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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Lancashire => Topic started by: Lisa500 on Friday 15 October 10 15:20 BST (UK)
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Hello there,
I am trying to find any information anyone has on John and Eleanor Saul (Eleanor Crowe prior to marriage, born approx 1879 +/-2).
They were married in 1907 and had around 7/8 children in Preston. We suspect that Eleanor prior to marrying John, had an illegitimate baby in 1905 on the Wirral called Marjorie, (my Grandmother).
We have them on the 1911 census and also have ordered their wedding certificate and have traced Eleanor's parents in the IOM on past census. I've listed below John & Eleanor's children (inc. dob), however in addition to the below, on the 1911 census they have a baby called Mable, aged 7 so prior to their marriage. Its also odd that on the wedding certificate they share the same address.
If anyone knows anything about this family or is a relative of them, it would be very much appreciated if you could help with information about them.
Thank you
Lisa
John 10/04/1908
Eleanor 11/11/1910
Kathleen 31/12/1911
Ivy 22/06/1914
Stanley 02/12/1916
Harold 20/08/1918
Clifford 21/02/1920
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Hi Lisa,
Having searched FreeBMD for possible marriages of a Mr Saul to a Miss Crowe I can only find one: John Saul and Eleanor Crowe in 1907. So the following birth registrations are probably all children of your John and Eleanor:
Source: Lancashire BMD
Sub-District: East Preston
Registers at: Preston
All with Mother's Maiden name: CROWE
1908: John SAUL- Reference: EP/10/92
1909: Eleanor SAUL- Reference: EP/14/15
1912: Mary Kathleen SAUL - Reference: EP/18/12
1913: William Ernest SAUL - Reference: EP/20/78
1914: Ivy Marie SAUL - Reference: EP/22/81
1916: James Stanley SAUL - Reference: EP/26/81
1918: Harold SAUL - Reference: EP/28/93
1920: Clifford SAUL - Reference: EP/30/89
1923: James Leslie SAUL - Reference: PEAST/11A/4
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on the 1911 census they have a baby called Mable, aged 7 so prior to their marriage.
On LancashireBMD there is a Mabel Crowe registered in 1903, Sub-District: Trinity, Registers at: Preston with a mother's maiden name of Crowe, Reference: TR/66/66
Same birth registration on FreeBMD:
Births Sep 1903
Crowe Mabel - Preston - Vol 8e - Page 525
Possibly the Mabel on the 1911 census?
We suspect that Eleanor prior to marrying John, had an illegitimate baby in 1905 on the Wirral called Marjorie, (my Grandmother).
Do you have a birth certificate for your grandmother?
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Thank you for the information Ron.
The Mabel record you found could be the one we are looking for, so we'll try and look more into that. On the 1911 census she is Mabel Saul, rather than Crowe, so we are not sure if John Saul is the father or whether after marrying him in 1907 he took Mabel on as his own. But in those days if a woman had a baby out of wedlock she wouldn't have kept it, then of course there is the birth of my Grandma in 1905, again before she married John (and who was adopted out), so it doesn't really make sense. We know John served in the army so we wondered if they married later because he was overseas.
We didn't realise they had another child in 1923, so a good find.
We do have my grandmothers birth certificate. All it says is that mother is Eleanor Crowe, gives occupation as Domestic Servant and an address in Hoylake. Very strangely in the fathers column it lists the name Thomas Shields but the name is crossed out. On the christening certificate, mother and father are listed as Thomas & Eleanor, surname Crowe, but again the name Thomas is crossed out.
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The address on John & Eleanor's wedding certificate is:
Residence at time of marriage: 8 Windy Hill, Lancaster
If I put this into google maps it comes up with a location just outside of Carnforth.
On freebmd it shows the wedding details as:
Church / Register Office: Lancaster Register Office or Registrar Attended
Registers At: Preston
Region: Lancashire
What does 'Registers At' mean? As this says Preston, but they got married in the register office in Lancaster and were registered as living in Carnforth. However they appear on other information to be living in Preston in most of the 1900's, so if someone could help me interpret what 'Registers At' means that would be helpful.
Thanks
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Hi Lisa,
'Registers at' simply means the Local Register Office (LRO) where the original BMD registers are now kept. A copy of each BMD certificate is sent from the Local Register Office to the General Register Office (GRO). When a Local Register Office closes the registers from that office are usually transferred to a nearby register office.
LancashireBMD, CheshireBMD etc... have the references needed to order BMD certificates from the individual Local Register Offices and FreeBMD have the references needed to order certificates from the General Register Office. GRO references are only of use when ordering from the GRO and mean nothing to the Local Register Office and vice versa.
The upside of LancashireBMD, CheshireBMD etc... is that for births a mother's maiden name is sometimes given prior to 1911. FreeBMD only lists mother's maiden names from Sep 1911 onwards. Also on LancashireBMD etc... a marriage gives a definite couple whereas on FreeBMD upto 8 names (4 females and 4 males) can appear for each reference and you can't be sure which male married which female. LancashireBMD etc... also gives some ages at death prior to 1866.
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It would appear that the William Earnest Saul listed in my first reply died aged 0 in 1913.
Source: Lancashire BMD
Lancashire Death indexes for the year 1913
Sub-District: East Preston
Registers at: Preston
William Ernest Saul - Aged 0 - Reference: EP/13/38
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Thanks for the explanation Ron, that makes sense now, so we can be sure they got married in Lancaster, not Preston. My Grandmother remembers seeing on her adoption papers the words Carnforth and Christchurch, so this Eleanor Crowe living in Carnforth at the time of marriage also gives evidence that this is the Eleanor we are looking for. My Auntie is also writing to Christ Church in Carnforth to see if they have any information on either Eleanor or my Grandma's adoption.
I'll have a look on the UKBMD site you suggested as well :)
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Have you checked the address given on your grandmother's birth certificate on the 1901 and 1911 census?
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Hi Ron, Yes we have and its an address in Hoylake, this is the strange thing about it, why would she have traveled all the way to Hoylake from Preston/Carnforth to have the baby? I know if it was illegitimate she wouldn't have had it at home, but Hoylake seems an odd choice. Plus if she had Mable in 1903, then who was looking after Mable during the time Eleanor was in Hoylake?
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New to this, found this website by chance. Mabel Crowe was my grandmother, we know little of her past but we knew she was illegitimate and her siblings as named were her step family born to John Saul after marrying her mother. All the things mentioned about her past we were unaware of and would like to share what we know.
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Lisa can I clarify something you said in an earlier message about illegitimate children not being kept by the mother my research has found the opposite to be true. I have numerous instances in my family and others that I've helped other people with and all of them kept the baby/babies and brought them up whether as a sibling to the mother's siblings or openly as their mother.
I'm not saying that many didn't give their children up for adoption and there were some lucky ones who sometimes were taken in by other family members. There were lots of women who kept their babies and then changed the child's name to their husbands on marriage.
I suggest that you look for a relative in the Hoylake area who could have taken Eleanor in for her confinement and the cover story was she was a domestic servant. Maybe after the birth she went back home with the consent of her parents to ride out the storm.
How soon after the birth was the Christening because as sure as eggs is eggs Thomas was the likely father. Maybe you could find something about him because she didn't pluck his name out of the air.
Margaret
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Hi there,
Thank you Margaret & Sumpter for your responses.
Sumpter - I am very glad you got in touch. Am I right in saying that John was not Mables father? Do you know who the father was? When we've been researching Eleanor we just presumed John Saul was the father of Mabel but being born out of wedlock. Any information about Mable and Eleanor would be greately appreciated.
Margaret - Thanks for the tip about looking for a relative in Hoylake. From memory her birth and Christening were exactly one month apart, meaning that she hung around Hoylake for quite some time. I really do think Thomas Shields was the father, its just so very odd that his name is crossed out on the birth and Christening certificate. Unfortunately unlike Eleanor Crowe, Thomas Shields is a very popular name so its difficult to trace him.
Do you think its strange that if this is the same Eleanor Crowe that she would have kept Mabel (born 1903) but had Marjorie (born 1905) adopted? Also Mable was born in Preston, so why did she feel she had to go to Hoylake for Marjorie?
Thanks again
Lisa
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If you think about it having one child born out of wedlock although not acceptable was endured for many women but to have two illegitimate children she would have been seen as the lowest of the low. She could have been forced by family to give Marjorie up for adoption but maybe things had changed by the time she had Mabel so she could keep her.
I've seen many instances where women have kept two babies and I have one marriage certificate that states she is a widow and it's crossed out and spinster added. So she could have been passing herself off as a widow for years. We may never know what happened to Eleanor and her reasons for keeping one and not the other but either way she ended up back home and married.
Eleanor could have gone to Hoylake to cover up the pregnancy but she could also have been working there. Until we can get to know a little more about her life we won't know much more. Maybe you could do a timeline and see if that offers a solution.
Thomas Shields could have been living in Preston and Eleanor moved to Hoylake for the birth so don't dimiss finding him just yet.
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I only know Mabels history from what my father told me, he too was illigitimate and the father was in fact John Saul her stepfather. My father was "given" as a child to another family who took him in. He was reconciled with Mabel later in life when she had then married Jack Eaves. On the list of siblings there is no mention of Colin who Mabel looked after till his death in the 60's. My father was considered the skeleton in the cupboard right up to Mabels death even though he was her main carer. Unfortunately we have no documented evidence.
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Another sad story of a ruined life. It's such a shame that Mabel's life (like many others) was distorted by her step-father or was he her real father you'll never know will you?
You might not have any documented evidence right now but here's your opportunity to build some for her and your father so that future generations will know the truth.
I'll see if I can find Colin for you.
Margaret
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I can't find a birth or death for a Colin Saul could Colin have been his middle name?
Where was Mabel living when he died?
Margaret
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Hi Sumpter,
Thanks again for your reply.
I think from what you’ve said John Saul was not Mable’s father, but that John Saul got Mable (his step daughter) pregnant and had your father. Apologies if I’m getting confused but is Colin your father as I wasn’t sure from reading your post? Have I understood everything correctly?
I’m guessing given the situation you don’t know anything about Mable or Eleanor’s history? I don’t suppose you have any photographs of Mable as if we have the same Eleanor that would make them half sisters so we could see if there was any resemblance.
Lisa
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I understood what Sumpter said but there is no proof at the moment that he wasn't Mabel's father is there so it can't be discounted? Maybe once you exchange information things may become clearer.
By doing a timeline it would be clearer what information is still needed.
I really hope that somewhere along the way you both find the missing link between the two families.
Margaret
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Lisa,
Sorry about the confusion. Colin was the youngest son of John and Eleanor ,so was Mabels step brother. My father was Ronald, Mabels illegitimate son whose father I believe was John Saul. I will try and find a picture of Mabel to send.
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I still can't find a birth or death record for Colin Saul do you know where he died and about how old he was? It's driving me mad. All I can think is that Colin was his middle name.
Margaret
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Sorry, but don't know any more about Colin, think he died around 1969/70 in Preston. I seem to remember that when Mabel was young she and her family lived in the Ribbleton area of Preston in Robin Street.
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Hi Sumpter,
Thanks for the offer to find a photo, that would be great to see. I recently found a document on the internet which appears to be John Saul’s army record, but it also lists his family details, so I thought it might be of interest to you. I don’t think it lists all their children, and unfortunately it does not list a Colin Saul. I've attached it to this post, so hope you can see it...
I’ve also noticed out of Eleanor’s daughters, all except one (who is called Eleanor) have a name beginning with an M (Mable, Mary Kathleen, Ivy Marie) and as I’ve said, my Grandmother was named Marjorie, so I wondered if this makes the case stronger for having found the right Eleanor, as she might have had a thing for M names! Could just be coincidence though…
Also on the 1901 census I have found a Catherine Crowe working as a domestic cook in Hoylake, born Isle of Man in 1878, the same year as Eleanor. I wonder if they could be related in any way and that’s why she went to Hoylake to have Marjorie. That said Eleanor’s family moved from IOM to Cleator when she was very young, so they may not have stayed in contact with any family.
Lisa
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This is Mabel probably aged about 20 to 25.
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This is Mabel with Kathleen Saul when they were both in their 80's.
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Thanks very much for posting the photos.
We don’t think she looks like Marjorie, however she does look very much like Marjorie’s daughter.
I’m not really sure where to go from here, in terms of knowing more information to confirm this is our Eleanor.
Are you in touch with any of the relatives of Eleanor & John’s children? I'm wondering if they would know if Eleanor had another child before marrying John or maybe have some photos of Eleanor?
Lisa
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Sorry but as far as I know there are no surviving children of John and Eleanor. I have little detail of them as Mabel wasn't one to discuss her family. I knew Ivy, who was married to Henry Rigby and lived in Cottam near Preston and later had a B&B in Fleetwood, she had one son Richard. Kathleens married name was Durkin and she lived in Darwen ,she had a son Tommy. One of the brothers was connected to the government in the Bahamas but not sure which one, my sister thinks it was Clifford. He was in constant touch with Mabel but I was led to believe he knew nothing of the existence of her son, my father. The daughter Eleanor was always known as "Lennie" and was at one time a Carmelite nun and lived in Bamber Bridge near Preston.
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Can I just suggest that given the sensitivity of some of this information that you are a little careful with what you post on a public forum. We ask people not to publish the details of living people or people who may be living on this forum.
If you think that there is anything that shouldn't be on here you can go back and edit your own posts to remove information. :)
Thanks,
Jean
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Glad you check,but all information is in the public domain.
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Thanks Sumpter, I guess unless I can track anyone else down its going to be very difficult to prove if this is our Eleanor Crowe or not. Its been a mystery in our family for years and years, but I’m still hopeful one day we’ll get the answer :)
If you ever do mange to find out any information then please do let me know.
The only last question I have is whether you know if Mable or Eleanor had ginger hair? Reason I ask is that my Auntie Joan who is the one who looks very much like Mable had ginger hair.
Thanks again for all your help
Lisa
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Sorry can't help with that as I only remember her with grey hair. I also seem to recall that Mabels mother lived with Mabel and her husband in the mid to late 50's in Cooper Street Preston and probably died there.
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Hi,
My name is Keith Smith formerly Keith Saul i am the grandson of Eleanor and John Saul.
looking to connect with anyone still following this thread.
Many thanks
Keith