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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Somerset => England => Somerset Lookup Requests => Topic started by: Carole in Dallas on Monday 25 October 10 06:05 BST (UK)
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First all...thanks so MUCH for helping me. IT is truly appreciated!!
Martha Withey (1809 to 1888...I think...) married Charles Barrow (1811 to 1868 I believe) I would like to verify these dates as well as Martha's parents. Charles Barrow's parents led back to the Magistrate of Wedmore. I think her mother may have been Elizabeth Bullock but I have no idea of any lineage or history of that line of Martha's. Was Charles a wine merchant...think I might have found something in the London Gazette that indicated he was.
Thanks again for all of your help. I am in Dallas and have been trying to research my English lines. My grandfather's mother, Elizabeth Barrow Wylde Haring died soon after he was born due to complications of the delivery. She was born in England and her parents were Elizabeth Barrow and Henry Ernest Wylde who moved to Rockland County New York in 1867. Elizabeth's brother, Charles Barrow, joined her in NY after his wife died....I surmise this to be true because a US census said he was a widow. Charles Barrow and his Sister Elizabeth Barrow Wylde were buried next to each other in Germonds Cemetery in New City, Rockland County, New York, USA. I feel such an affinity to my history in England.
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Hi
Elizabeth BARROW (who was to marry Henry Ernest WYLDE) - she was the daughter Charles BARROW Snr and Martha?
To avoid going over what you may already have - do you already have English Census records, in which:
1851 (Walton Surrey) & 1861 (Freyning, Essex) Charles BARROW Snr is aWine Merchant
1871 & 1881 Martha is a widow of Colveston Crescent, Hackney, London.
MARTHA - Probate
29 Mar 1888 - The Will & codicil of Martha BARROW, widow, formerly of Colveston Crescent, Dalston, Middlesex but lately of 64 Petherton Rd, Highbury New Park, Middlesex.
She died 24 Feb 1888 at 64 Petherton Road.
Her Will was proved in the Principal Registry London by her daughter, and sole Executrix, Frances Susan BARROW, spinster, of 64 Petherton Road.
Her Personal Estate was 76GBP.
Cheers
AMBLY
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I would love that information...how can I get a copy of those census records....but more important...how can I get a record of who Martha Withey's parents were?
YOU are so kind KIND kind to help me. Thanks all the way from the big state of Texas!!!
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PS....I do have the ship records of Henry Ernest Wylde and his wife Elizabeth Wylde coming to the US in 1867 with the children including my grandfather's mother.
I am still looking for the census record that shows that Elizabeth Barrow and Charles Barrow were children of Charles and Martha Barrow....on one census Charles Jr is shown living with his grandparents at the Manor in Wedmore with his grandfather, John Barrow the Magistrate....but the date of his age is incorrect. I was hoping to find the 1841 census showing elizabeth barrow....did find the 1841 census showing Charles with his grandparents...though his age is not correct....but would love to find where elizabeth barrow b 1836 was....her parents were charles and martha barrow.
DEEPEST appreciation is being sent your way.
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Hi ;D
In order to try determine who Martha was, need to first gather the information on her from known records.
1851: Bridge Street - Walton on Thames, Surrey
HO107 / Piece: 1593 / Folio: 43 / Page: 18
Head: Charles BARROW 39, Wine Merchant 52 Cole-----le, b Wendon, Somerset *
Wife: Martha BARROW 42, b Bath Somerset
Son: Charles BARROW 17, Clerk & Oil Merchant, b Wedmore, Somerset
Dau: Elizabeth BARROW 15?, unm, b Upper Clapton, Middlesex **
Dau: Charlotte Maria BARROW 7?, b Upper Clapton, Middlesex **
Dau: Ann BARROW 6?, b Upper Clapton, Middlesex **
Dau: Grace BARROW 3, b Wokingham, Berks(hire)
-----: Rebecca CARR 15, unm, House Servant, b Woodbury?, Berks(hire)
* Place of birth possibly meant to be Wembdon. His occupation appears to give what I think is an address of his Wine Merchant-ry - but there is a splodge through the word and can't make all of it out.
** The enumerator has made checking marks through the ages. Pretty certain Elizabeth is 15 and Charlotte is 7. Not very sure if Ann is 6 - but it has to be a single digit age between 4 and 8!!
However, 2 of their other children age 13 and 9 are at a school in Dorset in 1851 - so presume Elizabeth is over 13 & no longer at school, while Charlotte and Ann are under 9 and not yet shipped off to be 'finished'.
Cheers
AMBLY
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The two daughters in school 1851:
1851: West Borough - Village of Wimborne, Parish of Wimborne Minster, Dorset
HO107 / Piece: 1854 / Folio: 488 / Page: 73
Head: Sophia CLARKE 39, widow, Ladies School Mistress, b Manchester, Lancashire
and two of her young ladies, listed consecutively:
Pupil: Frances BARROW 13, 9, Scholar, b Clapton, Middlesex
Pupil: Fredericia BARROW 9, Scholar, b Clapton, Middlesex
Cheers
AMBLY
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http://homepages.gold.ac.uk/genuki/MDX/Hackney/index.html
Upper Clapton is one of the hamlets in Hackney, Middlesex
Messy writing - but this is them in 1841:
1841: Clapton Place - St John Hackney, Middlesex
HO107 / Piece 700 / Book: 11 / Folio: 15 / Page: 25
Charles BARROW 25, Wine Merchant - No
Martha BARROW 30 - No
Thomas BARROW 25, Ind(ependant) - No
Eliz BARROW 5 - Yes
Susan BARROW 3 - Yes
H? RICKARD? 20 (female), F.S. - No
(Susan - is Frances as per 1851; Susan was her middle name)
In the 1841 Census, ages for persons aged 15 years and over was supposed to be rounded down to the nearest 5 years (so someone age 29 for eg, should be rounded down to 25). Not all enumerators/understood followed this rule - which led for eg. to rounding by incorrect number of years or no rounding at all. In this family - it looks to me as if rounding has been correctly applied. (Children under 15 years, were supposed to have their exact age stated)
Cheers
AMBLY
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I think Martha's mother was Betty (Elizabeth) Phillips nee PICKWICK, daughter of Moses PICKWICK & Sarah SMITH:
married 1) George WITHEY 1792
married 2) Thomas BULLOCK 1814
As outlined here:
http://pickwickfamily.org/p6.htm#i168
How this 'think' is arrived at:
Snippets from a google book
http://www.rootschat.com/links/0a6n/
(I don't think the link will bring up the exact reference I found - but it is on page 222. Try googling in Google Books for "Martha Withey" or a combo of key words.....)
"...he died at Beckington on Dec 12th, 1834, see Gentlemans Magazine 1835, i 228, where he is styled 'nephew to E Pickwick, Esq, of Queens Square Bath', who was the above mentioned Eleazer. Eleazer and Aaron were therefore brothers....."
The 'he' who died 1834 appears to refer to Charles PICKWICK 1803-1834, (son of Aaron PICKWICK and Sarah), who married Harriet Sarah SAINSBURY. Aaron was the son of Moses PICKWICK & Sarah SMITH.
"...The Testator resided at 10 Queens Square, Bath. He mentions besides his two nephews, his wife Susannah, his sister Elizabeth BULLOCK, and her daughter Martha Withey (who, in the interval between the will and the codicil, became wife to Charles Barrow of Bath), his cousin Moses ...."
This appears to refer to Eleazor PICKWICK 1748-1837 (son of Moses PICKWICK & Sarah SMITH) whose wife was a Susannah COOMBS.
Martha appears to have married Charles around 1834-1835 going by the baptisms of their children and census records, so the interval mentioned must be around that time?
"......I noticed nothing in the will or the codicil, when I read them at Somerset House, to connect either the testator or his cousin Moses with the business of a coach proprietor. They are the prolix documents of a man bent on tying up his properties unto the third of fourth generation, but do not disclose the...."
Cheers
AMBLY
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Reading between the lines of the snippets, it seemed to allude to a bit of 'goings on' over wills or estates sometime after the fact (of death)....
And:
Probate - Eleazer PICKWICK, died 8 Dec 1837
Effects under 1000 GBP
Probate at Principal Registry - Letters of Administration 31 Oct 1868
Doesn't mention Martha WITHEY/BARROW (who would be his neice) in this Probate Index entry , but his original will should do (if the above trail is correctly leadng to him)
If this is the correct family of your Martha, she had a sister named Betty, bap 1792
http://pickwickfamily.org/p6.htm#i172
And any jokes about "Pickwick Papers"/Charles Dickens.........no joke! There are many googled up references regarding Dickens having known this family and 'appropriated' their name and a partial 'occupation' for his famous work. The Pickwick family, according to Elezer's entry in the Oxford Dictionary of National Biography, changed the name to Salisbury around 1872 (one of the names married into their family) due to having obtained a grant of Arms, but maybe also to distance themselves from Dickens' Pickwick.
Elezer was the proprietor of the White Hart Inn in Bath. Jane Austen also stayed at this inn - and found it much to her liking....
http://austenonly.com/2010/02/15/
http://members.shaw.ca/panthers10/BathHistoryNames1791.html
Cheers
AMBLY
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Thank you Thank you Thank you...I am beyond thrilled and appreciative. I did come across that 1851 census and did hope that Elizabeth was 15 ...I too saw that her birthdate was crossed through. I did find Charles living with his grandfather at the Manor in Wedmore... in 1861 but his birthdate showed him 5 instead of 8.
But where was Elizabeth and her family...dying to find that 1861 census with them in it. By 1867 they were well on their way to New York...
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PS am dying to sit down with the Martha Withey info to find out what her family was all about.
Will do a lot more reading once I get home. THIS is FASCINATING...and I am thrilled beyond words with all of the help you have given me.
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PS Another line goes back to Viscount Robert Tracy II...and I did run across a Dorothy Cocks marrying into the family. Wonder what tha t line is about.
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Oh goodness gracious....just reread what you found. WOW....this IS some interesting info. Little did I know that these lines were so fascinating. Charles Barrow was the son of John Barrow, the Magistrate at Wedmore....he and Martha Withey had Elizabeth Barrow who married Henry Ernest Wylde (of the Wyldes from the Commandery and Worcester) Gosh, this has been a fun FUN search. AM dying to come back and visit all of this. Would be fun to treat you to lunch or dinner when I do make it back that way. I am truly fascinated with my English roots. My grandfather's mother died from complications of giving him birth. His older sister died as a preteen. From 15 children that Henry Ernest Wylde and Elizabeth Barrow had...only two, Elizabeth Barrow Wylde (who married James Smithe Haring Jr) and Cecelia Wylde (who married Frederick Washburn) had any posterity. And from Elizabeth's line, only one brother of mine and me had any children.
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I am pleased to see that my Pickwick site has been so helpful :-)
I have a transcription of the very long will which Eleazer Pickwick made in 1829 and the codocil he added in 1835.
He was trying to think of every eventuality when he left instructions about his various properties. Martha is mentioned but as it is complicated and way past my bedtime I will post more tomorrow.
Copper
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If you look at this page on the Pickwick site
http://pickwickfamily.org/p1.htm#i20
you will see that Harriet Sainsbury married Charles Pickwick. It is this branch of the family which changed their name from Pickwick to Sainsbury.
Eleazer left his property to his wife and she had the choice of which property to reside in. After her death or if she decided to live in Queen Square in Bath his nephew William Eleazer Pickwick had the use of his other property. Eleazer was trying to keep his property intact so it was left to his cousin Moses Pickwick, or nephew William Eleazer Pickwick or nephew Charles Pickwick and their male heirs. If Moses had no male heirs then that property was for the use of his niece Martha Withy and her sons. If Martha had no sons then any daughters of Moses were to have use of the property. If Moses had no daughters then any daughters of Martha were to have use of the property.
Eleazer's sister Mrs Elizabeth Bullock was to receive an annual sum of £50 by quartely payments. After Elizabeth's death the trustees had to raise £2,000 which was to be paid to Martha Withy the daughter of Elizabeth Bullock.
In the codicil Martha is mentioned "my niece Martha Withey now Barrow". She and her children were to take the place of Moses Pickwick and his children. "my niece the said Martha Barrow late Withey now the wife of Charles Barrow Esquire an annuity of one hundred and fifty pounds by quarterly payments". Martha was also to receive £2,000.
You can download Eleazer's will for a small sum of money from
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/documentsonline/
Type Eleazer Pickwick in the search box and it should find the will.
I hope that this helps.
Copper
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I am THRILLED to death to get this information. Will look at all of it and try to establish birth dates and places as well as death dates and places of Martha Withey Barrow's parents...thanks so much. All of you have been SUPER....hugs sent your way from Dallas!!!!
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I have just stumbled across this line of posts. You may have come across my own query relating to another Charles Barrow (unsuccessful in posting link but made in last couple of days). My Charles was born about 1780 and married in BAckwell 1803. I connot find a link but am sure they are related as majority of Barrow family at that time came from Wedmore and surrounding villages.
Because I have been researching the family I have a bit of other information on the Wedmore branch which you may not already have.
I have the marriage of your Charles Barrow to Martha Withey in Ashwick on 6 Feb 1833.
Your Charles Barrow was son of John and Charlotte Barrow. They had two other children, Elizabeth and John (A) who were witnesses at Charles and Martha's wedding.
John (B) Barrow (their father) was baptised at Wedmore on 19 Mar 1787. He died on 27 Jan 1853 . Charlotte died on 17 Jan 1853 .
John (B) was the son of John (C) Barrow and Sarah.
John (C) Barrow was baptised on 16 Aug 1744 and died on 28 Jan 1804 in Wedmore. Sarah died on 16 Sep 1808 .
John (C) was the son of John (D) Barrow and Joanna
John (D) Barrow was born about 1699 and died on 15 May 1778. Joanna died on 10 Jan 1785.
John (D) Barrow was the son of John (E) Barrow and Grace.
John (E) Barrow was born in 1676 and died on 11 Jul 1720.Grace died in 1749.
I hope this information is useful
Please let me know if you find any link to my Charles Barrow.
lizb
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That Elizabeth Barrow was my 2ND great grandmother. I have a larger portrait of her looking at me as I type. She married Henry Ernest Wylde and came to New York in 1867. If you message me privately I will share my email address so we can exchange information. Her brother ended up being buried in the Wylde family plot at Germonds Cemetery in New City New York. You can see that info and picture on findagrave.com. I am CaroleNC on that site. It appeared that he married but was widowed and came over to live with his sister. Would be FUN to have a Barrow relative reunion one day.
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PS I made a mistake on that one...Charles Barrow and Martha had a son Charles....it was their daughter that I come down through....
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PSSS I have a family tree with source documentation on ancestry.com. Do you have that service?
You will find that many online with rootschat are WONDERFUL. My jaw has hit the floor many times with how expedient and accurate all of those in the UK are. I get tears at times thinking of HOW nice all of the English have been. It truly has brought me closer to my family that lived over there. It truly has!!!!
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I meant to say that the dates of death I gave in my post above were obtained through an old transcription of memorial inscriptions I found in The Society Of Genealogists library in London. They are the dates of death. The burial dates (a few days later) are on familysearch.org.
Some of the family were buried in the church at Wedmore and there were floor slabs and memorial tablets on the wall. I do not know if they are still there. Once I manage to sort out my family in that area I shall try and arrange a visit tot he church an dlook for them. It wont be until next year now. I will let you know what I find.
lizb
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You can find on findagrave dot com info on the tablets as well as ancestry dot com
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7 years later and I have revisited this thread. During the past 7 years, I have been helping others with their family trees on ancestry. I decided to work on my tree once again that I had started 7 years ago. Many thanks to Ambly, Cooper and Liz for the insights into this family.
I was looking at the tree I had developed from the information that was given to me. Elizabeth "Betty" Phillips Pickwick 1761-1833 who married George Withey 1754-1808 did have daughters Betty Born 1793 and Martha Born 1809. When I looked at Martha's date of birth of 1809, her mother would have been 48 years old. If she married at age 31 on 12 November 1792 at St Mary, Batwick, Somerset, and had Betty in 1793, could she have been 48 years old before she had another? I wonder if there are other children. On the Pickwick genealogy online, Betty is listed but not Martha. Martha Withey 1809-1888 did marry Charles Andrews Barrow 1811-1868.
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a date if you dont have one already ??
First name(s) MARTHA
Last name WITHEY
Licence year 1833
Licence date 02 Feb 1833
New calender date 02 Feb 1833
Bride's first name(s) Martha
Bride's last name WITHEY
Groom's first name(s) Charles
Groom's last name BARROW
Place Dioceses of England & Wales
Record set Faculty Office Marriage Licences
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and an exact date and parish -
Martha
Last name Withey
Sex Female
Marriage year 1833
Marriage date 06 FEB 1833
Parish Ashwick
Spouse's first name(s) Charles
Spouse's last name Barrow
Groom's parish Middlesex
Witnesses Grooms parish: St George the Martyr, Queen's Squar
By licence or banns lic
County Somerset
First witness Elizabeth Baron
Second witness William Eleazar P?
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Thanks ever so much for responding today.
I do believe I picked that information up. Am trying to fill in the Pickwick family as well the past few weeks.
Do hope you are having a lovely holiday season.