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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Topic started by: shazzafitz on Saturday 16 October 10 09:26 BST (UK)
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Isaac Shapiro from Lithuania married in the Uk between 1929-1945. On his honeymoon night he went to get his new bride a glass of champagne in the bathtub, when he got there she had drowned. I am trying to find if anyone out there has heard this story and if so I am looking for his wifes name and their marriage certificate and the wifes death certificate. Soon after this incident Isaac Shapiro left the Uk and went to South Africa. Please if anyone can help I appreciate it.
See also this thread:
www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,489549.msg3473212.html#msg3473212
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This story is uncannily familiar as I am sure there was a film or a TV programme made about this or a similar story. ;)
I will do some digging and see what I can come up with!
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Thank you I will be looking forward to hearing from you.
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Searching for Isaac Shapiro marriage in www.freebmd.org.uk gives several possibilities.
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Ah I think that I am maybe confusing it with this story! ??? Sorry ::)
http://www.historybytheyard.co.uk/brides_in_bath.htm
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Hi Shazzafitz
It would help if you could narrow down the dates a bit - do you have him arriving in South Africa? Do you have any idea of his date of birth?
There are not many marriages for this name in the period but we can't know which one is correct!
Kind regards, Arranroots ;)
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Hello
I have looked on Free BMD - http://www.freebmd.org.uk/cgi/search.pl
for marriages of Isaac Shapiro and then tried to check the deaths for any of the wives but nothing is showing. You could try it yourself as a means of elimination.
Did Isaac marry as a widower? Do you know anything else about him?
regards
heywood
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No it was his first marriage. He would have been very young when he married. I wander coming at such a young age from Lithuania would it have been a possibility that he changed his name at some stage. I see there are many variations of the name Shapiro. All I know he was born on 20th December 1914 in Lithuania. He must have been a UK citizen as when he left to Uk to South Africa he travelled on a British Passport. Is there a way to get information about his passport.
Thank you for your help.
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Sorry- I meant did he describe himself as a widower when he married in South Africa?
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There is a naturalisation record on the National Archives site - but it is closed for 100 years, so 16 to go!! Probably not yours as he is Polish and has a daughter.
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/catalogue/displaycataloguedetails.asp?CATID=5111823&CATLN=6&accessmethod=5
When did he travel to SA? You say shortly after the death, so that would narrow down the dates a lot!
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There is a naturalisation record on the National Archives site - but it is closed for 100 years, so 16 to go!! Probably not yours as he is Polish and has a daughter.
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/catalogue/displaycataloguedetails.asp?CATID=5111823&CATLN=6&accessmethod=5
When did he travel to SA? You say shortly after the death, so that would narrow down the dates a lot!
Is that the one from 1926 - it also seems to mention a child which wouldn't be the case if he was born 1914 :-\
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Yes - as I say, not likely to be the right one if the birth date is correct, but given that the OP seems to have so few details I thought I would mention it. Also the fact that seems to be the only one!
:)
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Yes - there was one in Glasgow but that was 1913 :-\
Shazzafitz
Is this a family story? As has been said- when did he arrive in SA - that may help but it is looking very difficult. Had he changed his name then that is even more difficult.
What was his occupation on his passport?
I can't think now .. but did passports indicate which office they were issued at- in terms of regions of UK?
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I dont know when he arrived in south africa but he married my mother Lilly Segill in 1950 in Johanneburg. He was noted as a widower when he married my mother in 1950.
That is all the information I have as I only found out a few months back that he died 29 years ago. I so desperately want to find out who he was and where he came from.
best wishes
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A search of passenger lists to South Africa (Find my past) brings up the following male passengers:
SHAPERA I. born 1905 departs Southampton to Cape 1929
SHAPIRO (no initial) born 1894 departs Southampton to Cape 1929
Rafter
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This is where your post on the SA board should come in handy - we need help from some experts on things like the contents of death certs in SA and naturalisation records - maybe he told more on the latter? Also the shipping records - to see whether he travelled alone. Also his occupation might help pin him down in the UK.
I have added a link to this thread on the South Africa thread.
:)
p.s. red message - Rafter just posted some likely shipping records!
(incidentally - why did you give 1929 as the earliest date for the marriage?)
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I dont know when he arrived in south africa but he married my mother Lilly Segill in 1950 in Johanneburg. He was noted as a widower when he married my mother in 1950.
That is all the information I have as I only found out a few months back that he died 29 years ago. I so desperately want to find out who he was and where he came from.
best wishes
I'm sorry it's all questions.
If this is all the info you have where does the story come from re the bride's death -- as that is what is guiding our searches.
Could his first marriage have been first in SA?
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Hello Arronroots Isaac Shapiro was my father and before he died he told me the story of his Uk bride. On my mothers death certificate it states he was a widower when he married her. I only found out a few months back that my father died in 1981 all alone in Australia. I didnt know him all that well and am trying to find out who he was and as much as I can about his life. His first marriage was definitely in the UK. I remember as a child he travelled on a British Passport so he must have been a british citizen. Is there a way to get information about his citizenship in the Uk and passport. info.
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Hi there,
I am in NSW Australia ....
There are restrictions on obtaining dcs in various states .... usually 30 year closed .... Of course there are newspaper indexes for death, funeral notices ... one online index is http://www.ryersonindex.org/
There's a 1981 notice indexed at that link ....Abraham SHAPIRO death 19 Jan 1981, late of Maroubra (a suburb of Sydney). The notice appeared in the SMH newspaper on 20 Jan 1981. That newspaper notice may be one of several for that chap.... there may be a separate notice for the funeral service, this could be several days later in January. There may be a probate/administration notice ... that could be several months after.
The ryerson index is prepared by volunteers, and there is a look up facility that the volunteers conduct, and is listed on their website. I realise that "Abraham" is not "Isaac", but these two names are familiar to many ;) and often go hand in hand.
If you think there may be a connection between Abraham Shapiro death 10 Jan 1981 and Shazzafitz's post "my father died in 1981 all alone in Australia", perhaps there's RChatters on the Aussie Board who can help with a visit to one of the major libraries in the various state capitals.
In the meantime, I will see if I can find any likely online sightings of an Isaac Shapiro in Australia post WWII ...
Cheers, JM
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Forgot ...
Australian Passports did not "exist" until 1949 ... This was because "Australian" citizenship did not come into effect until then ... Before 1949 Australians were "British Subjects", so they travelled on British Passports... Some still do... Was a British Passport valid for ten years before it needed renewing ..
JM
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Hi there,
The National Archives of Australia have an on-going project to index passenger arrivals in 20th Century.
http://recordsearch.naa.gov.au/scripts/PassengerSearch.asp
I did not find Isaac Shapiro arrival, but the index is not complete. I did find one chap named Abraham who arrived
23 Nov 1946, on ship Zonnewijk ex Rotterdam.
Cheers, JM
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Submitted tree on Ancestry
Isaac Shapiro 20 Dec 1914 Lithuania - 3 June 1981 Sydney Australia.
Lilly Segill 25 Feb 1929 Johannesburg- 29 Aug 1975 Johannesburg
Teddles.
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Hi
I looked for Isaac Shapiros who married between 1919 and 1944 and found eight. I then checked the brides' forenames and looked for a death of xx Shapiro in the same quarter or a closely following quarter as the wedding. I could find two:
Isaac Shapiro married Annie Netz in Q3 1927 in Manchester North: an Annie Shapiro, age 44, died in Q3 1927 in Holborn.
Isaac Shapiro married Rose Danin in Q2 1929 in Greenwich: a Rose Shapiro, age 28, died in Q1 1930 in Thanet.
I cannot see anything in the Times or Guardian relating to this unlucky death.
All the best
Gobo
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In 1924 there was a SHAPIRO Issac, inbound Southampton on a vessel Arundel Castle from Capetown. SA he was in company with 2 females Elizabeth 18 yrs.and Sophie 39yrs. of the same name.
They were bound for the Savoy Hotel London!
Issac is listed as a Director.
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On his honeymoon night he went to get his new bride a glass of champagne in the bathtub, when he got there she had drowned.
Yikes, shades of George Joseph Smith:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Joseph_Smith
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Can I just reassure the OP that we aren't accusing her father of any impropriety!
:o
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Hi there,
Re Isaac Shapiro and the submitted tree showing 3 June 1981, Sydney Australia ...
There are two main daily newspapers in Sydney, and here is a link to the Archives for the Sydney Morning Herald.
http://archives.smh.com.au/index.php The other newspaper is The Daily Telegraph, and its archive service seems to date from c 1984 ...
The following paragraphs comes from the Welcome Page at the SMH archives link :
Search every edition of The Sydney Morning Herald and The Sun-Herald between 1955-1995 in our unique online archive. All articles, captions and advertisements are fully keyword searchable and full-text results are returned in an exact digital reproduction of the printed pages as they were originally published. Search birth, death and marriage notices. Explore Australia's history through the big stories of the day.
The SMH archives contains 820,000 pages in almost 13,000 issues spanning January 1st, 1955 to February 2nd, 1995. The contents of all issues are fully text searchable and reflect the full context and layout of each page as it was originally published.
Browse and search the 1955-1995 archive for FREE - although you must purchase a subscription to view the articles in full.
Fingers crossed, ($15 Au for a 24 hour subscription to the SMH archives ;) )
Cheers JM
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I am still trying to research my father. I have since found out that his first wife's name was janie Fogelman. Isaac was born anywhere between 1907 and 1914 in Moletai Lithuania.
Posting this new reply on behalf of new member Sharon Shapiro :)
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A google for Janie Fogelman brings up several pages:
http://blankgenealogy.com/getperson.php?personID=I17651&tree=Blank1
http://blankgenealogy.com/familygroup.php?familyID=F12640&tree=Blank1
[has photo of Isaac]
http://www.geni.com/people/Janie-Shapiro/6000000008053991460
[states Isaac & Janie married 1945 England, but I cannot find a marriage on freebmd.]
These may of course be known to Sharon. I wonder what was Sharon's source for Janie's name? These pages state Janie born 1912 ?where, married 1945 England & died 1949 Johannesburg, SA.
Long honeymoon ;D
Josey
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Hi Sharon Shapiro
The moderators know you are watching this topic as you have used the 'report to moderator' button again and sent us 2 further messages which only the moderators can see.
Please post information openly on the topic, that way more people will be able to help you.
Dawn
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Hi Sharon,
To reply just click on the blue "reply" button at the bottom of this thread :)
Sarah
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I am still trying to research my father. Isaac was born anywhere between 1907 and 1914 in Moletai Lithuania. I have since found out that his first wife's name was Janie Shapiro (born) Fogelman 1912 in Poland. Janie died March 1949 age 37 in Johannesburg South Africa at the Johannesburg General Hospital. They were married in 1944 (source: Janies death certificate) which I have. In 1950 Isaac married my mother Lily Segill (born Segal) in Johannesburg. I just cannot find my fathers family. Maybe someone can help.
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Have you tried contacting the owners of the website I gave the link to in reply 28? They seem to have names for Isaac's parents & you can then verify [or not] their research.
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All those links are my sites. I have information on david blanck's site and have a genie tree and a my heritage.com tree
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Hi there,
Have you eliminated Izaak Lejba SZAPIRO born 1914, Wilno, Poland, from your enquiries? The National Archives of Australia has a file, Access status OPEN on him 1945-1954, and mentions Maroubra Bay NSW. http://www.naa.gov.au/collection/search/index.aspx I mention Maroubra Bay as that is near to Randwick, (both are suburbs of Sydney) and the NSW BDM online has the registration of the death of Isaac Shapiro as died aged 68 at Randwick (17006/1981)
http://www.naa.gov.au/collection/search/index.aspx (Search as a guest). You may need to either visit the NAA's Canberra Archives, or pay a fee to have these records digitised.
Cheers, JM
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Have you eliminated Izaak Lejba SZAPIRO born 1914, Wilno, Poland, from your enquiries? The National Archives of Australia has a file, Access status OPEN on him 1945-1954...
Not him JM ;)
The above Izaak Lejba SZAPIRO [aka SHAPRIO Louis], born 23 October 1914 Wilno, POLAND. Travelled per STRATHMORE arriving in Sydney on 16 May 1939. Date of Naturalisation - 30 August 1945; Place of Residence - Maroubra Bay, NSW; - [Married] [Wife] SHAPIRO, Sophie.
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This would be him :D
Migration case file 1978 - Australian Embassy, South Africa [Pretoria] - Migration Office:
SHAPIRO Isaac born 1912 - South African
Series no: A7632
Control symbol: 1978/1056
Item barcode: 32380693
You will need to apply for access to his file:
http://recordsearch.naa.gov.au/SearchNRetrieve/Interface/RequestNotAvailable.aspx?Barcode=32380693
http://www.naa.gov.au/collection/search/index.aspx
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Do you have a copy of his 1981 NSW death certificate?
He is buried at Rookwood Jewish Cemetery - details & photos of his grave are available here:
http://www.rookwoodjewishcemetery.com.au/detail.php?id=13442
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I only found out a few months back that my father died in 1981 all alone in Australia.
I didnt know him all that well and am trying to find out who he was and as much as I can about his life.
The way I read the above I thought you were located in South Africa.
But you had already emigrated to Australia before your father died & were living in NSW.
Your immigration file is also available if you apply for access ;)
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Hi, That is not my dad. Izaak Lejba SZAPIRO [aka SHAPRIO Louis].
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I have the death certificate of my dad, but all the information seems incorrect. I was not there when my father died and for some unknown reason my sister was contacted in johannesburg and gave those details. My father had a suitcase with all his personal papers, e.g. passport/s etc and photo albums. wish I could get copy of his passport. It was six months after my dad died I was told of his death. On the death certificate it says he was survived by two daughters shirley and sharon. The children are Sharon and Cynthia. And on the grave it said he was the son of Abraham, but his father was Shraga. Everything is so mixed up. I will have to find the death certificate and then will send it to you.
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This would be him :D
Migration case file 1978 - Australian Embassy, South Africa [Pretoria] - Migration Office:
SHAPIRO Isaac born 1912 - South African
Series no: A7632
Control symbol: 1978/1056
Item barcode: 32380693
You will need to apply for access to his file:
http://recordsearch.naa.gov.au/SearchNRetrieve/Interface/RequestNotAvailable.aspx?Barcode=32380693
http://www.naa.gov.au/collection/search/index.aspx
Well found Merlin :)
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Yes thank you this is him.
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I have applied for the Migration case file 1978 for Isaac Shapiro. This source proves he was born in 1912 in Lithuania. One step forward.
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I would like to find out about my fathers wives. He married in 1944 a Janie Fogelman and she died at the johannesburg general hospital in 1949. She was 37 year old. Not sure if he married Janie in south africa or england. In 1950 he married my mother lilly Segill (born Segal). in johannesburg. If my father isaack Shapiro was born in 1912 in Lithuania, would he have had another wife before Janie. or any other children.Two children come up of the geni website Sharona and Gila. Never heard of them. I know he and Janie did not have any children. I have Janie's death certificate. Can someone please help.
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Hi there,
On Janie’s 1949 death cert it gives the then current details of her 3 brothers and 1 sister. (their names and addresses with the note "All of Johannesburg"). Have you followed up on those clues? Perhaps they or their descendants may know of your father’s life in South Africa, or of any previous marriage/s for him.
ADD,
It also mentions that Janie's Nationality was Poland, "Union National by naturalization of husband", so perhaps you could follow up re Isaack's naturalization papers.
ADD
One of the brothers shared the same address as Janie and Isaack.
Cheers, JM
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http://www.geni.com/people/Janie-Shapiro/6000000008053991460 At that submitted tree, the tree owner has Janie as marrying in England at age 33, in 1945. They mention these two daughters. Perhaps you should try to contact that tree owner and ask for their source of that info.
http://blankgenealogy.com/getperson.php?personID=I17651&tree=Blank1 At that submitted tree, the tree owner as Isaac Shapiro's date of birth as 20 Dec 1914, and his first wife as Janie Fogelman. Perhaps you should try to contact that tree owner and ask for their source of that info.
Cheers, JM
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I did point out those sites in reply #28 ;) & suggested Sharon contact the tree owners. In replies #32 & #33 Sharon said they were HER sites ???
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Oh deary me,
I guess then that leaves the options of Sharon following up with the Fogelman families in RSA as per the 1949 dc. and the National Archives of Australia file that has not yet been digitised for her Dad.
Cheers, JM
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Hi, on the genie website I have a tree Sharon Shlomit Fitzgerald b. Shapiro Tree http://www.geni.com/share?t=6000000023514910463 and on myHeritage.com Shapiro web site: shazzashapiro.myheritage.com - I also have information on david blank's website. http://www.geni.com/people/Janie-Shapiro/6000000008053991460 At that submitted tree, the tree owner (Daniella thompson) has Janie as marrying in England at age 33, in 1945. Nothing is known about this person. The Jaffe/Yaffe family tree compiled by the late Zvi Yaffe of Kibbutz Ginegar Shows her husband, Isaac Shapiro, with two daughters, Sharona and Gila. it’s also possible that they are Isaac’s living daughters from an earlier or later wife. Janie didn't have any children according to her death certificate.
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Hi,
According to Janie Fogelman's (shapiro) death certificate the brother that lived at the same address as Janie and Isaac was Bennie Fogelman, he had a wife Niuta and a son Mervyn (could be alive) got this information on the NAARS website.
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" My name is Sharon shapiro and I was born in Johannesburg South Africa. I applied ten years ago to the department of home affairs in Pretoria for my birth certificate, I live now in Australia and the South African embassy in Canberra Australia applied twice "
Posted on behalf of Sharon who had clicked on the "report to moderator" button instead of the reply button. The blue reply button is at the very end of the last reply Sharton :)
Regards
Sarah
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I have been trying to find out information about my dad for years. This information I got recently the story of the Shapiro’s escape, their abuse, the hardships they had to endure because they had to travel south through Germany (to Bremerhaven). All the ports north of Lithuania were frozen. In Bremerhaven they got boat to the Port of Tilbury, located on the River Thames in Essex, England. There they boarded the “Durham Castle” to South Africa. It was at that point that several members of the family were separated, some going to the USA and other parts of the world.
I am looking for information on the shapers who boarded the durham castle their names and where they went. Any other info as well.