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Research in Other Countries => Immigrants & Emigrants - General => Topic started by: annron on Saturday 09 October 10 19:37 BST (UK)
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I have an ancestor Malcolm Bell Hay b1877Christchurch N.Z. Profession Surgeon and Medical Practioner, on his death notice in the BMJ it saya he was in the Medical Service West Africa. I searched the military records to no avail, then started to search passenger list and he is on several incoming passenger lists from the Gold Coast to Liverpool, 1917 1919, 1920,1922,1924,1925,1927 with his wife and I think his daughter.
Anybody know where I could get any info regarding what he was doing out there and why so much tooing a frowing.
Chris
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hi chris i,ve just had a look at the migration records in 1919 a dr mb hay was enroute to the gold coast and it for occupation he,s down as col gov official which presumably is colonial government the good old days of the british raj , depending on your point of view ;D does this tie in with a description for him coming to england ?, i,m wondering if there were some sort of disease epidemic , or could he have been carrying something back to britain he couldn,t entrust to any one else ( very james bond or am i in the realms of fantasy ) ;D
trevor
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Hi Trevor, I like your fantasy, but I am as intrigued as you are, I suppose your theory could be right but how can I get anymore info.
On all the incoming passenger lists he is down as Surgeon, Medical etc. Also each journey they travelled 1st class.
chris
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I would suspect he was coming home on leave!! :P
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hi chris looking at the migrant records the following reads
departure 18 dec 1912 m b hay surgeon
"" 15 mar 1916 medical officer including mrs m b hay & miss m o hay
"" 15 june 1921 medical officer
"" 26 feb 1923 medical including mrs m b hay
"" 10 jul 1924 medical including mrs m b hay & miss m o hay
"" 6 feb 1926 medical
i can,t find there arrival from n z unless they went straight to the gold coast and the first arrival from there is his first to eng but the dates don,t tie up with yours !!!!! any thoughts
trevor
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Hi Trevor,this is what I've got 1901 census he was listed at Devon Infirmary as House Surgeon.
He Married Minnie Sym in Christchurch N.Z. 1902.
1911 Census Minnie and daughter living Gillingham Kent, Minnie Born Middlesex Twickenham and daughter born Devonshire 1904.
1911 census is a Student at Custom House Essex Occ Medical Practitioner.
Incoming Pass.Lists Gold Coast to Liverpool.
10/6/1917
9/6/1919
3012/1920
15/3/1924
14/9/1925
13/3/1927
I'm a bit confused really are your departure dates from England to gold Coast?
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chris
in answer to your confusion yes my dates are from eng to gold coast ;)
my turn now so m b is born in nz comes to eng probably late 1800,s then goes home gets hitched and then comes back to set up house , re 1911 cen are you saying minnie and dau living alone in kent & mb is listed at a custom house essex ? and if in 1901 he,s listed as a house surgeon why in 1911 is he listed as a student am i right so far cos i have more questions to ask but it,s getting complicated as it is ;D
trevor
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Hi Trevor, yes minnie and daughter living alone 1911 census, m b living at Custom house listed student but occ Medical Practitioner so I think at that time he must have been furthering his medical qualifications. Making any sense???
Just noticed 1911 cen for MB states Widower Married but could just be enum. error
Chris
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chris this creating more questions than answers now , ok yes i,m with you re his furthering his career ,as house surgeon could be similar to a houseman now ,so settle for that at the moment , and pos that on cen night he had been called out to someone ill at a custom house so would be counted in at that address not his own , where was the customs house in essex only there is still the prob why send a dr from kent area to essex , it feels like they must both be close to the thames .
tell me if i,m getting to far away from your original post only i,m known for delving into things and trying to get all the meat off a bone , also not knowing where you are , as i,m in eng it,s getting near time to lay my weary head down , will pick this up in the morning , only it,s a great thread and very intriguing , i,ll wait for your reply then finish for tonight
trevor
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Hi Trevor, I'm also in England so my bed is also calling, just to finish for the night, custom house is reg District West Ham. I come from up north so I'm not fam. with southern districts would need to look at a map. Anyway I'll say good night and we will continue tomoz.
Chris
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ok chris speak tomorrow good night ;D trevor
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Looks like Malcolm and Minnie married in England not NZ
Marriage
Malcom Bell HAY
Minnie SYMS
Dec 1/4 1902 vol 2a page 789
Reg District KINGSTON which spans Middlesex/Sussex
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morning chrisane
this is getting more intriguing as we go along , as chris states they were married in christchurch nz , unless they did it twice to satisfy both sets of parents !!!!! ,
trevor
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Hi
The UK Medical Registers indicate he was well qualified by 1911, the census only indicates where a person stayed on the night of the census and not necessarily where a person lived. He could have simply been doing a course of some sort. His address in the 1919 & 1927 register is West African Medical Service.
He would likely have had quite lengthy leave each year which would account for his various trips between Gold Coast & England. You should be able to work out his comings and goings from passenger lists.
Its likely that their daughter eventually went to boarding school in England, this was quite common.
Andy
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Good Morning Trevor & Andy, I his marriage from an announcement in the BJM I have got mixed up his father married in N.Z. so you are right Andy. A bit of background, M.B. comes from 3 generations of Doctors, His Grandfather my 3 x Grt Grdfth William Hay b1804 was a Surgeon/Medical Practioner in Eskdalemuir,Dumfries for upwards of 50 years, intresting bit of info the poor man was thrown from his horse and suffered spinal injury to his neck death 1879. M.B.s Father Thomas Bell Hay son of William was b1836 Eskdalemuir,Dumf. he qual. as doctor 1866 in England and then went to N.Z. where he married Emily Williams and they had 2 kids M.B. and Emily Mary. T.B. died N.Z. 19/8/1879.
The add. M.B. is at on 1911 census is I think a hospitalas all other persons on it are patients. It also states occ. medical practioner colonial officer.
sorry it was crisane whofound the marriage not Andy.
Over to you.
Chris
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morning chris
just got up have we ;D ;D ;D
as andy and fifer say it makes sense that the trips in and out of eng were for leave ,
now do you have any idea wether mb and family stayed here and settled in eng only i,ve had a quick look for a death reg for mb and nothing so far will keep looking
trevor
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me again
found a death for a malcolm b hay year 1948 age 71 dist pancras vol5d p 367
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Hi Trevor,he died over here, I haven't yet found a death for minnie but must admit not yet looked proper.
Name: Malcolm B Hay
Death Registration Month/Year: 1948
Age at death (estimated): 71
Registration district: Pancras
Inferred County: London
Volume: 5d
Page: 367
Also found hisdeath annon. in a newspaper on Anc.
Chris
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try this one chris
minnie hay birth date 28 aug 1879 died 1969 dist wandsworth vol 5e p 1251
now thats a wonderful age if it,s her
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Trevor lookslike the daughter married over here:
Name: Margaret O B Hay
Spouse Surname: Wilson
Date of Registration: Apr-May-Jun 1928
Registration district: Westhampnett
Registration county (inferred): Sussex
Volume Number: 2b
Page Number: 945
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Yea Trevor , just found that one myself for Minnie I thought the same about her age!!
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Trevor the emigration records you got, where did you get them from, because I'm on Ancestory and there not on there only get the incoming pass.
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Hi annron
If you have Ancestry have a look at the UK Medical Registers on there. They have the registers for every 4th year and they have his various addresses
Andy
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i, was justabout to post that marriage in case you havent gotit his full name is logie w wilson , and the migration records are from find my past its great for them and military records and 1911 cen index if nothing else
trevor
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Thanks Andy, only just joined anc. so not familiar with all records yet.
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Hi annron
They are under Directories & Members Lists as are British Phone Books which might also be worth looking at
Andy
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The shipping records on FindMyPast are transcribed by his initials only but show him as Dr M B Hay bound for
Sekondi-Takoradi, Ghana (Gold Coast).
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looking backat records, I do have some evidence of a marriage for mb in n.z.
HAY-Sym.-At Christ Churoh, Butbiton, on the 11th instant Malcolm Bell Hay,
M.R.C.S. L.R C P son of the late T. B. Hay, M R C.S., L Rb P of Ohristchurch,
New Zeald'd -to Minnie, second daughter of Frederick Richard gyms, of Lanreath,
the Avenue, Aurbiton.
Announced in BJM Nov 1902
so minnie's parents must also have gone to n.z.
Have looked at medical registers and mb at various address in UK.
One intresting fact on some of the incoming pass. lists address in UK as Royal Society Club, St James St, London. Was this some sort of Medical Research centre?
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thanks crisane, wonder if he was working on the ships as a doctor, what do you think?
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the royalsociety club is stated as a dining club
trevor
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Thanks Trevor, this gets more intriguing by the minute!!
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Google search for R.S.C. brings up various clubs St James St, London, one of them being Royal Society of Medicine, so that was prob. where mb was a member.
Chris
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thanks crisane, wonder if he was working on the ships as a doctor, what do you think?
In 1907 he certainly was. Ship R. M. S. Antony. Commander Harry Forbes, Surgeon Dr M B Hay.
Departed Liverpool Intended destination Manaus Brazil date of arrival 9 Oct 1907
The other voyages are 1912, 1916, 1919, 1921, 1923, 1924 and 1926.
as someone has already said I also think he was an employee of the Colonial Govt and his fellow passengers are also have the same employer but in varying capacities.
Is it possible that the NZ record of marriage you have is an announcement of Malcolm and Minnies marriage'
taking place in England and just letting the familę's friends in NZ know about it. I say this because there is no record of a marriage on NZ BMD's.
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Wow Crisane, thanks for the info, what an intresting chappie m.b. has turned out to be. Me being not of the same brain capacity as m.b. what does r.m.s. stand for?
Sorry miss read your quote thats the ships name dooh!!!
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Just to clarify the marriage - Nothing on the NZ marriage index,so had a quick look on the paperspast site and there was an announcement in the Evening Post on 31/12/1902;
PERSONAL NOTES FROM LONDON.
(From Our OwnCorrespondent.) LONDON, 21st November.
At Christ Church, Surbiton, the .wedding recently took place of Mr. Malcolm Bell Hay, M.R.C.S., L.R.C.P., only son of the late Mr. T. B. Hay, of Christchurch, New Zealand, and Miss Minnie' Syms, second daughter of Mr. F. R. Syms, of Lanreath, the Avenue, Surbiton.
Hope this is useful :D
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royal mail ship
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Hi
The National Archives has a mention of him serving in the navy in WW1
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/documentsonline/details-result.asp?queryType=1&resultcount=1&Edoc_Id=7549447
I would check for an obituary in a medical journal or a bio in perhaps a Civil Service who's who. Also google West African Medical Service.
Andy
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Andy, the document on Nat. Arch. if I order the document do you know what sort of info it would give me. Also your ref. to bio in perhaps a civil service who's who. do I just google that.
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Hi Everybody
Just to say thanks and to let you all know who helped with my research of M. B. Hay, I downloaded the doc. from nat. arch. that Andy found and this is the info:-
Serving with 3rd Company Field Ambulance. Details of Doc Below:- 17.5.16 AFB 103 Recd. 20.9.15 To 3rd Field ambulance Galipolli (with unit) Diarrhoea. 23.9.15 from Hosp. Galipolli (to duty) 22.11.15 instructed to proceed to England on duty from Galipolli. 17.5.16 Recd. D.O. 16 28.4.16 (Field Amb.)Instructed to proceed to England on duty 22.11.15. 25.7.16 Wrote C.O. Medical Unit Blandford for present disposal. 28.7.16 Recd. Reply for O.C. Medical Unit, Ref. MU/644 This Officers appoint with R.N.D., terminated on 13th December 1915, his services being placed at the disposal of the Colonial Office for duty with the West African Medical Staff.
Have googled west african medical staff and this produced some very interesting info on the terrible conditions these men found themselves in.
Chris
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well chris its been an eventfull couple of days for you , andies come up with some great work credit to him ;)
mb was lucky to get away from gallipoli ill or not that encounter was hell on earth for all concerned ..
take care
trevor
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Trevor he sure was lucky to get out of there. Last thought of the day "we are so lucky and makes you realise how grateful we should be to those men, freedom is a wonderful thing"
Thanks again to everybody, when your new to this game your knowledge helps so much.
Chris
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AMEN to that and to all those still fighting for it
trevor
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Just a quick twopennyworth to explain the difference in the dates of sailings.
Find My Past has the emigration records- ie when the ships left the UK.
Ancestry has incoming passenger lists....so that would be dates when they came back into the UK.
Does that tie up?
Carol
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Hi Carol
Thanks for that, yes I realised that was the difference and yes they do tie up more or less.
Thanks for your input
Chris
PS love the pic. of your little ones, georgous.