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Wales (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Wales => Topic started by: cecile on Monday 04 October 10 11:13 BST (UK)
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A Gt. Uncles son (or possibly step son - we are not sure) was a radio ham during world war 2. I think he lived in Colwyn Bay in Wales and the story goes that he was on his radio and he picked up signals from a German submarine. Apparently he reported this and we presume the submarine was caught or tracked down or whatever. I wondered if this sort of thing would have been reported in the newspapers or would it have been kept 'hushed up'.
I dint know a great deal about this young man other than his name was Norman his father (or step father) was John Edward Thomas so I assume Normans surname was Thomas. Norman eventually went on to train sheep dogs and they were sent all over the world - apparently. I would like to know a little more about Norman if anyone knows how I go about it. Sorry its all rather vague.
Many thanks
Cecile
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No idea if this would have been reported in the newspapers, but a nightmare to find unless you have an idea of when, rather than just "during the war".
To get some facts you'd need his birth, marriage or death certs. But as Thomas is a very common name in Wales that might prove tricky too. If he was a stepson, he wouldn't have the same surname, unless he'd been adopted by his stepfather.
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Hello
If you could find the marriage of John Edward Thomas and Norman's Mother, it may provide a link to Norman's surname. This would make it easier to find anything that may exist about Norman in archives.
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Hi
Thank you for that - however, this is where it gets a bit complicated!!
John James Thomas was 'a bit of a lad' apparently. He was from Anglesey originally and married a lady called Catherine Williams but he left her and moved to Colwyn Bay where he 'married' a widow (don't know her name or if he ever got divorced - its doubtful) and the story goes that she died and he 'married again' another widow also called Catherine. Everyone assumes that Norman is from the second 'marriage' but unfortunately we don't know his mothers name. I know it is all very vague but thought I would ask Roots for advice. Over the years I have had the merest information about something and good old Roots have always come up with the answers. Of course this is during the war and more important things were happening so its understandable.
Sorry - got his name wrong!! It is John James Thomas not John Edward Thomas and he was born in Anglesey 23rd. February 1872 son of William and Elizabeth Thomas
Many thanks anyway.
Cecile
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Ok, Cecile
I think I've found Norman for you!
http://www.byegones.co.uk/old_colwyn_map.html
Extract: "Groes Bach which has recently been refurbished and back to its old glory. In my youth Norman Thomas lived there with his father. Norman was our milkman and brought the milk in churns in the back of an old green van, dipped the ladles into the churn and delivered it to the waiting jug in either half pint or pint measures. Norman Thomas was world famous for his expertise in both the rearing and training of Welsh Collie sheepdogs and he could be seen most days training them on the field adjacent to the farm and on which there are now office buildings. "
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this thread may be related to your request:
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=128754.0
carolburns hasn't been on rootschat since June 2009 but it may still be worth sending her a PM :)
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This website mentions JOHN JAMES THOMAS, born on 23 Feb 1872, RHOSNEIGR, ANGLESEY NORTH WALES; married MARY WILLIAMS, on 23 Jul 1893; died COLWYN BAY.
http://thetiesthatbindburnsandthomas.webs.com/thomaswilliamsfamily.htm
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This is good information about Norman - many thanks for that. I will see if I can find out anything else.
I did contact carolburns a few years ago but at the time, she too had come up against a brick wall as far a Norman was concerned. I have tried to contact her many times since, but not had any reply.
Anyway, THANK YOU for what we have to-day.
Best wishes
Cecile
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You're welcome :D
Have you thought of contacting RSGB (Radio Amateurs society) to see if they can help?
http://www.rsgb.org/
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Thank you for that
I will contact them and see what they say.
Thanks again.
Cecile
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Hi, a while ago since your post but Norman was my great uncle from my dads side, i am just doing our family tree and came across your post. Norman was initially a milkman, he flew bi planes in world war 1 and had a radio relay station in world war 2. The story regarding the German sub is correct, the German sub was waiting at the great orme to pick up air crews that had been shot down over Liverpool. the air crew had made their way to the little orme by mistake.
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Hi! This is great. I knew he was a milkman and that he trained sheepdogs but I didn't know that he was in WW1. Do you have any further info on that? Nobody knows what happened to him after the early 1950s. Someone said that he had emigrated but I don't know. I assume that you are related to his sister Lilly.
Looking forward to hearing from you
Best wishes
Cecile
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Hi Cecile
Norman lived in eirias cottage (opposite the entrance to eirias park) He was a tenant farmer here and had the land up towards the fire station that is now covered with office buildings. As he got older my dad , Glyn (known to many as Glyn Mars Jones) took over the running of the farm to help Norman out. Norman used to collect van loads of bread and cakes that were surplus from the local cake shops and feed them to his sheep, I never saw him not wearing a jacket and tie, he was always well dressed beneath a long trench coat held together with binding twine. I used to spend weekends at Normans when i was younger and listen to his stories about the wars. I still have his leather flying helmet from WW1 and his field phone issued during WW2. I remember his had an outbuilding full of all his radio equiprment and used to talk to people from all over the world, I still have a box of the stuff somewhere. Norman won loads of sheep dog comps and used to make his own whistles. He never married but did have a girlfreind who lived in the next door cottage.
I would be keen to know any further information you have on lilly, i have some photos but do not know much about her.
regards
mike
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Any possibility of confusion with this?
http://uboat.net/forums/read.php?23,83889,83889
Plenty of versions of that story if you Google.
Imber
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Back to the original question ................ "I wondered if this sort of thing would have been reported in the newspapers or would it have been kept 'hushed up?'". I am about 100% certain that there would be no mention about the incident and if it did happen he would be cautioned not to say anything about it. Certainly it would never be published in a newspaper at the time.
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The story of the escaped German prisoners of war
This information is based on a fascinating book on the town, 'Llandudno: Queen of Welsh Resorts' by Ivor Wynne Jones (Landmark Publishing).
On the night of 13 August 1915, two German submarines, U-27 and U-38, kept a rendezvous in the waters off the Great Orme. Their mission was to rescue three officers who had escaped from a prisoner of war camp at Dyffryn Aled, Llansannan. Following an initial contact in the camp via a repatriated civilian who had been interned as an enemy alien, the three officers had received instructions about their escape and rescue in coded letters.
After the first night of the rendezvous, the commander of the U-38, Korvettenkapitan Max Valentiner, released the U-27 which sailed away. U-38 kept a virgil for two more nights, as planned, then sailed away believing the officers had failed to get out of the camp. The escaped prisoners walked back into Llandudno at the end of three days, and discovered after the war that they had been waiting in the wrong cove.
Shortly before 9.00am on 16 August, Korvettenkapitan Hermann Tholens entered the barber and tobacconist shop of W.S Herbert at 26 Mostyn Street and asked for a packet of Abdullah cigarettes. By then there was a general alert throughout the area. Herbert, realising that his customer was a stranger to the town, spoke in Welsh to another customer and asked him to follow the stranger until he met up with a soldier or a policeman.
Strolling up the road, Tholens next called at the Cocoa House at 66 Mostyn Street, and ordered coffee and cake. Police Constable Morris Williams had been alerted and kept observation from across the road, then followed him into the Tudno Hotel (now The Townhouse pub) at number 64, where he challenged and arrested him. Tholens spent the night at the old Police Station in Court Street (at the rear of Osborne House).
Tholens' two fellow officers, Rittmeister Wolf-Dietrich Baron von Helldorf and Kapitanleutnant Bon Henning, remained at liberty until 11.00pm, when they were spotted near the Pier gates by cabman Alfred Davies. Davies' suspicions were aroused by the strangers. "Cab, Sir?" he asked. After the two officers took their seats and asked for the railway station, he drove them the short distance to Bryn Elli, in Gloddaeth Street, then serving as headquarters of the 15th (1st London Welsh) Battalion, Royal Welch Fusiliers. They were taken before the 113 Brigade Major, and from there to the Royal Hotel in Church Walks. Unlike Tholens, who was languishing in an old police cell, the other two officers had come under military jurisdiction, and were given a level of food and accomodation deemed appropriate for officers.
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Hello Mike
This is fantastic information. Many thanks.
I am afraid I don't know much about Lilly, in fact I didn't know she even existed until I found her with Norman and her Mother and Father on the census. I am only connected to Norman via my in-laws. Normans father John James Thomas was my father-in-laws uncle, which makes Norman his cousin, but I don't think John Thomas was his real father. He married Normans mother in the early 1900s (I will have to check the actual date) and she already had the two children Norman and Lilly. When they were born, John James was already married to someone else in Anglesey!( all very complicated isn't it). My husband remembers going to Normans with his Dad but he was a very young child and only remembers bits of things but as he read your message describing Norman he fully agreed.
If you have any more bits of information I would love to hear it.
Best wishes
Cecile
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Hello Mike
Do you by any chance know Normans date of birth? I have him down as approx. 1901 but that cant be right if he was flying planes in WW1. Also, do you know when he died?
Thanks again for all the information. We have decided that we will have to get the book Llandudno Queen of Welsh resorts.
Best wishes
Cecile
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Visiting Colwyn Bay for over 70 years I still retain friends there from the 1950/60's. This last two weeks we have been comparing notes about the radio 'shack' in the top orchard at Pen-y-Groesffordd
Riding Stables which was owned by Mr and Mrs Eddie Thomas. Her brother, Norman ,was a renowned sheep dog breeder and trainer and lived at the bottom of Groes Road directly opposite the main gates to Eirias Park. According to my friends the radio equipment was owned by Norman rather than Eddie or his sons Glyn and Ken, but we are uncertain whether he was a coast watcher or just an enthusiastic radio ham. This information seems to tie in with the notes following but I am not certain it helps the enquiry.
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Norman's RAF forms are now on FindMyPast. Enlisted/called up to RAF 20 6 1918 as a Motor Mechanic. His RAF number being 199419.DoB = 21 6 1900. NoK = his mother, Mary Thomas of Pen y Groesffordd, Colwyn Bay.
https://search.findmypast.co.uk/record?id=GBM%2FAIR79%2F1811%2F00039&parentid=GBM%2FAIR79%2F95358
I don't if I have missed something but the events referred to in the opening post was a submarine in WW2 whilst the events later described in the thread referred to a submarine in WW1.