RootsChat.Com
General => The Common Room => Topic started by: Stumped! on Friday 22 October 10 22:41 BST (UK)
-
I have recently begun researching my 3x great grandfather, Samuel Fisher.
I have found him on the 1841 census in London where his occupation is given as artist. (HO107 656/6 31 16).
When his son married in 1859 he stated that his father was deceased and had been an engraver.
If I Google "Engravings by Samuel Fisher" I come up with numerous hits of his work stating that he was flourishing as an engraver between 1830 and 1851 or '55. having studied at J V Barber's academy in Birmingham before moving to London.
Does anybody know whether there are any directories of early 19th century engravers or where I should next go to try and establish the range of his work?
Peter
-
If you will PM me with your email address I will scan two of his engravings and email them to you. I have many thousands of engravings but only 2 by S. Fisher.
-
This is the URL for another:
http://www.tate.org.uk/servlet/ViewWork?cgroupid=999999988&workid=19833
-
Hack
Many thanks for the replies.
PM sent.
Peter
-
Hack
Many thanks for the scans.
They are much appreciated.
Peter
-
His engraving was of a very high quality so it was a pleasure.
-
This is the URL for another:
http://www.tate.org.uk/servlet/ViewWork?cgroupid=999999988&workid=19833
The Royal Academy have very kindly sent me a scan of this image of Coventry.
Peter
-
That was very obliging of them. :)
-
Hi
A possible for Samuel's death
Highgate Cemetery St Pancras 8th March 1851
Samuel Fisher aged 45 Pickford Street City Road
Deaths Mar 1851 FISHER Samuel S Lukes 2 247
Prerogative Court of Canterbury will
Will of Samuel Fisher, Gentleman of Pickard Street City Road , Middlesex 18 March 1851 PROB 11/2128
Regards
Valda
-
Valda
Many thanks for that information.
I have yet to send for a death certificate for him as there seem to be a number of possibilities in 1851.
I would agree that the March entry seems to be the most likely (I certainly cannot find either him or his wife on the 1851 census).
Peter
-
Hi
The Prerogative Court of Canterbury will should prove it one way or the other.
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/documentsonline/power-search.asp?searchType=powersearch
Regards
Valda
-
In the antique prints trade it is widely accepted that Samuel Fisher was still alive until at least 1855.
I suggest you do not accept the 1851 death.
-
Hack
Yes I had noticed that, but all of the dates using 1855 seem to be preceded with "fl" which I understand stood for "flourishing".
Could it be that his work continued to be used after his death?
In the meantime, thanks to the link that Valda supplied I have invested £3.50 with docs online and downloaded the will, which runs to quite a number of pages.
I'll (try and) read it before I go any further.
Peter
-
I am almost certain that this is his will!
Samuel and Maria had four children: Caroline Maria, Frederick Samuel, Elizabeth Clara and Amelia.
All of those names appear in the document.
Peter
-
Hi
If he died in 1855 these are the three possibilities
Deaths Jun 1855
Fisher Samuel Dudley 6c 70
Deaths Sep 1855
Fisher Samuel Dudley 6c 16
Fisher Samuel Stockport 8a 55
Other than the Bridgman Art Library which gives his dates 1806-1851 the other dates on the internet are 1802-1855
The 1841 census would seem to indicate the 1806 birthdate is the nearer birthdate.
1841 HO107/665/6 fol 31 p 16
Barford Terrace Finsbury St Mary Islington Middlesex
Samuel Fisher 33 artist not born in county (clearly 33)
Maria 30 do
Caroline 10 born in county
Frederick 6 do
Clara 4 do
Amelia 3 do
Mary Savill 20 F.S not born in county
The family is not together on the 1851 census.
The two younger daughters are in Staffordshire
1851 census HO107 2025 folio 354
Heath Turnpike Road West Bromwich
Clara Fisher 14 Pupil London Middlesex
Amelia Fisher 13 Pupil London Middlesex
The oldest daughter
1851 census HO107 1694 folio 151
Boyn Hill Bray Berkshire
Caroline M Fisher 20 Governess Islington
Carolione Maria's marriage 21st April 1855 St Andrew's church Islington does state her father was deceased but that doesn't rule it out. One of the witnesses to the marriage was Edward Goodyear.
Frederick Samuel the son married as a stationer in Hoxton in 1859 so this looks to be him on the 1851 census
1851 census HO107 535 folio 617
75 Great Charles Street Hoxton Shoreditch
Frederick Fisher 16 Visitor Apprentice Stationer Not Known
House of Edward Goodyear 50 Unmarried Journeyman Japanner born Birmingham
No sign of either parent on this census. The will indicates Samuel did die in 1851 before the 1851 census.
Regards
Valda
-
Valda
Again, many thanks. It's going to take me some time to read this will!
I would agree with all of the census recrds you have found.
I've found most of the family on later censuses, as well.
Peter
-
That looks definite enough to confute the idea that he was still active in 1855. I wonder if Maria, his wife, was not a Goodyear?
-
Hack
Maria was a Dutton.
I have the birth certificate of their youngest child, Amelia, who was born on the 21st March, 1838, the others having been born prior to civil registration.
I also have a very poor copy of the marriage entry which I purchased from Birmingham archives.
Peter
-
That looks definite enough to confute the idea that he was still active in 1855. I wonder if Maria, his wife, was not a Goodyear?
Hack..
Edward Goodyear was one of the executors mentioned in the will.
I should have seen it earlier..it's on the first page ???
Peter
-
Hi
Edward Goodyear's will details
Probate was 24th September 1885 at the Principal Registry. He died 10th August 1885. His executor was Elizabeth Steward spinster.
This is a possibility for his baptism
EDWARD GOODYEAR
Birth: 09 OCT 1799 Bond Street Baptist, Birmingham, Warwick
Father: URIAH GOODYEAR
Mother: LUCY
URIAH GOODYEAR
LUCY BLAKEMORE
Marriage: 25 DEC 1795 Saint Phillips, Birmingham, Warwick
I can't see a family connection if there was one from this information.
Regards
Valda
-
Valda
No, I can't see a connection, either.
Another executor was an Edward Banks, a button maker from Birmingham in the County of Warrick (?).
From what I can read of this will (print-through is making it difficult) it seems that Samuel had property in Birmingham as well as in London.
Peter
-
I have found it impossible to read this will despite messing about with photoshop for ages.
I emailed the National Archives and received a reply within 15 minutes.
They agree that it's pretty ropey and will re-scan it and let me know when it's ready. How's that for service?
Peter
-
Hi
The PCC wills in PROB11 are all copies of the originals copied into ledgers by the clerks of the PCC (in secretarial handwriting). The ledgers have all been microfilmed so can be produced electronically by The National Archives (the online index is for PCC wills and does not include administrations). The original wills are held by TNA in class PROB 10.
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/records/research-guides/wills-and-probate-records.htm
Regards
Valda
-
Thanks for that, Valda.
I can see another entry in the archives relating to the death in Poplar in 1851 of someone of that name (reference MJ/SPC/E/4443) but I seem to go round in circles trying to access it ::)
Peter
-
Hi
That isn't a National Archives reference. Googling tells me it is from Access to Archives which is a website hosted by The National Archives where other archives put indexes for some of their records (when they had lottery money to do so which has since ceased)
The index for the record
All Saints, Poplar: Samuel Fisher: Sudden death in a fit MJ/SPC/E/4443 [n.d.]
which is indexed from
Middlesex Sessions of the Peace: Court in Session [MJ/SPC/E/1300 - MJ/SPC/E/4600]
Coroners' papers: Eastern district MJ/SPC/E [n.d.]
and which archive holds the actual records
Held by London Metropolitan Archives
You must now either visit the LMA to view the actual record or contact the LMA for a quote from them to copy and send the record to you.
Regards
Valda
-
Valda
Again... thank you for the information.
I'll get in touch with them after the holiday and see what transpires.
Peter
-
Hi
My concern would be your Samuel Fisher didn't live or die in Poplar
Deaths Mar 1851 FISHER Samuel S Lukes 2 247
It might be worth obtaining a copy of his death certificate first to see what he did die of and whether there was a Coroner's inquest
and the Middlesex inquests are all undated from a series that has a very wide time frame
Middlesex Sessions of the Peace, c 1350-1889
The LMA information leaflet on Coroner's records
http://217.154.230.218/NR/rdonlyres/B4AD8012-54EA-4A38-BD3D-273ABB331498/0/41CORONERSRECORDSFORLONDONANDMIDDLESEX.pdf
Regards
Valda
-
Valda
You are hopefully correct in thinKing that this is not "my" Samuel. I get very confused with the districts in London.
There used to be a map online (Stanford's Map Of London Showing The Boundaries Of Parishes, Ecclesiastical Districts, And Poor Law Divisions 1877) but it has been taken down.
I will be sending for his death certificate in the New Year.. there are so many certificates that I need (want?).
Merry Christmas
Peter
-
Hi Peter
Try this map
http://maps.familysearch.org/
It covers all English counties. The Google map of 1851. An essential favourite to bookmark.
Merry Christmas
Valda
-
Valda
That's brilliant!!!!
Well and truly bookmarked.
Peter
-
My concern would be your Samuel Fisher didn't live or die in Poplar
Valda
You were quite right!
I have had a reply from the LMA.
The inquest was held in 1830
Peter
-
Hi Peter
In London unless it is a quite distinctive name there will always be others unrelated with the same or similar names, since the population of the city was so large.
Regards
Valda
-
I have now received Samuel's death certificate. (ordered 17/1, received today).
He died on the 1st of March, 1851 age 45. Definitely the correct person. Address: 14 Pickard Street; Occupation: artist; Informant: F.S Fisher (his son).
Peter
-
Yesterday I received a re-scanned copy of Samuel's will.
It's certainly easier to read than their first attempt, but I think I will be monopolizing the deciphering board in the near future. :)
Peter
-
Hi Peter
If it helps The National Archives supplies 'A practical online tutorial Palaeography: reading old handwriting 1500 - 1800'
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/palaeography/default.htm
Some of this style of handwriting would still be in evidence when the PCC clerks copied the wills into the ledgers in the first half of the C19th.
Regards
Valda
-
Yesterday I received a re-scanned copy of Samuel's will.
It's certainly easier to read than their first attempt, but I think I will be monopolizing the deciphering board in the near future. :)
Peter
Peter
I had a look at the original part scan. It is only the fact that it is scan of a scan that is the problem. I could read a clean copy of that as easily as I can read this.
When you rescan the document scan it as a Grayscale, not a line image, if you have that facility on your scanner.
-
Valda
Thank you for the link. I will certainly read the tutorial before imposing myself on the deciphering board.
Hack
What they have sent me is a pdf of the will (just over 4 pages). I haven't done any scanning on it. I converted it to a jpg using pdfxvwer so that I could post that small part.
Peter
-
Hello, I found this post when I was doing research on some engravings that were donated to our local auction in Canada. There is one S Fisher engravings in our auction donated through an estate sale (the deceased were world travellers so we believe they collected them in their travels). There are markings on the back confirming they are old. This local auction is fundraising for the Duncan curling club and the Rotary Club of Duncan of which I am a member of both and part of the organizing team. Happy to work with you to get the item shipped if you are successful in bidding. the auction website is
https://auctria.events/RotaryGarageSaleCurlingClubFundraiser (https://auctria.events/RotaryGarageSaleCurlingClubFundraiser) I hope you get this post before the auction ends of May 22nd. Cheers Item number is 41
-
Samuel Fisher was a very skilful engraver of steel plates whose career extended from the early 1830's up to about 1852. He died in 1855. He was exceptional at translating the mood that artists had put into their work and notably the half-dozen of Turner's works that he engraved.
Like most of his profession he was a competent artist himself and many of his engravings are entirely his own composition.
I have some thousands of old engravings as I used to deal in old maps and prints and amongst them are several by this engraver.