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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Argyllshire => Topic started by: Keith Sherwood on Friday 08 April 05 12:55 BST (UK)
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Hi, Everyone,
This is my first tentative posting on a North-of-the-Border query. In the 1881 Census, I discovered a Daniel and Betsey Dyson, both aged 65, living at "Buthkollidar, Cott. No. 2, Dunoon and Kilmun". Does this address exist today, or might it have been a farm or farm dwelling..?"
Very best wishes,
keith
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Hi Keith,
It would now appear to be the name of a caravan & camping park in the Bullwood area south of the town of Dunoon. The postcode of the park is PA23 7QN. I would think that the park got its name from the name of farm dwellings/crofts that used to be there. The name doesn't appear on the current OS map or the old maps of the area. Hope that helps.
Nell
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Thanks so much for that, Nell. In fact, I've just realised that we know a family who live in Dunoon, and I'll give them a ring tonight about this...
Keith
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Talking to myself again, but apparently at the present time "Buthkollidar" is pronounced by the locals as "Balaclava". Now there's a surprise, and as far-fetched as some of those little places in Norfolk, for instance.
The place I lived in near Glasgow when I was about 4-5 years old. Milnegavie was/ and is pronounced Mill-guy...
Keith
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Hi Keith, I have a little info re.Buthkollidar as I found my g.grandfather, coachman, in the next house to your Dyson, who was gardener, I see at the same time. Buthkollidar was a large dwelling house just outside Dunoon about 150yds. from the sea. The proprietor was a John Mannifold. The house itself was "allowed" to burn down between the wars and a row of small houses built on the land. An unusual feature is the gardener´s and coachman´s houses which are semidetached and still extant, most attractive and built of concrete. One is called Buthkollidar Cottage, the other escapes me. The locals seemed to understand my phonetic pronunciation, and the mechanic at the Balaclava Garage opposite was most helpful and informative. Kollid was a pirate and Buth is from the norse buđ, a house. Contact me for any further info.
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Hi, Thrall (and welcome to Rootschat!),
Amazing that this small thread has lain dormant for over 3 months, and now someone like you pops up with genuine - and fascinating - local knowledge on the subject. I've since discovered that the "Balaclava" pronunciation is not indeed the way that Buthkollidar has become to be pronounced, an aberration on the part of a local contact of mine; though the Balaclava Garage might seem to give some substance to this theory.
I would be very interested in anything else you might have on the subject, and find it very exciting that you have a direct ancestor who was part of the John Manifold workforce too!
Very best wishes,
Keith
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Hi Keith and Thrall,
Please excuse my butting in here. The post caught my eye because of the mention of Dunoon - my children's ancestor, Margaret (LOCHTIE) PHILP of Fife, died in Argyle St Dunoon in 1861 at her daughter's residence.
A Google for Buthkollidar gets quite a few hits - including one referring to the MANIFOLDs. The caravan park is listed as being at Bullwood. Bullwood is on Multimap but I couldn't find Buthkollidar there.
However, Bullwood does appear as a place in Argyllshire on the oldmaps site. And scrolling around from there finds Buthkollidar.
The co-ordinates reference is:
Grid Ref: 215646,672833
If you are scrolling, go down along the coast from Bull Rock past Glengarr and Hoop House and you will find it. If you get to Cluniter you've gone too far.
Cheers,
JAP
PS: Good to see you've moving away from South Britain, Keith ;) Time to start polishing up the credit card for some searches on ScotlandsPeople?
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Hi, Jap,
It's always good to diversify and spread one's horizons isn't it! (That's the wonderful aspect about Family History research, doing it in a retrospective way, though). The Dunoon air I imagine to be extremely bracing, and I do intend to take a trip up there in the not too distant future.
And thanks very much that all that info about Buthkollidar, as my initial enquiries had drawn a bit of a blank. Now two excellent responses within a day brings the whole thing to life again..
Keith
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Hi Keith,
Mine was in no way an 'excellent' response - Thrall's response definitely was! Mine completely peripheral.
My children's ancestor's daughter's husband (think I've got that right) James MITCHELL was a draper in Argyle St Dunoon when Margaret (LOCHTIE) PHILP died there in 1861 (as PHILIP); Margaret's daughter Jessie Lochtie MITCHELL died there in 1876.
Being on the other side of the world, I can't take a trip to the bracing air of Dunoon. But some of the info I've seen in the past suggests that it truly was bracing - and that many people (including TB sufferers) went to convalescent hospitals there.
Cheers,
JAP
(in my initials the P stands for PHILIP - spelled any which way over the years)
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Hi again, Jap,
Peripheral vision is a marvellous thing at times too! It really must be very frustrating living on the other side of the world trying to get at ancestral info. without the help of the internet; I'll certainly have a good poke about in the Dunoon area when I eventually get there and look up anything that might be of interest to you. (Can't promise when). I believe the 1851 and 1861 Censuses are not on the ScotlandsPeople site yet, but can be viewed for the local area in Dunoon itself in the Museum or Library there (can't precisely remember which without checking.)
Mind you, on behalf of another (extremely) esteemed Rootschatter recently I had a lovely time in mid-Wales studying gravestones and a possible ancestral dwelling, gathering the info, only to discover that she'd given me an incorrect name to chase down.
But I had fun, nonetheless...
Keith
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Hi Keith, My g.grandfather was Duncan Campbell, and in fact I only found details of his birth last week in the Scottish Archives in Edinburgh - there were 9 pages of minutes of the kirk session meetings at Kilchrennan in 1845-6 on Loch Awe re his paternity - just goes to show that records can be found though no birth is registered. He was married to Margaret Moyes Dick in 1873, and seems to have moved to Buthkollidar between 1875 and 1877, with one daughter, and 3 children being born in B., my grandfather being named Duncan as myself. They moved up the road to Dunoon (to a bigger house?) sometime after 1886, and to Innellan before 1901. I tried to find out when these gardener's/coachman's houses were built without much success, but am very impressed by how old they are for concrete dwellings, perhaps some of the first in Scotland. Manifold seems to have been leesing Buthkollidar in 1882, but have bought it before 1886. In the valuation roll then, it is spelled Buth-Kollidar. If you go up there, tread very carefully, as the occupants of the left house are very sensitive about photos etc.; best to have a word first, then you´ll probably be invited in for a cup of tea! The only other feature that remains to my knowledge, is a very tall tree which used to stand in front of the big house and is now behind the row of small houses. The view is wonderful of the Clyde and over to the far shore; this was a fairly prosperous area in the second half of the 19th century, and easy to commute to Glasgow by ferry and train; took less than an hour. I was told that there are caves on the shore, under the garage which were possibly used by Kollid the pirate. I went there two years ago and stayed a few days scratching around as my father was brought up in Innellan, so ask if you have any further questions. One from myself: how are you related to Dyson, and how did he arrive in Buthkollidar?
Best wishes,
Thrall
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Thrall,
Thanks so much for all that on-the-spot detail about Buthkollidar, and for warning me about possible local reaction to an "intruder"!
Gt-gt-grandfather Daniel Dyson's first wife, Isabella, died at an early age of TB in the Liverpool area in 1848. He remarried in 1849, and I am beginning to think that as early as 1851 he may have moved to the Dunoon area. (no sign of him in the 1851 English Census). This may have been because this part of Britain was supposed to be good for TB sufferers, or more likely that the man John Manifold for whom he was a gardener at Buthkollidar was also from Liverpool, and might have asked Daniel to move up there. (Having perhaps known him in Liverpool before he, John Manifold, retired as a merchant and moved to Scotland)
Daniel Dyson had been a gardener in Wavertree, near Liverpool, on both his 1843 and 1849 marriages. Much of this is guesswork based on the rather threadbare early facts...
Very best wishes,
Keith
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Hi Keith, after a pause for reflection and now correction.
An eminent Scottish place name scholar has the following to say, thus discounting more or less the theory proposed to me on my visit some years ago:
First element looks more like modern Sc Gaelic bůth _shop_, rather than both _hut, bothy_ etc. Re second element, various meanings quoted from other sources by McLean 1985, 35-6, including cůiltear _smuggler, skulker. Dwelly (most comprehensive Gaelic-English dictionary) has coilleadair, see coinnealair, _tallow-chandler, candle-maker, which starts to look much more plausible.
Just to round things off for the present!
Best wishes,
Thrall
P.S. Have you been up to visit yet, Keith?
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Hi again, Thrall,
Yes I did, last July...But as a matter of fact I'm returning with my family at the end of August to see the Cowal Games. Hoping to have a bit of time to potter about and follow a few genealogical footprints,
Regards, keith
Very interesting bit of place name research on your behalf, by the way - many thanks for that!
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Hello Keith, just as a side line to this thread, the Cowal Games shop on Hillfoot st was my GGrandfather and Grandfathers plumbers shop, they both were called Hugh Stewart and both served on the games committee. Several years ago my mother and aunt presented a prize at the games in honor of my grandfather after he had passed away so I would love to hear about your trip when you get back. Cheers Merideth (Australia)
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Merideth,
Fascinating piece of personal family history! Will take my camera (of course) and will PM you when I get back at the beginning of September...
Regards,
keith
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Hi, Just reading throgh the posts, and if you need any photo's done (weather Permitting) I would be more than happy too ,
Since I live in the Area,
Keith let me know how long you will be in Dunoon for, might manage to help with the Balaclava /Bullwood area if you need it
Syb
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Castle House Museum has full plans of the area and all the land transactions in exceptional detail which have taken place since what was Dunoon Estate was sold off in feus. If you intend to visit to have a look at these it may be as well to make sure that I am there.
Name probably means place of the woodsman's hut( Angus McLean, Placenames of Cowal)
Telephone 01369 701422
website www. castlehousemuseum.org.uk
email info[at]castlehousemuseumm.org.uk (replace [at] with @)
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Trying to do this systematically, Have consulted 1850 map which shows a large portion of land leased to John Manifold. The plots either side are fully measured and were owned by the Powell family. ( Sir Francis - very famous watercolourist)
The Manifold plot must extend about a half mile along the shore. It has the house Buthkollidar drawn in ,and about two thirds the size,at exactly the 3 mile stone from Dunoon it has a building designated as Offices. More towards Innellan there is a smaller building. I have taken a picture of the plan. I think the original lease was dated 1836 and by 1888 there were 4 leases when the land was sold to James Hamilton Dunn , writer in Paisley
Thrall: Was your g grandfather Duncan Campbell the blacksmith at Toward? I have seen a land transaction which refers to sale of a plot on behalf of the deceased in 1907.
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Thanks for that, Museum Man 2;
I am really trying to find out the age of the two joined houses, Buthkollidar Cottage and ?Murrayfield?, I can´t quite remember the name of the righthand house i.e. whether this is the house my family lived in, or a previous one.
If you scroll back to the former posts on this subject, you will see my family.
Sorry I´m not connected to Duncan Campbell, blacksmith, at Toward, but great grandson of Duncan Campbell, coachman and gardener at Buthkollidar, and grandson of Dun Campbell, sic, bank manager of the Clydesdale, and session clerk, lived in Seaforth, Innellan.
John Manifold died in late December 1887, hence the sale thereafter. He was titled "retired sugar refiner" on the DC, but on censuses called himself "magistrate".
Any further information about the "big house" and its demise would be welcome. Any photographs?
Thank you again for your input.
Thrall
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Hi Everyone,
Just a passing note to say what a wonderful time I had in Dunoon last week at the Cowal Games - had no idea how enormously long that caber is. Even though the man mountains warmed up by nonchalantly flinging a 56-pound weight (backwards) over a bar about 14 feet off the ground, only one or two completed a successful toss.
The pipe bands were what drew me most of all, the Black Bottle Isle of Islay band won about three trophies in their category and as they were staying in our hotel you can imagine that nobody got much sleep on Saturday night.
Didn't have any time for family history, I'm afraid, just gazed wistfully up the hill at the Museum building each time I passed and imagined having a look in there next time.
And, amazingly, the threatened rain never properly materialised...
Regards, keith
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Hi Keith
Glad you enjoyed the Games, I didn't go myself but had the pleasure of listening to some of the bands warming up on my doorstep almost, I did watch the march through the town on the webcam as with some of the fellow chatters from the chat room, next time give me a shout and I will put the coffee on :), loved seeing everyone doing the Hokey Cokey as one of the bands played it,
Sybil
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Hello I am new to this but was doing some surfing looking for places in Dunoon Kilmun and your discussion on the pronunciation of Buthkollidar caught my eye.
My g.g.g.grandparent Alexander Grierson was recorded in the 1851 Census as being resident at Baluacaber Dunnoon Kilmun.
Would this be the same place?
He married Helen McKellar, daughter of Peter McKellar and Margaret Campbell, Margaret Campbell was the daughter of Duncan Campbell and Nancy McNaught. I am stuck at this point can any one point me in the right direction?
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Hi Wyanga, can you tell me the names of the properties on either side of Baluacaber in the 1851 census?
I am not very optimistic about this name/pronunciation change, but I do have the valuation roll for the Shore Road Dunoon to Innellan and could confirm whether the correct properties were on one or other side - if they were built in 1851!
Guid hunting, and a very warm welcome to RootsChat.
Thrall
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Hi again, I had a quick look at the O.S. map 1inch from 1854-69, and the name Buthkollidar is there, along with Cluniter, the next house to the south, so it was in use in that survey with that spelling.
Thrall
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Hi Thrall
Thank you for your reply. I am at a loss on this as I am another downunder participant in this interchange, hence my trouble with the pronunciation ! I only have access to the Ancestry transcription of the 1851 census , not the original, which would allow for more detail re the adjoining houses. I have also found that sometimes the transcriptions do not always faithfully replicate what is in the original.
I visited Glasgow a couple of years ago on my ancestral search but did not get up to Dunoon or Kilmun. All of this discussion makes me feel like returning and visiting the area as there is so much more to be researched in the area.
Wyanga
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Hi Wyanga, I had a look at the census return on S.P. and am swithering between Baluacaber and Balnacaber. Neither option bows to Google.
Although the name is written three times, I am not certain.
He certainly seems to have been an enterprising gent., your Alexander with a wife forty years his junior, her family living in and his brother in law the only wage earner as an ag. lab. What does his D.C. reveal?
Strange to see his daughter Helen in two extracted entries with the same date but three years apart. A mistake or early death?
I.G.I doesn´t reveal much in Wigton except that someone was busy with a tree submitting eighteen years ago!
Guid hunting,
Thrall
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Thanks Thrall,
Yes what a household it must have been, a 10 yr old daughter at age 88 is quite an achievment too. I think the second registration for Helen was a "squaring of the book". the first was as the 'illigiamate' daughter, the second 9 months after the intervening mariage. I don't have a D.C. for Alexander, which I need to ascertain his parents names, plenty of Griersons every where else in Dumfries-shire but havn't found another born in Wigton about 1760.
Did the S.P. Census record give you a location for Baluacaber ?
Cheers Wyanga
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Hello. Have had the quickest of glances at your recent correspondence re Alexander Grierson in 1851
Feel that there is a fair chance that the name you are looking for is in fact Barnacabber.
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Thank you Museum Man 2 that could be the solution. The 1841 census for Alexander Grierson says Barnacabar
1851 census says Baluacaber.
Maybe they are phoenetic variations of Barnacabber as you suggest.
Can you tell me where Barnacabber is located?
Wyanga
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It is more than likely that the confusion with Baluacaber is simply poor handwriting or the recorder failing to have an understanding of what was being said or indeed poor local knowledge. There are a few sensible references to Barnacabber on the internet amongst a load of rubbish.
It was apparently the home farm for the Glenfinart Estate.
It is situated near to Ardentinny on Loch Long which lies north of Dunoon on the River Clyde. If you follow the River Finart which flows into the loch just north of Ardentinny you will find it about a mile up the river.
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Museum Man 2
You are a gem ! Thank you for the details, it is all starting to make the few details that I have on the family come together. If I wasn't 12,000 miles away, downunder, I would come and thank you personaly
Wyanga
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my aunt and uncle lived in buthkollidar cottage for years until theydied.They were called mary and robert docherty, as far as i know it was robert,s family holiday home, they used to come from glasgow to holiday in it. He inherited when his parents died, and it was eventually sold in1995 whenmy aunt died. They lived on the right side of the cottages, they moved into it in the 60,s. It was great to holiday there it was such a beautiful spot. I don,t really know much more about it than that.
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Hi, Gorbals, and welcome to Rootschat!
Fascinating to read your post, which fills in a little more history on the Buthkollidar Cottages. I haven't been back since the 2008 Cowal Games, but you're right, it is a lovely spot...
Regards, keith
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Hi there Keith,
According to my mother, I am the great great grandson of James Paton, husband of Isabella Dyson.
She is buried in Dunoon, at the episcopal church. Visited the grave yesterday.
My grandfather used to visit his grandparents in Innellan, I know which house. Think it s called Craigmore. Have a picture of it.
Yours
Jon
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Hi, Jon, and welcome to Rootschat!
This remarkable thread keeps bursting back into life, and in this last case after a gap of nearly five years. I will contact you now via the e-mail you have supplied here, but you really ought to delete it/ get one of the moderators to delete it, as it is of course in the public domain, and your privacy is compromised.
Very exciting to hear from someone directly descended from Isabella Dyson, though!
Regards, Keith