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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => London and Middlesex => England => London & Middlesex Lookup Requests => Topic started by: Betty.W on Monday 27 September 10 12:09 BST (UK)
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Annie Sewell b.1887 St.Bride. Sarah Sewell b.c1881 or later. St.Bride. William Sewell b.1881 Holborn. and Annette Sewell b.1879 Clerkenwell.
These are my grandmothers siblings. I have been trying for ages to find marriages, and possible children for them without success. I believe Annie lost her husband when the Titanic went down and ended up in a mental home in Surrey where I think she died.
Thanks in advance
Betty.W.
I have looked on a site for Titanic victims, but, need to know Annie's married name.
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If this is them in 1881 - RG11; Piece: 341; Folio: 8; Page: 10 - theres a possible hit in 1891 and 1901, but other names like Harriet appear ?
Using FreeBMD for Deaths / Marriages up to 1901 isnt too helpful so far.
(Saw you added the Passenger list comment)
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Yes this is the right family, Harriett was my grandmother, there was also a brother Charles. I just haven't been able to find the marriages of Annie, Sarah, William and Annette. Obviously I need Annies married name to be able to find her husband on the Titanic lists.
Actually their father had been married before and there was another Annie born in 1869,I found her marriage but her husbands name wasn't on the Titanic lists so it had to be the younger Annie's husband,
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It is unclear from the censuses exactyl how many children there were and how old they were - each census image is very unclear - the names in 1891 and the ages in all of them - so I would reckon there is work to do just establishing who there is!
For example, there is no birth reg for an Annette Sewell around 1878ish. The census is so unclear it could be any name really. So no point in looking for what happened to her if she didnt exist!
1881 RG11 341 8 10
Grays Inn Rd
William J 40 marble polisher
Annie 28
Annie 12
Alice 8?
Annette? 3?
William J 17months?
1891 Rg12 238 26 44
Plough Court
William 52
Annie 37
WIlliam 13
Annie A 17?
Harriett S ?
1901 RG13 140 143 3
Grays Inn Lane
W T 61 Bookseller
Annie 48
William 22
Sarah 20
Annie 14
Harriett 12
Charles 8
Have you found any of them on 1911? that would be the next step.
When Harriet (your direct ancestor who you have traced) marries, who are the witnesses - might be a married sister?
Have you found a death for Mum and dad? If so, Wills can be great sources for finding what happened to offspring, esp finding married names of children.
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On 13th June 1897 an 18 year old Annie Sewell married a Thomas Murray also 18 at St pauls Clekenwell.
He was a newspaper seller of 3 Ludlow Street ,his dad James also a newspaper seller.
She was of 20 Pine Street,her dad William a bookseller.
Witnesses- Alfred Martin and Mary Ann Peak.
All of them signed.
NOT THE RIGHT FAMILY SEE ABOVE
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I'm wondering if we don't have 2 different families here Liz?
I've found the 1919 marriage of a Sarah Sewell age 32 with a dad William who is dec'd but was a marble mason.
Witnesses were Annie Buckthorpe and Charles Henry Sewell.
An Annie Martha SEWELL Married a Frederick BUCKTHORPE in Holborn in June 1889.
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Does your Harriet marry Frederick Murray in 1914?
If so her dad is down as a stonemason.
Carol
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Hi,
Yes my Harriet did marry Frederick Murray. The marriage of Sarah must be the right Sarah because her older half sister - the first Annie was married to Frederick Buckthorpe. also Charles was her half brother. Who did Sarah marry? unfortuantely The marriage of Annie to Thomas Murray isn't my Annie as she was born in 1887. Betty W
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IN that case the 1901 Sewell family that Liz found probably isn't correct,if dad's a book seller?
So he was still alive in 1914 then (unless no one asked Harriet what does your dad do and is he still alive ;D)
Will be back soon with more details ;)
Have you managed to find them in 1911 yet- we can't do look ups I'm afraid.
It might shed some on things, as the length of time married and how many children born within that marriage are given. Even in the men are not living at home ;) they sometimes misunderstood the question(only asked of married women) and also answered how many years married and how many kids ;)
Daughter Annie is a confusing one I must say ;D
Carol
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Sarah Sewell married Richard Jones(good luck ;D)
At Christ Church Hoxton on 31st March 1919.
Richard Jones 41 widower,printers labourer,both of 19 Wiltshire Row Dad William Jones decd Painter
Sarah Sewell 32 spinster, dad William Sewell decd, marble mason
Both signed.
Witnesses Annie Buckthorpe,Charles Henry Sewell and an A Buckthorpe(in a different handwriting,so not Annie as previously listed?)
Carol
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For example, there is no birth reg for an Annette Sewell around 1878ish. The census is so unclear it could be any name really. So no point in looking for what happened to her if she didnt exist!
There is a Jane Anette Sewell born in Hackney in Sept 1879,would that be any good?
Carol
To answer my own question :( No it's not any good- she marries Henry Bayntun in Edmonton in 1899 and her dad is Thomas Sewell. Back to the drawing board ::)
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After having gone over and over the info you have so kindly given me, I now think that the marriage of Annie Sewell in 1897 to Thomas Murray is in fact the one referred to on 1881 census as Annette, her age is about right, also on the 1911 census she is 'Ann' staying with her mother. Although her fathers occupation is given on her marriage as a book seller this also appears on the 1901 census. perhaps he had retired from his occupation or doing a temporary job at the time ? It would be agreat coincidence if there were two William Sewells of the same age and with the same family !!
When William married Annie his first daughter Annie was only a child so when Ann/Annette was born they may have named her Ann but called her Annette to tel them apart.
I notice on the 1911 census that one of the children died I wonder which one - could have been Annie born 1887. What do you think?
Betty
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I have been trying without success to find the husband of my great aunt Annie Sewell. Annie was born c1887, her parents were William Sewell and Annie Sewell nee Grainger.According to family stories Annie lost her husband on the Titanic. I thought that I had found their marriage (Annie Kate Sewell to Henry A Allen in 1911) also a Henry Allen did die on the Titanic.I later found that the names of Annie Kate's parents were not William and Annie. So, it would appear that there were two Annie Sewell's who lost their husbands on the Titanic.
Who did my Annie marry? I have been looking for a few years now.
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Where is your Annie on the census - where was she born
Ignore that I have just seen your old post ;D
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,485598.0.html
Rosie
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Topics merged.
Just in case this is the daugher of the 1st marriage....
Martha Mary Ann daughter of William James & Mary Ann Sewell a marble polisher of 9 Drummond St born Jan 9 1869 was baptised Jan 5th 1874 at St Pancras.
She may be the 2yr old Mary A Sewell 'visiting' William & Martha Moyes in 1871
RG10; Piece: 202; Folio: 83; Page: 24
and the 12yr old Annie in the 1881 census
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Thank you, yes, this is the elder Annie, I found her as being Annie Martha !!
With both her and Annie/Annette being known by different names I am now beginning to wonder if the youngest Annie (born a1887) also had a different name, maybe that is why I can't find her marriage, I know that she was known as Anniie.
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Just so we have the full picture here,when Harriet Louisa Sewell married Frederick Murray on 12th April 1912,the witnesses were Alice Louisa Taylor and William Sewell.
Her dad is given as William James Sewell stone mason.
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William James Sewell marries Mary Ann Holmes in 1864.
1871 they are in Ernest Street St Pancras.
W J Sewell head 31 marble polisher b Holborn
M A Sewell wife 29 b Holborn
Mary E dau 2 b Boro' ( this seems to be the Martha Mary Ann b 1869 that Dawn found yesterday)
RG10/203 Folio 80 Page 63
They don't seem to stick with any of the names they give their kids in day to day life!
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William James Sewell ,widower marries Ann Grainger, spinster on 9th June 1878 at St Philip's Clerkenwell.Both of full age.
He is a mason and they are both of 3 Queen Street.His father Charles james Sewell decd,hers John Grainger also decd
Witnesses are William Benjamin Higginson and Harriet Mayes.
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2 of their children were baptised on 28 June 1881,at Holy Trinity, Grays Inn Road, Camden.
Ann Sewell ,dau of William and Ann,a stone mason of 9 Little,Grays Inn Lane.
William Sewell, son of William and Ann " " " DOB Jan 1881.
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I think we need to fully recap on the censuses and children as we know them including all their various names in chronological order, I don't believe we have an extra Annie just some confusion over census entries and birth years.
Dawn
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Quick first sketch of the chronology here [now amended several times for extra information].
1839 (Dec qtr): Birth reg of William James Sewell, Holborn
1864 (16 May): William James Sewell marries Mary Ann Holmes, St Barnabas Finsbury (St Luke's district)
1869 (9 Jan): Birth of Martha Mary Ann Sewell (per baptism record). Possibly the same person as "Annie", 12 in 1881, but her birthplace given as St Luke's.
1869 (Jan qtr): Registration of birth of Mary Anne Sewell, St Olave
1871 (census): Family at Ernest St, St Pancras. Only child is 2 yo daughter "Mary E", 2 b Boro'.
c1871-3?: Birth of Annie A Sewell (17 or 19 in 1891, birthplace not stated)
1873?: Birth of Alice (Louisa) Sewell (Alice, 8 b Clerkenwell in 1881 - not found in 1891 unless she's the person enumerated as "Annie A")
1874 (5 Jan): Baptism at St Pancras of Martha Mary Ann Sewell, born 1869 ("of 9 Drummond St")
c1874-8: Death of Mary Ann Sewell (William’s wife)
1878 (9 Jun): William James Sewell marries Ann Grainger, Holborn (both "of 3 Queen St")
1878 (Dec qtr): Birth reg of Ann Sewell, Holborn ("Annette", 2 b Clerkenwell, per 1881)
1881 (Jun qtr): Birth reg of William James Sewell, Holborn (baptism record gives birthdate as Jan 1881).
1881 (census): Family at 9 Little Gray's Inn Lane. Children Annie 12, Alice 8?, Annette 2?, William J 1mo?
1881 (28 Jun): Baptism of Ann & William Sewell ("of 9 Little Gray's Inn Lane")
c1881-7?: Birth of Sarah Sewell (20 in 1901 but "32" upon marriage in 1919) Not found in 1891
c1887? Birth of Annie Sewell (14 in 1901) Not found in 1891 or after 1901
1889 (Jun qtr): Birth of Harriet Sewell, London City
1889 (Jun qtr): Annie Martha Sewell marries Frederick Buckthorpe
1891 (census): Family is at 29 Plough Court, Holborn. Son W 13, daurs Annie A 17, Harriet S 2.
1891 (22 Nov): Alice Louisa Sewell marries Arthur Edward Taylor, Christ Church, Southwark. Her father is named as William Sewell, Labourer
1893 (Jun qtr): Birth of Charles Henry Sewell, Holborn
1897: (13 Jun): Annie Sewell (18) marries Thomas Murray (18) at St Paul, Clerkenwell. Her father named as William Sewell, bookseller.
1901 (census): Family at 1 Sidmouth St, off Gray's Inn Rd. William (W. J.) is a bookseller. Children William 22, Sarah 20, Annie 14, Harriett 12, Charles 8.
1914 (12 Apr): Harriet Louisa Sewell marries Frederick Murray, St Philip Clerkenwell
1915 (Mar qtr): Possible death: William Sewell aged 72, Islington.
1919 (31 Mar): Sarah Sewell marries Richard Jones
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1891 they are at 29 Plough Court Holborn.
Sadly the enumerator has missed off all their occupations and places of birth,writing the word OUT by the side of their names.
William Sewell 52 head
Ann Sewell 37 wife
W Sewell 13 son
Annie A Sewell 17 dau
Harriet S Sewell 20 dau
The writing is a bit splodgey and Annie's age could read 17 or 19.
ADDED and Harriet's age looks more like 2- fits in with her being below her older sister too.
Big gap in kids ages though?
Carol
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1891 they are at 29 Plough Court Holborn.
Sadly the enumerator has missed off all their occupations and places of birth,writing the word OUT by the side of their names.
William Sewell 52 head
Ann Sewell 37 wife
W Sewell 13 son
Annie A Sewell 17 dau
Harriet S Sewell 20 dau
The writing is a bit splodgey and Annie's age could read 17 or 19.
Carol
Harriet's 2 I think, not 20? Fits with other info about her.
No idea what to do with Annie A!
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I can't find a definite birth for any of them bar William James (son)
Births Jun 1881
SEWELL William James Holborn 1b 695
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I think this might be William snr's death, apart from an odd reference to Boro, there is no other evidence to suggest the family moved far away from Holborn/Clerkenwell/Pancras
Mar 1915
Sewell William 72 Islington 1b 551
There is a matching burial for this (9 Feb 1915) at www.deceasedonline.com but it looks like a common grave. The Holborn Union Infirmary was in Archway Road, Upper Holloway, if he died there this could be his death and burial.
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Yes I see what you mean about the Islington death/burial, Dawn. His age at death is a bit out but that is nothing new! Will amend the chronology to add it in.
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I wonder if he was in some kind of institution and they weren't really sure of his proper age?
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I wonder if he was in some kind of institution and they weren't really sure of his proper age?
Could well be.
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when Harriet Louisa Sewell married Frederick Murray on 12th April 1912,the witnesses were Alice Louisa Taylor and William Sewell
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Alice Louisa Sewell married Arthur Edward Taylor at Christ Church, Southwark on November 22nd 1891.
She was 18 so that would fit with the Alice born circa 1873 listed in the 1881 census. Father William Sewell, labourer. Witnesses William Sewell and Beatrice Adelaide Ade.
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when Harriet Louisa Sewell married Frederick Murray on 12th April 1912,the witnesses were Alice Louisa Taylor and William Sewell
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Alice Louisa Sewell married Arthur Edward Taylor at Christ Church, Southwark on November 22nd 1891.
She was 18 so that would fit with the Alice born circa 1873 listed in the 1881 census. Father William Sewell, labourer. Witnesses William Sewell and Beatrice Adelaide Ade.
Great stuff. Will amend so as to add these details.
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What a good job these families all used married brothers and sisters as their marriage witnesses ;D
Very helpful !!!
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The original poster wanted to know who her grandma's siblings married and what happened to them.
Now we have found so many of them for you,you should be able to use Free BMD to find children of these marriages by using their newly married surnames (after 1912) and the mothers maiden name (usually Sewell for the girls of course)
Carol
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I have been trying without success to find the husband of my great aunt Annie Sewell. Annie was born c1887, her parents were William Sewell and Annie Sewell nee Grainger.According to family stories Annie lost her husband on the Titanic. I thought that I had found their marriage (Annie Kate Sewell to Henry A Allen in 1911) also a Henry Allen did die on the Titanic.I later found that the names of Annie Kate's parents were not William and Annie. So, it would appear that there were two Annie Sewell's who lost their husbands on the Titanic
(Reply 13)
The logic's a bit faulty there ! The Henry Allen who was a fireman on the Titanic was married to a Cecilia Reid.
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I notice on the 1911 census that one of the children died I wonder which one - could have been Annie born 1887. What do you think?
We can't reproduce 1911 census material on here but it may just be a question of elimination, if Ann's other children can be traced (together?). I can't easily find evidence of Annie born c 1887 after the 1901 census.
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I think it might be better to have a breather now and wait for Betty to read what we have posted (20 replies!) here and come back and add in her thoughts.
Dawn
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Sorry for the delay in replying, I have been reading and rereading everything that you all have sent.This has all been very helpful in confirming a lot of the information that I have.(the marriages of Martha Annie/Annie Martha,Alice,Annie/Annette, Sarah and of course Harriet who was my grandmother.
Not sure about the death of William James Sewell, there is also a death recorded in 1916 - Shoreditch.but again the age is wrong.
Given that the girls didn't seem to stick with one name, I am wondering whether Annie (born 1887) had another name as well. Goodness knows where she was in 1891, perhaps they forgot to put her on the census or maybe she was in hospital or staying with someone !! I know that she did marry and that her husband died when the Titanic sank. I have spoken to my one remaining aunt and she says that she only knew Annie as Annie and remembers my grandmother going to visit Annie in a mental hospital in Surrey which was where she went after the loss of her husband, I suspect that she was suffering from severe depression although back then it was said that she had lost her mind. I guess that I will have to look through all the Sewell births for that time to see if anything likely turns up, then look for possible marriages and checking against the Titanic victims.
Thanks for the help given.
Betty
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Given that the girls didn't seem to stick with one name, I am wondering whether Annie (born 1887) had another name as well. Goodness knows where she was in 1891, perhaps they forgot to put her on the census or maybe she was in hospital or staying with someone !! I know that she did marry and that her husband died when the Titanic sank.
The trouble with so many of them using Annie (or variants) at different times is that it makes it hard to know which was the unlucky Titanic widow.
It definitely wasn't Annie Martha/Martha Annie, who appears with her husband Frederick Buckthorpe in electoral rolls through the 1930s.
Annie c1887 presents the difficulty which you pointed out earlier: a process of elimination suggests that if one of Ann's children died pre-1911, it must have been her.
So might the Titanic widow have been Ann/Annie/Annette, born 1878?
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The 1879 born Annie Sewell was the one who married Thomas Murray on 13th June 1897 when they were both 18.
Her father is listed as William Sewell a bookseller.
Is there a Thomas Murray on the TItanic?
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Biographical info on Titanic casualties http://www.encyclopedia-titanica.org/titanic-victims/
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No Thomas Murray on the Titanic list, not that I have found anyway.
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Not sure about the death of William James Sewell, there is also a death recorded in 1916 - Shoreditch.but again the age is wrong.
You're right, and I wondered about the Shoreditch death both because it includes the middle name and because his daughter Martha Annie Buckthorpe lived in Shoreditch.
However there are factors in favour of the Islington death too, most particularly the possibility that he died in the Holborn workhouse infirmary which fell in Islington registration district.
Obviously you'd need a certificate to be sure.
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I can't find Thomas and Annie Murray together in 1901 or later come to that.
But I think his dad James is in the workhouse in 1901 and here's the family in 1891.
At 10 Francis Court Clerkenwell.
James Murray head 34 newsvendor b Holborn
Elizabeth Murray wife 32 b Somerstown
Thomas Murray son 12 scholar b Clerkenwell
David Murray son 3 b Clerkenwell
Ann Watts widow charwoman b London
RG12/223 Folio 49 Page 6
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Snippets of information on the children (including birthdates) appear from their school admission registers:
Laystall Street School*
Sarah Sewell born 10 July 1886. Admitted 14 June 1899. Father William Sewell of 211 Gray's Inn Rd. Previously at Hugh Myddleton (Spec) at which she completed Standard III.
Harriet Sewell born 12 Sept 1889. Admitted 14 June 1899. Father William Sewell of 211 Gray's Inn Rd. Previously at Hugh Myddleton (Spec) at which she completed Standard II.
Charles Sewell born 4 March 1893. Admitted 14 June 1899. Father William Sewell of 211 Gray's Inn Rd. No previous school.
Charles Sewell born 4 March 1893. Readmitted 28 Jan 1901. Father William Sewell of 211 Gray's Inn Rd. Previously at Rosebery Avenue Infants'. Left 22 May 1902 "to Industrial St".
*Laystall St School is now Christopher Hatton Primary: see www.chrishatton.camden.sch.uk
and www.flickr.com/photos/14008620@N03/5977976185/in/photostream.
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I must say I am increasingly wondering whether Annie c1887 ever existed, or whether in fact there was a transposition error on the 1901 census as between the ages of Ann(ette) b 1878 and Sarah b 1886.
It seems clear from both the school record and the post-1901 evidence (census, marriage) that Sarah would have been 14 when the 1901 census was taken.
Ann(ette) born Dec qtr 1878 would have been 22, so if the ages were transposed then 20 was not miles out for her.
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Thank you for the information regarding the school. I haven't got exact birth dates for all of them, but, I do have for my grandmother Harriet in fact I have a photo copy of her original birth certificate which shows her birth as being 29th March 1889. This family obviously couldn't even get their children's birthdays right!!!
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This family obviously couldn't even get their children's birthdays right!!!
Oh dear :P They didn't make it easy for you, did they!
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Betty my name is Lynne Murray and think I may be able to help if the family is the same.
William sewell - a bookseller living in pine street in 1897. daughter Annie Sewell parish of clerkenwell county of london.
lynne. email
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Annie Sewell born 1879 daughter of William Sewell(Bookseller) of Pirie street or Pine Street married Thomas Murray son of James Murray (News Vendor) of ludlow street on 13th June 1897 both were 18 years of age. married St Pauls.
Thomas and Annie had three children that I know of: Thomas William (b St Batholomews family lived in dundall building berkeley -1912), Fred W and Kate/Catherine.
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Hi Lynne
Welcome to Rootschat ;D
According to her profile, Betty was online here a couple of months ago so should receive an email notification that you have posted and hopefully come back soon.
Dawn
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Hi Lynne, Although I do have the same Annie Sewell as you have mentioned, she is definitely mine, I am not totally convinced that she married Thomas Murray as her fathers occupation was not as a bookseller but a stone mason/stone polisher. On the 1911 census her name is given as Sewell - that could have been a mistake though as she did have children. I have had so much trouble with this family -i.e. changing names etc. I assume that you are related to the said Thomas Murray. Do you know where Thomas was in 1911 as Annie was with her mother.
By the way sorry for the delay in replying, only just got your message when we got back from holiday yesterday.
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Hi Betty .... I have the marriage certificate of Annie sewell daughter of William sewell of Pine street.
witnesses a martin and Mary A Peak
also death certificate and funeral arrangements.
Yes I am Gt grandaughter of Thomas and Annie
ooo exciting. Im in Australia. I have been totally stumped with alot of the murray family
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sorry betty I dont have the census information. only just starting. What are her children's names that you have please. I know of three two boys and a daughter. Thomas (1912) Fred and kate or Catherine. if you can elaborate I will be over the moon.
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Hi Lynne, I am beginning to wonder if Annie was actually married to anyone. According to the 1911 census Annie Sewell was living with her mother she was aged 31. It says that she had been married for 12 years and had three children 2 living and 1 died. - Also on the 1911 census Thomas Murray was living with his parents says he was aged 33,married (on the marriage certificate which I have a copy of they were both aged 18). There is a child which could be Thomas's on this census she is called Katherine aged 11. So, if Thomas was married to my Annie where is the other child that was living at that time? Also, as I said before Annie,s father was a Stone mason - on some censuses he is called a marble polisher, but not a bookseller.
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Hi,further to my last post I have been doing a bit more digging and have at last found the family in St. Pancras. On the 1901 census they put their place of birth as St.Pancras when in fact they were born in the Clerkenwell/Holborn area. Anyway even though the ages don't all tally (my grandmothers birth date is right) it must be the same family. The fathers occupation is given as a bookseller, he must have changed for awhile then gone back to his previous occupation. So the marriage of Annie to Thomas Murray is correct. Funny, my grandmother married a Murray as well.
I have been unable to find Annie and Thomas on the 1901 census, although I did find one Thomas Murray who was in prison could this be him I wonder!!if so where was Annie.I have not been able to find any more children as yet though.
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This is correct. I didn't know Katherine died but I knew she existed. The other son is Fred**** Murray. Changed his surname. So three children. Don't forget Thomas served in the military I'm not sure when but was in royal artillery same as his son Thomas William. Now Annie's mum Sarah Sewell was at the birth of Allan Murray .. Thomas and Elsie Murray's son. So is great Grandmother to Allan Murray. I have birth marriage and death cert My grandfather kept them. Annie got sick probably after Kate's death.. again I have all documents of her death and burial and it was paid for by her son Fred!
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Betty sorry ... The Sarah with Tom and Elsie at Allan's birth was maternal ggmother Sarah. Apologies. But Annie Sewell and Thomas William were 18 in 1897 on 13th June their wedding day so 1911 cencus would be correct at age 32
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Hi Lynne,I am confused here, as I told you, Annie had three children BY 1911 one had died and the other two lived, Katherine was alive aged 11 in 1911. So one of the other two had died and there was no mention of the third. Any other children that she may have has must have been born AFTER 1911. What other children do you have?
Who is Elsie? who is Sarah?
Annie Sewell's mother was Annie Grainger and Annie Grainger's mother was Ann Thomas. It sounds as though you may have got the wrong Annie Sewell's family.
Who is Fred Murray? My grandmother (one of Annie's sisters) married Frederick Murray, BUT he wasn't related to Thomas Murray.
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Hi Betty,
I am confused as well. I was responding to your comments in the first few posts...
You were asking...
Annie Sewell b.1887 St.Bride. Sarah Sewell b.c1881 or later. St.Bride. William Sewell b.1881 Holborn. and Annette Sewell b.1879 Clerkenwell.
These are my grandmothers siblings. I have been trying for ages to find marriages, and possible children for them without success. I believe Annie lost her husband when the Titanic went down and ended up in a mental home in Surrey where I think she died.
Thanks in advance
Betty.W.
You further advised that "annie" was possibly th eyounger Annie and was in a mental hospital after her husband died.
I have an Annie Sewells marriage certificate (1897). Her father was William Sewell. she was 18.
Annie sewell married Thomas Murray (b1912) .. I also have her death certificate. Signed by her son Fred, Thomas's brother of course. Katherine was their sister and I have no info on her.
I also have funeral arrangement paper work and confirmation she was admitted to Cane Hill phych hospital.
Fred didnt die he was still alive in 1943. I also have the announcement card of annies death as my grandfather (this Thomas & Annie Murrays son (Thomas William) kept them all.
Elsie is Thomas Junior (my Grandad's Wife) .. the sarah I mentioned I apologised for as this was Elsie's mum not Thomas' mum.
Very similiar but obviously not same family. L.
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I think that both Lynne and I need some help, - Annie Sewell and Thomas Murray married in 1897.On the 1911 census Annie was at her mothers house,it states that she had tree children,(2.living and 1 died) However, I have found only one child (Katherine age 11) living with her father Thomas at his mothers house. so it is possible that two children died and only one lived. Annie and Thomas had another child in 1912 named Thomas William. Lynne believes that they another son named Frederick W.a few years after Thomas William, but I cannot find this birth. When Annie died in Cane Hill Mental hospital Coulsdon in 1943 the person who registered the death is named as F.W.Clare relationship - son !! This is the person that Lynne thinks must be Frederick W Murray and that he had changed his name. In 1943 F.W.Clare lived at 46 Noel Road/Street Islington.In 1935 - 1943 Thomas William also lived in Noel street or Road..We have also been unable to find a death for Thomas Senior. Hopefully someone can help us with this mystery - Thank-you
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have you tried searching for pre-1911 births directly on the GRO site?
https://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates/Login.asp
Their birth index now includes the mother's maiden name in search results.
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I think that both Lynne and I need some help, - Annie Sewell and Thomas Murray married in 1897.On the 1911 census Annie was at her mothers house,it states that she had tree children,(2.living and 1 died) However, I have found only one child (Katherine age 11) living with her father Thomas at his mothers house. so it is possible that two children died and only one lived. Annie and Thomas had another child in 1912 named Thomas William. Lynne believes that they another son named Frederick W.a few years after Thomas William, but I cannot find this birth. When Annie died in Cane Hill Mental hospital Coulsdon in 1943 the person who registered the death is named as F.W.Clare relationship - son !! This is the person that Lynne thinks must be Frederick W Murray and that he had changed his name. In 1943 F.W.Clare lived at 46 Noel Road/Street Islington.In 1935 - 1943 Thomas William also lived in Noel street or Road..We have also been unable to find a death for Thomas Senior. Hopefully someone can help us with this mystery - Thank-you
The couple at 46 Noel Rd in the 1940s were Frederick W and his wife Grace Florence Clare. At the same address a Rose Murray was listed (with Grace) in 1945.
Frederick W Clare married Grace F Swinchatt in Islington, Sep qtr 1934.
His likely death: Frederick William Clare (born 20 May 1909), death reg Apr 1998 Basingstoke.
Her likely death: Grace Florence Clare (born 26 Oct 1913), death reg Nov 1986 Basingstoke.
I can't see at the moment any obvious family relationship with the Murrays or Sewells.
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Good Morning Betty and all that are helping here. Thank you so very much.
I would like to confirm that Frederick W Murray did change his name officially from Murray to Clare.
My grandfather and father confirmed this over the years.
May I ask with the Rose MURRAY at the same address as Fredrick may I ask if it says how old she is?
and relationship.
The Swinchat relationship I did pick up and had this as a possiblility so thank you there. Very much worth trying to find out more.
Betty Im not sure of whether or not Thomas Jnr was older or younger than the others. this was never spoken about Just the definate 'brother and sister' and their names.
Thanks everyone.
I think the key to all this will be with the possible grandmother of Thomas W, Frederick W and Katherine. The Death announcement card I have for her is Caroline Elizabeth Murray possibly known as Elizabeth Murray - Wife of James Murray. The card says.... In affectionate remembrance of Caroline Elizabeth Murray who passed away January 22nd 1936 aged 79 years. Layed to rest at Abney Park Cemetary In Grave No 50147.
1901 census has a james murray and elizabeth Murray with Sons Thomas (12) and David (3) at 10 Francis Court Clerkenwell.
could anyone extend on this for us Please.
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Hi Lynne, regarding the 1901 census, this must be the right family, except that they got their childrens ages/year of birth wrong.!! David would have been 13 in 1901 and Thomas 23. They were at the address in Francis Court on the 1891 census. No wonder I couldn't find Thomas on the 1901 census when I looked. We will have to find out now who Rose Murray was !! It doesn't get any easier with this family does it Lynne.
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Unfortunately, electoral registers do not contain dates or birth or family relationships.
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I have had a look at Rose Murray, and believe she is likely to be nee Rose Thomas. She married John Royden/Roydon Murray in the City of London in 1936 and they lived at more than one Noel Rd address in the years before the war.
I don't know why she would have been with the Clares in 1945 - perhaps John had gone off to the war?
Their likely deaths:
John Roydon Murray (born 10 Oct 1909), death reg Apr 1987 Bromley
Rose Murray (born 21 Oct 1912), death reg Oct 1994 Bromley
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Do you know what name was given for Frederick's father on his marriage cert? also what his occupation was?
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Do you know what name was given for Frederick's father on his marriage cert? also what his occupation was?
Unless one of those researching the family has already obtained the certificate, you would need to order it from the GRO in order to ascertain those details.
www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates
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Betty, I have found the mysterious Catherine Murray - daughter of Thomas and Annie (or maybe not) annie.....Still no luck with frederick but still convinced its frederick Clare. Lynne.
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Is Rose Murray nee Thomas in anyway related to Ann Thomas born about 1820 who married John Grainger in 1844 ?
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I have no idea but Rose is living with Grace at 43 Noel Road (Fred's Wife) and being a murray is confusing me......
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Hi Lynne,where did you find Catherine?
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Does anyone know who the parents of Rose Murray nee Thomas and John R Murray were?
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Hi
I am researching Frederick W Clare on behalf of Christine Edith Cooke. I did some further research and found the following information, which may or may not help me/you:
Name: Frederick William Clare
Baptism Age: 0
Record Type: Baptism
Birth Date: 20 May 1909 (Matches date on 1939 register)
Baptism Date: 13 Jun 1909
Baptism Place: St John, Clerkenwell, Islington, England
Father: Frederick William Clare
Mother: Annie Clare (I cannot find a marriage)
==================
Name: Frederick William Clare
Death Age: 88
Birth Date: 20 May 1909
Registration Date: Apr 1998
======================
Name: Grace Florence Swinchatt
Baptism Age: 0
Record Type: Baptism
Birth Date: 26 Oct 1913
Baptism Date: 23 Nov 1913
Baptism Place: St John, Hackney, Hackney, England
Father: Walter Swinchatt
Mother: Grace Elizabeth Swinchatt, nee Frost
Name: Grace F Swinchatt
Date of Registration: Jul-Aug-Sep 1934
Spouse: Frederick W Clare (dob 20 May 1909)
Certificate shows: Frederick was 25 and a bachelor; occupation: motor driver: residence: 13 Provence Street, Islington. Father: Frederick Clare, railway porter. Witnesses: W Swinchatt; F C Bradbrook. Date: 9th September 1934.
First name(s) Grace Florence
Last name Clare
Gender Female
Birth day 26
Birth month 10
Birth year 1913
Age -
Death quarter 4
Death year 1986
================
Children:
Two daughters. One born 1937, the other born 1940. The latter married in 1962. We have DNA match, 2nd to 4th cousins but I don't fully understand the results.
==================
1939
Frederick William (b 20 May 1909) and Grace (b 26 Oct 1913) registered at 20 Danbury Street, Islington with their daughter. Frederick was working as a motor driver, heavy work.
1948
Frederick William and Grace C Clare living at 46 Noel Road, Islington. Also in the house Ellen Bruce, Mary Bruce, Thomas Bruce, John Murray, Rose Murray.
1965
Frederick William and Grace C Clare living at 20 The Close, Iver, Buckinghamshire.
===============
Frederick William Clare Snr
b 16 Oct 1883
1939
Frederick William Clare b 16 Oct 1883, Railway Porter & Trained On Signalman. Living with him Mildred Reta Price Clare b 04 Dec 1916.
Name: Mildred R P Harwood
Date of Registration: Apr-May-Jun 1938
Spouse: Frederick W Clare
==============
Death notice:
CLARE, MILDRED RETA PRICE, Widow of the late Frederick William and Mother of four children, two sons/two daughters. One son predeceased his mother. Mildred died on New Years Day 2012 aged 95 years
==============
To summarise, maybe Annie Sewell was Frederick William Clare's mother with or without parents' marriage!
I look forward to learning more. We have had DNA test and it shows a match with Frederick William and Grace Florence Clare's youngest daughter. Our ancestry comes from Matilda Clare daughter of Francis and Caroline Clare nee Ward.
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Hi Socialite2018
Welcome to Rootschat ;D
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Dawn
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Hello out there,
We are definately researching the same Frederick William Clare - Grace Swinchatt.
I stronglybelieve as you have seen that Frederick William Clare was originally brought up as Frederick William Murray. Family (his brother) Thomas William Murray told me and of course my father (Allan Thomas Murray) that the family had a big fight and he didnt say why. Only that Fred Changed his surname to clare and Catherine and Fred no longer spoke with family.
Fred has signed "Their" mothers death certificate and arranged the funeral as Tom was at war at the time.
I have those originals.
I hold the birth certificate of Thomas Murray Senior (Who is father of Thomas William and step father or father???? of Frederick clare) There is also a sister Catherine Murray that Grandad said that also stopped speaking to family. Annie (fred's Mother) died in 1943 I have original docs on this too. Catherine Married a Brichard.
I have lots of notes tracking Fred down ... He worked for the railway at Euston Station as a young boy. Yes I have seen the birth/Baptism of Frederick Clare - Father Frederick and Monther Annie Clare. It is in amongst my research papers. Id love to talk more. Lynne Murray (thomas Murrays Grandaughter/Fred's Great Niece.
Do you have any photos????
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Hi Lynne,Unless some sort of proof comes to light I don't think that Frederick William Clare was the son of Annie Murray nee Sewell. Annie married Thomas on June 13th 1897. Katherine was born in 1900. According to the 1911 census Annie was staying with her mother, she had no children with her. Thomas was with his parents and had Katherine with him (aged 11). If Frederick were Annie's son - where was he? he would have been only two years old.On the Murray census it is stated that Thomas was married and had two children but only one still living and one had died.
As we know Frederick did register Annie's death and said that he was her son, but, if this was the case how come he didn't know that her deceased husband's name was Thomas or what his occupation was. I think that he may have just said that he was her son. There was John and Rose Murray living in the same house as him, maybe they were related to Annie, I would like to find out who their parents were.( Just because William's mothers name was Annie doesn't mean it was Annie Murray. Annie Murray was my grandmothers sister and I grew-up knowing that she died in a mental hospital where had been admitted after her husband died in about 1912. (The story went that she was so heartbroken that she lost her mind) I think that I might have heard if she had had a child with someone else whilst married to Thomas !! just doesn't make sense.
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Oh this is all so interesting and thank you for your speedy response. I have spent hours trying to trace the birth of Frederick William Clare (b 20 May 1909). This is the key I think. I have the wedding certificate and it says on there that his father's name was Frederick Clare (railway porter). The latter was born 16 Oct 1883 and married twice. There is a mystery witness at the Clare/Swinchatt wedding, ie F C Bradbrook. Any idea who s/he is? Frederick's daughter and my client have the DNA match. From this tree it has to be a Clare family match so I think Frederick Clare was Frederick William's father. There is also another Clare match with another Clare cousin, male, who is descended via Caroline Clare, daughter of Francis and Caroline Clare nee Ward.
Any chance you can do a DNA?
Can you send me a personal message please? I am not allowed to message you until I have posted three responses.
Rhiannon
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Hi Lynne
I am new to this site but not family history research so keep losing the posts and am not sure to whom I am replying!
I do agree that we need Frederick William Murray or Frederick William Clare or Frederick William Sewell's birth certificate.
Frederick William Clare's daughter has taken a DNA but she does not reply to my messages on another site. I will try again and ask her what she knows but am not holding my breath!
Rhiannon
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Hi all
I now have details of the death of Frederick William Clare which confirms (1) dob 20 May 1909, and gives place of birth as Holborn. He died Basingstoke, 1998. Occupation: retired taxi driver. I have found a birth registration for a Frederick Clare in Holborn but July/Aug/Sept quarter. I have ordered this to see if, for whatever reason, he was registered late rather than, as I thought, maybe not at all. I will keep you posted.
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Hello Ladies,
Please dont forget that I have the same frustration as you both.
I cannot 'ignore' the fact that my Grandfather and Father repeated the family story over and over that Frederick was 'Thomas Williams' brother, son of Annie but due to a family dispute Frederick changed his name to clare.
Now it is possible that Frederick was of another father... and IT ALL CAME OUT prior to his marriage and therefore he changed his name "back to his real fathers name".
I still think we are all connected just cannot for the life of me work it out.
In answer to your question Betty.. I would put money on the fact that FREDERICK DID know the husbands name and occupation but refused to acknowledge it. WILL WE EVER KNOW!
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Yes. I have on order birth cert for Frederick Clare, mother's maiden name Sewell. It should be ready 28 Sept so maybe I will have more info then but it may be another dead end!
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fantastic, I have thomas William Murray's Birth certificate and marriage certificate and Thomas and Annie's Marriage Certificate and yes Betty is right that they were both (Annie and THomas Senior) were stated as being 18 years old when married in 1897.
I cannot find when THomas Senior Died and Yes Annie was in Cane Hill Hospital when she died in 1943. I have the original Death card and also sent one to Betty (as a nice gesture).
If anyone can find details of Thomas Seniors Death I am happy to order it to gather more information.
lynne.
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Ok ... this is cat among the pigeons stuff! I now have the birth certificate of Frederick William Clare. He was born 20 May 1909 at 8 Dundee Buildings, Clerkenwell, Holborn (There is an earlier post which mentions Dundall Buildings). His father was Frederick Clare, Railway car-man and his mother Annie Clare, nee Sewell. I rather suspect the two were not married. It would appear from court records that Annie's husband, Thomas Murray, did time in HM Prisons. Petty theft. Records state he was aged 19 and a news vendor. Year: 1898 Date: 19 Apr 1898 Court: Clerkenwell Place: London.
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I really cannot see that Annie who was married to Thomas Murray would have been going back and forth between two men. (Frederick being born in 1909 and another son Thomas being born in 1912) I think it is more likely that this Annie wasn't the mother of Frederick William Clare. William Sewell had three daughters named/or called Annie, the first was with his first wife along with another daughter named Alice. The second was Annie sometimes called Annette (she was the one married to Thomas Murray).Then the third was born on or about 1881, she is the one that I was looking for originally, I thought then that she was born in 1887 that was because on the 1901 census they had transposed Annie and Sarah's ages. This Annie could well have had another name and just have been known as Annie ( there are quite a lot of Mary-Ann's born about then). Maybe she was the mother of Frederick Clare.?? The last time that I spoke to my aunt before she died she assured me that there were two of my grandmothers sisters named Annie apart from the one from her fathers first marriage. I wonder if we will ever find the true facts about the family.
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I have found Catherine Murray's baptism. This shows her mother as Hannah, another variant of Annie. Catherine went on to marry Albert Brichard, the two lived in Noel Road - a few doors away from John Royden Murray and Rose Murray. Catherine died in 1985 and her will is listed. This may give further information. She is also on the 1939 register with another entry at her abode unavailable for viewing so maybe a child. No sign of her husband.
I would think maybe Annie and Frederick Clare had a liaison and she then went back to Thomas Murray. It would seem Frederick grew up in this household but family attest that there was a rift - possibly due to the paternity issue? Conjecture on my part. I do know DNA tests show match with descendants of Francis and Caroline Clare so Frederick William and Grace Clare's daughter, another descendant with whom I am in contact and my friend.
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Do you know were the parents of John Royden Murray and Rose Murray nee Thomas. I have a lot of Murrays in my tree, also my great x2 grandmother's maiden name was Thomas.
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Hi Socialite I have just read your message and pleased to hear that you have found a marriage for Annie Sewell and Frederick Clare.I have never managed to find it. Would you please let me have the details of this marriage. (where,when ages parents etc.) Rather looks at the moment as if it could have been Annies sister Annie (confusing I know two sisters both called Annie). By the way I think that the Clares and the Murrays and Sewells were probably connected for many years I have a Lucy Ckare in my tree from way back in the 1700's. married to a Murray.
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So sorry my mistake. I should have written birth and not marriage. I have the birth certificate of Frederick Clare, 20th May 1909. Parents: Frederick and Annie Clare (formerly Sewell). The subsequent evidence I have matches the dob of Frederick Clare Jnr but I have been unable to find a marriage. I surmise that the two never wed as she was at the time married to Thomas Murray. I have found a baptism for their daughter, Catherine so b 19th Dec 1899, baptized 11 Jan 1900 at St Paul's Clerkenwell. Parents Thomas and Hannah Murray (Hannah another version of Ann(e)). Thomas, News Vendor.
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I still can't believe that Annie Sewell was the same Annie Sewell who was married to Thomas Murray (as I said before the two Annies might well have been sisters). My aunt told me that there were two Annies (sisters of my grandmother) My aunt remembered visiting Annie in the mental home and remembered the other Annie as well. It just doesn't make any sense that Annie would have had an affair with Frederick Clare then been so devastated when her husband Thomas died that she "lost her mind" and was admitted to a mental hospital where she spent the rest of her life.My aunt passed away last year, so I can't ask her anymore.
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It could be that this is how Annie's stay in the hospital was explained to family. It may or may not be entirely correct but who knows?
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I am happy to announced that I have found the death details of Thomas Murray born 10 June 1879 who married Annie Sewell 0n 13th June 1897. It has taken me nearly 10 years to find this info. Thomas Murray dies on 16th January 1919 on board Gen Hosp Ship Abbassia, Egypt. Unfortunately he died of Apendicitis after surviving WWI. He was in the British Army a Private in 1st Garrison Btn Essex Reg Number 22105. He was a part of the EEF (Egyption Expeditionary Force) His effects were distributed to his Widow Annie Murray and Daughter Catherine - very interesting that his son Thomas William Murray (born 1912) was not listed??? THOUGHTS would this be because he is under 18 years (?) or does this possibly give the thought that he MAY NOT be recognised as his son (Thomas is on his birth certificate as father). Thomas Snrs mother is noted ON MILITARY RECORDS as Mrs Elizabeth Caroline (reversed) Murray of 72 Ferndale Road South Tottenham (Correct and verified via family history and Voters Register). I am not a full member of Ancestry.com so cant get into any further details which is a shame so therefore I cannot find when he enlisted. Well at least now we know how and when my GG Grandad died and he can be respectfully be remembered. Now to find His father James Murray - I have a lot of his mothers details. Any help would be appreciated.
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I have no idea but Rose is living with Grace at 43 Noel Road (Fred's Wife) and being a murray is confusing me......
My grandparents were John Royden Murray and Rose Murray nee Thomas. As I do not know a great deal about our family history, it would be great if you could help me gain some knowledge?
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John Roydon Murray.
Hello Bobby, Yes these two have been a real mystery for us. Do you known their parents names and maybe we can connect with the missing links we have. Lynne. Lets hope we are related.
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Hello Lynne and thanks for your response. My granddads parents, I believe were Joseph Murray d.o.b poss 1866 married to Charlotte Sophia Sanderson.
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Hello again Lynne. I think the d.o.b for Joseph Murray is wrong 1866. He may have been born 1891 with his father possibly a Joseph C Murray born 1866. Hope this helps.
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My grandparents were John Royden Murray and Rose Murray nee Thomas.
As I do not know a great deal about our family history, it would be great if you could help me gain some knowledge?
My granddads parents, I believe were Joseph Murray d.o.b poss 1866 married to Charlotte Sophia Sanderson.
Do you have the birth certificate for John confirming his parents names or his marriage certificate confirming fathers name?
MURRAY, JOHN ROYDEN mmn SANDERSON
1909 D Quarter in LONDON CITY Volume 01C Page 6
1911 census has this John Murray born 1910 London City parents
Martin & Charlotte Murray, he has three older siblings
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XWG2-9DX
From GRO indexes All have mmn Sanderson
MURRAY, MARTIN JAMES mmn SANDERSON
1902 J Quarter in HOLBORN Volume 01B Page 702
MURRAY, ARTHUR CHARLES mmn SANDERSON
1904 D Quarter in LONDON CITY Volume 01C Page 8
MURRAY, JOSEPH FRANCIS SANDERSON
1907 J Quarter in LONDON CITY Volume 01C Page 7
This is appears to be Martin & Charlotte’s marriage entry
Marriages Jun 1901
BALLARD Amy Rosina Bethnal G. 1c 381
Clements George Bethnal Green 1c 381
MURRAY Martin Bethnal G. 1c 381
SANDERSON Charlotte Bethnal G 1c 381
Year 1930 & 1931 Electoral Register
Polling district or place St Sepulchre
Address 3 Union Place EC 1
Arthur Charles Murray
John Royden Murray
Charlotte Murray
Martin James Murray
Ada & John THOMAS (same address 1930) and Ada Thomas (1931)
Death of Martin Snr.
Martin MURRAY Age 54
Mar 1918 District London City Volume 1C Page 16
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Lynne, I’m sorry all I have is an old scribbled piece of paper from one of my cousins. It does mention Rose had a brother called John. So that fits the 3 union place address. Thanks to you I now know, my great grandfather was Martin Murray and my grandad John Royden Murray had three older brothers.
Anything else you may find grateful to you. Thank you.
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1923 Electoral address 8 Union Place
Charlotte Murray
Joseph Francis Sanderson
Elizabeth Sanderson
I think Joseph Francis is Charlotte’s brother and they are together on 1891 census
James Sanderson Head Married Bookbinder London, Middlesex
Mary Sanderson Wife Married London, Middlesex
Charlotte Sanderson Daughter Single Bookfolder London, Middlesex
Joseph Sanderson Son Single Farrier London, Middlesex
James Sanderson Son London, Middlesex
Herbert Sanderson Son London, Middlesex
William Sanderson Son London, Middlesex
Arthur Sanderson Son London, Middlesex
John Sanderson Son London, Middlesex
The birth entries from GRO indexes
SANDERSON, CHARLOTTE SOPHIA mmn QUICK
1872 M Quarter in LONDON CITY Volume 01C Page 25
SANDERSON, JOSEPH FRANCIS mmn QUICK
1875 M Quarter in LONDON CITY Volume 01C Page 26
Marriage entry of parents
Mar 1874
Sanderson James Holborn 1b 747
Quick Mary Holborn 1b 747
Will take another look tomorrow
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BobbyMurray - you probably have the deaths of your grandparents John & Rose but just in case you don’t.......
John Roydon MURRAY Born 10 10 1909
Jun 1987 Bromley Kent
Register number 487 Volume 11 Page 990
Rose MURRAY Born 21 10 1912
Dec 1994 District Bromley District number 2221B
Register number B23 Entry number 152
John’s brother Joseph died age 5, his death entry
Joseph Francis MURRAY Age 5
1912 S Quarter in LONDON CITY Volume 01C Page 15
It looks as if Martin & Charlotte had another child who possibly died in infancy
MURRAY, CATHERINE MARY mmn SANDERSON
1903 S Quarter in HOLBORN Volume 01B Page 721
MURRAY, CATHERINE MARY age 0
1904 J Quarter in LONDON CITY Volume 01C Page 19
1939 Register is free to search
London
Charlotte Murray 1872
Martin J Murray 1902
Death entry
Charlotte MURRAY Age 77
Dec 1949 Islington Volume 5C Page 916
Martin James Murray
Age 19 Born city of London
Service number 529093
Regiment Royal Tank Corps
Enlistment date 15 Jul 1921
Tank corps number 529093
Record set Royal Tank Corps Enlistment Records, 1919-1934
Next of kin named mother 8 Union Place, Aldersgate, London E.C.1
This record set can be found on F M P you need a subscription to view
Martin James Murray of 68 Noel Rd Islington London
Died 07 Feb 1968 Probate date 29 May 1968
From the link I posted from familysearch for the 1911 census John Royden Murray father
Martin Murray bn 1865 London Finsbury, London occ Ware Houseman Glass,
he died 1918
Not found Martin on 1901 census ??? - this might be him on 1905 Electoral Register City of London
Martin MURREY address 38 Bartholomew Close
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QJN4-86X2
Should you wish to order any birth, marriage of death certificates to verify that they are the correct persons certificates can be ordered from GRO https://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates/login.asp
certificates cost £11.00 each
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Lynne, thank you for taking the time of looking in to my grand parents etc most of it unknown to me. A lot to take in and if you find anything more please let me know. Something to tell my children and grandson.
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Hello Bobby, hope your well. My name is also John Murray and I am the great grandson of John Royden Murray. My great grandfather John Royden Murray and Rose Murray had 3 children, and one of them ( my grandfather) is still alive and doing well (also Named John Royden Murray).
My grandfather recently showed me our family tree which led me to this forum - would be good to catch up.
Best wishes,
John
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Hello John and (bobby) Lynne Murray here again after all this time.
John how far does your tree go back as I cannot get any further back than James Murray marrying a Mary Mason.
Therefore my Tree:
1800 ???? James Murray father of Micheal Married Mary MASON marr in 1819) Lincolns inn Fields
1830 Micheal Murray son of James and Mary married Johanna Brian in 1851 parents of
1856 James Murray who married and Caroline "Elizabeth" Murray nee Diall in 1879 Parents of
1879 Thomas Murray (son of James Murray ) married Annie Sewell in 1897
1912 Thomas William Murray (Son of Thomas Murray and Annie Sewell) - half brother to
Frederick William Clare (additional Son) Frederick by Frederick William Clare Snr - This is who connects the John Roydon and Rose Murray by address only at this stage in Noel Rd)
then finally there is my father (For your Info)
1938 Allan Murray only child and son of Thomas W Murray and Elsie May Wigger.
1966 Me
I am hoping we can somehow mix and match the murrays to get a family connection ie Cousins somehow.
Thanks.
Let hope we can find a connection.
Lynne.