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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Lancashire => England => Lancashire Lookup Requests => Topic started by: julie Thorborn on Tuesday 05 October 10 20:20 BST (UK)
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im looking for a reference for the above in order to send for her birth certificate
she was born in manchester - mother catherine murphey
married charles henry smith dec 1818 - first child francis maude smith 1920
any help would be appreciated
:-\
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Hi,
:D
I can't see an Ellen Callaghan birth in Manchester for 1896 however there are two for 1898:-
3rd qtr 1898 Manchester 8d 264
3rd qtr 1898 Manchester 8d 305
??? ???
I was wondering if you had the name of her father from the marriage which I can't see for 4th qtr 1918 but can see a possible for 3rd qtr 1920 (Ellen spelt as Helen and groom, Henry C Smith).
Have you got her on the 1901 census? If we could see were she was in 1901, this might help to pinpoint a reference for her birth.
Luzzu
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no i dont have that :( - someone kindly found her marraige details to charles henry :-*
i think often it changed around to henry charles smith..... ::)
thanks for trying :)
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on www.lancashirebmd.org.uk the 1918 marriage is Mary E Callaghan .....to Charles Smith ??
I don`t know if this is the marriage you are refering to - if so , maybe we should be looking for Mary Ellen Callaghan and not Ellen Callaghan and that`s why you can`t find her birth...back soon...allan :o
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OK...A Possible
Mary Ellen Callaghan mar qtr 1897 Manchester 8d 225
it`s possible Mary Ellen Callaghan was born late december 1896 and registered early January 1897 - hence the mar qtr 1897 registration...
so IF , AND IT IS A BIG IF the 1918 marriage to Charles Smith is your (Mary) ELLEN CALLAGHAN
I would think the above birth registration is very possible....can someone else check this out please and give their opinion...I don`t want to lead Julie astray....I think the above is possible.....if I`m wrong , slap my wrists....lol....allan :)
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ooo what a mary ellen ! i wonder if thats where the family saying come from ;D
i appreciate any help and thanks garstonite :-*
i will hang fire and see if anyone confirms and send for the birth certificate ;)
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Hi,
I have been looking for both on the 1901 census without success so far :-\.
The Lancs BMD has the 1920 marriage Ellen Callaghan/Henry C Smith as taking place at St Oswalds, Collyhurst.
Julie - where did you find the reference to Catherine Murphy as (Mary) Ellen's mother? Have you got a copy of Frances Maude Smith's birth certificate? I was wondering how her mother's name was on there and also what was the address.
Like Garstonite, I would hate you to order the wrong certificate, so if we could just find another clue. Based on what we have so far, I think it could go either way.
Luzzu
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Hi,
Just seen a tree on A******y with Henry Charles Smith born 1897 Liverpool married to Ellen Callaghan in 1920 and it gives his parents as Julius Smith and Alice Maude Charlotte Hunt.
I think is the marriage for his parents:-
2nd qtr 1886 Liverpool 8b 208 and Lancs BMD has it taking place at Liverpool St Peter.
I know its really flimsy evidence but maybe Frances Maude was named for her grandmother ???.
Luzzu
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yes thats them
but im not sure what you mean that francis was named for her grandmother
francis sister is still alive she says ellens mother was catherine murphey thats whyy im after ellens marriage cert. i do beleive that they all were born in lpool and then mooved to m/c befor they all went to usa.
thanks so much luzzu :-*
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Hi Julie,
Glad we are looking at the right family :D but it still doesn't help you find out the reference to order the right certificate :-\.
but im not sure what you mean that francis was named for her grandmother
I meant that that giving her the 2nd name Maude, it was maybe after her grandmother as that was one of her names too.
I am not sure what to do next but still can't understand why I can't see them ont he 1901 census.
Will keep looking.
Luzzu
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Hi again,
Don't know whether this helps at all but LancsBMD has this marriage:-
Catherine Murphy/Michael J Callanan
1888 Liverpool
Liverpool Register Office or Registrar Attended
www.lancashirebmd.org.uk
(1st qtr 1888 Liverpool 8b 239 is the reference from FreeBMD)
Luzzu
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mmm i do beleive that there was often speling mistakes and maybe it has been transcribed incorrect?
i wonder why we cant find her birth - she obviously existed - i wonder if she was born in irleand ?? as catherine murphey is clearly an irish name..............
you are doing a wonderful job :-*
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Hi Julie,
:D
She certainly sounds Irish to me. I think Callaghan sounds Irish too. The marriage in 1888 was Liverpool Registry Office or Registrar Attended which I think is a good indication that they were Roman Catholic, although St Oswald's in Collyhurst where the 1920 marriage took place was Church of England.
The lady who told you Ellen's mother was Catherine, does she know the first name of Ellen's father by any chance? If not, if you order the 1920 marriage certificate first (hoping that's the right one and it isn't the 1918 one) that should give you her father's name and if it is Michael then the 1888 marriage would look more promising. I just hope I am not sendng you off in the wrong direction.
Just a thought are you in Manchester? If you are you could try and check the parish records for the 1920 marriage as you know the name of the church ???.
None of this is helping with your original enquiry though, to find Ellen's birth certificate :(.
Luzzu
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mmm good idea - im not in manch but i someone that iiiiiissss..... ;)
thanks for all the info - watch this space :-*
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Look out on the Lancashire boards for Manchester Library look up offers ;). They do come up from time to time, I think the last one was in August.
Luzzu
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thanks - will do :-*
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Back on the trail! Having seen Mary ellen & Charles Henry marriage certificate as 1920 ( the year Francis was born ) father as Frederick Callaghan, I find him and the 3 kids ellen aka Helen, Beatrice & maude in the 1901 census but no mother.
Any clues oh wise ones ? Tia
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Well Beatrice's birth must be this one
CALLAGHAN, BEATRICE MURPHY Order
GRO Reference: 1895 M Quarter in CHORLTON Volume 08C Page 854
I can't see the others at the moment
this might be Maud?
CALLAGHAN, FRANCES MAUD MURPHY Order
GRO Reference: 1891 S Quarter in CHORLTON Volume 08C Page 907
and Ellen?
CALLAGHAN, ELLEN MURPHY Order
GRO Reference: 1898 S Quarter in MANCHESTER Volume 08D Page 305
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Marriage
Marriages Jun 1891 (>99%)
Callaghan Frederick Chorlton 8c 1178
Howarth Ada Chorlton 8c 1178
MURPHY Kathleen Chorlton 8c 1178
Taylor Thomas Bir_ey Chorlton 8c 1178
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Death of Kathleen/Catherine? (Same quarter as birth of Ellen)
CALLAGHAN, CATHERINE 28
GRO Reference: 1898 S Quarter in MANCHESTER Volume 08D Page 253
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From 1911 there is a 4th surviving child
possibly
CALLAGHAN, MAY MURPHY Order
GRO Reference: 1896 J Quarter in CHORLTON Volume 08C Page 868
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Is Frances Maud the marriage in 1914 to Herbert BARLOW?
if so, she has father's name as Frederick George CALLAGHAN and says he is a weaver. a bit of a change in occupation there. AND it's a C of E wedding
one of the witnesses is an Agnes CALLAGHAN
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Frederick (weaver) and Catherine 1891?
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:7Z8J-L6Z
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Frederick George volunteered WW1 - record is on Ancestry
He was previously with an Ox & Bucks regt discharged in 1887
in 1915 LOTS of drunk and disorderly, absent and late.
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Thanks for that lots to go on there
I have a picture of Frederick and 2 daughters still in his uniform but again no mother, I wonder if she did die.
I think the marriage of Frances maude is correct and Agnes never married.
Adding George to his name may help.
I do believe c of e would be correct.
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Just a bit confused about the dates for Frederick in the Army. Could he be in the army and workhouse with the kids?
If the mother died what would happen to a baby and toddlers! I have a photo of him and 2 daughters in their late teens early 20s in his uniform :-*
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When was he in the Workhouse?
The girls were old enough to work by the time he enlisted.
AND Frances Maud was married. He gives her address. So they could just as easily be living with her if they were not living in.
When did his mother, Elizabeth, die? They were living with her in 1891. so it is possible they still were in 1898.
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Not sure how to attach doc
1901 and 1902 show him and his kids in Withington workhouse
Sounds plausible if Caroline died the year ellen was born.
Can't find elizabeth callaghan death,
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well, I should say that is entirely possible.
other families I have looked at were sometimes in and out of the workhouse over several years.
But it doesn't interfere with the WW1 attestation at all.
It's surprising Frederick didn't remarry. (or maybe not when you look at his conduct record!) You will have seen I am sure that remarriage often occurs very soon after the death of either spouse, I am sure it was usually for practical reasons.
l
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Could you tell me how to look at his records please
I'm still trying to find out how those 3 girls survived together in the workhouse or if anyone else took them on.
Thanks for your help
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It is in this data set on Ancestry
British Army WWI Service Records, 1914-1920
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I think I have just about exhausted my skill in finding
Elizabeth callaghan death. Born in London 1841, ending up in Manchester in 1891. Then I can't find her.
Can anyone help me please
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There's this person in Harpurhey
Henry Callaghan 40 - b St Giles, London. Smallware weaver
Harriet Callaghan 35
Elizabeth Callaghan 59 - mother, b St Giles, London
Mary A Callaghan 8 - niece
RG13, 3776, 55, 3
Potential 1861 has a Henry in the right area son of Frederick & Elizabeth (as is Frederick George)
Possible death
Elizabeth Callaghan
Q2 1910
Age at Death: 67
Prestwich Vol 8d p171
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Frederick was elizabeths son as was Charles Edward b1868
So the names are there not necessarily in the right order. Thanks for looking
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Elizabeth's husband (and Frederick George's father) was also Frederick, a weaver.
They also had a child Henry William b1860, so I think Elizabeth is with one of Frederick George's brother in 1901
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May I ask where you have found this? I have been searching and no harry appears. I can see that Harrycould be younger brother of Frederick snr. Especially as he was born in London too.
Harriet the sister in law
Oh this is hard lol
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Baptisms St Giles in the Fields
Henry William Callaghan 9 Sep 1860 - parents Frederick & Elizabeth, 11 L Wild St. Father a weaver
Frederick George Callaghan 27 Jul 1862 - parents Frederick & Elizabeth, 12 Little Wild St. Father a lace weaver
Elizabeth Jane Callagan 30 Oct 1864 - parents Frederick & Elizabeth, 21 Great Wild St. Father a coach [?] lace weaver
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Frederick & Elizabeth can be found together in 1861, with Henry, in Little Wild St. Don't see her or the boys again until 1891. They should be in the Manchester area, given Charles Edward was born there c1868
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Thanks for your help. I have seen the conditions of that area.grim. not sure that where they moved to in Manchester was much better!
Going to search for their marriage now and Elizabeth maiden name ::)