RootsChat.Com
England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Warwickshire => Topic started by: littleem1906 on Friday 29 October 10 13:19 BST (UK)
-
I have in my family tree GEORGE SMITH (1851-?) born in Leominster, Hereford. I know that he married CLARA MILLER (1851-?) born in Birmingham. (Miller is a guess for a surname, as I found a marriage on IGI for a George Smith marrying a Clara in Birmingham around the year their first child was born). They married on 11 Aug 1872.
I have George and Clara in the 1881 and 1891 census records and have . It seems they had the following children (there could be more who were born/died between census')
- FRED SMITH (1871-?)
- GEORGE SMITH (1872-?)
- POLLY SMITH (1873-?)
- LEAH SMITH (1877-?)
- GERTIE SMITH (1979-?)
- CLAUD SMITH (1880-?)
- ALONZO SMITH (1881-?) married Florence Susannah Platford and had 2 daughters in the 1911 census FLORENCE L SMITH (1903-?) and ELSIE V SMITH (1908-?) and a son after the 1911 census, JOHN ALFRED SMITH (1915-1986). There could be more children that I haven't found.
- BEATRICE SMITH (1884-?)
- WILFRED SMITH (1885-?)
- WILLIAM SMITH (1886-?)
- ELVIE (1888-?)
- OLIVE SMITH (1889-?)
- NELLIE SMITH (1890-?)
Then in 1901 George appears with a wife called LEAH (1852-?) born in Birmingham with these extra children.
- MONA SMITH (1891-?)
- ETHEL SMITH (1892-?)
- WINNIE SMITH (1893-?)
- LEONARD SMITH (1895-?)
- BERTIE SMITH (1900-?)
This is what I would like to know:
1) When was George Smith born and who are his parents? I have been unable to find a birth for George Smith as in 1881 census he claims to be born in Birmingham, then in 1891 born in Leominster Herefordshire, then in 1901 born in Bedfordshire!! It is definately the same family in each census as the children and ages match.
2) When did George and Clara die?
3) Do I have the correct marriage for George and Clara - is there another Clara it could be?
4) Who is George's second wife Leah? Could this still be Clara? If so the poor woman had at least 18 children!!!
5) What became of their children - marriages, children, deaths etc?
Can anyone help?
-
Hi there,
Its not impossible to have 18 children by the same wife ... several of my 19thC family managed 19 and 20, with a couple of multiple births. But of course with that very popular surname of SMITH ... well I would not just rely on the census records or even on the IGI extracted ... I'd be wanting to obtain actual certificates which should show lots more information about the family ... for example marriage should have the names of the groom and bride's parents, occupations, addresses, ages etc ... You have Clara Miller marrying a George Smith at All Saints, Birmingham, Warwick on 11 August 1872 ... but how do you know that it was 'YOUR' George Smith ... :D ... Clara Miller may have been an aged widow that Geo married for her money and no children were born to them .. or she may have been say 16 and therefore had 18 children over the course of the next thirty years or so... That extracted IGI record doesn't give the ages of the couple. Sorry, but in my humble opinion the surname of SMITH definitely means you will need to dig deeper and spend some pennies on certificates rather than relying on several census records before even considering Clara Miller was your Geo's wife...
Some positive thoughts :
Have you checked out the pilot site http://pilot.familysearch.org/recordsearch/start.html#start and also these births and the marriage would have been registered so have you checked this link http://freebmd.rootsweb.com/ ... (you can get the GRO references on that link)
Have you any of the birth certificates for the children .. perhaps say Alonzo ... hopefully as this is not a popular name he may be easier to trace.
Have you looked for Medal Cards for the sons ... tespecially the younger ones .. they were the right age to have served in WW1 ...
Have you asked for a Scavengr Hunt here at RChat? Here's the link for that http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,358572.0.html May I suggest you send a PM to have your hunt reserved for you, there's some very experienced RChatters who regularly help other RChatters to break some brickwalls... ;D ;D
Others may have more ideas, I'm NSW Australia based, so my understanding of UK records is not as reliable as the UK Rchatters..
Good Luck, I've a couple of SMITHS in my tree ;)
Cheers, JM
-
Very sensible advice from majm. If you look on www.freebmd.org.uk for marriages of a George Smith to a Clara there are several across the right time frame and in the right area. You cannot be sure about her surname until you have a child's birth certificate. It will cost a bit but going off on the wrong line will cost much more in the long run. There are several Alonzo Smiths too so it might be worth contacting the local register office to check which one has a father named George with the right occupation.
Andrea
-
i was going to advise to get the birth certificate of a child to confirm mmn. but it seems other people have already beaten me to it!
if you can find George on the 1911 census this will tell you how many children he has altogether and how many are surviving and who he was married to (i.e. his wifes name) and for how long
but i am not sure if he was married for a second time or more if the census says how many children from this union or in total or if it will say how many children the wife has as opposed to George himself :-\
-
In my and my husband's trees no woman has given birth after the age of 43, so the number of children they have is dependent on how young/old they are when they marry.
-
if you can find George on the 1911 census this will tell you how many children he has altogether and how many are surviving and who he was married to (i.e. his wifes name) and for how long
That's a great idea Toni ;)
Although it'll only tell you how many children born to the current marriage -it will help enormously ;D
Sorry we can't do look ups of the 1911 though.
Carol
-
1 possible marriage:
George Smith = Clara Witton/23/10/1870/St.Peter's & St.Paul's Aston
GRO ref:Dec.1870/Aston/6D/402
1 Claud Smith birth:
GRO ref:March 1880/Aston/6D/432
His middle name is given as Dalman which may be significant.
1871 cen.RG10/3157/43/33/Aston Manor.
151 Park Lane
George Smith/19/jeweller's assistant
Clara Smith/18/cartridge cutter
both born B'ham
jim
-
Hmm possible ,but after looking at the latest census I think you need to be looking a few years later than that ;)
Carol
-
Just added the 1871 census.If Frederick was born 1871 why later?
jim
-
Okay Jim,I take that back LOL ;D
Dad must have forgotten how long he'd ben married !
I agree with you that must be them in 1871- although he's a labourer by 1881,and she must have been just about to give birth to the first one on the list in 1881 - 10 year old Fred.
Possibly a short pregnancy ,if they only just married in Oct 1870 ;)
Carol
-
this is the 1881 census
RG11; 3043; 109; 22;
it gives George as aged both aged 28 thus making them born 1853 or thereabouts
if Clara gave birth to Fred in 1871 she would be just about 18 this would give her scope of a maximum 30 more years to have children and if she had one a year (not including multiple births) she could in theory have 30 children
-
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church_of_SS_Peter_%26_Paul,_Aston
for info.
:)
-
His middle name is given as Dolman which may be significant.
Dalman or Dolman ???
-
yes you're right it's Dalman.
jim
-
There's some nice pictures of the church & alter here as well.As they lived in Aston Manor all their lives I should think they walked this many times at Christenings.
http://www.astonbrook-through-astonmanor.co.uk/parishchurch
jim
-
Wow thanks everyone for all the replies! You are definately right that with a name like Smith I will need to invest in some certificates. I have the marriage certificate for Alonzo's son John and that made me want to investigate the Smith family further.
The 1871 census that you are mentioning, are we concluding that this is the same George and Clara as the 1881, 1891 census records I found?
Also the marriage to Clara Witton that Jim1 found, is this more likely than the marriage to Clara Miller that I found? It would be interesting to see what year both these women were born to determine which one was more capable of having 18 children!
How do we explain George havin a wife named Leah in 1901? Could this still be Clara? Perhaps using a middle name? Or must it be a second marriage?
I had a look on the 1911 census and these are the only 4 George Smith's I found around the same age as my George living in Birmingham;
George 1 - aged 60 married to a woman called Eliza Maria 43 and had only been married for 1 year.
George 2- aged 60, widower working as a bedstead caster. Living as a lodger to Mary Baker, aged 71 widow born in London. She has living with her a daughther Rosina Hopson, her husband William Hopson and their children, Rosina Hopson aged 6 and William Hopson aged 1.
George 3 - aged 59 married to Sarah Jane Smith for 35 years. Working as a beerhouse keeper. Have 3 duaghters, Lily, May and Alice. Can rule this one out.
George 4 - listed as George Charles Smith, aged 59, single. Living with widowed sister Mary Ann Phillips aged 64 and her 2 children Reginald George and Annie Louise.
So unless George 2 or George 2 are my George it looked like her died before 1911.
I searched for Clara in 1911 and came up with 2.
Clara 1 - aged 61, widowed living in Aston. Living with 5 children, all in their thirties or late twenties - none of the names match my Clara's children.
Clara 2 - aged 60, single. Occupation 'private means'. Living with single sister Mary Ann Smith.
So it looks like there is no Clara in 1911 either, unless George had died and she had remarried.
I tried one last serach of the 1911 census for any of their younger children.
I found 1 Bertie Smith who would have been born in 1903, mine was born in about 1900 as he appears in the 1901 census. I'm guessing Bertie could be short for Albert and as the child go older he was called by his proper name, either that or he didn't make it to 1911.
I found 3 Leonard Smith's born in Aston around 1895.
Leonard 1 - born 1896 in Aston
Leonard 2 - born 1896 in Aston
Leonard 3 - born 1898 in Aston
I decided to focus on Leonard 1 and 2 and this is what I found.
Leonard 1 - parents are Harry and Minnie Smith so cannot be my Leonard.
Leonard 2 - parents are Henry and Anna Smith so cannot be my Leonard.
Frustrating!!
-
How do we explain George havin a wife named Leah in 1901? Could this still be Clara? Perhaps using a middle name? Or must it be a second marriage?
I think that was just a case of the enumerator getting his knickers in a twist when copying out so many names- the eldest daughter was called Leah and he just copied the name across wrongly.If we ever got the chance to view the householders copies of the census forms I bet George had actually completed it(or maybe he got confused too LOL!!) correctly.
Carol
-
You're right, I can't see George marrying again.
Also my message above about the 1911 census has now been cleared up as the family have been found in 1911. So it looks like George and Clara were still alive in 1911 with a 19th child, George born in 1905! Looks like Clara had had enough by 1905 and stopped having children after this.
George is listed in this census as being born in Bedfordshire again so it looks most likely that this was his place of birth. George G Smith born 1852, Clara C Smith born 1854. I'm confused as to why they have 2 daughters called Leah, must be a typo.
-
Also in 1911 they were married for 34 years so we are looking for a marriage around 1877 now.
-
I have found an 1878 marriage in Stourbidge of a George Richard Smith. Others on page are Clara Arnold, Harriot Anne Harrison and Arthur Wright.
If it was George who married Clara could this be the marriage?
-
There's no mariage listed around 1877 for this couple so he may have got that wrong also.
I would suggest getting Claud's birth cert. as there is only one of this name b.c.1880,he's also registered in Aston so must be the right one,then you can verify the mother's name.Clara Witton was born 1854 to James & Susanna.I'm not convinced the last 2/3 children are actually theirs,she would have been in her late 40's - early 50's at the time.Maybe they belong to the older daughters.
jim
-
Could be. Although most of the daughters are still living with George and Clara in 1911 and all are listed as single.
-
Yes I wondered about the later few being illegitimate grandchildren- maybe they thought of them all as theirs.Or they needed to coevr up whose kids they really were?A bit like some people consider all distant rellies to be 'cousins'.
Possibly one was called Leah and another had it as her middle name.
I have trouble remembering which name to cal my grandchildren and there's only 3 of them.My mother in law had 4 kdis and called them all 'Flugey'(she was Irish ;D ) when she couldn't think which name she wanted.
Carol
-
We I have worked out that the other Leah in 1911 is really Polly as her birth year matches. I was also wondering whether the marriage of 1877 could also be a mistake. They had their first child in 1871, could this be a typo too? On the original census that George would have filled in did he have to write the year they married or how many years they were married for? If he had to write the year it could have been 1871 and got misread as 1877.
-
On the 1911 census under his wife's name he had to write the number of years married and if he's put 34 then that takes us back to 1877- but of course after so many kids and all that time,he could well have forgotten when he married.Not sure my hubby knows we've nearly reached 38 ;D
You really could do with getting at least one birth cert to find out mum's maiden name,then you'd hopefully be able to find their marriage.
Would be funny if they never did marry after all those kids :o
Carol
-
Well if they did marry in 1877 as he claims then some of their children are illegitimate! I shall order the birth certificate for Alonzo as he is the line I descend from.
I'm still not having luck with any birth, marriage or death records for the other children.
-
I see you're in the West Midlands- you need to get across to the record office/central library and do some parish look ups....all free !!
http://www.rootschat.com/links/0a7r/
Carol
-
FREE? I thought you had to pay to look at records? I've never been to a records office before, I wouldn't really know where to start!
-
I had a look on the 1911 census and these are the only 4 George Smith's I found around the same age as my George living in Birmingham;
George 1 - aged 60 married to a woman called Eliza Maria 43 and had only been married for 1 year.
George 2- aged 60, widower working as a bedstead caster. Living as a lodger to Mary Baker, aged 71 widow born in London. She has living with her a daughther Rosina Hopson, her husband William Hopson and their children, Rosina Hopson aged 6 and William Hopson aged 1.
George 3 - aged 59 married to Sarah Jane Smith for 35 years. Working as a beerhouse keeper. Have 3 duaghters, Lily, May and Alice. Can rule this one out.
George 4 - listed as George Charles Smith, aged 59, single. Living with widowed sister Mary Ann Phillips aged 64 and her 2 children Reginald George and Annie Louise.
So unless George 2 or George 2 are my George it looked like her died before 1911.
I searched for Clara in 1911 and came up with 2.
Clara 1 - aged 61, widowed living in Aston. Living with 5 children, all in their thirties or late twenties - none of the names match my Clara's children.
Clara 2 - aged 60, single. Occupation 'private means'. Living with single sister Mary Ann Smith.
So it looks like there is no Clara in 1911 either, unless George had died and she had remarried.
I tried one last serach of the 1911 census for any of their younger children.
Try looking for 30 year old Leah and the fact that they are still in Aston ;D
Carol
-
FREE? I thought you had to pay to look at records? I've never been to a records office before, I wouldn't really know where to start!
People are very helpful- you usually look at the records( Baptisms or Marriages) on film or microfiches. We've all had to start somewhere,and the archivists know that ;D
Have a look at that website that I mentioned- they even have someone you can email for help....and he'd be a local person and able to help you more.
You will also find that libraries and record offices usually have Ancestry librray edition to view there free of charge too.
I went down to Hounslow for mine last Monday- turns out they'd indexed all the relevant records for the time period I wanted....easy peasy lemon squeezy ;D ;D ;D
And it's all free 8)
Carol
-
I have a year subscription to Ancestry.co.uk so I can search births, marriages, deaths etc (although I often get stuck, hence asking for help on this site). What would I find in a records office that I can't find on Ancestry?
I tried looking for Claud Smith in 1911, I though unusual name would definately yield a result. Nothing!
-
If you have Ancestry,then have you found Alonzo's 31 pages of WW1 service records?
Try Claude with an E .
Carol
-
Oooh hadn't looked for the WW1 records yet but I shall give that a look. Alonzo is a big of a family enigma. He appears on his son's marriage certificate as John Smith!!
-
FREE? I thought you had to pay to look at records? I've never been to a records office before, I wouldn't really know where to start!
Once upon a time I had never been to any archives offices to look up their records (for free)... I phoned ahead, and explained that I was new and wanted their advice as to what to bring with me, what to expect, and etc.
So, here's my suggestions
1) do a hand written quick three generation tree, with George SMITH at the second generation (ie leaving room to put names for his and Clara's parents IN PENCIL) and all their 18 children at the third generation TRY to fit this onto ONE A4 page, possibly in landscape.
2. on the reverse side of that sheet, write down the main questions you are seeking immediate answers to ... leaving space for you to put pencil answers
3. On a separate A4 sheet, in chronological order, write down the various census reference numbers and under each of those headings the brief outline of the info there
4. Set yourself ONE main goal and keep that in mind when you approach the recepetion/info desk at the records office
5. SMILE and explain you are new, and you would like help PLEASE (DON'T ramble on about the details of the names of the family, just that you would like guidance as to the procedures and the HOW TO please)
6. Follow the explanations, and if they are going to fast, do interupt and say I am not sure if I am following you, please could you go over that again.
7. Take your digital camera (of course after asking on the phone if that is OK) and use it .. sometimes in NSW you can even take your laptop and download directly, or at least download your photos to check if its clear
8. Take a steno notebook, couple of pencils and an eraser. Top of each page put the current date that you are at the records office AND record every reference number for anything you find at that records office ... their reference number as well as any external institutions reference numbers
9. Take a packed lunch, tissues, aetc in case you end up there ALL day, and ONLY touch your packed lunch in a common room where there are NO archive records ...
10... ENJOY cause its great to get to original records
Cheers, JM
-
George is listed in this census as being born in Bedfordshire again so it looks most likely that this was his place of birth. George G Smith born 1852, Clara C Smith born 1854. I'm confused as to why they have 2 daughters called Leah, must be a typo.
You're quite right about it being a Typo- a transcription error in fact.
Leah is the oldest at 30,the next one is 27 year old Beatrice.
I have informed them of the error.
Carol
-
Re What you would find at a Records Office v Online
1. around 99% of records are in the custody of local records offices, and thus are not online with Ancestry, which has lots of indexes and some images from those indexes. This also applies to other subscription sites.
For example in NSW I can access in person
a) what we refer to as Probate packets ... the actual court records for deceased estates (of course with recent ones there's at least a 30 year closure period).
b) land titles
c) maps
d) diaries
e) correspondence between individuals/corporations and the Government (very handy when researching 19thC citizens in NSW)
f) admissions to orphanages, hospitals, asylums (if over 110 years ago)
g) photos/negatives taken by government agencies that have not yet been fully indexed (handy if you know a relative was a photographer in the late 1800's)
h) AND LOTS LOTS MORE
If you go to family history groups archives, you can usually get access to other people's research with their references ... sometimes (many times) these are much better researched than the submitted trees available online and include family stories, including for example inter-family relationships that are not shown on submitted online trees ... Many times within my own family I have found cousins were godparents to the following generation, but that's NOTeasily shown online ... or for example I have some double first cousins (two lads who were brothers married two girls who were sisters ... thus these two couples children share four grandparents, and do not have the usual eight grandparents between two families) ..
Oh dear, I am rambling ...
Cheers, GO FOR IT , get out and visit the real deal records ... Its the bestest
Cheers, JM
-
I just might have to do that JM, might even make a day of it! :)
Carol, I thought the 'other' Leah in the 1911 census was actually Polly?
-
Just looked at Alonzo's ww1 records and his mother was definately called Clara. I can't read the father's name as it is far too faint but it looks like it begins with a G so I am definately on the right lines with Clara and George. I still need to get Alonzo's birth certificate though to confirm Clara's maiden name.
-
The records are held at B'ham Central Library (see Carol's link).Take the escalator to the 6th. floor.The Parish you need is St.Peter's & St.Paul's.
Ancestry isn't relevant as it only gives the GRO.ref. if you want to order a cert.
The PR's will give father's name & occupation,mother's maiden name & address.You can search for all of the children & plot the family's progress through the births,you can also do this for the marriages as well as long as you have the Parish name.
Plan ahead,arm youself with all the info. you need to make searching easier.Get all the info. you can from the event especially marriages(witness names).
Get there early,they open at 9am.
jim
-
I see what you mean about marriage witnesses. I searched for a year for a mother of an ancestor only to find that the son had her as a witness to his marriage and I'd had the certificate the whole time!
I will definately give the records office a try. I'm worried I will be a bit like a kid in a sweet shop!
-
Yes it's easy to get distracted.get as many possible dates & parishes for the family as you can find(IGI),prioritise,get the most important first,in your case,Alonzo's birth then parent's marriage & work down your list.
I've had a look at Alonzo's records & it states he was 5' 91/2" which is tall for this time as the average was 5'5".
It also states he had his right foot & 3 fingers on his right hand amputated from gunshot wounds,poor chap.
jim
-
Yeah it sounds like the poor man had a tough time. I wonder why in his WW1 records he only claims to have 2 children, 2 daughters, when I know he had a third child, a son in 1915. Maybe this child was not his, as he went to war in 1914. Or maybe he believed the son wasn't his.
Funny how this son, John Alfred listed his father as John Smith and not Alonzo Smith on his marriage certificate in 1938. But Alonzo was definately the father, as a witness to the marriage was a Platford and we knew his mother's name was Florence Susannah Platford. I searched for a marriage and Florence Susannah Platford married Alonzo Smith, not a John Smith.
She did however in 1942 marry another man, John Alfred Whitehouse. Could it be that John Alfred Whitehouse is the father of John Alfred Smith? If so Florence was playing away from home while her husband was at war, had a son and then continued the affair when he returned.
Possibilities are endless!
-
according to his sheet he joined Sept. 1914 but didn't embark until 1917,it doesn't state he was anywhere else in the UK up to that time so he was in England at least during the time John was born.As you point out he only lists his 2 daughters in 1918 so John must belong to someone else.
Just because a Platford was a witness doesn't mean he's the son of Alonzo,being brought up in the family he would view the Platfords as relatives.
jim
Edit:The Platford's would be relatives if his mother was one..doh!
Do you have his birth cert?
Did Alonzo continue to live with her after the war?
-
Also in 1911 they were married for 34 years so we are looking for a marriage around 1877 now.
did it tell you how many children they had had and how many were still living ?
-
In 1911 they have 6 of their daughters living with them and 4 of their sons.
Well John Alfred's mother was definately Platford as it states on his birth record. My family remember her name was Florence Susannah and there are only 2 marriages I can find for her.
One to Alonzo Smith and the other in 1942 to John A Whitehouse. I guess I will know more when I receive John's birth certificate!
-
Plus, if Alonzo was not the father of John Alfred Smith, why give him the surname smith?
-
there is a column on the 1911 census which states children born to this marriage (or something like that) and how many are surviving they may not necessarily be living with them :)
ps a child is assumed that to be of the husband of a married woman whether this is the case or not therefore he need not be present when the birth was registered , she may have chosen to inform the registrar of his actual father but he would have had to be present for his name to put on the birth cert.
-
11 born alive, 10 living, 1 died ;)
Jool
-
hmmmmmm :-\
-
I think George & Clara were confused and thought the enumerator only wanted details of children still living with them (10). We know there is at least another one not with them, Alonzo
Jool
-
wonder who was the one who died
-
Just had another look, the column I mentioned above was completed in the emumerator's handwriting, so I would have thought he would have made it clear what information he required ... now i'm confused. Are we sure this is the right George & Clara, parents of Alonzo?
Jool
-
i may be off track here but where is Gertrude in 1901 ?
there is a Gertrude M Smith aged 22 b. Birmingham niece of John Miller here in 1901 RG13; 2836; 158; : 13.
here is your quote from page 1
I have in my family tree GEORGE SMITH (1851-?) born in Leominster, Hereford. I know that he married CLARA MILLER (1851-?) born in Birmingham. (Miller is a guess for a surname, as I found a marriage on IGI for a George Smith marrying a Clara in Birmingham around the year their first child was born). They married on 11 Aug 1872.
-
If you add up all the kids from every census-there are far more than 11.
Gertude is listed as Gertie on one of the censuses,but I can't recall which.
What a shame that the B/Ham parish records are not all online like the London ones- we could have those 18 kids done and dusted in no time.
That's presuming they had time to get them all baptised.
Imagine having to think of enough names,I bet not many had middle names ;D
It should be a doddle at the record office,every child with the surname Smith child of George and Clara will be the right one,over a period of nearly 30 years..
Carol
-
Leah's birth and baptism is on the IGI !
Born 8 March 1877 (good day to be born ;D)
Baptised 06 APR 1897 St Peter And St Paul,Aston Warwick
Parents George and Clara Smith.
Carol
-
Alonzo is not with his parents in 1911 as he is with his own family. Wife Florence, and 2 daughters.
I am confused, in the 1911 census for George and Clara, which of the children they listed are still alive? I thought they had to list all the children living with them?
So far from the 1881, 1891, 1901 and 1911 census records it appears in total they had 19 children.
-
Leah was baptised aged 20?
-
Leah's birth and baptism is on the IGI !
Born 8 March 1877 (good day to be born ;D)
Baptised 06 APR 1897 St Peter And St Paul,Aston Warwick
Parents George and Clara Smith.
Carol
has that got a batch number ? is it extracted or submitted ?
-
i wonder if they planned on having so many children !
it would have helped if they started to name children alphabetically ;D
-
C019133 and extracted Toni.
Yes she was indeed baptised as an adult.......mmm interesting as it sort of suggests she wasn't done at birth DOH.
Maybe she married a catholic? And needed to be baptised?
Carol
-
Littleem
The question asked in 1911(the first time they asked it) was ,and this was actually aimed at the wife.... " how many years have you been married and how many children of this marriage were born alive and how many of them still alive"
Because hubby tended to fill the form in it is likely in a lot of cases that he gave the info. Some people obviously misunderstood the question.
The IGI has 3 possible George Smith/ Clara marriages circa 1875 +/- 5 years.
Maybe we should try and follow each Clara back to the previous census to rule her in or out.
Carol
-
Possible. I don't think birth control was very well practised back in those days. Plus considering the times they lived in, maybe they thought there was a chance many of their children would die...but they didn't!
Speaking of death ( a little morbid but hey it's nearly halloween), I wonder if there were any other children they had that died at birth or inbetween census records.
-
Good idea Carol that would definately help.
So on the 1911 census did George simply state how many children were living with him, or did he state how many of his children were still alive? If the later then he failed to mention Alonzo who clearly was still living in 1911.
-
Leonard Smith
Baptism/Christening Date 02 Oct 1896
Baptism/Christening Place St. Peter and St. Paul, Aston, Warwick, England
Parents George and Clara Smith
-
What do we think of the child Elvie? Seems like an unusual name. Could this be a typo for Elsie?
-
There is also a 4 year gap between the births of Polly 1873 and Leah 1877, a 5 year gap between births of Leonard and Bertie and another 5 year gap between Bertie and George. Could be more children inbetween. The fact that Leah was baptised as an adult could indicate that none of the children were baptised as infants. Thus there could be more Smith children out there that could be George and Clara's that will be harder to pove without a baptism confirming mother and father's names.
-
In addition to Leonard and Leah's baptism there are others who have eben baptised. Use the advanced search on https://beta.familysearch.org/ and put in parents George and Clara.
Even better go and look up the actual images for yourself -it's very exciting when you find the first one!
Carol
-
The more I look at it the more I think Clara Witton is a better choice than Clara Miller. The Clara Miller marriage was 1872 in Birmingham and my George and Clara had already had a child in 1871. The Clara Witton marriage was 1870 in Aston, where the family lived throughout the census records. Seems to be more likely, but then I suppose this still doesn't explain why George in 1911 claimed they had been married for 34 years. That would put their marriage at around 1877. Why have so many illegitimate children before marrying?
-
Great idea Carol - I have found the baptisms for George, Leah, Beatrice, Bertie and Florence so far!
-
It looks like Clara Witton may well be correct-she is on the 1861 with her family (mistranscribed as Wetton,but someone's corrected it)
In Aston on RG9/2178 Folio 105 Page 28 born in 1854- which fits with Clara Smith on later censuses.
Carol
-
Good find Carol. I am convinced it is Clara Witton, although again how do we explain away the fact that in 1911 they claim to have been married for only 34 years? I have tried to search for a marriage around 1877 for a George and Clara Smith but haven't come up with anything yet.
-
Had a look at the Witton's the other day & in 1871 they were living in Upper Thomas St.The Smiths were living in Park Lane.Upper Thomas St. is off Park Lane.
jim
-
Looks like Clara Witton is the most likely one then!
-
Looks very possible doesn't it ,but please don't take it as a definite until you have seen at least one of the kids birth certs or the marriage cert itself(all at Birmingham Library and Record office as explained before).
So many people on here go off on the wrong line without checking and double checking first ;D
Carol
-
not disputing Clara Witton but
George Smith and your Clara had a daughter Gertrude
in 1901 there is a Gertrude M Smith living with uncle John Miller (RG13 2836 158 13)
she is the same age as your Gertrude
is it coincidence that George Smith and Clara nee Miller had a daughter Gertrude in the same year as your George & Clara ??
-
i think this is your Fred here in 1901 RG13; 3279; 97; 7.
my reason for thinking this is in 1881 there are only 2 Fred Smiths b. 1871 B.ham your one and one the son of Edward & Harriett (who is listed as Frederick in 1871)
in 1901 there is a Fredrick Smith b. B.ham in Kirkdale Lancs a brick setter
also in 1901 there is a Fred C Smith which in 1891 is with his parents Henry & Mary under the name of Frederick
there is a Frederick Smith b. 1871 B.ham in 1871 Kings Norton the son of James & Mary A
in 1891 we have 2 Frederick Smiths Frederick H Smith a baker and Frederick a boarder to Mary Smith widow he is a groom
-
Good spot Toni! I was also interested to see what you entioned about Clara Miller. Could be her after all maybe! I have ordered the birth certificate for John Alfred Smith, Alonzo's son just to double check I have the correct parents. If so, I shall order Alonzo's certificate to confirm his parents and solve the Clara mystery! It's a close call between Clara Witton and Clara Miller. At this stage I don't know who I'd put my money on!
-
Wouldn't it be frustrating if it was someone else. ;D
jim
-
Haha after all the time spent on this yeah it would! Well I have up to 16 working days to wait! It will be such an agonizing wait!
-
Wouldn't it be frustrating if it was someone else. ;D
jim
Yes it would be very frustrating but hopefully I have managed to rule the other ones out! I would say 90% sure or maybe 80%
-
I have ordered the birth certificate for John Alfred Smith, Alonzo's son just to double check I have the correct parents.
Toni I think what Jim is referring to is the fact that Emma isn't even 100% certain that Alonzo IS the right John Alfred Smith's dad 8)
Fingers crossed everyone ;)
Carol
-
oh :-[ ;D
-
I am 99% sure that Alonzo is John Alfred's father. My family knew that John's mother's name was Florence Susannah and we knew she later married a man surnamed Whitehouse. We also knew there was a Norfolk connection.
I ordered John Alfred's marriage certificate and found he had listed his father as John Smith. I searched in vain for a John Smith who married a Florence or Florence Susannah and came up with too many hits for both marriages in Birmingham nd Norfolk. I returned to the marriage certificate and found that a witness to the marriage was an A Platford. So I thought I would try this as a possible relative of Florence Susannah. Low and behold I found a Florence Susannah Platford who married an Alonzo Smith. Then a Florence Susannah Smith married a John Whitehouse. Looking at census records showed that Alonzo's wife Florence Susannah was born in Norfolk.
Too much of a coincidence I think! They have to be the right parents. The only thing that is throwing me is that John Alfred listed his father as John Smith on his marriage certificate (although I have to say there is a history of name changing with the Smith family in later generations!). Also the fact that in Alonzo's WW1 record he claims to have 2 daughters and doesn't mention his son. It could be that John Alfred wasn't born when the document was written.
-
Alonzo enlisted at Birmingham on 12th Sept 1914,so at that stage he did only have two kids- John wasn't born till 1915 ;D
Carol
-
Yes I had a feeling the WW1 document was written prior to 1915. I wonder whether Alonzo later changed his name to John? It seems odd that John Alfred would not name his real father on the marriage certificate. But like I say, the Smith side of the family are a bit...odd!
-
I wonder when Alonzo died? When Florence Susannah married again in 1942 and her son John Alfred had his own children, the children always called John Whitehouse grandad but always knew he wasn't their real grandad. Apparently Florence used to also continue to use the name Smith in certain documents. It's unclear whether Florence simply left Alonzo or whether Alonzo had already died.
-
The service document where he lists his 2 daughters was penned in 1918 not 1914,I thought maybe the info. was transferred from an earlier document by an office wallah & he just signed it.
jim
-
a couple of possible deaths
Deaths Mar 1925
Smith Alonzo T aged 43 Basford 7b 233
Deaths Mar 1948
Smith Alonzo H aged 69 Plymouth 7a 620
???
-
I believe by that time he could have changed his name to John so it will be much harder finding a death for him.
-
Yes I wondered about that. After WW1 having a foreign sounding name like Alonzo may have been difficult for him and all his mates may have called him John anyway to make things easier.
-
i guess it would depend on who regsitred his death if they knew him to be Alonzo or John and also if they knew his birthdate too :)
-
You could lash out a fiver on this:
http://www.midlandshistoricaldata.org/
The B'ham Electoral Rolls will tell you where everyone was & if Alonzo was still calling himself that.Assuming they were in B'ham that is.
jim
-
Yes I've considered the electoral roll. To be honest I wouldn't really know how ti use them, I'm not familiar with those documents.
-
You just look up the address at the time you last heard of someone living there and it will tell you the name of all those over 21 (the age of voting back then) living there- you can then follow through the years and when someone stops appearing in the lists they have often died,or depending on their age,got married.
Easier to do at a record office as it's free - but more complicated if you have to travel miles to get there.The website that Jim has suggested looks great,even if it is pay per view?
Carol
-
Yes this is the website I looked at. So if I was looking for Alonzo I would need to know what address he was living at to find him?
-
you don't need an address you just put Alonzo Smith in the 1st. search box & covering years 1912-55.
-
I think I'm going to try this out. It must be the best way to track a person and try and identify what year they must have died.
-
The certificate has arrived!!!
The parents of John Alfred Smith are John Alfred Smith and Florence Susanna Platford.
Now I know that the only Florence Susanna from Norfolk who married a Smith is the one who married Alonzo Smith.
It looks like Alonzo changed his name in 1915, or if he didn't register the child (as he would have been fighting in WW1) Florence probably thought it would be too delicate to write the name Alonzo on a birth certificate as it is a very forgein or German sounding name.
Either she put him on the certificate as John Alfred Smith and he later used this name, or he had changed his name in 1915 and the certificate is accurate.
We were on the right track!
Right now it's time to find Alonzo aka John's parents.
-
brilliant news :)
-
do you have Alonzos marriage certificate ?
-
No not yet, that will be my next port of call.
-
Now we can start taking bets on whether Alonzo married Clara Witton or Clara Miller. I will order Alonzo's birth certificate to find out!
-
you mean George married Clara or Clara! i dont think at this stage you need his marriage certificate just the birth cert.!
-
Yes you're right. I am getting far too excited!
-
Out of interest what are the cert. details,father's occupation,address etc.
jim
-
What do we think of the child Elvie? Seems like an unusual name. Could this be a typo for Elsie?
Elvie could well be correct; my mum's friend was an Elvie, born 1925 ish
Cheers, Alison :)
-
The father's occupation is listed as 'a timber merchants carter'. The family are living in Lennox Street, Birmingham.
-
Could this be Alonzo's birth registration? There is another Alonzo Smith registered in 1885 but my Alonzo was born in about 1881 so this birth record looks more credible. I want to be absolutely sure before I buy the birth certificate.
Alonzo Smith
Year of Registration: 1882
Quarter of Registration: Apr-May-Jun
District: Aston (1837-1924)
County: Warwickshire
Volume: 6d
Page: 407
-
I think that's your Alonzo as the date is right,also St.Peter's & St.Paul's is in Aston,the other Alonzo is registered in B'ham.you could get Claud's (1880) as there's only one of those.
jim
-
Right I have ordered the birth certifiacte for Alonzo. Can't wait to find out which Clara is the mother!
-
what happens if you get the incorrect Alonzo and his mother just happens to be Clara? It isn't impossible and have knwo this type of error occur- where you think as all the names mathc you have the correct certificate and wth a name like Smith there will be plenty of chances for this to happen...be careful
-
i am waiting for the postman to arrive at littleem1906 house ;D
-
So am I Toni ;)
Hopefully the address will be familiar to her and so solve the mystery ;D
Carol
-
While you're waiting wouldn't like to have a go at my brickwall would ya? ;D
jim
-
It's a bit too cold out there to get the old bulldozer out Jim ;D ;D ;D
-
When we've sorted out Littleem I might just put it up to get you all going.
jim
-
pop it up Jim and give us the link :)
-
Has the cert. arrived yet?
jim
-
Not yet! sigh! I have until Tuesday for it to arrive. The wait has been agonising :(
-
FINALLY!!!!!!!!!!! the wait is over, certificate arrived!
Alonzo Smith's parents are George Smith and Clara Witton! :)
-
did we say that i've forgotten ;) ;D
do you need us to look for something else ?
-
We did say that! :)
Well harping back to my first message, I'm still stuck on the children of George and Clara, birth for Clara, and deaths for George and Clara.
George's father's name could be Edward (I think this must have come from a christening record I found at some point or could be from Ancestry and be completely wrong!) Anything on this would be good so I can begin to trace back furthur!
I must take this opportunity to thank everyone who has helped me thus far! ;D
-
well this is the marriage of Alonzos parents which will obviously tell you fathers name if not illegitimate
Marriages Dec 1870 Aston 6d 402
COLE John
Smith George
WITTON Clara
WOOLLEY Emma
and hopefully their ages will be actual ages and not full
the witnesses may be relatives .
-
1 possible marriage:
George Smith = Clara Witton/23/10/1870/St.Peter's & St.Paul's Aston
GRO ref:Dec.1870/Aston/6D/402
1 Claud Smith birth:
GRO ref:March 1880/Aston/6D/432
His middle name is given as Dalman which may be significant.
1871 cen.RG10/3157/43/33/Aston Manor.
151 Park Lane
George Smith/19/jeweller's assistant
Clara Smith/18/cartridge cutter
both born B'ham
jim
Yep Jim was the first one to suggest Clara Witton ;D
Carol
-
this seems to be Clara in 1861
RG9; 2178; : 105; 28
full details to follow
-
this seems to be Clara in 1861
RG9; 2178; : 105; 28
full details to follow
transcribed as Wetton
address hard to make out ! (sorry) 2 est 1 house do.
James Wetton 46 head tailor
Susanna 46 wife b. kent woolwich
Charles 20 son pearl ornament maker
Alfred 18 son gun .........
Agnes 16 dau. linen button maker
Elizabeth 10 dau. scholar
Clara 7 dau. do.
all born Birmingham except Susanna
-
this would be Claras birth
Births Mar 1854
Witton Clara Alice Birmingham 6d 156
-
i think with a name like Smith you need to work back from the marriage cert to find George father and hopefully locate him on the census pre marriage however i not in 1891 he says he was born Leominster not Birmingham :-\
i have found these 2 possible births for him
Births Sep 1852
Smith George Leominster 6a 448
Births Dec 1852
Smith George Leominster 6a 457
-
Toni's missing info.
2Ct. 1 House Proctor St.In other words they lived in the first house in Court no.2 which would be a bak-to-back.
Gun screwer.
Marriage:James Witton=Susanna Webb/26/12/1837/St.Phillips/B'ham
GRO.ref:Dec/1837/B'ham/16/387
Fathers:Charles Witton & Joseph Webb.
The Witton & Webb families are well represented on the census & IGI,let us know if you need any more help.
jim
-
Toni's Leominster birth looks like the offspring of George Smith & Hannah Poulton who are all still in Leominster at least to 1871 where George is aged 20.
George & Clara's marriage is required.
jim
-
yes absolutely agree we need the marriage cert especially with a name like Smith