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Research in Other Countries => Australia => Topic started by: tedscout on Saturday 16 October 10 07:19 BST (UK)
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Hi, thank you for reading. I'm hoping someone will be able to help me confirm or deny this story that I found on Genforum
Anne Maule born 1826, daughter of Alexander Maule and Margaret Hall.
Anne supposedly married John McNab Dec 1845/47 at Alloa but I cannot find the marriage entry. Several children followed and then they emigrated to Victoria Australia. John "disappeared" about August 1856 when their son Daniel was born. Subsequently her next child's father was listed as Edward Brown(e) who was from Ireland. He "disppeared" prior to 1871 and I suspect that they may not have been married at all. Anne or Annie as she was known then married Henry Goudheur in 1871. I have the cert for this one. However there appear to be no children from this marriage as she was 41 by this stage.
Then Henry Goudheur took off and married Catherine Marie Jones and had three children. Henry eventually died in 1887.
Annie lived out her life with her children and died in 1908 at Bendigo, Victoria.
Information from Western Australian sources sees to think that Edward Brown died in Melb in 1898. I cannot find a confirmation of this and remain a bit wary of this info.
Also in my notes I have a death date of 29 Dec 1851 for Alexander Maule but where this came from I have no idea and as such until it can be verified I remain wary.
Ive tried to get in touch with the person but cannot the email address is hidden and they havent answered any other messages.
Thank you everyone Cheers Ted
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Hi ted
Well there is a tree on Ancestry that agrees in part :-\ There it lists Alexander's death as 29 Dec 1851 so maybe where they got that info.
The 1851 Census shows the following at Alloa
John McNab 26
Anne 23
Robert 4
Daniel 2
Margaret 1 mth
Other than the 3 McNab children as per census it shows 3 Brown children
Marjorie May Brown b Vic 1852
Annie b Vic 1854
Daniel Edward 1857
These don't really make sense to me as there is a birth for Daniel McNab 1856 to John McNab and Ann Maule.
There is this BROWN birth 1858 at Ballarat
John James BROWN f Edward, m Ann Maul
Just to confuse you more :D
Annie
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Annie that may be my tree - is it the Wilson tree?
There is another one but they have similar to me
And I got the death date from Scotlands People
Thanks for looking
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LOL it is the wilson tree ;)
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Thats where I've been putting the info when I can varify it, then I did a google search using Annie Maule, and got that whole story but I cant get in touch with the author so I thought I'd try and confirm it but have hit a heap of brick walls
Thanks for looking 8) Ted
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Hi Ted,
Henry GOUDHEUR and Ann did have a child; a daughter named Isabella. I can't see a birth reg. but she was married in 1878 to William Henry DAY. Their Golden Wedding announcement naming Henry and Ann as parents http://www.rootschat.com/links/0a2r/ Apparently she was born around 1860, eleven years before they were married. There is another person who has Isabella in their tree on Ancestry and it is documented, so try contacting them. You will find it by searching for Isabella GOUDHEUR.
Death
1947
Balwyn, Victoria
Isabella DAY
aged 87
Father: Edward GOUDEUR
Mother: Annie MAULE
#9698
Makes you wonder if her father was Edward BROWN or Henry GOUD(H)EUR.
Some references with regard to the events mentioned in your first post:
Birth
1856
Magpie, Victoria
Daniel McNAB
Father: John McNAB
Mother: Ann MAULE
#12435
(looks like the Daniel they brought to Australia died in 1854)
Birth
1858
Ballaarat East, Victoria
John James BROWN
Father: Edward BROWN
Mother: Ann MAUL
#11627
Marriage
1871
Victoria
Henry GOEDHEER
Annie MAUL
#2749
Death
1908
Bendigo, Victoria
Annie GOUDEUR
aged 81
Father: Alexander MOULE
Mother: Margaret
#514
Death
1887
Murchison, Victoria
Henry GOEDHUR
aged 57
Father: Charles
Mother: Lucretia
#11355
Marriage
1885
Victoria
Henry GOEDHEER
Catherine Marie JONES
#3242
I can't see any of the BROWN children (Marjorie, Annie, Daniel) born in Victoria.
Debra :)
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Wow Dundee thank you so much for all the information you are wonderful. Cheers Ted
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(looks like the Daniel they brought to Australia died in 1854)
Can I ask how you know the first Daniel died in 1854.
I have found the 2nd Daniels buriel in Graytown Cemetery he died in 1875 aged 18.
Oh and it looks like Isobelle is Edward Browns daughter according to Annies death certificate that I have just purchased thanks to your information.
Will write out the info on the death cert in full but as my screen is rolling I will have to do it in Word and paste it here.
Cheers Ted
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Annie Maule’s death certificate states:
When and where: 27 Jan 1908, Wattle Street, City of Bendigo, County of Bendigo.
Name and Profession: Annie Goudeur, widow of butcher
Cause of death: Gastro Enteritis and exhaustion 26 hours
Name of Father and mother: Alexander Maule, Farmer, Margaret Maule formally unknown
Informant: cant read name but it is stated as Authorised Agent and the same signature is Authorised Agent for the death above so I don’t think this was a family member.
Burial registered: looks like she was buried on the same day at White Hills Cemetery.
Where, born etc: Unknown Scotland, 50 years Victoria
Now the interesting bit
If deceased was married: Typing this as exactly as written
1 marriage Robert died
Unknown Margaret died
Scotland Daniel died
Unknown Marjory 52 years
Edward Annie 50 years
Brown Daniel died
------------- John 46 years
2 marriage Isabell 45 years
Talbot Alexander 40 years
Unknown --------------------
Unknown None
Goudeur
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Hi Ted,
Death
1854
Victoria
McNAB, Daniel
aged 5
#4377
1851 Census
Tullibody, Aloa, Clackmannanshire
John McNAB, 26, farm servant
Anna, 36
Robert, 4
Daniel, 2
Margaret, 1
This is from a transcription, so you should check the original. John born Perthshire, and all the others Clackmannan. I would say this is their arrival:
Bourneup
Arr. Geelong 3 Sep 1852
John McNAB, Ag. Lab., 27, native of Perthshire, to be employed by John HASTIE at Colac.
Ann, 24, native of Clackmannan
Daniel, 3, native of Clackmannan
Interesting info on the cert - and another child after Isabella as well! Do you think the later ones really were all Edward's children?
Debra :)
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Hi Debra,
So little Daniel did arrive - I was beginning to think he died at sea as I couldnt find a death for him.
I presumed John and Annie headed to the goldfields now I wonder if John stayed and worked for John Hatie as I presume there would be some sort of indenture if assisted passage. And Annie nicked off with Edward Brown - Blimey what a set up.
I think Marjory May must have been John McNab's child as they arrive in September and Marjory is born in December - even though Edward Brown is listed as her father.
I love it when I find someone interesting to research ;D Ted
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ooooh wish I knew where Daniel died - dont want to spend $17.50 just to find that out though ???
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This is interesting - amazing what you can find when you do a random Google
http://www.weeklytimesnow.com.au/article/2009/10/07/119431_latest-news.html
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Another marriage to "TALBOT" ???
Can't see that one as yet ;D
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Aniph,
I think she married AT Talbot not to a Talbot.
Married Henry Goudeur in Talbot (Talbot is a place in Victoria known for gold mining)
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Ahh silly me:)
Thanks Ted
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Thats ok Aniph, I do that sort of thing all the time.
Trying to track down a death for John McNab - I like to tie up the loose ends.
Thanks for all your help, cheers Ted
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Hi Ted,
Gosh, the old Hastie place looks nice, but a bit out of my price range!! John's term of employment was for six months.
OK, this would be Annie:
Anne McNAB
Father: John McNAB
Mother: Anne MAILE
Birth Place: Ballarat East, Victoria
Year: 1854
#6504
So you might find Daniel#1 buried at Ballaarat. Daniel#2 was a McNAB, so the only one I can't see is Marjorie. Have you found her?
John McNAB - deaths up to 1900. Do you have any idea who his parents were?
3 infants
1 born 1812
1 born 1805
2 born 1818
1 born 1820
1 born 1824 (John George) Parents unknown
1 born 1859
1 born 1870
1 born 1876
Possibly more likely:
aged 54
Parents Charles McNAB/Christina McNAUGHTON
Died 1882, Dunolly
#11491
aged 56
Parents James McNAB/Jane McLARAN
Died 1884, Ballaarat
#3466
Debra :)
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Ok I have spent the morning revising my information and I now think Marjory Annie and Daniel are McNabs who took on Edward Browns name when Annie set up house with him - oh how confusing.
If it wasn't for Debra I wouldn't know anything ::) Ted
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Hi Ted,
You will find young Daniel buried at Ballaarat.
http://ballaratcemeteries.com.au/cemetery_database.html
Debra :)
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Thanks for that Debra, poor little Daniel - I wonder if anyone is with him might have to send an email. :D
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Hello everyone
I think I may be the person you have all been trying to contact. I am a great great granddaughter of Isabella Goudheur who married William Henry Day. I posted some research initially on Genforum in the hope that someone could help.
I have been looking for a death for both Edward Brown(e) and John McNab for a very long time. I was unable to find a marriage record in Alloa, Clackmannan for John McNab to Anne Brown. They had several children in Scotland before coming out to Australia.
I truly believe that Anne was never married to Edward Browne however I have a funny feeling that John McNab may have took off and left Annie. I also think that Edward might also have taken off. I also was given a death date of 1898 by relatives in WA but cannot find him in the victorian idexes and have also checked all of the inquests for that time. Of course this can't be proven until we locate all the death certificates which might never happen. She then married Henry Goedheer and then he took off and married Catherine Marie Jones. I wonder what Annie must have been like to live with! There are death notices for Annie in the Bendigo Advertiser and I have found a death notice for John Brown (Isabella's brother) in the Melbourne Argus, John died on the 13th february 1946. However it didn't say where.
As to Alexander Maule, Annie's father, he died in Alloa in a brewery accident. He went into a room that was very hot with steam and was scalded. He died a couple of days later. This came from a newspaper report of the time.
I have been given some early photographs, they are not named but they came from a Day family collection. One I am sure is Annie and (going by the dating info) I think Henry Goudheur. It looks like a wedding photo. Another is an early photo and I think it might be John McNab with young Daniel aged about 2-3. It is really too early to be anyone else.
Look forward to hearing what everyone else has to say.
regards
Tania Shalders
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Dear Tania,
I have only just found your post I hope you are still recieving messages from here. Another relative has been in touch with me recently an it would be good to compare notes.
Cheers Ted
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Hi Ted, great to hear back from someone at last. Isabella Goudheur (Browne) was my great great grandmother. She married William Henry Day at Whroo on June 6, 1878. At that stage Henry Goudheur was listed as her father but her real father was Edward Brown (e). Really not sure about the (e). Isabella was born at Talbot on 1 March 1860 but her birth does not appear to have been registered, possibly as Annie & Edward were not married.
I have rechecked the shipping too, the ships name was "Bourneuf" not Bourneup. Obviously whoever was transcribing got confused with the curly end of the writing.
Look forward to sharing notes. Cheers Tania
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Also forgot to say that I have documentation and newspaper reports, shipping lists, obituaries etc. Am happy to share but am unsure how to share email addresses. I am on Facebook though so you could request through that I guess???
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hello again, after reading through all the posts I though I would put this up to clarify a few things:
John McNab born abt 1825 married approx Dec 1847 Alva, Stirlingshire, Scotland
Annie Maule born 19 Nov 1826 Clackmannan, Scotland.
(Annie was a daughter of Alexander Maule & Margaret Hall).
Annie & John's children
1. Robert McNab born abt 1847 Menttier, Clackmannan, Scotland
2. Daniel McNab born abt 1849, Clackmannan, died 7 July 1854 Ballarat (Diahorrea), buried 9 Jul 1854 Ballarat (I have certificate).
3. Margaret McNab born & died Clackmannan 1851
4. Marjory May McNab (aka Marion May Brown) born 7 Dec 1852 Geelong, Victoria, died 9 July 1945 Mt Lawley, Western Australia. Buried 11 Jul 1945 Karrakatta Cemetery, Western Australia (Perth)
m. William Anderson 24 April 1872 Bendigo.
5. Annie McNab born 14 Aug 1854 Ballarat (I have cert), died 23 Mar 1914 Kew, Victoria, buried 23 Mar 1914 Boroondara Cemetery, Victoria. Married Johann Bohling 11 Oct 1873 Sandhurst (Bendigo)
6. Daniel McNab born 26 Aug 1856 Magpie, Victoria, died 15 June 1875 Graytown, Victoria
Children with Edward Brown (e)
7. John James Brown born 3 June 1858 Ballarat (I have cert), died March 1946 Albury, New South Wales m Charlotte Elizabeth Stevenson 18 July 1881 Sandhurst (Bendigo)
8. Isabella Brown (later took Goudheur surname) born 1 Mar 1860 Talbot, Victoria, died 10 Sep 1946 (I have cert) Balwyn Victoria. Married William Henry Day 6 June 1878 at Whroo.
9. Alexander Brown (nothing known except that he was still alive when Annie died in 1908).
Annie married Henry Goudheur (Geodheer) on 13 Jul 1871 at Graytown Victoria (I have cert).
Henry then married Catherine Marie Jones in 1883 and had three children to her:
Harry Leo Goedheer
Irene Mary Goedheer 1887-1924
Mary Lucretia Flor Goedheer -1889
Have heaps of further detail if you are interested
cheers Tania
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Always interested in everything about this family Tania.
I have to go out for a while. I will be back here in about an hour.
Cheers, Ted
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Hi Tania
My wife is the relative Tedscout mentioned. She is a descendant of John James Brown and agrees with most of your information and has gathered further information.
John McNab according to 1851 Scottish Census for Tullibody, Clackmannshire (Anc.. records) he was 26, therefore putting his birth around 1825, and was born in Doune, Perthshire.
I will PM you and Tedscout.
cheers
Stuart
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Hi All
Hopefully everyone is still monitoring this thread?
I am a great great grandson of Isabella Goudheur and William Henry Day via their son Alexander George Day.
If anyone can send me source documents I would really appreciate it. Trying to find out about Annie Maules life, marriages and children is equally fascinating as it is frustrating.
I have both marriage certificates for Henry Goudheer plus the marriage certificate and death certificate for William Henry and Isabella Day plus the marriage info for Alexander and Ruby Irene Spence. I also have Jane Day (Lewis) - mother of William Henry death cert.
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I corresponded with William Day who was a son of Alexander and Ruby Day. (I am descended through Daniel Edward Day, son of Isabella and William Henry). He wrote his autobiography, I assume you have a copy, if not let me know. I have Annie Maule's death certificate and births and deaths of children certificates from her first marriage to John McNab. I am happy to exchange info and have some photos as well, one, I believe is Annie Maule m Henry Goedheer. Also have one of Isabella Day nee Goudheur, the only one I have ever seen.
Cheers Tania Shalders
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Just a quick update on this for anyone reading it in future
DNA gave me links to at least 7 children who were the descendants of John Brown and Isabella McMahon. I found Edward Browns death on 18 August 1886 in Daylesford, Victoria, Australia. His parents are named as John Brown and Isabella McMahon. Also living in Daylesford was Edwards two sisters Ellen Brown and Selina Brown. Edward married Mary Ann Carrick on 18 May 1864 in a Private House, Daylesford, Victoria, Australia.
If Edward fathered Alexander Brown with Annie then he did so while he was married to Mary Ann Carrick.
I had one of Edwards and Mary Anns descendants DNA test and linked the families plus further links to the other children of John and Isabella Brown.
I have Edwards siblings marriages and deaths in Australia plus the records available in Ireland, USA, Canada and England for the other families.
Still no sign of John McNab. I think his father was Robert McNab based on Scottish naming traditions but haven't found the correct family to put him into.
Still no sign of Alexander Brown after 1908. Too many Alexander Browns to choose from.
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Also I believe Alexander Maules wife Margaret Hall died 22 January 1850 although this is probably her burial date. Whats not helpful is her death certificate says Margaret Hall, daughter of Alexander Maule.
We know its not Alexanders daughter Margaret Maule because Margaret married Francis Maule (possibly a distant cousin) 2 May 1851 then emigrated to Victoria, Australia in 1855 where she gave birth to another of her children on 29 Mar 1855 at Immigration Hospital, Portland, Victoria, Australia. Her death certificate names her father as Alexander Maule and mother as Margaret.
Margaret dies 26 Jan 1882 in Ballarat, Victoria, Australia and is buried in the Ballarat Cemetery.
Alexander Maule remarried to Elizabeth Simpson on 2 May 1851 in Alloa, Clackmannanshire, Scotland.