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General => The Common Room => Topic started by: Tephra on Tuesday 28 September 10 10:24 BST (UK)
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Welcome to this weeks Scavenger Hunt and Wiggy's got a good one for you.......... a bit of a puzzle but you'll be able to get your teeth into it.
Good Luck and Good Hunting
Barbara
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David DUNCAN – born Plymouth, Devon, 5 Jan 1825 , died Victoria, Aus. 30 Sep 1875
Parents - David (born Fife) 1796 (or 91?) – 16 Dec 1877 - would love to sort out his birth too! His own consistently-given age leads back to 1796 - - age given by his daughter at his death suggests 1791.
Grace (nee Farley, born Plymouth I think) 1794 – 18 Aug 1852 – and hers!
Siblings: Elizabeth, 1822, Harriet 1827 - ?1845, Archibald 1834 - 1838, Caroline, 1838
Caroline married Henry Jenkins 1864 had one son Henry 1865. Father, David (David 1,) found living with them 1861 & 1871 censuses. Henry Jenkins seems to have died before 1871 census!
Now - the real crux of the matter!
David 1, senior was in the RN.
David 2 , junior followed father but served only a couple of months it seems, as a 'boy' in 1839, for either 2 or 12 months?? – joined the merchant navy - still searching high and low for info.
Muster ticket shows him leaving on a ship in about 1845/6, aged 21- very hard to read - ticket 32069 (??)
– we believe he jumped ship in Victoria
– married 15 Oct 1849, Elizabeth Hughes, (arrived July 1849 on “Hope”), Geelong Presb – witnesses John Taylor and Mary-Ann Hughes (sister – her mark)
– next heard of with children’s birth certificates – first two children born Geelong – third, Henry, born 1858 near Ballarat. –
– Offspring – Elizabeth 1851 – 64
– Will’m H 1852 – 64
– Henry 1858 – 1927
– Caroline 1859 – 1937
– David 1861 – 61
– Janet 1864 – 1925
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– he died in 1875, buried St Arnaud. Death cert. Reg 15216, says Mariner and Miner
– His wife, Elizabeth, is buried at Beaufort 1868. Reg 3168 ? – hard to read.
****** Would love to know more about David 2’s naval and merchant seaman records - presumably kept in England - what ship he was on and when he arrived in Victoria – and at which port – Portland, Geelong (seems likely ) or Port Phillip.
Would also like any other info about him, and Elizabeth, in Victoria – I can’t find any mention of him in local papers to date.
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Thanks for putting this up Barbara - just marking my spot to find my way back!
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Royal Navy Records can be downloaded from the National Archives website for £3.50
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/documentsonline/royal-navy-service.asp
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You will need to look for Grace's maiden name possibly being Farleigh, loads of that name in Devon.
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Thanks Bearkat and Jaywit.
Have been to the navy records - not exhaustively but reasonably thoroughly - have David Senior's record of service on three ships - still looking for his will. No sign of David Junior. I am presuming he signed on in Plymouth - later his home port was Liverpool - for merchant navy I think.
Royal Marines were not merchant navy were they - I know they aren't now - were they then??
Jaywit - thanks for the suggestion - will do so!
Edit: Have done so - no joy - never mind - I already have her marriage and death records - so I know she was there! Under Farley too!
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Don't know wether you have tried this for Merchant Seaman's records.
http://www.liverpoolmuseums.org.uk/maritime/archive/displayGuide.aspx?sid=47
You will need to click through and see what records are kept where.
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Hi Jaywit,
I wrote to the remote enquiries person re merchant seamen and received a reply directing me to Kew archives and also to this address:
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/records/looking-for-person/merchantseamanbefore1857.htm?WT.lp=rg-3158
Been looking at this link but the records for the dates I want are not online and they suggested a visit to Kew! (Just a tad far!) I have asked a friend in London and when and if he goes to Kew, he will look stuff up for me.
Anyone else visiting Kew in the meantime with a little time to spare would be much appreciated! - All the info I have about this bloke, David Duncan 2, is all in the initial post.
The Liverpool link you have given points me back to the Kew archives - apparently Merchant Navy records have been gathered there for the times I want.
It is very tricky and circuitous!!! ;D ;D But thanks for taking the interest and time, and thanks for the suggestions. ;)
Wiggy :)
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At least you know now where the records are.
I think if you can't find anyone who is going to Kew ( have you tried asking on the Armed Forces board? I know technically Merchant Navy isn't Armed Forces, but you never know). The NA have I think a list of researchers, they do charge but someone knowing where to look may find things easily without the cost being too extortionate.
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Yep - I put up a request on that board and sent PM to someone from there who seemed to know about these things - but after doing that realized he'd not been on RC for about 4 months - so still waiting a reply there. ;)
No joy from anyone on that board! :'(
Wiggy :)
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hello :)
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Hello Toni, any ideas?
This goes into some depth as to what Merchant Seaman information is available.
http://www.barnettmaritime.co.uk/main.htm
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Looking at the 1851 census for male Farley's born Plymouth area about the same time as Grace there is one who says born Plymouth, he is living in Exeter, then there appears to be a family born Plymton St Mary ( not far from Plymouth)
I think you can E Mail and request PR look ups from here.
http://www.plymptonstmary-opc.com/lookups.html
So maybe worth doing if only to eliminate that village.
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Hi Wiggy
You didn't mention it but I take it you have David senior's marriage to Grace?
5 Sep 1814 St Andrew, Plymouth
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Other siblings for David junior, baptised St Andrew, Plymouth-
Mary Ann 25 Jun 1815 (father's occ mariner)
Grace 6 Dec 1816 (father's occ seaman)
Henry 4 Jun 1819 (father's occ mariner)
David's own baptism was 5 Jan 1825 so either he was baptised the day he was born (quite possible) or the date you have might be baptism rather than birth?
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Just for completion in case you haven't got the actual baptism dates -
Elizabeth 20 Nov 1822(father's occ mariner)
Harriet 13 May 1827 (father's occ Master, Royal Navy)
no sign of Archibald or Caroline
Added Can see why no later children- looks like the family moved from the parish of St Andrew to St Charles the Martyr at some point
Added again
Looks like Mary Ann didn't make it - buried St Andrews 29 Jun 1817
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In 1851 David and Grace have a 13 year old daughter Caroline with them so I guess there are more children.
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I'm sure you're right Jaywit - I just can't find the parish records for them ::) Have you found the family in 1841? I'm struggling there.....
Also - it looks like they didn't follow the traditional Scottish naming pattern for children either because I couldn;t find David senior's birth on Scotland;s people giving Henry as Dad and Grace or Elizabeth as Mum :(
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No I can't see them in 1841, I wondered if David was away at sea and Grace didn't fill in the census, or answer the door to the enumerator.
I think we should be able to find marriages as they should be after 1837. I'll look how many Duncan marriages there were in Plymouth.
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Henry Duncan married Joanna Harris Mar. qtr 1847 in Plymouth ref. 9/440
They are on 1851.
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Possible marriage for oldest daughter Grace just pre registration -
Grace Duncan/Stephen Cumming 19 Mar 1837 East Stonehouse
Just seen your post - there were several Henry Duncans born around the same time so that might need checking too...
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definitely looks like Henry is a solid family name. There's just one match in Scotland's People for a David Duncan with father Henry between 1790 and 1796. Anyone got any credits? Or perhaps Wiggy will risk a few bob on it when she logs on
Added: Got to nip off and cook dinner. Back later, hopefully
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No ScotlandsPeople credits here.
The Henry I found was a mariner ( OK so were half of Plymouth)
Stephen and Grace are on 1851 as Cummings, youngest child is called Archibald, so looks like they are using some family names.
Stephen was a mariner as well, much older than Grace.
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Grace is on 1871 as Grace Cunning, a widow, nurse, in Plymouth.
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Stephen and Grace are on 1841 in Plymouth with 2 eldest children as Cuming.
Just got to work out what the 1861 transcription of their name was ;D ;D ;D
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Got them in 1861 Cuming again.
Archibald ( Andrew) is with them ( I suspect an earlier Archibald died before this one was born).
Also with them is eldest daughter Elizabeth with her husband Edmund Allin.
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There is a tree on Ancestry which gives David Duncan Jrs wife as:
Elizabeth Hugh, born 3 Oct 1828, Madron, Cornwall.
There are photos of two of the children - Henry George b. 1858 and Caroline b. 1859.
GS
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Hi folks,
Those earlier baptisms are new finds Angela - great! I am not sure sure that these belong to the right family - are you??? Just double checking doncha know. I suppose they could have been gone to their own nests by 1841.
We had great difficulty with the 1841 census but then found it -Kris found it - David was at sea and Grace was there - but without any of the first children before Elizabeth.
I have Grace on 1851 with David - Grace died 1852 and David went to live with daughter Caroline Jenkins
1861 His granddaughter Amelia Boon was with them - Elizabeth's daughter - Elizabeth and her husband William Boon, m 1846, lived in London - found trace of them recently.
1871 Grace has David and her son Henry with her in census - don't know where her husband Henry was - at sea or dead - dead I think - one letter on census looks like 'W'
All other family marriages are new to me - (well they would be - didn't know those children existed) - but it makes sense to fill in the gap between marriage and Elizabeth. (One reason for trying for Grace's birth was that it seems she may have been only 14 at marriage - someone found a possible birth in 1801 She was 53 at death in 1852 so someone can't count or that birth is incorrect! (Informant at death was Joan Westlake - ??)
Re David and Grace's son Archibald - I think he may have died 1838 and I think Harriet may have died in 1845?? - found death records but can't verify them.
Re David Senior - have a possible birth for him in 1796 to David - in Auchterderran in 1896 no mother named - this is a reference to David and his wife - possible reference to him being born to David and his wife unnamed from Sillytown! Caroline gave info at David Snr's death - said he was 86 making his birth 1791 - David himself always said he was 5 years younger than that birth date! Who do we trust? Sounds as if this could be wrong anyway -
You point me in the direction and I will use my Scotland's people credits!
David Junior married Elizabeth Hugh from Penznace, Cornwall - in Geelong Victoria - and they stayed here. Henry is my great grandfather! Wonder if it is my Ancestry you are looking at!!!
Great finds people!
Wiggy
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Just reviewing what I have to date for David senior.
11 births of David to Various Duncan families in Fife between 1791 and 1797 - for some reason the one I latched onto was the one 3/4/1796 - which is David born to David and 'wife' of Sillytown near Auchterderran - the birth record says 'and wife' with no name given.
(At the time I found this one, I didn't know of earlier children and though David senior was using Scottish naming pattern and naming his first male child after grandfather also David - confused?? I am. Now we know there is an older male child - Henry, but like you I can't find any Henrys having a son David in Fife at the right time)
There is another David, baptised 14 Aug 1791 Cupar, Fife to George and Janet (Scott). (this year would match death age given by his daughter in 1877)
There are a George and a Janet further down the family so this could be right :-\ - and David 1 could have been fudging his age all his life?! :-\
- I have found five marriages for 'David' in Fife between 1791 and 1797. - Just supposing his father's name to have been David also.
- 2 of them to Elizabeths both in 1797 - have the benefit of names being repeated. Others were to Catherine, 1794 and 2 Margarets, 1791 and 1795. Neither of those female names is repeated down the line so I think a bit iffy. All of them are quite close to Auchterderran which is where I found the baptism record - which I can't prove is the one I want anyway!! By the way - each succeeding generation has had a David
Hey ho!! Round and round we go! ;D
Wiggy :)
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Hi folks,
Those earlier baptisms are new finds Angela - great! I am not sure sure that these belong to the right family - are you??? Just double checking doncha know. I suppose they could have been gone to their own nests by 1841.
Hi Wiggy
Going to be offline for a while as have lost broadband connection and this link is flakey.....
Those baptisms are definitely yours Wiggy. The follow on from the marriage in 1814 - parents David and Grace Duncan (mariner) - and they continue with one of the children you do know about. Am sending you a PM
Back later I hope
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I don’t know if Grace would have been 14 at marriage but I don’t think it was impossible If she was 14 at marriage then she would have had to gain permission from her parents to marry there doesn’t seem to be mention of this on the marriage details you have and it wasn’t by special licence so something is clearly amiss.
Her age at death was what the informant believed her to be.
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I don’t know if Grace would have been 14 at marriage but I don’t think it was impossible If she was 14 at marriage then she would have had to gain permission from her parents to marry there doesn’t seem to be mention of this on the marriage details you have and it wasn’t by special licence so something is clearly amiss.
Her age at death was what the informant believed her to be.
My gg grandmother married age 15 in 1842 - she claimed to be of 'full age'. There is no doubt about her actual age.
Jan ;)
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Which Grace are we talking about ??? Wiggy thinks the mother was born in 1794 so marriage in 1814 would have meant she was 20 - could easily have been 21.
The daughter Grace was born in 1816 so marriage in 1837 would again mean age 20 or 21.....
Added: Sorry Toni - just reread Wiggy's later post :-[ The original post had Grace as born in 1794......
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I am not sure which Grace she is referring to the one with possible birth in 1801
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Grace wife of David I'm talking about!! Grace's given age was 40 in 1841 census - but in 1851 census she is give as born about 1798, i.e. 52 - can't find her yet - - - - and when she died a year later the age given concurs with that. Was she fibbing in 1841??
And just to add insult to injury - looking at the stuff I've recorded on the family tree, I have a birth and baptism date down as 1794!!! :o :o Wonder where I got that from - another rellie or IGI?? more checking! . . . . . . .
1841 Census reference which I've had great trouble seeing is - HO107 piece 271 Folio 16 Page 26 (Once again thanks to Kris.) this will find Grace at home with some of the children - we know David was serving on a Navy ship at the time. 'Cockatrice' I do believe.
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The ages in 1841 were rounded down to the nearest 5 for any person over the age of 14 so in reality she could be 44 and not 40 in 1841
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Nope - can't find where that came from and I don't think t is right either. Don't know why but I just don't think 1794 is correct. As Inspector Barnaby - or someone - says, 'it's in me waters'!
Toni - that makes sense then! But I still can't see her being baptised (or even born) about 1798-1801. by whatever spelling! did they change the system by 1851 do you know??
Edit to add Grace is in 1841 census as Duncen
also found out who the giver of info for Grace's death was - her neighbour, Joan Westlake - as seen in 1851 census!
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Yes by 1851 the census included ages what the person was on the census night
What did she give as her p.o.b in 1851 ?
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A couple of thoughts.
You are happy to think Grace was born c1798, so you need Angela to come back online to see if she had access to any Plymouth PRs from that date.
If she can't find Grace's baptism then at least you are narrowing down where she may have been baptised.
In the mean time I would try and see if you can contact the person who has Plymton St Mary PRs to eliminate that village.
Thinking about David and Fife.
My guess would be he was from a coastal village/town.
So any baptisms you have you need to look at a map to see where they were.
Scratching around online I have found references to people looking for Duncan ancestors from here.
http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/sct/FIF/parishes/FerryportOnCraig/index.htm
So a coastal village, maybe a starting point.
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back again folks..... broadband seems to be ok for the moment ::)
The PRs I had access to were from Devon FHS and they started in 1812, so can't shed light on Grace's baptism, sorry...
It looks like Grace and David were living in St Andrews parish and then later Charles the martyr - both big parishes as far as I can see. Has Wiggy tried a specific request on the devon Board in case someone has the fiche or can get to the RO?
Thinking about David and Grace's marriage in 1814 - the transcripts may not have all the information. It may be worth asking someone to check the original in case there's a 'with consent of parents' clause?
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Sooo...
In 1841 we have Grace (40), Elizabeth (19), Harriett(14) and Caroline(3) living in Charles the martyr parish, Plymouth.
In 1851 we have David (55 born Fifeshire), Grace (53 born Plymouth) and Caroline (13 born Plymouth) still living in the same parish. If accurate, this makes Grace's birth 1797/8 ???
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Thanks Angela, that clears up that you haven't got the PRs that would cover Grace's baptism.
On the ones you have is there any other Farley marriages, burials etc?
Just trying to think that there may be other family members if she was from St Andrew's parish.
Anything to perhaps give Wiggy some clues.
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OK David was in the RN i take it this means the Royal Navy - i doubt h would have jumped ship he may have gone AWOL and then the records would show which port he was last on the ship it i.e. where it docked when he went AWOL but that is besides the point lets begin at the beginning for that's always a good place to start
lets consult the oracle
was he an officer or a rating i.e. anothermember of crew not an officer?
if he was a rating were not employed by the RN permanently until 1853 so you will need to consult the muster books and paylists 1667-1878 at TNA they are organised by ship name and ate so it is necessary t have this bit of information. once found the records will detail the previous ship the rating served on along with the next ship he went to. TNA ref: ADM 31-41 & 115 & 119
certificates of service in ADM 29 is partially indexed online and contains certificates of service for rating s seeking pensions or medals from 1802 - 1894
prior to 1836 there was no automatic right to pensions for officers and they were awarded to worthy indivisual only five institutions were responsible for payment of pensions
the navy pay office
the chatham chest
the royal Greenwich hospital
the charity for the payment of widows of sea officers
the compassionate list
i guess you google them to see how to search them or visit the TNA website
talking about Greenwich - the maritime museum there holds records of some seamans services they have a web address.
the marine society was founded in 1756 their records are at Greenwich and include registers of boys who were sent to sea from the Society 1756-1958
if he was a merchant seaman systematic records were not kept until 1835 however you could try crew lists in series BT 98 they are arranged by relevant port and are without a name index
the corporation of Trinity house petition was responsible for providing charitable support to mariners and their families in order to receive support the mariner would have to submit a petitions, these petitions survive from 1787 - 1854 at the Guildhall libray
local archives may have records for pauper boys forced to serve on ships as apprentices BT 150 at TNA has an index for apprentices between 1824 & 1953 although few indentures survive
finally if he was royal marine you need to establish what division he was in portsmouth, plymouth, chatham or woolwich (usually it was the nearest one to their home)
ADM 171 at TNA has records of medals they may have been awarded and this will give you the division and service number.
if you know the ship refer to the Navy list as up until 1947 those serving on a particular ship would have belonged to the same division of the ship.
the attestation forms 1790-1925 are mostly arranged by date of discharge apart from chatham then there are description books 1750-1940 and service record's (1842-1936) discharge books for Plymouth are TNA ref ADM 185 other than TNA you could try the royal marine museum in Southsea (google it)
AMEN
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http://genuki.cs.ncl.ac.uk/DEV/Plymouth/StAndrew/index.html
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Thanks Angela, that clears up that you haven't got the PRs that would cover Grace's baptism.
On the ones you have is there any other Farley marriages, burials etc?
Just trying to think that there may be other family members if she was from St Andrew's parish.
Anything to perhaps give Wiggy some clues.
Loads of Farleys in devon.... ::) I'll have a plod through and see what I can find in St Andrews... back later....
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Thanks Angela, that clears up that you haven't got the PRs that would cover Grace's baptism.
On the ones you have is there any other Farley marriages, burials etc?
Just trying to think that there may be other family members if she was from St Andrew's parish.
Anything to perhaps give Wiggy some clues.
Thanks Angela
Loads of Farleys in devon.... ::) I'll have a plod through and see what I can find in St Andrews... back later....
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Hi all,
Up early before the kids wake up so I can think clearly!!
Toni - you may be getting confused with the two Davids!!! ;D ;D ;) I find it easy to get confused myself!!
David 1 in Plymouth married to Grace - he was royal Navy - he rose to Staff Commander - no ship jumping for him - I have his record and the ships he sailed on. He was listed in censuses as on half pay - he stayed in Plymouth. No funny business there! (There is a thread for this David on the Devon lookups board.)
David 2 born Plymouth 21 Dec 1824/baptised 5 Jan 1825 - he joined RN briefly - in 1839.
He then joined Merchant navy and I have copy of his ships muster - pity it is not very legible! He joined when he was 20. Unfortunately the most illegible bit is a very important bit - i.e. the ship he was sailing on and what happened! - the ship jumping is our guess and family oral history.
His home port was Liverpool. On the ticket his age, 21, would make the date 1845/6 - he married in Geelong Australia in October 1849. The years in between are of vital importance!! - his Aust death certificate, 1875, say he was Mariner and Miner.
I've looked up the various seaman's registers etc and have been told I need to go to Kew Archives in England to look at hard copies - but I'm way down south here in Aus - (and it's a very frosty morning! ;) ;D :'( )
Re Grace and David's (1) marriage - I have a print out of that from the records just saying married in St Andrew Plymouth - no other details. (When I tried for Scottish marriage details for another family, I got a copy of the original sent to me - It didn't help at all with any details - so I haven't gone further with this to date - can I expect more than their names and date of marriage if I get the original of this one?? ) Although I am happy with the 1798 date, I can't seem to find any births to fit.
Thought - if one of the later children was baptised in the Presy church, (Archibald) could Grace have also been baptised in one?? - and would those records be available - I know early non conformist baptisms were not always recorded in the same manner - what do you think?
Thanks for ongoing help folks one and all.
Wiggy
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Toni - you have amazing knowledge of the Navy/seamen etc - you must been involved with this for your own family?? Thanks for that very detailed of resources. I'm printing it out for future reference!
Wiggy :)
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i expect the National Archives could do a search for you but obviously it will cost
trips between Aus and UK in those days didnt take days / hours but would take months so this would account for at least 18 months of that period ;D
if you can find the ships name it will be in their records if he jumped ship or not
can you scan and crop the important illegible parts of the document you have so we can attempt to decipher it?
it will help to narrow down Graces birth if you can find the birth of her last child and assume this is when she begun the menopause
I consulted the oracle for help with records some i knew and some i didnt
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Wiggy a marriage in 1814 won't give as much detail as one after 1837 when civil registration came into force.
It should give address in the sense it could say 'of this parish' or 'of xxxxx'
Now 'of this parish' only proves they had lived in the parish for the 3 weeks preceeding the marriage not that they came from that parish.
It should give the names of the witnesses, but very little else.
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Scottish and English records are hugely different in what they record, Wiggy. I think it would be worth getting the original of David and Grace's marriage in 1814 if you can. At that period, it should say if it was by banns or licence, also if by parental consent, and should also give at least one witness, which may be handy in terms of connecting up with other family. Definitely worth doing. If it turns out to be by licence then there may be other info available. Which reminds me, I have a CD of Devon licence info and will look at it just in case...
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Wiggy a marriage in 1814 won't give as much detail as one after 1837 when civil registration came into force.
It should give address in the sense it could say 'of this parish' or 'of xxxxx'
Now 'of this parish' only proves they had lived in the parish for the 3 weeks preceeding the marriage not that they came from that parish.
It should give the names of the witnesses, but very little else.
it should also say witnesses shouldnt it ??? or at least if one of the parties was a minor but then they would have had to declare this
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Grace's last child was Caroline in 1838 - (early menopause for her - still only makes her 42ish!!) Willl try for that marriage then - later! thanks for info! ;)
That's the trouble - it is the ship's name which we can't read!!! :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( Toni, I put the document up on the deciphering board a long time ago - because I received it as a photocopy, it is very poor quality and the folks said they couldn't do anything to help! :'( :'( Even though they are VERY good!
Have to give up for the day folks - have ortas to do with grandchildren.
Back later.
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What you have to bear in mind is that David could have been away from home for long periods.
So getting pregnant would depend on when and how often and for how long he was home.
This should, if you have his service record be relativly easy to work out when Grace could become pregnant.
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What you have to bear in mind is that David could have been away from home for long periods.
So getting pregnant would depend on when and how often and for how long he was home.
This should, if you have his service record be relativly easy to work out when Grace could become pregnant.
On the provio. That she was a good girl!
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Well Caroline was last child - and David was on Algerine in 1834ish, Wolverine in 1840 and Cockatrice in 1841 - don't know before that - but we have a goodly list of children now! He was made up to master in 1838 and first appears on census as staff commander in 1871 census - 1851 & 61 show him as Master on half pay - and obviously at home on census nights! and yes there are some fairly long gaps between children - presumably when he was at sea! ;)
Here's the illegible bit!! Illegible isn't it!! ;D :'( But he might have been in Ceylon in 1847!!!!!!
Wiggy :)
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That ship's muster is David jnr.
Have you asked on the decyphering board if anyone can read it?
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Yep! they couldn't! ;) I wonder if it is worth trying again now i know a bit more about posting and high resolutions etc - but it is still only a photocopy!
Yes it is David Jnr - he's the one I really want to peg. I really want to find him arriving in Victoria and find out what he was doing thereafter! So far I haven't been able to find anything about him in Aus apart from fathering children at regular intervals! His first two children were born in Geelong - so it is possible that he was serving around the Aus coast for a few years - then the kids started being born on the goldfields.
Did he jump ship to arrive here - or did he arrive legitimately and leave 'marinating' later to go mining??
Yes I'd like to find out David Sen's birth and ancestors, and more about his naval career - but it is Jnr I really want to know more about!!
Wiggy :)
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A little bit of information about HMS Algerine.
http://www.pdavis.nl/ShowShip.php?id=2329
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Looking at that scan does it say something about Ceylon.
Maybe luggage not ....... at Ceylon 1/7/1847?
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Yes - see post 54 - I think it does say Ceylon 1/7/1847.
That's fascinating reading about Algerine - lucky David Duncan Snr wasn't the master on that voyage - (or unlucky as it was well documented!!)
What is interesting about that muster ticket is that there is a dearth of info in the 'home' column of the last voyages the left columns seem to say 'Reported voyages 1845' out and home, and maybe the next two say 'Reported voyages 1847' out and home at the head of the columns?? Hard to read! :-\. But surely you'd report all voyages wouldn't you???
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Wiggy could be, so maybe he sailed out of Australia for a while after 1845.
Only settling down after he married.
There is a mention of HMS Wolverine in Feb. 1841 on that same website.
http://home.wxs.nl/~pdavis/Log_Dolphin.htm
So if David snr was onboard that ship in 1841 it would explain why he wasn't at home on census night.
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Wiggy...... where did you get the photocopy from?? Is it possible to get an 'original' pic of the document?
Sorry If I've missed a previous explanation about this. :D
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Wiggy, so Elizabeth arrived on the Hope in 1849.
Have you seen this?
http://specialistauctions.com/auctiondetails.php?id=1099542
I wondered if David was on board the Hope and he met Elizabeth onboard and only decided to settle down at that point.
Have you traced Elizabeth's background?
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Jaywit
- that bit you thought might say luggage not . . . - I'm wondering if it says voyage No4 . . . . . but can't read the next two words - maybe a port in Ceylon?? :-\ this is David Jnr!!
David Snr:
Yes I think we have that bit established - but he was on the 'Cockatrice' in 1841 not the Wolverine! but he was on a ship! Wolverine was 1840. and this is the other David we are talking about here! - senior. ;)
Junior didn't sign on to the merchant navy until 1845 aged 20/ and his home port was Liverpool I don't think he arrived in Aus much before 1849 - this ticket came from England and mentions 1847 on it. but he could well have sailed round the Aus coast for a couple of years after marriage - that was my new thought for tonight anyhow!
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There is mention of the Hope setting sail from Plymouth on here.
http://www.plymouthdata.info/Emigration-1849.htm
I'll look and see if I can find where the Cockatrice was in 1841.
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Same website. looks as though she was on her way to South America.
http://www.pdavis.nl/ShowShip.php?id=1252
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This explains a little about the rank of Master.
http://www.hmsrichmond.org/avast/customs.htm
So he wasn't actually in charge of the ship, but in charge of sailing it.
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Barbara
- I was sent the copy by a distant rellie when I first started out on the family history stuff a couple of years ago - I have lost contact with him unfortunately - he sent me the photocopy of his photocopy! Have been trying to reconnect with him lately!
I have looked at the passenger list of the 'Hope' arriving in Melbourne - no sign of David on it - nor on any ships arriving in Victoria according to the records - the family lore is that he jumped ship - don't know where that came from - my grandfather I imagine.
No Jaywit - hadn't seen that!
Elizabeth and her sister came together in 1849 arriving in July - they came from Penzance and I have their parents, grandparents and great-grandparents - all from around Penzance.
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Thanks for that Wiggy.
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Jaywit, You are a whizz!
From the look of that bit about the Algerine, the 'Master' seems to be several down from the Captain! but I also noticed that the Mate and Master were involved with that court-marshal.
I haven't been able to find out exactly when David Senior joined the navy yet - but if her was made Master in 1838, I presume he'd been around for a while!
Sorry if I'm being a bit slow here folks - I am having trouble assimilating all the info!! It is great - will take me days to get it all organised - ain't it wonderful to have so much info 150 + years later!!
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Another random thought.
David and Elizabeth married at the Presbyterian church in Geelong. Doesn't mean they were strict Presbyterians.
Scratching around online it looks as though there were many marriages there in 1849.
So what I am thinking is maybe it was the only church there at that time?
Maybe you can find that out from your end.
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Quite possibly - the family were fairly staunch C/E after that - but on the other hand one of David's brothers was baptised in Presy church in Plymouth! And maybe Elizabeth had some say in the matter! ;)
All grist to the mill - that I understand - but just where are you leading with this line of thinking Jaywit - 'cos I'm trying to keep up! ;D ;D You are a very fast worker!
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the wording of the marriage document says "I am a member of, or hold communion with the Presbyterian Church of Scotland' so quite possibly not an actual member!!
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There's a section on the founding of Geelong at
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~russellhudson/hud-geelong.htm
There's mention of churches in it.
Dee :)
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Dee Thanks for that, so Christ Church was founded in 1847.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christ_Church_Geelong
That still only gave them 2 choices and just because than said they were members of the church, well we all know what porkies there were on marriage certificates.
I wonder if Christ Church was considered a bit 'upmarket' and the vicar wasn't too keen on marrying a load of newcomers as it does look as though it was 1849 when the town exploded into life.
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Christ Church, Geelong has baptisms going back to 1843 and marriages to 1853 - how odd!! I digress!
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Wiggy Baptisms can take place anywhere, anytime ( you see that in private baptisms, ie. baptised at home in English PRs), but depending on the law, at least in England weddings could only take place if the church was liceinced, so possibly weddings couldn't take place until 1853 at Christ Church.
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I finally found something of help! ::)
It doesn't help that there was another David Duncan in Geelong in the 1840s........
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So he wasn't actually in charge of the ship, but in charge of sailing it.
so records wil be at Greenwich
and
Out of home would be the home part which he was assigned to which I stated earlier in the advice about searching records
Plymouth Portsmouth Chatham or Woolwich
Presumably Plymouth in this case
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Jaywit,
Maybe not!! Must be the case! (- but one the Anglican site I looked up it says Christ Church was an entity in 1843. It is the oldest built church still in constant use in the district. St Andrews Presy church started having baptisms and marriages both in 1840 - they must have a newer building now!?)
Dee,
It doesn't you are right - one of my biggest bugbears is that there seems to be some bigwig David Duncan who is local colonial secretary or some other high Gov't position, during the time I am looking!!! I turn him up all the time! never my man!
Toni
- David Junior - whose record we are talking about was Merchant Navy sailing out of Liverpool I believe - his muster ticket says home port Liverpool - but when I asked there they said go to Kew! (Kew in Victoria used to mean only one thing - the mental asylum!!! ;D ;D)
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Wiggy Kew is the home of the National Archives, on the outskirts of London, so it's quicker to say Kew than National Archives.
Greenwich, also on the outskirts of London is the home of the Maritime Museum.
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Yes - I wrote to the National Archives in Kew ;D ;D ;D ;D
- I have to visit personally! Have a friend in London who will ask there for me if he ever gets there - I'm to let him know when he tells me he is heading that way!
Been to Greenwich - wish I'd know what I needed to ask when I was there - but wasn't into family history at the time!! bother! ;) Too late she cried!!! :'(
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Toni,
So David's (juniors) record of the brief time he spent in the RN may well be at Greenwich, - is that what you are saying. (Or is it merchant navy at Greenwich - no RN surely! - just thinking aloud)
- I must write another letter!! this time to the Maritime Museum. I wonder if I will get more joy from them.
It may be worth it because there is another ancestor whose brief Naval history I am searching for also - might be able to get both at one fell swoop! that's another story! ;)
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Wiggy a bit more about the voyage of the Hope.
http://www.victorianweb.org/periodicals/iln/emigrantship.html
I know it sailed from Plymouth but I have been trying to find out if it's home port was Liverpool, but apart from a snippit from the 1830's mentioning it's captain was from Liverpool I haven't been able to find anything.
I was thinking David jnr. may have been a crew member on that voyage and met Elizabeth that way.
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It might be quicker to search their online stuff in case he popes out or email them !
http://www.nmm.ac.uk/researchers/
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That's a thought!! - I always thought he was a rather fast worked if they met in July and married in October - though there are plenty who have done so! ;)
I've just been through 30 pages on the deciphering board looking for my post re his ticket - can't find it - so I've posted this section of it again in the hope that it may possibly yield some fruit.
thanks for that link Toni!
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Wiggy another random thought for you when you get up.
Elizabeth and Mary Ann Hughes.
What exactly have you found out about them?
Did Mary Ann marry in Geelong, or anywhere else?
If so when and to whom.
Who were their parents, when and where were they born?
I think we have got to try some lateral thinking on this at the moment.
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Hunting through newspapers.... Wiggy, do you have the The Morning Post , Monday, June 23, 1834 in which David Duncan is cited as having been appointed Acting Master on the Algerine? If not, I'll send you a copy.
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I'm a bit lost with this from the National Archives.
Original page number: 330
David DUNCAN; Rank: Second Master; Born: [Not Given]; Age on entry: [Not Given]; Dates served: 30 May 1817-30 June 1835; Date and Type of Application: Greenwich 11 September 1835, Greenwich 18 September 1835
Covering dates 1834 Jan.-1836 May
Held by The National Archives, Kew
Looks like he was appling for a Greenwich pension ( the naval equivilant of a Chelsea pension) yet he was still in the navy later than this?
Angela that's good but look what I've just found.
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Now that IS interesting Jaywit! I've just been working my way through and found another appointment on 4 March 1837 (Hampshire Advertiser & Salisbury Guardian Royal Yacht Club Gazette) in which a David Duncan is cited as being appointed Second Master to the Princess Charlotte. David Jnr is surely too young for this post?
Added:
Morning Post Tuesday, August 28, 1838 David Duncan appointed master on Wolverine
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Angela He perhaps was talked into not retiring after he had made the pension claim Without seeing the actual documents we don't know.
Unless there were 2 Davids ( not counting David jnr.) No that doesn't bear thinking about.
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I have a horrible feeling that there might be more David Duncans ::) In the Standard, Tuesday, March 21, 1848 there's mention of the superannuation of warrant officers on the Agincourt, including David Duncan, gunner with a pension of £70. Quite a lot of money so not David Jnr? Unlikely to be David snr unless he's gone downhill ???
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Angela I have found David Duncan's serving in the army around that time.
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Don't tell me..... if you're of scottish origin it's just like being John Smith?
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Don't tell me..... if you're of scottish origin it's just like being John Smith?
It looks like it Angela. Many more with that name than I would have thought.
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My eyes have glazed over so I'm off now and will come back to see what I can do tomorrow!
I can only dip in and out and do odd bits, but you and Toni are terrific, Jaywit!
back later....
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I'm off for tonight now and I have to go shopping in the morning, need to get some food for the weekend ;D ;D
Wiggy I did find this.
http://newspapers.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/31743793?searchTerm=ceylon
A ship named Ceylon.
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I'm a bit lost with this from the National Archives.
Original page number: 330
David DUNCAN; Rank: Second Master; Born: [Not Given]; Age on entry: [Not Given]; Dates served: 30 May 1817-30 June 1835; Date and Type of Application: Greenwich 11 September 1835, Greenwich 18 September 1835
Covering dates 1834 Jan.-1836 May
Held by The National Archives, Kew
Looks like he was appling for a Greenwich pension ( the naval equivilant of a Chelsea pension) yet he was still in the navy later than this?
Angela that's good but look what I've just found.
it would be him applying for some sort of support for his family while he was serving
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Catching up with the traffic!
#87 - yes please to that paper Angela!
#88 and 97 - yes he, Snr, was serving after that and yes that's right Toni, I believe - family support! Also yes it is too young for David 2 - he joined RN briefly in 1839.
#96 - good find of that ship called Ceylon in Aussie Waters Jaywit!
I don't think David 2 was on that trip - judging from date on Muster ticket - but he could well have been with the same ship on another voyage.
#88 again - I immediately had the same thought about another David generation of seamen - but that rise to second master, 1835, equates well with David 1's time line - first master in 1838. (way back when I started searching for David 1, I was looking in Scotland generally - in Aberdeenshire everyone seemed to be Duncan and they named all their sons either David or Alexander - nightmare stuff!!)
You are wonderful people - I am processing all this great info as fast as I can here!
Thanks so much for all this looking
Wiggy :)
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Wiggy another random thought for you when you get up.
Elizabeth and Mary Ann Hughes.
What exactly have you found out about them?
Did Mary Ann marry in Geelong, or anywhere else?
If so when and to whom.
Who were their parents, when and where were they born?
I think we have got to try some lateral thinking on this at the moment.
- for starters, my apologies - sister may have been Mary (Jane) - But on the marriage cert for Elizabeth the witness is Mary Ann - so I dunno!! ::) :-\ I wonder if she was Mary Ann but called Jane!?? In my records the Jane is in brackets so maybe? :-\
The two girls come from a family of Penzance in Cornwall and I have the family back for three generations. Not all the members but the parents etc. Elizabeth and Mary Ann/Jane's parents were John Hugh, 1796 - 1865, and Elizabeth Blee, 1794 - before 1841. Neither of the girls was literate at their marriages. There was also a brother William - don't know anything about him.
Mary Ann/Jane, 1826 - 1893, married John Yeomans, 1822 - 1888, also from Cornwall, on 24 Nov 1849 in Geelong. They ended up in the goldfields also. Mary died 1893 in Beaufort Victoria (as did Elizabeth Duncan.) John, died 1888 also on goldfields at place called Main Lead. Yeomans had 6 children.
Wiggy :)
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Here's another random thought for you. I have a cousin called - wait for it - Duncan David H*****n. (In New Zealand) He very often got called David Duncan. :D
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that's the sort of news I need - thanks Barbara!! :P
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So . . . Been to Scotlands People and there are three marriages of Henry Duncan during 1790s one in 1794 at Falkland (preferred) - one in 1795 and one in 1797 - both too late (I hope!) I now have the original record for the first - very little extra info other than they were both 'of this parish'.
(The second two don't look likely to me - wive's names are wrong I reckon - Margaret and Christian.)
First has wife Elspeth Storrer - so that could be changed to Elizabeth for ease of differentiation in next generation couldn't it? :-\
But last time I was there I was looking for a child named David with a parent named Henry - and I couldn't find any!! - there were some Davids with father David though - (just to make life easy.)
For some unexplained reason I am inclined to go with the father named David - for no particular reason - other than I can find one which fits the dates I suppose! :-\ ::)
But there was some hint, in the family tale, that the David senior was illegitimate - so would a mother, unmarried, have named her son with the father's surname? - and . . . back in those times, would such a child have been able to rise to a person of rank in the Navy?? Anyway - - I can't find any David Duncans to fit this scenario!
( I just throw these questions in for good measure in case David Jnr leads to another dead end!!) ;D ;D
More new stuff: there's be a lot here that is new to me - the info re David Snr joining the Navy in 1817 is wonderful - thank you Jaywit for those parameters. And I love the stories about the Hope - very interesting and set the picture don't they - So much good info you are scavenging - love it!
Meantime I have written to Devon people for a copy of the marriage certificate or records, for David and Grace - only holding the dry basic info from Findmypast at the moment.
Wiggy :)
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Right that shopping trip didn't take long seeing as it's
pouring with rain and blowing a gale.
I see Elizabeth(13) is on 1841 census with her father John (45) a wheelwright, brother William (20)a Lath Maker and her sister is down as Jane (15).
I also see a Jane Hugh was witness at her parents marriage so Jane was a Hugh name, wonder why she didn't use it later on.
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Elizabeth's brother William must have married very shortly after the 1841 census. He is on 1851 as William Hugh still in Madron, a Lath Render, with a wife and 5 children the eldest being 9.
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Yes William Hugh Lath Maker bach. of Penzance son of John Hugh Lathmaker married Mary Bryant Newton spin. daughter of Isaac Newton Butcher of Penzance at Madron on 14/11/1841
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Jaywit - Madron and Penzance are close together are they?? They are down as having come from Penzance on the marriage certificate!
Help me - where is this taking us?? ;D ;D
You said a Jane Hugh was witness at her parents marriage - so are you thinking sister to John Hugh? So who are you thinking didn't use Jane as a name?? sorry I've got lost somewhere. :-[
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Wiggy Yes If you read about Madron church it was the mother church of Penzance.
What you often got in Cornwall ( and you find it in other places as well) is that the town on the coast ( ie. Penzance) was actually a sort of suburb to another town/village slightly inland.
Done I think to protect the church from any problems.
There is a similar arrangement I think at Looe further east along the coast and again at Falmouth.
Now William by 1861 has a different wife Rhoda and has moved to the London area, ( it's him as he has one of his Cornish children with him) looking at 1881 he has a load more children, so loads of new found rellies there if you want to follow it up. ( BTW he is a joiner/carpenter later on)
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will keep it in mind - but will stick to the ones I can't find at the moment!! ;) ;D ;D ;D that link is VERY tenuous!!
But you are very clever to have found them all - I found some of David's Snr) grandchildren in London the other day when looking around - not bad as they had a different surname - I was very pleased with myself that day!!
Done I think to protect the church from any problems.
such as attack from pirates or other 'worthies'? - or sea weather?
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Pirates, yes there are stories of people being captured and taken as far as Africa as slaves, and the weather as well.
If you look into the history of Cornwall it was an important trading area well before the Romans because of the metals mined there so it was well known to any possible pirates etc. from anywhere.
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it is a fascinating area alright! I've read some pseudo histories about Roman times in Cornwall and lots of books set in Cornwall about the tin mines, sea marauders etc etc. Very interesting - and very beautiful! Been there too - even better!
See 'blue' section of previous page post - what do you think about that?? someone has suggested to me that it is highly unlikely that David could have risen in rank if he'd been illegitimate - she also suggested that he probably had fairly significant rellies to enable him to rise up the ranks in the navy.
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Wiggy Cornwall has loads of history going back before the Romans, loads of Prehistoric monuments etc.
Have you read any of E V Thompson's novels set in Cornwall? The first one is Chase The Wind, it is set further east than Penzance, in the Looe area, but they give some flavour of Cornwall in the mid 19th century.
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not yet I haven't - might be next on my list of things to read! thanks for that! :)
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Wiggy I've just found this.
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~pbtyc/Naval.html
I haven't clicked on any of the links but it looks as though there is loads of information about the Royal Navy, maybe when you have some spare time have a look at it.
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Wiggy Cornwall has loads of history going back before the Romans, loads of Prehistoric monuments etc.
Have you read any of E V Thompson's novels set in Cornwall? The first one is Chase The Wind, it is set further east than Penzance, in the Looe area, but they give some flavour of Cornwall in the mid 19th century.
I enjoyed them all, Wiggy..... :)
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Wiggy I've just found this.
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~pbtyc/Naval.html
I haven't clicked on any of the links but it looks as though there is loads of information about the Royal Navy, maybe when you have some spare time have a look at it.
Think I've found how David Snr was retired as Staff Commander - it was a retiring promotion I do believe. that is a very informative link!
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do hope the people at NMM get back to me quickly!!! I am pinning great hopes on them having something there which may shed light on things - I might have to save my pennies and come to visit myself - but how to get there without a plane trip!!! :-\
Sorry but I have to shut up shop for tonight - leaving you to it.
Wiggy :)
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Night Wiggy.
I have just found this.
http://newspapers.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/8756290?searchTerm=ceylon
So the ship named Ceylon sank in 1845 so the word Ceylon on the record must refer to the island not a ship.
(BTW The Royal Navy had a ship named Ceylon but it looks as though it was permanently moored in Malta so I don't think that ship has anything to do with David)
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Well that puts paid to one theory doesn't it? Four ships all lost in the area of South Asia - all coming in to one paper - !!
You really are a very good scavenger Jaywit!
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I try Wiggy ;D ;D ;D ;D
Seeing as it poured with rain all day ( stopped now at last) I have been trying to work out if it is possible to find a ship that was in Ceylon around July 1847.
No luck so far, the lists I have found usually show ships with passengers and I think the Ceylon route may have been cargo only.
The main export from Ceylon at that time was coffee, also tea and looking at that record again does it say teak above Ceylon?
I'm still looking ;D ;D
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Cargo only is fine - he was a seaman after all! - and I've found that ships coming laden to Aus often went home via Asia to pick up a cargo to make the way home pay!
BBL . . . Market day and I need a few nice farm products!
I'll be looking again shortly - though it is the most beautiful Spring day! 22 they are saying for today!!! Yea!!!! :D :D :D
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I have found a ship here that left Adelaide in May 1847 heading for Ceylon.
http://newspapers.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/12895965?searchTerm=ceylon
I'll have to leave it now for tonight and yes the sun may shine tomorrow so I will be out if it does.
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I found a couple ships around our coast and calling in to Melbourne or Geelong in 1849 - and a couple of them had Mr Duncan on board as crew - but it didn't give a first name so no way on knowing - but at least I found them ;) ;)
- 'Victory' was in port at the same time as the 'Hope' - so I got all excited ;D - but the Mr Duncan concerned was 1st Mate, and that seemed to me to be unlikely that he'd have risen to that rank quite so quickly - though I suppose it is possible, considering his father's background - may have stood him in good stead. but only 24/5ish - there was a bit of a shindig on board concerning passenger rights.
Another ship 'Venus', the master was Mr Duncan - no first name - and she seemed to be doing coastal trade, of cargo and passengers - so that was another possibility - but how to prove anything - that's what I want to know!! ::) I got pretty excited about this one too! ;D
Apart from David who would have been just 25 by then, being Master, it seems a very good bet! Would you be a Master at 25??? (David Snr reached master rank at 44!) On the other hand David Jnr was Merchant as opposed to RN and he had been at sea for 10 years by then - (if he was still sailing) - so I suppose it is possible. :-\ ::) :-\ ::)
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I think you need someone with a knowledge of merchant shipping in the 1840s in Australia.
What I am thinking is this. It was boom time so many more ships would be needed in a hurry perhaps.
Was that the easiest method of transport?
What was the road system like at that point?
Railways?
Also were there enough seamen already living there?
I am thinking that maybe promotion for someone who showed some get up and go and who had a Royal Navy background might just have been much quicker than in England.
David might have just gone up the ladder quickly but if he had would he have left and turned to mining?
We don't know wether Elizabeth wanted him on land, coming from where she did she knew the dangers of the sea and she perhaps wanted him to give up the sea.
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Early 1850s were the years of the Goldrush, Jaywit......and the lure of getting rich quick drew people from all walks of life. So David may well have thrown away a maritime career in the hope that he would strike it rich.........
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Not only that, but many many people gave up perfectly good jobs for the lure of gold! and that's where he headed- but gold was first discovered in Victoria in 1853 I think
- so my theory is he could have stayed at sea for about 4 years before being conned by the 'get rich quick' symdrome - what do you think of that theory??
Snap Dee - I was just calling you - but you came without being called!!! ;D
what do you know about coastal shipping Dee?
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Jaywit,
What I am thinking is this. It was boom time so many more ships would be needed in a hurry perhaps.
Specially if they were losing ships as quickly as that NLA clip you pointed out - four ships lost and reported in one paper!! although the crews were saved I think I read!
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I agree Dee a great lure, but I don't think David had been brought up in abject poverty as many of the immigrants had.
I also think Elizabeth would have seen enough seamen's widows and families in Penzance and she perhaps would encourage him to get a land based job.
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Doesn't matter - rich and poor they all got lured!
the excitement of striking it rich with just one decent sized nugget - and all that land to be had if you happened lucky - could anyone resist - well, a few did but lots didn't!
sidetrack - family on my 'other side' came out and went to the goldfields - but they went as tailors and made good because everyone needed clothes!! - they all have big headstones on their graves - the Duncans don't have any markings at all!!
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What is still interesting and intriguing is how David managed to slip into Victoria without being noticed - no records of him arriving and staying! I wonder if one decided to get off one's ship , I suppose one could just stay without being noticed.
another thought worth considering - although the knowledge of David Snr having rank is well known in the family, David Jnr is not know as being a ranking officer - and so far the family lore has stood the test of close scrutiny - on all sides of the family too!! Hmmmm :-\
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I'm sure David could have made an acceptable living on the ships so.
He was lured by the gold or
Elizabeth wanted him on land or
He hated the seamans life and felt he had been pushed into it by his father or
He got into trouble and made a quick exit.
I don't think you will ever know which of those applied
Right the sun is shining this morning although everywhere is very wet so I'm off out for a while.
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It wasn't called Gold Fever for nothing!! ;D ;)
Enjoy the day!
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Not only that, but many many people gave up perfectly good jobs for the lure of gold! and that's where he headed- but gold was first discovered in Victoria in 1853 I think
- so my theory is he could have stayed at sea for about 4 years before being conned by the 'get rich quick' symdrome - what do you think of that theory??
Snap Dee - I was just calling you - but you came without being called!!! ;D
what do you know about coastal shipping Dee?
About as much as you, Wiggy....... ;D
All I know is that my great grandfather appears to have hopped on board a coastal trader that went from Phillip Island to Port Augusta, where he disembarked and was promptly robbed of his watch!
Not much help from me, I'm afraid. :-\
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I've heard back from the Devon records person for St Andrew's parish Plymouth, and she confirms what you already found Jaywit, Angela and Toni. Still no sign of Grace's birth though! :-\
(That's two GGGgrandmothers who just 'appeared' - do wish they wouldn't do that!! It is very disconcerting ;D ::) )
She, Maureen, has given me another address to write to for the marriage certificate but warns that it will not add much to what we already know - maybe a witness or two, but little else. However, I will write away for it!
She couldn't find the 1841 census entry either - I feel so much better knowing that!! ;) ;D (I'm not as thick as I thought I was.)
You are probably correct Jaywit - he could have most likely made a much more secure living staying at sea - but he didn't - he caught the fever.
David 2's in-laws:
Elizabeth Hugh's sister married John Yeomans. He and his wife Mary Ann/Jane, and children , John, Elizabeth Jane, Annie Louisa, Grace, Christine and Mary Ann lived quite close to the Duncans I do believe - Annie I know was also born at Carngham near Ballarat on the goldfields, as was Henry Duncan
To make things clearer I'm going to try to remember to put the Jnr/Aussie family in blue!! ::)
Wiggy :)
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Hi Wiggy,
I had a quick look at Mariners and Ships in Australian Waters site for your David Duncan Jnr. Unfortunately, there are no ships recorded before 1845, and I noticed that the ships arriving in 1845 - 1854 only seemed to have the Captain’s and passenger’s names with no crew member’s names. My great grandfather was 1st mate on various ships traveling from ports in New Zealand and around Australia in the 1860’s and I was able to track him using this site. You may have already searched this but I will post it just in case you haven’t.
http://mariners.records.nsw.gov.au/
These entries may or may not be your David Duncan, but thought I would post them for future reference when you find out more about him.
D. Duncan: crew, fireman, age 30, Nation - England, sailing on the ship ‘Wonga Wonga’ from Port Melbourne to Sydney on 17 March 1857. Ages of crew are not always exact.
David Duncan, no age, passenger in steerage, arriving 28 Nov 1868 from the port of Brisbane to Sydney on the ship, ‘Lady Young’
Margaret :)
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Thanks so much for looking Margaret - I don't think either of those are mine - but you never know!!
thanks for the link!
Certainly the age of the first one nearly matches. But I think he was digging for gold and fathering children at the time (literally - his son was born Jan 1858 which makes March 1857 important!! ;D
- so I don't think so - but stranger things have happened.
- pity it seems to be such a common name for sailors!! ::)
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You should get the names of the witnesses on that marriage record ( it will only be a copy of what is written in the PR) If you are lucky then at least one of the witnesses will be from Grace's family.
You won't get much more information though. It will all depend on what the vicar wrote down.
She was born somewhere in the Plymouth area I think but there are so many possible churches/chapels she could have been baptised in and so few online it is difficult.
She may have been from a nonconformist family and she could have been baptised in a chapel but she had to marry in C of E before 1837.
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Well no matter how many times I try to find her on the findmypast site, she still isn't there!!! ;) Every time I look she isn't there!! ;D ;D ::)
I've now written to the Devon Records Office for the marriage cert. and also asked if they have record of her birth - here's hoping they find something!! I'm getting lots of practise asking questions by email!! ;D
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It is so frustrating when you can't find a baptism.
I've got one he insists on every census he was born in a very small village but he wasn't baptised there, unless as I am wondering now he was baptised with a different surname.
It is a case of just plodding on and at least you can work out where Grace wasn't baptised by which churches are online.
Have you read this history of Penzance?
http://www.localhistories.org/penzance.html
It was attacked by the Spanish at one point, you begin to see why churches etc were built slightly inland.
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That's very interesting Jaywit and makes me wish I'd had more time to slowly absorb the delights of the town when we were there - instead of being hassled by three very young children - i.e. i saw practically nothing!! ;)
And if I'd known the family connection, I'd have been even more interested!! Quite a town isn't it!
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All the times I've been to Cornwall I've never been down into Penzance.
I'ts the sort of place you go round on the ring road ( I did that last year) but I must go down into the town.
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Here's this weeks Scavenger Hunt......... I'm sure you'll be able to help.
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,487232.0.html
Good Luck and Good Hunting
Barbara
As usual, this Hunt will remain open for any further information which may come in.
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Thanks everyone for your input
- specially Jaywit and Toni for you knowledge of RN and Merchant navy 'stuff'.
Also thanks to Angela for your looking up of things and sending of things.
I am very grateful for your efforts - will post any answers I get to my various inquiries.
Wiggy :)
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Oh joy - :D
- at last I've tracked down the holder of the records for Plymouth marriages in 1814 - am now eagerly awaiting receipt of David and Grace's marriage record! Only took about half a dozen emails to various places!!
Wiggy
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brilliant keep us informed
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Replied on another post, but entered it here again.
I have David Snr born c1793 in Dysart, Fifeshire. I think that cam from an application for a pension - National Archives
Grace bapt 20 aug 1794, St Andrews, Plymouth to John and Ann.
married 5 Sept 1814, St Andrews, Plymouth.
9 Children. (I see you found a Harriet = 10)
Mary Ann 25 Jun 1815, Grace 6 Dec 1816 married Stephne Cuming, George 1817, henry 26 May 1819, Joan, Elizabeth 1822 married Boon, David 21 Dec 1824, Archibald 19 May 1834, Caroline 1838 married Jenkins.
David Senior
I found an application for a Napoleonic War Medal on Ancestry, which I'm pretty sure is David Duncan Snr.
Half way down the page (on Ancestry) you will see that David Duncan on HMS Loire under Capt Schomberg, was a gunner on that ship. The comment at the end "1st Plymouth" , whatever that means, seems to place him in the right place. When I had him researched we could not find when he enlisted or what ship he was on first. Loire was a French ship captured in 1798. David was too young to be on board then but Capt Schomberg was the Capt between 1807 and 1812. David would have been 14 in 1807 and 19 in 1812. If you google HMS Loire you can read all about it.
There is a reference number for his application for the medal which may reveal more details about which battle he was in to earn the medal. He may also have been on board HMS Loire when it was involved with battles with the Americans in 1813 and Danish in 1812.
David Junior
Seaman’s Ticket film 1482517 Ticket number 36029
Born Plymouth 21 Dec 1824, 5’7”, Brown Hair, Grey eyes, Sallow complexion. First went to sea 1839. Royal Navy 2 months. Resides Liverpool. Can write. Discharged Ceylon 10 Mar 1847.
George Duncan
Seaman’s Ticket film 1482517 Ticket number 36973
Born Plymouth26 May 1819, 5’4”, Lt Brown Hair, Blue eyes, Fair complexion. First went to sea 1834. Resides Plymouth. Can write. Last voyage 1848.
Regards
Paul
Melbourne Australia
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Hi Paul..... welcome to Rootschat.
I'm sure she'll be chuffed when she reads your post. :D
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I am - I'm thrilled - :D :D :D
Welcome to Rootschat Paul - be warned this site is addictive!
Paul, I wonder if I know you - have PMed. (Private Message) ;) If you are who I think you are, that is very good news that you've joined this site.
Wiggy :)
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Paul can use the PM system when he has made 3 entries on the forum so one more to go
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Hi Toni,
brilliant keep us informed
I received the certificate from Plymouth not long ago and it gave me a definite marriage in 1814 - also two witnesses who turned out to be family members - so a little more family was uncovered!
Re wycheproof:
I saw the PM button was on for Paul so we have made contact - ;) funny I thought it was three also - but that rule doesn't seem to apply at the moment. :-\ :)
I still need convincing re David Senior's navy record - but no doubt that will come!!! 14 seems a little early to be winning a medal :-\ ::) :D I am prepared to accept proof positive however!! ;)
Wiggy :)
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Been going over this 'hunt' to make sure I've added all the info you found for me, searched all the leads you gave me, and to see if there is anywhere else to go with it!
Just adding a little to this knowledge - The David winning a medal for the Napoleonic Wars - See Wycheproof's first post - was yet another David Duncan serving in the navy - (Take away the David Duncans and you only have 3/4 of a navy - OK slight exaggeration - but it feels like that sometimes!! ;D ;D) Still can't get a definite fix on David Snr's birth - one, son of Henry, in 1793 in Tranent, East Lothian - but none in Dysart, Fife as he stated on his entry to the navy. Very elusive. One day I'll find the evidence! - one day . . . . . .
David Duncan Jnr was thought to be sailing around the coast for a few years after marriage- moved inland for his wife's health (and gold! ;)) so the story goes - I find it hard to believe that living in the rough and primitive conditions on the gold fields would make anyone feel better than living is a relatively settled town - but there you go!! :-\ Certainly his wife died young at age of 39 in 1868 ::)
Wiggy :)
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Wiggy Yes If you read about Madron church it was the mother church of Penzance.
What you often got in Cornwall ( and you find it in other places as well) is that the town on the coast ( ie. Penzance) was actually a sort of suburb to another town/village slightly inland.
Done I think to protect the church from any problems.
Hi Wiggy,Penzance,Newlyn,Paul and Mousehole were all practically destroyed in a Spanish raid in the 1590's.In Mousehole the only building that survived was the pub.
George.
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Hope it still had some beer to sell then!! ;D ;D
Lots of history around there - wish I'd had more time and fewer children to car about at the time I was there! ;)
Wiggy :)
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nearly two years later - and still searching
Just a catch up - I've recently found a news item in a local paper of Geelong stating that a ship the Prince Albert ran into - or was run into - a ship Keera in the Yarra River Melbourne - both bound for Geelong - Mate on the Prince Albert was David Duncan - mine I hope - - - the odd thing is that the mate on the Keera was John Yeoman!! I suspect it was David's B i L!!
OH boy - I wonder if that was Mary Jane's husband. And I wonder if this little contretemps led to both 'mates' deciding to take their families (wives being sisters) and going to the gold fields!
Don't reopen the thread - just letting all you wonderful scavengers know! :D
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Some interesting bits you've found there, Wiggy ;D
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maybe they were waving to each other and got too close!
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A rellie suggested they may have been racing!! :o :o ;D