the 1807 South American expedition were as follows:
6th Dragoon Guards
9th Light Dragoons
17th Light Dragoons
20th Light Dragoons
21st Light Dragoons
1/5th Foot
1/36th Foot
1/38th Foot
1/40th Foot
1/45th Foot
1/47th Foot
54th Foot
1/71st Foot
1/87th Foot
1/88th Foot
1/89th Foot
1/95th Foot
2/95th Foot
Royal Artillery & Horse Artillery
detachments of Royal Marines and Royal Navy
So not as bad as it could be, you have a shortlist of 20-odd regiments.
I think it's going to be a case of finding 20 sets of regimental muster rolls for 1806-ish in the archives and going through them one-by-one till you find him.
He won't appear on any medal rolls and I don't see papers for him on the TNA catalogue.
Hi,
I just had a though I could probably narrow it down further by selecting the regiments who where in Colonia, Uruguay around that time.
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I just had a though I could probably narrow it down further by selecting the regiments who where in Colonia, Uruguay around that time.
Possibly. Also, if you're sure you're ancestor arrived in the second invasion rather than the first or third, that narrows things down too.
6th Dragoon Guards
9th Light Dragoons
17th Light Dragoons
20th Light Dragoons
21st Light Dragoons (1 squadron)
1/5th Foot
1/36th Foot
1/38th Foot
1/40th Foot
1/45th Foot
1/47th Foot
54th Foot
1/71st Foot (1 company only)
1/87th Foot
1/88th Foot
1/89th Foot
1/95th Foot (3 companies)
2/95th Foot
Royal Artillery & Horse Artillery
detachments of Royal Marines and Royal Navy
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Found a couple of references to Colonia....
26 Feb 1807 - Lt-Col Pack dispatched west from Montevideo with 6 companies of the 40th Foot, 4 companies of light infantry (various regiments?), 3 companies of the 95th Rifles and a squadron of 9th Dragoons to seize Colonia and impede any possible Spanish counterattacks from Buenos Aires.
7 Jun 1807 - Pack steals out of Colonia with 541 men of the 40th, 225 men of the 95th, 278 skirmishers, 61 troopers of the 9th Dragoons, 34 gunners and 2 field pieces to surprise the Spanish at San Pedro......
26 Jun 1807 - Pack's garrison abandons Colonia, joining Whitelocke's expedition against Buenos Aires.
So those are the regiments I'd look for him in first, but you still need a researcher or yourself to visit Kew for the answer.
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Found a couple of references to Colonia....
26 Feb 1807 - Lt-Col Pack dispatched west from Montevideo with 6 companies of the 40th Foot, 4 companies of light infantry (various regiments?), 3 companies of the 95th Rifles and a squadron of 9th Dragoons to seize Colonia and impede any possible Spanish counterattacks from Buenos Aires.
7 Jun 1807 - Pack steals out of Colonia with 541 men of the 40th, 225 men of the 95th, 278 skirmishers, 61 troopers of the 9th Dragoons, 34 gunners and 2 field pieces to surprise the Spanish at San Pedro......
26 Jun 1807 - Pack's garrison abandons Colonia, joining Whitelocke's expedition against Buenos Aires.
So those are the regiments I'd look for him in first, but you still need a researcher or yourself to visit Kew for the answer.
Hi Neil,
Thank you for your help. Not long ago I found the references you send but was overwhelm with the numbers of regiments.
I presume Kew is the National Archives center in the England; I live in Australia so it makes it difficult to visit the center. Is there any other avenue, other than going through this painful process of checking at least 14 regiments?? Do they have an index on-line or computer system in their premise, where you can insert the name and it will show up which regiment???
Are you able to explain to me what it means when they refer to the 6th companies of the 40th foot? I know that the 40th foot is the regiment but what are the 6 companies??
As you know he didn’t return home so he would have not received the pension or medals for his effort. So I wonder if you have any suggestion as to what documents could indicate his career in the military that may still be in Uruguay?
Thanks again for your help.
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I presume Kew is the National Archives center in the England; I live in Australia so it makes it difficult to visit the center. Is there any other avenue, other than going through this painful process of checking at least 14 regiments?? Do they have an index on-line or computer system in their premise, where you can insert the name and it will show up which regiment???
Indeed, Kew is The National Archives. As you can't easily visit in person, the other option is to hire a researcher to look for you. There are several who specialise in military matters.
No other avenue suggests itself to me other than the musters which aren't online sadly. Pension records are online but have already checked and your man isn't listed (as he stayed in Uruguay it's entirely possible he deserted/went AWOL)
.
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I presume Kew is the National Archives center in the England; I live in Australia so it makes it difficult to visit the center. Is there any other avenue, other than going through this painful process of checking at least 14 regiments?? Do they have an index on-line or computer system in their premise, where you can insert the name and it will show up which regiment???
Indeed, Kew is The National Archives. As you can't easily visit in person, the other option is to hire a researcher to look for you. There are several who specialise in military matters.
No other avenue suggests itself to me other than the musters which aren't online sadly. Pension records are online but have already checked and your man isn't listed (as he stayed in Uruguay it's entirely possible he deserted/went AWOL)
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Thank you for your help. I agree with you, I think he deserted the army/navy too. I think I will leave it at that for now and try to dig up more information on the other end (Uruguay) to see if I can find information about which regiment he was involved with.
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I am currently researching the British Invasions of the River Plate. Although I have not done a systematic search for Joseph Cornelius Bone, I have come across two soldiers named Bone.
1) Assistant Surgeon Bone of the 5th Regiment – busy dressing the wounded during BA attack on 5th July 1807 (NAM 6403-14) - He is mentioned in Major King's account held in the National Army Museum, London.
2) Sergeant-Major William Bone - 88th Regiment – ‘for his gallant conduct [on 5th July 1807]…was recommended by …Duff for an ensigncy, to which he was promoted and died a Captain in the Royal African regiment.’ (Historical Record 88th, p.14)
Obviously the second was not Jospeh Cornelius and the first is unlikely to be him either (if he was a deserter he was almost certainly Rank and File), but I thought you might be interested anyway.
Happy hunting!
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Hi, thank you for your post and sorry it has taken me this long to reply tbut I have been overseas.
You are right it's not him but worth investiging as it may be his brother, uncle or cousin?
When you say he was rank and file. Do you mean they have some a file for all deserter in that particular war??
I am most interested in what you have investigated on the British Invasions of the River Plate. What are you looking for??
Best of luck on your investigations
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Hi Siam,
Rank and file means not an officer, i.e a private, corporal or sergeant.
I am researching the entire invasion from both points of view (both English and South American / Spanish) for a book I hope to have published in about a year and a half or so. A lot of primary sources from the British side have not been used before, so the research is fascinating.
Thanks for your interest.
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Sorry, but 'Rank and file' mean Corporals and below. 'Other ranks' means NCOs and below.
Ken
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Thanks for the clarification.
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Hi I am back after all these years!
Not sure if we can continue this thread.
I am looking to get in contact with tirofijoisback who was researching the entire invasion for a book.
Love to hear if the book is out and available to read??
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Maybe it is this one - http://www.amazon.co.uk/British-Invasion-River-Plate-1806-1807/dp/1781590664
As you both have made more than three posts you can send him a personal message as well.
Ken
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Hi Ken,
Thank you for the link.
I don't know my way around RootsChat much. How do I send a personal message??
:D
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Hi Ken,
Please disregard my previous email. I figure how to send a PM.
Thanks again.
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Hi,
Could someone tell me how I can find out where Lieutenant Murray from the 1/71st Regiment of foot was recruiting soldiers for the British Army (1/71st Regiment of foot) in Ireland in May 1804.
I know there are four possible places they are; Limerick, Newcastle; Rathkeale and Tarbert.
Any information is appreciated :)
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It is very rare for an officer to be away from the regiment recruiting. Usually it was a small party 3 to 5 under a Corporal or Sergeant. My have two sources - one says Ireland, another says Scotland. Also, in 1804 they raised a second battalion.
The best records would be the muster books in the National Archives. They are not online. But they are just about your only hope.. It is a case of having a look to see what you have. You could also try their museum if they have one to see if they have any records. Or searching online newspapers for details of where regiments and detachments were. But I doubt specific officers will be mentioned.
Ken
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Hi Ken,
Thank you for your prompt reply.
I live in Australia, I was in the UK in June and had only one day to spare at the National Archive in Kew. I looked up the 1804 Muster Pay List they were station according to the Pay List between 25 June to 24 July in Rathkeale.
In that pay period there is a section for recruitment details it has; list of names, date of enlistment and Names of Officers commanding the parties by which enlisted and that was Lt. Murray. My ancestor was Cornelius Bonner (a private) is on this list as enlisted on the 22 May 1804.
I don't believe they were in Rathkeale when he was enlisted I didn't think at the time of looking the months before as he was recorded only in this pay period 25 June to 24 July 1804. On this same pay list period under notes for some individual privates it has "duty Newcastle"(I assume in Ireland) and Newcastle is a long way from Rathkeale. So I am confuse as to where he might have been recruited.
Before posting here I attempted writing to the 71st Highlander of Foot in Scotland via contact section of their web site but having lots of trouble sending them a message getting message expire time out.
Thanks :)
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Sometimes there is a gap between being recruited and enlisting. The key is did the Paymaster pay the recruit from 22 May? If not he was travelling from where they were recruited to headquarters where the regiment surgeon and paymaster were based. how many days the paymaster paid the recruit in that quarter. He would only have paid they when they arrived at headquarters. Also did you look in the back? Muster books change frequently in the 19th century and in a later section the officer may have put in a claim for travel costs of the men he had recruited to headquarters. Which may help in interpreting.
That is why it is important to look at all pages of the muster.
Also was there a column for being at sea? They may have marched to Belfast and caught a packet to Limerick Town. Although more than a month's gap suggests they marched.
If you are after where/when he was born the last muster entry is often the place to look, if the first gives nothing. It looks as if his record has not been kept. This suggests he did not receive a pension. 1804 is when the war with France started up again and large numbers of men were recruited for seven years service without a pension. So 1811 would be the next muster to look. If he does not feature then you need to look in the 2nd Battalion. He may also have transferred from a Militia for a bounty for agreeing to serve overseas. So when you do find his local county you should look for their Militia muster in Kew.
There are contact details here - http://www.armymuseums.org.uk/museums/0000000100-Royal-Highland-Fusiliers-Museum.htm
Ken
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Hi Ken,
Thank you so much for your knowledgeable information. You have directed me to what I should be reading the Pay Master book.
I took digital photos of some pages of the Pay Master.
No he was not paid 25 June to 24 July pay period. He first pay was from 25 July to 24 August.
I have a digital copy off the Statement of Marches and also a copy of Lt. Murray being paid for recruiting and under note it states “Recruiting Strabane” this is for pay period 25 June to 24 July.
Could Strabane area be it??
He would not have received the pension as he remained in South America which states in the Pay Master of 1806.
Thank your help is much appreciated
Maria
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I live in Australia, I was in the UK in June and had only one day to spare at the National Archive in Kew. I looked up the 1804 Muster Pay List they were station according to the Pay List between 25 June to 24 July in Rathkeale. .and Newcastle is a long way from Rathkeale. ....... to where he might have been recruited..
Australia ..... have you checked the AJCP ..... they have quite a number of reels of pay lists and musters :)
https://www.nla.gov.au/microform-australian-joint-copying-project (National Library of Australia)
http://acms.sl.nsw.gov.au/item/itemDetailPaged.aspx?itemID=432226 (NSW State Library)
http://guides.slsa.sa.gov.au/AJCP (South Australia State Library)
Mr Google probably has live links to the rest of the state and territory libraries.
Fingers crossed
Cheers, JM
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Gosh thank you JM,
I didn't know such project had been undertaken.
I will look into this.
Maria :)
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I don't know if they did all the muster and pay lists, but I do know they did plenty. :)
Fingers crossed for you.
Cheers, JM
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Thank JM
It did be incredible if they have it here when I went all the way to the UK. Still it would be great to re-check some information again.
Maria ;D
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Hi Maria
So are you saying he joined 22 May but was not paid by the Paymaster until July?
The dates you quote are the start and end days of the month. The muster should tell you how many days he was paid for within each period.
My understanding is that AJCP only copied records of interest to Australian researchers.
Ken
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Hi Ken,
Yes, that's what it looks like to me because the previous pay period he is not mentioned (25 May to 24 June) he was recruited on the 22nd May.
See attached sheet for pay period 25 June to 24 July 1804. I include two sheets of the same, one is a close up. See Cornelius Bonner - "Recruited join from Lt Murray". I also include the sheet stating recruit date.
With regard to the AJCP I agree with you this may be the case.
Thank you.
Maria
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Hi Ken,
Having problem sending the files too big.
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Close up of Cornelius Bonner = Recruiting join from Lt Murray
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Hi Ken,
Can't seem to reduce the size of the whole sheet anyway the main details is in the close up.
Maria
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Hi Maria
I have been through the historical records of the 71st HLI. In May 1804 they moved to Rathkeale, Co Limerick with company strength detachments in Newcastle (eight miles away), Tarbert and Askeaton.
Unfortunately no indication of where Lt Murray was. So you will need the muster book next.
ken
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Hi Ken,
Thank you for your reply.
Just for your information a documentary film will be made on the life of my ancestor in Uruguay by someone who also descendants from him. This is why I am trying to get as much information as I can to reunite Ireland with Uruguay.
I also have looked as to their (71st regiment) where about during that time.
I notice in the Muster period of 25 June to 24 July which is the period when my ancestor was mentioned as recruited into the British Army on the 22nd May. It notes that Lt Murray was recruiting in Strabane, Ireland and I read somewhere that the British Army had a Garrison until 1922 in the small town of Lifford which is near Strabane. I haven’t got the previous pay period so can’t say if Lt Murray was recruiting there too. It might be a possibility he was from around this area.
You mentioned my ancestor was in the Grenadier Company when I submitted the image - How did you know that and where does it say on the records??
One last questions that has been puzzling me for years and maybe you could shed some light:
In the Paymaster period 25 June to 24 September 1806. Under Captain Paley’s Company in the 71st Regiment.
The following was noted under remarks for each soldiers. Note that 12th of August was the day General William Beresford surrender in Buenos Aires.
• 4 soldiers killed (all on the 12 August).
• 13 soldiers Remained in South America, including Cornelius Bonner (all on the 13th August)
• 9 solders deserted (five on the 13th August the others a few days later)
The rest of the soldiers (52 soldiers) nothing is written under remarks. There were a total of 78 soldiers in Captain Paley's company.
I am puzzle as to why it says Remained in South America and not Deserted for my ancestor Cornelius Bonner. What does this mean he was given permission to stay there??
I have a digital image of this information you are interested in viewing it.
Thank you and any information is much appreciated.
Maria
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You mentioned my ancestor was in the Grenadier Company when I submitted the image - How did you know that and where does it say on the records??
Hi Maria
It says Capt Forbes's (Gren'r) Company at the top of one of the images you sent.
If it lists men who deserted and some who 'Remained in South America' then you may be correct about them given permission to stay, ie to be discharged.
Ken
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He Ken,
Thank you.
I have checked the image and it's the Company Lt. Murray was in and remark mentioned that he was recruiting in Strabane. My ancestor was in Captain Paley's company.
I still find it odd that they would discharge them during a war.
Thanks for all your inputs.
Maria
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I do not think they were discharged. The Paymaster stopped paying them when they were taken prisoner.
Ken
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Ok, thank you Ken.
The investigation continues and I will let you know if we locate his place of birth or any other information.
Maria