RootsChat.Com
Beginners => Family History Beginners Board => Topic started by: sophie03 on Wednesday 27 October 10 09:51 BST (UK)
-
hi i wondered if anyone could help please with an ancestor of mine name jervis forrester born in 1772 in bucknall stoke on trent he used to be the landlord of the hope and anchor or sometimes called the cellarhead inn at cellarhead werrington for quite a long time his family came from a farm called ubberley hall farm at bucknall what we would love to see is any old photos of the pub or of ubberleyhall farm i know its along shot also we would love to find his gravestone which we have not been able to find yet having looked round countless graveyards any help would be most appreciated thanks sophie
-
Hi Sophie,
have you checked out these websites.
www.wishful-thinking.org.uk/genuki/STS/Bucknall/MIs.html
http://reocities.com/SoHo/3753/light3.htm
Also i think i have found his gravestone in St.Peters church yard in the parish of Caverswall.
www.caverswall.org.uk/churchyard-mi-a-to-k.html
If you scroll down the page it is 3/4 of the way down.
cheers,
Billy.
-
hi billy thank you for your info i am sure they will be related somewhere but sorry i forgot to put the year that the jervis i mean died in 1845 october november december quarter.but i am sure those sites that you mentioned will be very interesting kind regards sophie
-
hi billy i just looked at those sites and was very interested as the story about brookhouse green was where some of my ancestors lived and it mentions the old spring cottage pub which my gr gr grandad kept so thanks again sophie
-
Hi Sophie,I was tracing my Forresters and noticed your messages.Just wondered how you got on.I have got back to the earlier Emanuel Forrester but no luck taking it back further.There are hints at a possible move back to the Edingburgh area where the Forresters have a significant historical connection.
Have you seen the referances to Jervis Forrester the Moorland Jew of Cellerhead who wrote Ballads ? (staffs past track)
Possibly you have this all sorted out by now lol
Regards,Steve
-
hi steve sorry for the delay in getting back to you.yes i have seen the referances about jervis forrester thanks we have got a lot further back than emmanuel forrester and found some of the forrester graves in st marys bucknall i will try to get back to you in a few days with some info if you want it they did go back to scotland and had connections with borthwick castle regards sophie
-
Hi Sophie,I would be very interested to know of anything more about the Forresters.I have seen the Forresters traced back to Borthwick Castle on Ancestry but don't know what real evidence there is going back from Emanuel.
I understand his father was John but heard that there were 2 conflicting set of birth details. One I was told has him born in the Wetley Moors/ Cellerhead area and another born in Scotland so not sure if these are the same person.I haven't seen the evidence for these but it sounds like you may have so eager to know more.
I also wondered if you know where about in the Armshead area the Forresters had their farm as I think it only indicated Armshead on the census.
My connection is through Catherine Forrester b 1837 Wyrley Bank who's father was Emanuel Forrester.
Do You know why Jervis Forrester was called the Moorland Jew and which Jervis he was ?
Many thanks
Steve
-
Hi Sophie,I would be very interested to know of anything more about the Forresters.I have seen the Forresters traced back to Borthwick Castle on Ancestry but don't know what real evidence there is going back from Emanuel.
I understand his father was John but heard that there were 2 conflicting set of birth details. One I was told has him born in the Wetley Moors/ Cellerhead area and another born in Scotland so not sure if these are the same person.I haven't seen the evidence for these but it sounds like you may have so eager to know more.
I also wondered if you know where about in the Armshead area the Forresters had their farm as I think it only indicated Armshead on the census.
My connection is through Catherine Forrester b 1837 Wyrley Bank who's father was Emanuel Forrester.
Do You know why Jervis Forrester was called the Moorland Jew and which Jervis he was ?
Many thanks
Steve
Hi Steve,
Welcome to RootsChat.
If you post once more to this thread your post will be the magic no 3 and you can send a Personnel message to Sophie3,
cheers,
Billy.
-
Hi Billy,appreciate the welcome.Looks like a very helpful Forum so look foreward to further explorations here.
Steve
-
hi steve we have had our info off ancestry right back to borthwick castle have you seen the castle on google also we have had info off Genes Reunited off someones personel tree.we have seen emanuel forresters grave at bucknall church yard b1789 died21st march 1856 leaving a widow and 10 children and54 grandchildren and 4 great grandchildreni.if you are on genes and would like access to our tree it is under the name michelle.did your catherine marry a john johnson .i am only guessing that jervis did a lot of wandering and thats why they called him the wandeing jew we have jervis obituary which is very interesting from the staffs advertiser 1845 i dont know if you have it already but i will send it to you.i am elizabeth forrester b1827 great great grand daughter, the armshead area is in werrington but we do not know where exactly the farm was but we have been and took a photo of the hope and anchor pub which jervis kept kind regards sophie
-
hi steve,
having trouble sending you the obituary,it says file to large ,could you send me your email address
regards
sophie03
-
Hi Sophie
Have you got any further re Jervis Forrester and Ubberley Hall Farm?. Jervis went bankrupt and lost the Hope & Anchor together with all his other property in the late 1830s early 1640s. I have seen his grave at St Peters Caverswall. He is with interned with a number of his children and his 2nd wife Elizabeth.
I did have some pictures of Ubberley Hall Farm. Will try to locate them from some old floppy disks. The farm was owned by Hugh Forrester b1827 he was a grandson of Emanuel Forrester the brother of Jervis Forrester my 3x great grandfather.
I see people have mentioned Borthwick Castle and linked the family to the 9th Lord Borthwick on some family trees. This is incorrect as the 9th Lord died without issue and the title became dormant.
Many years ago my grandfather produced a family tree back to a John Forrester born about 1723 at Corstophine Castle, near Edinburgh. It was stated that John joined the Jacobite Army which invaded England, he then settled in Staffordshire following the Jacobite retreat from Derby. Taking service with a farmer, he later married the farmers daughter and inherited the farm.
The estate of Cortorphine was sold by the Forrester's in 1698 and no Forrester tenants are shown after that date. However it was found that a John Forrester was baptised in Leith in 1723 this could be the actual link as no other trace could be found. The scots connection cannot be proven for certain.
It is recognised by the Lord Lyon in Scotland that the surname of Forrester with the double "rr" is uniquely scots and derives from the title of Lords Forrester in the mid 1600s.
I shall look forward to hearing form you.
Best regards
Clive Forrester
-
hi clive thank you for writing i have found the grave now thanks but not done much more yet.we would love to see any photos of ubberley hall farm that you may have.thanks for the information glad you have pointed it out that it is wrong about being linked to borthwick.thomas forrester was my gr gr gr grandfather he died on 3rd june 1877 and he is buried at bucknall churchyard with his wife elizabeth. their daughter elizabeth forrester married james aldridge and their daughter mary ann aldridge is my great grandma.have you got jervis,s obituary it is quite interesting if you have not got it i will send you a copy if you would like one.have you seen that book titled bucknall a hole wears longer than a patch,authour is elizabeth bass there is a paragraph on ubberley hall farm and mentions hugh forrester kind regards sophie
-
Hi Sophie, thanks for getting back. I have the obituary for Jervis thanks any way. Have not seen the book by Elizabeth Bass. Shall get the old floppy disks sorted next week and hope the Ubberley Hall Farm pics are still on them. Found the auction poster dated 1839 for the property of Jervis due to him being bankrupt. Will get back to you next week.
Regards
Clive
-
thank you clive regards sophie
-
Hi Sophie, Just to let you know yesterday I found an entry for Jervis Forrester of Cellar Head, in the Law Journal Gazette dated 31 May 1838 it stated that he divorced his wife Elizabeth in 1838. This would seem to clarify why he was not with her on the 1841 census.
Regards
Clive
-
hi clive thats a bit of good detective work sophie
-
Hi Sofie
Sorry to say that the floppy disks re Ubberley Hall Farm pictures were corrupted. However I have found a photo copy of a picture sent to me by Elizabeth Bass. I can send this to you via email just let me know your email.
Did try to send it earlier but rootsweb would not attach the picture.
Regards
Clive
-
Hello,
Clive you say a tree was produced by your grandfather, where did he get his information from? Who did he think was Henry Forresters (b1698) parents?
Tom
-
Also can you shed any light on the mother of Mary Tweedie who was the mother of John Forrester. Ive found the marriage for James Tweedie and Elizabeth Borthwick, and it states that Elizabeths father was William Borthwick. All the trees ive seen say her parents were Thomas Borthwick and Bessie Notman.
Can you help?
Tom
-
Hello Fellow researchers.
I have just read through this thread seeking information.
and can see much material which is of great interest to me.
My connection is James FORRESTER 1777 - he appears to be a 4th GGF of mine.
I wonder if anyone still reading has a copy of the obit for Jervis I would love to see it.
I see that this thread is quite dusty But hope it pings up on someones inbox.
Many Thanks Martin
-
Hi Martin, I have sent you a DM. I descend from Jervis's brother Emanuel.
-
Greetings Tom.
I arrived on this thread following a visit to St Mary's at Bucknall just last week (Jan 2020). I don't know who I expected to find but I was very pleased to have located Emanuel FORRESTER's epic Gravestone.
A little internet work got me here.
I have copies of:-
1) John's will (1723-1780 ) and
2) Emanuel's Will (1769-1836)
Both wills are extremely useful. John identifies himself at Launders Bank. Emanuel is not too specific about his property.
What is for sure is that the family is huge. I reckon the KINGPIN -
John and Mary FORRESTER produced 12 Children.
Working very roughly and not investigating each resultant family too thoroughly I estimate that those 12 individuals produced at least 82 more children at the very next generation.
Therefore mistakes are inevitable.
BUT
researching is very rewarding.
Martin
-
I am not sure I have seen Emanuel's will! Did you get a photo of the gravestone? Id love to see both if possible.
-
OK
here is the gravestone - I have had to reduce it by 80pc to get it on the post.
Hope you can read it.
I can't get the 4 page will to anything worth sending so will need to get 3 posts in first..
Martin
-
Thats great! Does it say died 1836 or 1856?
-
Yes that is exactly what I thought.
I initially took it to be 1856 - which then does not fit.
BUT zooming in it becomes clear.
It is 1836 - so all is good.
I am working on the will.
Martin
-
Here is a test - This stone is directly in front of Emanuel FORRESTER's.
Made out to Edward FORRESTER and his wife Elizabeth
Edward died 18th August 1851 ( it is 1851 not 1831 ) aged 47.
Does he fit on our tree ?
-
An old thread but still of great interest ! Interesting to see Edward Forresters Grave, I couldn't see a baptism record. There is an inquest related to his death on the 18 Aug 1851 Staffordshire Advertiser - Saturday 23 August 1851"Awful Calamity at Ubberley Colliery 7 lives lost"
https://www.britishnewspaperarchive.co.uk/viewer/bl/0000252/18510823/067/0007
It would still be good to find more to substantiate the Scottish lineage theory based on Clive Forresters grandfathers family tree. Just wondering if many Forresters have done a DNA test to see if this helps?
-
I very much doubt the tree showing the link to Scotland is correct.
There are other foresters in the stoke area going back further. Some Jervis foresters too. An uncommon name that I’d imagine only a relative would have.
-
Greetings fellow Forrester researchers.
Thanks for the link to the Colliery disaster - it just so happens that I have one free "look" to use so I have just downloaded the PDF from their site.
Forresters were "BIG" into coal -
Emanuel FORRESTER born 1797 was a Coal Master and operated a number of Pits in South Staffordshire.
Also The Staffordshire tithe maps have just been loaded onto Past Track so the Bucknall map and associated search index is totally great for locating Forrester properties in the mid 1850's.
https://www.search.staffspasttrack.org.uk/Details.aspx?&ResourceID=42601&PageIndex=14&KeyWord=tithe&SortOrder=2
https://www.staffsnameindexes.org.uk/default.aspx?Index=P&OwnerLN=&PartOW=1&OwnerFN=&OccupierLN=&PartOC=1&OccupierFN=&Town=bagnall&Parish=&Plot=&PlNo=
Although the Scottish link is fanciful - there is still a possibility that it is true. the 1745 Army did get up to some mischief in Bucknall and Bagnall before retreating back to Scotland. And why was Jarvis so interested in singing about Scottish songs. So I would not rule it out just yet.
PS I have worked out how to get the bigger maps too.
-
Such a sad article about the loss of the Colliers.
I am now fairly confident that Edward FORRESTER was one of the many Children of James FORRESTER born 1777.
There is just a space for him on my tree. Circled in yellow below.
This would make Edward a 4th Great Uncle of mine.
Interesting to read that the disaster took place on 18th August 1851 ( also noted on the gravestone ). The colliery owner and coal-master, Mr Ridgeway, sent a letter that very day to the secretary of state in London reporting the matter. The very next day Whitehall acknowledge receipt of that communication.
Now that is quick !!
-
On the marriage register for Edward James and Alice are witnesses so I was thinking along the same lines for Edward.
Some examples of Forresters with Moorland connections-
The wills, available on Find My Past, along with family names particularly Gervis lead me to think the Forresters are historically from the Staffs Moorlands area . The will of Gervis Forrester 1745 mentions "lands hereditaments and properties in the parish of Kingsley" . This 1745 will names his wife as Ellen and children Ellen Stockley (married to Moses Stockley 1734),Mary Smith ,John and Gervis. At the time of death he is living at Stoke Hall. Interestingly there are possible corresponding baptisms at Cheddleton for the children of Gervis and Ellen Foster. I may be wrong but these fit well-
"Jhn" 1712 at Leek, then Cheddleton Ellin 1715,Mary 1717,Gervase 1719, James born 1721 and buried 1722. I think this has to be the same family.
Jarvis Foster marriage to Ellin Bagnall 1711 Kingsley.
John Forresters will of 1747 with wife Ann and sons John and Jervis mentions Freehold Estate in the parish of Kingsley and Cunshall? Cheddleton, possibly Consall?
Like Tom I descend from Emmanuel and his son Emmanuel. DNA matches on Ancestry have shown up a lot of matches back to John at Launders Bank. A general DNA search further back for Forresters in Staffordshire gives matches particularly for Kingsley Oakamoor and Alton but this is only a possibility.
As more DNA matches come along I feel pretty certain this is going to show Forresters historically living in the Staffs Moorlands but open minded to any new evidence.
-
..and thanks for the tithe map link. I had seen this when it came out on the Genealogist website but no longer subscribe so great to have access to it again. Cheers
-
Most amazing is that Daniel JENKISON is a 7th Great Uncle of mine. He was a resident at Hollins - Greenhead, Blakeley Lane in Kingsley and in 1741 sold some property to Jervase FORRESTER alias FORSTER a Yeoman from Stoke Upon Trent.
Oldfields and Thornburys Fields are mentioned in the document.
That is what I call an epic coincidence.
I must admit that I can't remember that will of Gervase/Jervase of 1745 But I am going to say it has to be the same person.
The will having been made 4 years after the land transaction.
I have got a tick next to it when I look at my "Find My Past" records But I have not got it saved anywhere. I may have to sign up for another month.
-
That is some coincidence and very interesting to hear about. No doubt this is the same Jervis Forrester and interesting use of surname Forster.
The change of name is reasonably common I think. Looking at the Alton/Oakamoor Forresters I recall use of Forest also being used interchangeably it seemed.
Part of the 1745 Will of Gervas Forester-
"...to be payable out of all my messuage or tenements commonly called the Thornburys Fields and all my lands hereditaments and premises.. situate being in the parish of Kingsley which lately purchased off from one Daniel Jenkinson to be paid to the said Ellen (wife) "
The Hollins was also mentioned in another will ,just need to check this.
-
The Hollins at Kingsley is mentioned in the will of Jarvis Forrester 1786 ,probate year 1799 with John Jackson as tenant. This Jarvis is farming near to Bradley Stafford so I was unsure from BDM's if he was part of the same family. But with the Hollins connection looks like he is part of the clan.
Jervis Forrester's burial 1788 Bradley shows he was born about 1746. This looks like Jarvis baptised 1746 at Stoke, son of John and Ann.
His brother John Forrester buried 1782 Bradley Stafford, born about 1742.
Baptism 1744 for a John Forrester son of John and Ann at Stoke.
-
On the marriage register for Edward James and Alice are witnesses so I was thinking along the same lines for Edward.
Some examples of Forresters with Moorland connections-
The wills, available on Find My Past, along with family names particularly Gervis lead me to think the Forresters are historically from the Staffs Moorlands area . The will of Gervis Forrester 1745 mentions "lands hereditaments and properties in the parish of Kingsley" . This 1745 will names his wife as Ellen and children Ellen Stockley (married to Moses Stockley 1734),Mary Smith ,John and Gervis. At the time of death he is living at Stoke Hall. Interestingly there are possible corresponding baptisms at Cheddleton for the children of Gervis and Ellen Foster. I may be wrong but these fit well-
"Jhn" 1712 at Leek, then Cheddleton Ellin 1715,Mary 1717,Gervase 1719, James born 1721 and buried 1722. I think this has to be the same family.
Jarvis Foster marriage to Ellin Bagnall 1711 Kingsley.
John Forresters will of 1747 with wife Ann and sons John and Jervis mentions Freehold Estate in the parish of Kingsley and Cunshall? Cheddleton, possibly Consall?
Like Tom I descend from Emmanuel and his son Emmanuel. DNA matches on Ancestry have shown up a lot of matches back to John at Launders Bank. A general DNA search further back for Forresters in Staffordshire gives matches particularly for Kingsley Oakamoor and Alton but this is only a possibility.
As more DNA matches come along I feel pretty certain this is going to show Forresters historically living in the Staffs Moorlands but open minded to any new evidence.
I have taken a month with Find My past and had a look at your suggestions.
I agree with you completely
Clearly the name FORSTER is interchangeable with FORRESTER.
I noticed The marriage licence for Moses Stockley in 1734 names Hellen FORRESTER as opposed to FORSTER.
So I am confident this group are linked.
All we have to do now its to work out how this fits with our tree. !!
-
Good find, I think the marriage licence nails the Forrester/Foster surname argument.
Looking for a potential north staffs baptism for John Forrester of Launders Bank, one possibility is the baptism at Stoke, parents William and Mary.
This was on the 27 Nov 1731. I couldn't see any other baptisms with parents William and Mary but maybe not looked into this enough or at burials for either parent.
John and Mary Lightwood's first child is also called William, a suggestion possibly that a William Forrester may be his father ?
On the 21 Nov another John Forrester is baptised at Stoke, parents John and Mary. It looks like this John may have been buried in 1740 "John son of John Forrester of Bucknall". Other children of John and Mary baptised at St Peters, Stoke - Isabella 1733 of Bagnall, Thomas 1735 of Bucknall, William 1736 of Bucknall, Thomas 1741 of Bucknall .
Burials of children of John Forrester- William 1737 of Bucknall, Ann 1740 of Bucknall, another William 1740 of Bucknall.
Both John Forresters baptised within the same week, could William and John be brothers possibly?
This at least appears to be an interesting connection with the Bucknall/Bagnall area in the 1730's to consider.
-
I was leaning towards William and Mary being the parents of John.
Here are some notes I’d made against John...
Did have as the son of John and Mary, but thier son b1731 appears to have died in 1740 along with his brother William who was born in 1736. The family were of Bucknall.
There is a Gervas Forrester who left a Will in 1745, mentions wife Ellen (Bagnall m1711 Kingsley (Foster))and sons John (cant find bapt) and Gervas (1719). Daughters Ellen Stockley (1715) , Mary Smith (1717). - All baptised in Cheddleton. Likely relations as Gervas/Jervis isnt a common name.
-
I cant find any baptism or marriage for William Foster/Forrester ,just wondered if anyone else had seen these?
Looking at Moses Stockley there's 2 likely burials 1780 and 1787. On the 1787 Moses Stockley Will there's mention of Mary Kent daughter of the late Jarvis Forrester of Stoke. Presume this refers to Mary bapt 1717 Cheddleton?
Noticed a baptism for Gervasius/Jervis Foster at Cheadle 1677 so presume not the Jervis who married Ellen 1711 at Kingsley, but another interesting Moorland connection possibly. Parents Thomas and Dorothy, other children William 1665,Thomas 1666,Elizabeth 1668 Thomas 1675,Jervis 1677,John 1686.
-
I have been looking at the Bradley- near Stafford- grouping today and it is all fitting together very nicely.
Most pleased to see:-
John Forrester
Marriage date 20 Apr 1737
Marriage place Leek, St Edward
Denomination Anglican
Residence Grindon
Spouse's first name(s) Anne Birch
Spouse's residence Leek
County Staffordshire
Country England
Archive reference D1040/5/3
Nice to see mention of the Kingsley Coalmine in John FORRESTERS will (1747)
This links it all together and Daniel JENKINSON too !!
Still working on the link to John FORRESTER from Launders Bank - But I am sure we will get there !!
-
Noticed a baptism for Gervasius/Jervis Foster at Cheadle 1677 so presume not the Jervis who married Ellen 1711 at Kingsley, but another interesting Moorland connection possibly. Parents Thomas and Dorothy, other children William 1665,Thomas 1666,Elizabeth 1668 Thomas 1675,Jervis 1677,John 1686.
Rule nothing out - very interesting
-
Someone else has already jumped to this conclusion.
The Jarvis born 1677 would have been 34 at marriage to Ellin Bagnall and 45 at the birth of thier last child - I have to say this is certainly fitting with basic family biology.
notice Also Top of the list is a William ( could he later pair with a lady called Mary and produce Launders bank John at Stoke in 1731 ? ) It would have made William 66 in 1731 BUT Forrester men were prolific Fathers)
-
There's a burial at Cheadle in 1667 for William son of Thomas and Dorothy Fostor unfortunately, but good to check these out.
If this does turn out to be the right family there are 2 interesting wills- William in 1663, a Wood Collier of Eastwall Cheadle, and earlier in 1637 for Thomas, a Wood Collier of Eastwall.
For anyone not knowing the area Eastwall is heading towards Kingsley Holt, featured on Time Team a few years back relating to smelting metals. I hadn't heard of the term Wood Collier but this refers to charcoal burners which fits perfectly with Eastwall. So an interesting historical link if this turns out to be related.
-
Hi
Just found this. I’m also in the tree somewhere. John Forrester and Mary Lightwood were my 5th Great Grandparents. I’m keen to swap histories and trees if you’re interested. Very interested in the John Forrester will.
My link is thru their son John Forrester (m) Mary Hammersley.
Fran Evans.
-
Very new to this. How can I message people direct. I
-
new members can not access the pm function until they have made a couple of posts, which you now have. You do this by clicking on the round circle that is below the users profile name. Please do not publicly reveal your email address as this is how spammers pick up on your details.
Regards
Sarah
-
Greetings Fran
Welcome to the FORRESTER, FORESTER, FORISTER, FORSTER, FOSTER discussion page.
Such is the problem with the name records can be found with all sorts of spellings.
BUT it is a fascinating subject our family history.
This is what I have for your brach.
Best Wishes Martin
-
Part of the 1745 Will of Gervas Forester-
"...to be payable out of all my messuage or tenements commonly called the Thornburys Fields
Here is part of the 1840's Tithe map property 754 is Thornbury Meadow. Stands a chance of being the same property. I have highlighted Kingsley Holt as a place mark.
-
Agree that this is very likely the area mentioned and presume not a coincidence with Thornbury Hall being in this area . On the Thornbury Hall restaurant website it states " The listed building survey of Cheadle, lists Thornbury Hall as Grade II with an Elizabethan wing at 1650 and a Georgian mansion of at 1750, but an entry in the Visitation book for 1620 records Johannes Thornbury and family as residents of a hall." So presume the lands of the Thornbury family originally. Thornbury Hall is just below Lockwood Hall Farm.
Coincidently Eastwall, mentioned previously, is very close to Thornbury Hall with Forresters working there during the 1600's.
-
An 1800's map showing Thornbury Hall and Eastwall to bottom right corner.
-
In connection with family names there is also an earlier Emanuel Forester baptised at Stoke in 1732 son of Henry and Susannah Forester. Although I guess people may have already see this it now seems more interesting that after marriage to Mary Pointon in 1754 Emanuel has a son Benjamin baptised 1756. Benjamin is shown baptised next to Moses Stockley(son of Moses Stockley /Ellen Forrester mentioned earlier), so looks possibly like a family baptism day.
Henry's marriage register record states he is of Handley (Hanley) and possible burial 1756 says of Bucknall.
An interesting coincidence at least with the grandson of a Gervis Forrester and a son of Emmanuel Forrester baptised at the same time/place on the 23 April 1756 at St Peters Stoke.
Also that this Emanuel's father, Henry, was possibly living in the Bucknall area in 1756.
(other children of Henry/Susannah- Hannah bapt. 1730 Stoke and possibly Patientia/Patience Foster bapt. 1718 Stoke and Henry Foster bapt. 1727 Stoke)
-
Hi Sophie, just read again your opening to this thread "...his family came from a farm called ubberley hall farm at bucknall what we would love to see is any old photos of the pub or of ubberleyhall farm i know its along shot".
I was discussing this with someone on Facebook who's mother, Annie May Forrester daughter of Hugh and Olive, was at the hall. I have the 3 books by Elizabeth Bass and there's a photo of Ubberley Hall on the back of "Wetley Moor to Bucknall Sands". Presume this was the one Clive mentioned.If Clive did find them and sent them to you it would be interesting to see any more. We were just discussing the old Ubberley House ,further down from the site of the hall on Ubberley Road, as Forresters are still living there ,grandchildren of Hugh Forrester.
-
"Ubberley Hall Farm home of the Forresters and ancient house of the Allens"
-
This is from" Bucknall to Cellerhead through time"
-
I have added a plan
which I think comes from your theory
There are just so many of these John FORESTER combinations.
BUT
there is a good chance it is correct.
I have put a yellow circle round the possible placement of "Launders bank JOHN FORESTER" in this plan.
What does make sense is that his fist male child gets the name William - which is is a traditional thing to do. Named after his own Father.
See what you think.
-
Here is the incrusted headstone of Hugh FORRESTER.
-
And with some ivy pulled away.
-
I have been trying to establish a location for Stoke Hall as named in the will of Gervas FFORRESTER in 1743.
He describes himself as Yeoman.
This is the best I can find in the parish of Stoke upon Trent.
-
That is I think correct for Stoke Hall and that Gervis may have been a tenant farmer there?
A history of the county of Stafford 1963 has this useful bit of info-
" The moated parsonage-house was known in the 19th century as Stoke Hall and lay south of the church beyond the road to Fenton. This house, or another house on the same site, was in existence by the mid-15th century as the residence of James Moseley, the rector's proctor. Occupied by the curate at the beginning of the 17th century, the hall was again the rector's home in 1666 when John Mainwaring (rector 1633–92) was taxable on eight hearths there. It was in the hands of a tenant-farmer in 1818 and of the curate c. 1828 after the demolition of the curate's house in the churchyard. 'A truly shabby house' by this time, it was repaired in 1829 out of money raised by the sale of tithes and glebe, and was again occupied by the curate in 1851, the rector being non-resident (Stoke Hall farm was then held by a tenant. The rector had been living at the Hall in 1834). Sir Lovelace Tomlinson Stamer lived there until 1864 when Cliffville, the house built by John Tomlinson in 1810 on an estate of 70 acres near Hartshill, was acquired as the rectory house along with 20 acres of land. New streets were being laid out over part of the estate in 1877. The hall was evidently let until 1891. It was then demolished and tramway offices and sheds, now the P.M.T. offices and garage, were built on the site, while more streets were laid out over the estate during the next few years."
It might be interesting to see if there are any tenant records in the archives for Stoke Hall /St Peters rectory. On at least the 1900 map it is called the Rectory before being replaced by the "Omnibus Depot"
From potteries org "This map is undated but it is between 1800 and 1826.. The church and the rector's house (Stoke Hall) stood on moated sites which provided protection not only from attackers but also from the river which periodically flooded the meadow land in the valley bottom. "
-
This is cracking information and would fit precisely with the inventory of Goods and Chattels
in the possession of Gervas FFORRESTER when he died.
I am sure that the "Gentleman" of Stoke Hall would not have Pewter plates, Oxen, Twinters and bags of oats listed amongst his prize possessions.
But certainly for a tenant farmer or Yeoman these would be the stock in trade.
I will admit to having placed too much credence with the "Jacobite John 1723" theory.
I am now more of a full Staffordshire heritage. I am going with FORESTER as the main name which became FORRESTER overtime.
( I don't think Sophie is reading anymore, otherwise she would have chirped up)
P.S I love that word TWINTER
it stands for a beast which has survived two winters.
-
This is part of a painting by Henry Lark PRATT. 1805 - 1873
View of Stoke from Penkhul.
Henry is buried at St Peter's.
If Stoke Hall was standing I have marked the possible spot.
-
I am fairly confident that "Launders bank" John FORESTER born 1731 (married to Mary LIGTWOOD) was resident at Launders Bank farm when he recorded his will in 1780.
I am happy to see that FORRESTER'S were still there in 1911. Probably later too !!
George FORRESTER born 1862 was a son of Edward FORRESTER who died in the Ubberley Colliery disaster 1851.
Edward born 1804, killed at the Ubberley disaster, was a son of James Forrester born 1777 and Betty WARDLE born 1784.
James born 1777 was a son of William and Mary FORESTER.
I am trying to link this branch back to the original Launders Bank John FORESTER (married to Mary LIGHTWOOD)
still working on it !!
My current best guess is William, Father of James born 1777 and "Launders bank" John FORESTER born 1731 (married to Mary LIGTWOOD) were Brothers.
copyright image removed
-
I have added the below image for the benefit of TEZ.
-
Here is the left part - The tree is so big and there are so many re-cycles of the names too !!
-
Hello, to all who are interested in the Forrester family tree . please read the history of Biddulph in it it mentions a Richard the Forrester 1089 it also mentions in 1745 the passing through of Scottish soldiers on the way to Derby .So there were Forresters in Staffordshire before the link to John ,but there could also be a link to John through the Scottish soldiers , Sorry Martin if this has given you more research,Tez.
-
Hi Tez, welcome to the forum. Hopefully Forrester DNA matches might shed more light on this. I share a Forrester DNA match with Philip B. who also has Aldridge connections so presume he is closely related to you back to Elizabeth Forrester and James Aldridge?
Keeping an open mind on all things Forrester at the moment, hopefully the evidence will point the way over time.
-
Still yet to sort out FORESTER families for the 1700's
BUT I am sure here is the root of it all.
Here is a clipping from the doomsday record.
I have never been a one for Latin.
NAME: RICHARD THE FORESTER
This landowner is associated with 0 places before the Conquest; 21 after the Conquest. (Note that the same name is not necessarily the same person.)
After the Conquest
Tenant-in-chief in 1086:
Tenants-in-chief held land directly from the Crown.
Bramcote, Bumbelowe, Warwickshire
Chesterton, Tremlowe, Warwickshire
Clayton, Pirehill, Staffordshire
Dimsdale, Pirehill, Staffordshire
Estendone, Cuttlestone, Staffordshire
» Show 14 more
Lord in 1086:
The immediate lord over the peasants after the Conquest, who paid tax to the tenant-in-chief.
Bramcote, Bumbelowe, Warwickshire
Calcutt, Marton, Warwickshire
Chesterton, Tremlowe, Warwickshire
Dimsdale, Pirehill, Staffordshire
Estendone, Cuttlestone, Staffordshire
-
A bit of work to do before we get back to Doomsday ;D but interesting to see the mention of Forresters.
From what we know Elizabeth W Bass local historian suggested the Scottish Jacobite connection and I was told by someone who knew Elizabeth that the evidence she gave for this was the will of John Forrester of Launders Bank.
Here is the will -
By the will of God Amen I John Forester of Launders Bank in the parish of Stoke Upon Trent and county of Stafford Husband Man being weak and infirm of body but at the time of sealing and Delivering this my will and testament of perfect Disposing mind and memory thanks be to God for the same this fourth day of October in the year one thousand Seven hundred and Eighty make and ordain this my last will and testament to and for the intents and purposes herein after mentioned
and first my will is that all my just debts and funeral expenses be paid out of such of my worldly property as my executors shall think proper in the next place I do give and bequeath to my loving wife Mary Forester all those pieces and parcels of land situate at Brookhouse Lane head in the parish and county aforesaid which said land I the said John Forester purchased of Mr Thomas Walklate together with that Dwelling House and Out buildings and lands thereto belonging situate on the side of Wetley Moor and known by the name of the Limekiln Bank in the parish and county aforesaid and granted to me upon lease for the term of ninety nine years from Mr Thomas Walklate aforesaid During the time of my said wife's natural life the same to be occupied in the most proper manor that my executors shall find most profitable for the maintenance of my said wife and such of my younger children that shall not be able to maintain themselves.
Next I do give and bequeath to my said wife all my cattel of what kind so ever together with all my household goods and furniture (.....?) all bills bonds and ready money and possession of the farm called Launders Bank with all other my personal estate of what kind so ever for the use of her my said wife and such youngest children that are now or shall not be able to maintain them selves during the time of my said wife's natural life and when such of my cattle as shall become useless by reason of age or other casualty's and there by the said stock be diminished my will is that the same shall be replaced at the discretion of my executors in order that my stock may be kept up as much as possible for the use and maintenance of my said wife and youngest children as before mentioned and be it always understood that I do hereby give all the within mentioned estates real and personal as before mentioned to my said wife during the time of her natural life only and at the time of her my wife's decease then my will is that all my said lands goods and cattle or estates real and personal or other property to me or her lawfully belonging shall then be should and the produce thereof equally divided amongst all my children then living or their heirs share and share alike
and my will is that if my wife shall happen to marry another husband that then my will is that all my aforesaid estates shall be then should both real and personal and of every kind to and lawfully belonging together with household goods and cattle and property of what kind so ever or any ready money or the produce of any bills or bonds to me lawfully belonging and all the same equally divided betwixt my said wife and all my children at that time living or their heirs and if at the time of my decease I shall have a lease of the farm I now Occupy called Lauders Bank and my wife shall either marry another husband or think proper to quit the said farm then the possession of the same to be given to such of my children as my executors shall think proper ... paying a just value for the same and if any profit ariseth from the said lease the same be toward the maintenance of my said youngest children and wife at the discretion of my executors
Last of all I do nominate and appoint my wife Mary Forester and my father in law Charles Lightwood and my son Charles Forester executrix and executors of this my last will and testament hereby revoking all will or wills by me heretofore made as witness my mark and seal the day and year within mentioned
Signed sealed and declared the last will and testament of the within named John Forester the testator
In the presence of all whose names are under wrote being with and be in the same room at signing and sealing hereof
John Walklate John Shaw John Forrester his mark +
Ellen Weatherby
-
Have just come across this link about the Forresters ,i know you are all pretty clued up about the Forresters but it may contain some info about them you don,t have. https://www.tribalpages.com/tribe/familytree?uid=pk1949&surname=Forrester Tez.
-
The will is great and positively links John FORESTER to Mary LIGHTWOOD.
The person who recorded it spelt FORESTER without the double RR.
( Great list too TEZ - those are all double RR FORRESTERS too. imagine the list with FORRISTER FORESTER FOSTER etc. )
Back to the will.
I can't think of any connecting item in this will which links to anything SCOTTISH.
Can we be happy that the first property he mentions is the one in the map below ?
"all those pieces and parcels of land situate at Brookhouse Lane head in the parish and county aforesaid which said land I the said John Forester purchased of Mr Thomas Walklate together with that Dwelling House and Out buildings and lands thereto belonging situate on the side of Wetley Moor and known by the name of the Limekiln Bank in the parish and county aforesaid and granted to me upon lease for the term of ninety nine years from Mr Thomas Walklate aforesaid.
I am fairly sure that the below is Launders Bank where John was living when he died.
-
Definitely the site of John Forresters Launders Bank from the description in the will, such as Brookhouse Lane, and still a property there. The Walklate's mentioned in the will are also connected to nearby Hanley Hays (immediately below Launders bank) and Kerry Hill. Walklate wills can seen on Find My Past.
The various spellings of Forester through to Foster discussed earlier are also shown with the Forrester's who moved down to Bradley from Stoke so for them Foster was interchangeable it seems with Forrester.
Still a possibility therefore of a connection back to Cheadle/Kingsley with Gervis Foster 1677 and 1635...maybe.
Thanks Tez for the link, I had contact with Pete Brown, he had a tree on tribalpages, who was very helpful about 10 years ago. He was a bit dubious about John Forrester being a Jacobite but mentioned the local story around Brown Edge about Jacobite soldiers in the area and some some staying behind.
-
The Jacobite's of 1745 were reported present in the Bucknall parish register notes.
Which is why it is always plausible that John FORESTER could have travelled down from Scotland as part of that army and did not go back.
I would like that to be the history. But I feel the family roots are North Staffordshire and not Scottish.
-
page 18 from the transcribed register shows how the name FORESTER appears without the double RR.
-
With William Murhall this was allegedly to have been about the locally well known origin of the place name Tomkin with the rather unpleasant story of his Jacobite prisoner being flayed alive, Toms Skin. Tomkin being right in the heart of the Forrester farms in the area such as Coalpitford, Wistonshaw etc.
-
OH YES - The Tomkin.
I forget which will it was now BUT one of the FORESTER'S nominated Samuel WOOD a blacksmith at the TOMPKIN as an executor of his will.
This must be the place.
I have found the will now - it was Michael WARDLE. The Brother-in Law of James FORRESTER b1777.
-
Hi
I am trying to find any information on the Allens of Ubberley Hall.
I recently discovered a newspaper article from the Liverpool Mercury 19th March 1873, about a relative, Samuel Allen from Bucknall, claiming that he had the deeds to the hall. I came across your post mentioning Ubberley and hoped that you might be able to help.
Thanks
-
Hi Alice, I havent researched Ubberley Hall other than the Forrester connection ie from Joseph Lymer's time at Ubberley and his daughter Maria's marriage to Hugh Forrester who then began the Foresters line at Ubberley Hall. I previously saw the 1873 newspaper mentions of Samuel Allen's windfall with the deeds and this saying the Allens had the Hall back to the William the Conqueror .
Theres a mention here of Ubberley Hall which suggests perhaps not quite back to William the conqueror. https://www.oocities.org/soho/3753/light3.htm
Maybe others others have researched it on ancestry? A starting point might be Benjamin Allen as he is at Holly Grove next to Ubberley Hall on the 1841 census or maybe Henry William Ubberley Allen born 1830 baptised Bucknall which sounds like he might be connected to the ancient allen line?
-
Many thanks
-
I had a quick look and so far got back to a marriage of Benjamin Allen and Ann Poulson 1690 at St Peters Stoke. The baptism's of some their ,at least, 8 children gives the father as Benjamin of Ubberley. Not sure if this refers to the Hall or farms at Ubberley such as Holly Greave but presume the Hall. This is the line of Allen's where I'm pretty sure Samuel in the newspaper comes from so likely Benjamin was at the Hall
May be worth considering opening a seperate forum page just for this and see if you can draw anyone else in?
The only earlier reference I've seen to the Allen's at Ubberley Hall is Elizabeth Bass brief mention on the back of "From Wetley Moor to Bucknall Sands" with the old photo of the Hall. There's also a photo in Neil Collingwoods book "Bucknall to Cellarhead" taken I think in the 1950s.
-
Thank you so much for the information, Its much appreciated.
-
maybe staffordshire archives might have a copy of the deeds,might be worth asking. Good luck
-
Thank you, its worth a try.