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Research in Other Countries => United States of America => Topic started by: Canterburynorth on Saturday 30 October 10 07:30 BST (UK)
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Hello all,
Today I was told a family story. Sidney(Sydney) Smith was born in 1882 New Zealand. I am told he went to America, but have no idea when. Also that he drowned when a ship he was on from America to Canada hit an iceberg :'(
Is there anyway I would be able to find his year of death with such scant information, I haven't a clue whereabouts in America he was.
Any ideas would be gratefully recieved.
Kind regards
Leandra
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Hi Leandra:
Would you know his father's name, please?
There is a border crossing in 1908 for a Sydney Smith, age 26, born New Zealand. He was born in Featherston(?). His father's name was W. J. Smith, East ?, New Zealand.
Correction: His last place of residence was Featherson. He was born in Oxford, NZ.
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Oh Lisa thats him!!! I don't believe it
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:)
I'll add more information from that record in a moment.
Border Crossing: Canada to the U.S.
Arriving January 1908
Sydney Smith, age 26, male, single.
Calling/Occupation: "In transit"
He could read and write, his nationality was "New Zealand", race/people: England, last permanent residence was Featherston, New Zealand.
Name/address of nearest relative whence alien came: Father, W.J. Smith, East Oxford, New Zealand.
Final Destination: Canada, Atlic???/Atti_, BC? (British Columbia)
He paid his own passage and I believe he had $70.
He had been in the U.S. for one day in 1907, in Honolulu. Date of last departure from U.S. was October 18, 07.
Whether going to join relative/friend: Fr. Louis? Schultz?, ?, B.C.?
He was in good health.
5'8", med complexion, bro hair, gray eyes
Place of birth: Oxford, New Zealand
Seaport of landing: Vancouver, Oct 27, 07
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Oh thankyou, I am so amazed. :D
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You are quite welcome.
I am not finding anything else at the moment, but it is early yet.
(PS I added the sailing information to the previous post.)
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Lisa you are an absoloute star!!! I can't begin to thankyou, I thought I was asking the impossible.
I imagine he was so excited going on that journey. He obviously made it to Canada, I wonder if the story I was told was correct about the iceberg?
Kindest regards
Leandra
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Hi Leandra:
It is nice to "give back" after I have been helped so much.
I don't know too much about sailing, but I guess there's a chance that a ship could have hit ice or some other obstacle near Alaska. Or, perhaps he sailed near the east coast.
I am trying to find Louis Schultz, in case some clues may be found with him.
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Possibly a coincidence, but there was a Louis Schultz living in British Columbia in 1901:
http://www.rootschat.com/links/0a7o/
In 1911, there were several Schultzs living in Altin, BC. (I didn't see Louis, however.)
http://automatedgenealogy.com/index.html
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Hi Lisa,
The name Schultz is not one I have come across before, there must be a connection somewhere though. Is there a 1911 census? My computer is refusing to load the 1901 page. ::)
Would a foreigner like Sydney show up on a census?
At last its loaded, Louis and Sydney were of a similar age.
Regards
Leandra
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In order to view the 1901 census, try the second site mentioned (above).
Click on 1901 Census
Choose British Columbia
Surname: Schultz; Go
Find Louis Schultz, click on page 16
Choose Split Screen (upper, left of page)
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Foreigners would be included on the census.
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There are two "hits" for a Sydney Smith, born c1882, sailing in 1907, on the Canadian passenger list. I cannot view further details. Perhaps someone can let us know if one of them is your Sydney.
I cannot find anything further, at this point. It is getting late, if you don't mind, I better stop for tonight. I will have another look tomorrow for Sydney, when I've had a fresh start. Sorry to leave at this point.
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Before I go, I wasn't able to find anything helpful, but please do feel free to try your own searches on the following sites (in case I missed something):
http://search.bcarchives.gov.bc.ca/sn-50B82C/search
British Columbia Vital Records Index
http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi
Find A Grave
http://www.rootschat.com/links/0a7p/
California Newspaper Collection
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Thanks so much for your invaluable help, it is very much appreciated.
I will enjoy browsing the links :)
Kindest regards
Leandra
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I found 2 entries for the same sailing in 1907. There was a Sydney Smith who arrived Vancouver, BC on October 27, 1907 aboard the Miowera which sailed from Sydney, Australia. He was 25, single, born New Zealand, occupation Butcher and final destination was Vancouver.
From what I've read, Atlin, BC was a real hub of gold rush activity from about 1898. The population was 10,000 compared to the current 500!! It was accessible only by boat in the early 1900s so it is possible that there were marine accidents which claimed lives. If you google Atlin, BC you will find some history and some photos of the magnificent scenery!!
In addition to the BC archives site that Lisa gave you, you can search BC deaths at the pilot familysearch site. It gives a little more information than the BC Archives site (ie parents' names or spouse's name if included on the death registration). If you do find a death registration that you would like checked, I do look ups at my local FHS library and would be happy to give you a transcription of the document.
Susan
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Hi Susan,
Thanks for replying to my post, and for your very kind offer of lookups.
Its bedtime here in NZ for me so I will be back on the case bright and early in the morning... had a quick peek at at Atlin, very beautiful indeed.
Kindest regards
Leandra
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Bedtime for me too (after 2 am) but I think I found him on the 1911 Census in Atlin.
I couldn't get the split screen to load on the automated genealogy site but in the transcription portion, I did find an entry for a Sidney Smith, age 29. I then searched the census image for Sub-District 41 in Atlin on a subscription site and found the entry for a ? Smith, occupation Butcher, immigration year 1907. They have his birthplace transcribed as England but I think there are more letters to it and could possibly be N. Zealand. The image is barely legible in places, consequently the subscription site has no first name in the transcription.
Susan
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Icebergs are virtually unheard of in the North Pacific for a variety of reasons. But Atlin is far enough north that some of the protected Sounds in the area might have icebergs at some times of the year. It is too bad that the British Colonist newspaper online onlyruns thru 1910; they have excellent references to news reports throughout coastal BC.
Nick
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Hello all,
I can't find a death that matches Sydneys year of birth in BC, although the pilot search site tells me there are lots of matches but i can only see eight on the screen ??? Nothing that matches on the BC archives site, isn't it a wonderful resource. Many thanks to you all for the fantastic links you have given me, you are so very kind.
Regards
Leandra
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I don't think this has been mentioned:
http://homepages.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~maryc/bc.htm
British Columbia Marriages
Sydney Smith who was 29 years old and a butcher, Oxford, New Zealand, Atlin, son of William John Smith and Annie Holden, married Alma May Hanna who was age 26, Toronto, Atlin...married 5 November 1911, St. Andrews Presbyterian Church.
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Good find, Lisa. I was thinking about checking marriages when I was falling asleep....and totally forgot about it when I got up and about this morning!!
Susan
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Leandra
On the pilot family search site, if you have the banner across the top promoting the new beta site, close it and then you should have the capability of moving through all the pages....I get 8 pages of possibles when I search for Sydney Smith.
Susan
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Susan, I didn't even consider checking the 1911 for Sydney, so we are even. ;) Great find you made on the 1911!
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I think I may have found Alma Mae Hanna on the 1911.
A.M. Hanna is 25, single, born July 1885 in Ontario, and is a nurse at the hospital in Atlin.
She is enumerated with 2 other nurses and a physician.
Susan
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Listed on the same page as Sidney Smith (1911 census that Susan found) is an A.M. Hanna, born July 1885, Ontario.
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You beat me to it, Susan. ;)
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It looks like Alma's brother J Muray/Murray J was living in Juneau, Alaska in 1920. I cannot read his occupation.
I wonder if Sydney went up to Alaska?
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According to the WWI Draft Reg Card,
James Murray Hanna, born June 7, 1895, had a home address of Atlin, B.C. Residence is listed as Skagway, First Judicial District, Alaska
He was tall, medium build, hazel eyes, brown? hair.
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Wow, I don't know what to say, you two are so amazing!!
Its so exciting to hear that Sydney got married, the story of the iceberg may be totally wrong hopefully. Who knows maybe there was a rift with his family in NZ and that was the story they told.
Thanks also for the tip with pilotsearch, thats very helpful.
Thankyou so so much for everything you have found, I would never have found anything on my own.
Kindest regards
Leandra
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Hi Leandra:
It makes it easier when several people are working together to find facts. I have a feeling there is still more to find.
I will have to step away (on and off), but I will keep checking back here.
I'm glad we are able to help. :)
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Alma's brother, James Murray, married Emilie Matilda Brown in Atlin in 1917.
Maybe other information can be found, which might provide leads for Sydney?
http://search.bcarchives.gov.bc.ca/sn-50B82C/search
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There are marriages for (all in Atlin):
Lois Mary Hanna
Clarissa Hanna
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Thanks Lisa :) :)
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Alma's sister, Lois Mary, married Francis Joseph Henning. There is the passing of someone with the same name, about the same age, place of death was Coquitlam, BC.
It looks like Alma's mother was widowed by 1917 and married Thomas Walter White on 20 March 1917 in Atlin (Thomas was age 57).
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Clarissa Hanna is the daughter of James Onderkirk and Mary Parfitt; she's a 53-year-old widow when she married Thomas White in 1917.
On the 1911 there was a Rebecca Hanna, 47, nurse enumerated with Alma....wonder if Clarissa and Rebecca are one in the same?? Age would be right!!
Too bad births after 1903 are protected!!
Susan
Modified to add that Rebecca is shown as single on the 1911 Census so maybe a sister-in-law to Clarissa.
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According to the WWI Draft Reg Card,
James Murray Hanna, born June 7, 1895, had a home address of Atlin, B.C. Residence is listed as Skagway, First Judicial District, Alaska
Could this be James Murray?
J.M. Hanna, born 7 June 1895, passed away 17 February 1993, last residence Stanwood, Snohomish, Washington
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Someone has James Murray in their tree. Unfortunately, he is one of 25,000 in the tree.
http://wc.rootsweb.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?op=GET&db=fmty&id=I10007
Maybe the person might be able to shed some light on the Hanna/Smith families?
It appears that James Murray was living in Washington, USA prior to 1919. I wonder if Sydney left British Columbia as well? It's odd that we haven't been able to find Alma yet.
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Hi again Lisa,
You have been busy again, I do apprciate all your help.
I have googling and found a tree that mentions Sydney along with his parents but not Alma or any children. The tree says he died in Alaska but no date or other details. I will try and contact the owner to see if he knows more.
I wonder if Sydney would have been drafted in 1917 for the War?
I wonder what happened to Alma ???
Kind regards
Leandra
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Hi Leandra:
I hope the owner of the tree responds and is able to give you a bit of information.
I don't know about other families, but I've found that my ancestors were not on the WWI Canadian Attestation Papers if they were born prior to c1885. Others may have different results. I don't have any American ancestors, but from what I've seen when researching, WWI American Draft Reg Cards have included people born in 1882. So, there is a chance that Sydney may have perished prior to 1917 since we cannot seem to find him after 1911.
Have you tried to find another marriage for Alma?
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Lisa,
I am still searching for a marrige, I haveone death for Alma Smith in 1974 age 86 in Vancouver, however the age is out by 4 years, given that Alma and Smith are not uncommon names to say the least I will keep searching.
Kind regards
Leandra
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As you say, Smith is a common name, but to add to the growing list of Smith items:
Find A Grave (site mentioned previously) has burials in Evergreen Cemetery, Juneau, Juneau Borough, Alaska for Sydney Smith and Mrs. Sydney Smith, both with unknown years of birth, both died October 1918.
:-\
I wonder if they both may have perished on a ship in 1918? (Providing of course that your Sydney actually did perish on board a ship.)
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Gosh thats interesting, do you know how I would get a death certificate for that particular Sydney?
Cheers
Leandra
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Sorry for the delay in responding...my computer is having issues. ::)
If you would like to order a certificate, I would suggest a "state" site (rather than a private site). I do not know anything about this site, so please read it carefully!
http://www.hss.state.ak.us/dph/bvs/
I was trying to post (before I went offline) that maybe you could try internet searches for the sinking or loss of a ship near Juneau in 1918?
Or, possibly try searches for the death of Sydney and his wife in 1918, in or near Juneau, Alaska. Perhaps there might be a write-up in a local newspaper, since they both died around the same time?
I am going to give my computer a rest for a while. Sorry for leaving on short notice. I will come back in a bit...maybe someone else might have suggestions, or maybe you might find something wonderful.
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Thank you again Lisa for the suggestions, I will do some googling, and for the link :)
What time is it in your part of the world?
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Hi Leandra:
I live in Northern California. It is 10:30 p.m. here. We have an older cat that keeps me awake at night, so I'm often at the computer in the middle of the night, which means I'm tired a lot during the day. ::)
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Hmmm sounds a bit like my cats, I have five (mad cat woman) they all seem to be wanting out at different times of the night, its worse than having a newborn in the house :) Its 6.45 pm here, dinner time
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Hi
I've been researching marine disasters tonight and have found accounts of the shipwreck of the SS Princess Sophia, a CPR Steamship, on October 25, 1918. There were at least 343 and possibly more aboard the ship and there were no survivors. It is known as the worst maritime disaster to occur off the West Coast of North America.
Here is one link to a facebook page in remembrance of the disaster:
http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=52698639137
I did find a passenger list but got interrupted with a phone call and have lost it....will post the link in a few minutes when I find it again!!
Susan
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Susan, I just found a link, too. So far, no mention of passengers.
http://library.state.ak.us/hist/exhibits/shipwrecks.html
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Leandra, we have two cats, both are not allowed outside. The older cat has taken to howling in the night.
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Susan mentioned it was the worst maritime disaster off the West Coast of North America.
If a passenger list cannot be found, perhaps one of the descendants of Alma's siblings might have heard of their passing?
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Its such a sad sad story, I have been reading some newpaper reports from the facebook link, just about weeping for those poor people. I am just trying to read the list that was in the paper.
I can see a Mr and Mrs J S Smith and two of their children, most likely someone else, will see if I can find the list elsewhere.
Regards
Leandra
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I found a passenger list but think it is the same as the one in the newspaper account.
http://www.rootschat.com/links/0a8i/
There are a few Smiths on the list but I did notice a Mr. and Mrs. J. S. Smith and 2 children.
It is so sad to read the reports and newspaper articles!! How terrifying it must have been for all those passengers and crew and rescue ships that were standing by to help!!
Susan
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There are a couple of volunteers in Juneau with the Random Acts of Genealogical Kindness that may be able to help with a look up of the graves you found in Juneau.
http://www.raogk.org/alaska.htm
There's some information at the following site about researching in Alaska, vital records, etc.
http://www.ancestry.com/wiki/index.php?title=Alaska_Vital_Records
Susan
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Hi Susan,
It is so dreadfully sad reading accounts like that, what a way to die, those poor souls.
I notice the bodies of J S Smith and his wife were missing.
My next step is to check where the Evergreen Cemetery that Lisa mentioned earlier is, maybe its near where the unidentifie bodies were buried.
Thankyou for the new links :) we have RAOGK here in NZ as well.
Kind regards
Leandra
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I've been reading about the disaster. A couple of sites mention that a lot of the bodies were buried at Evergreen.
After checking Find A Grave, only Mr. and Mrs. Sydney Smith were buried in Evergreen (that is, they are the only Smiths buried in October 1918).
I would be very interested in hearing any results from any lookups (I would think Susan would be interested, as well).
While there were Smiths that were mentioned in the reports, it seems a bit coincidental that your family thought he perished in a maritime accident, and that there is a grave for Mr. & Mrs. Sydney Smith. And, we still have not been able to find Alma (although she could have married after the death of Sydney).
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According to this site, Mr. & Mrs. Sydney Smith were buried in Evergreen. A Sydney Smith, Jr. was also buried on the same day (October 25, 1918).
http://www.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~akcjunea/cemeteries/evergreenBurialS.html
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I think the coincidence is to big to ignore :) The cemetery record says Mrs, Sydney and Syd Jnr were buried on the 25th of October the same day as the Sophia sank.
Do you think burials would have hppened the same day? My feeling is its very likely with so many bodies.
The record also says they were buried in the Masonic section of the cemetery, may I ask exactly what that means? I have not come across that before, usually Catholic, Baptist presb etc.
Regards
Leandra
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Freemasonry is a fraternal order. Members are known as Masons. I've run across Masonic sections of cemeteries before where members of the order and their family can be buried.
Here's a link to an explanation: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freemasonry
I was always under the impression it was an organization for members who were predominantly Protestant....sort of the equivalent to the Knights of Columbus which is a Catholic fraternal order. I certainly could be wrong about that!!
I think it is just too coincidental that the dates for the burial of Mr. and Mrs. Sydney Smith and son are the same as the date of the sinking of the Princess Sophia....October 25, 1918. Perhaps the dates were entered in the wrong column.
I think that there were links for lookups and volunteers on that website. It would be interesting to be in contact with someone in Juneau as there could be lots of information there.
Please do keep us informed of any findings. As an aside, I just watched the 48 minute Sea Hunters: Princess Sophia Tragedy video which is a link on that facebook page. It is very interesting.
Regards,
Susan
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I have come across Freemasons but never seen it it cemeteries, its all very secretive here :)
If they buried Sydney and family on the same day I expect they would have had no idea if he was a mason or not.
I most certainly will let you know if I find out more from all the link syou and Lisa have given me, and I will try to contact people Juneau, I am truly overwhelmed by your kindness. I am going to check out the video now :)
Kind regards
Leandra
p.s you must be up late again tonight Susan, hope you get some sleep.
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Good luck with your continued search, Leandra.
It is way past my bedtime once again....but I am so totally addicted to this family history stuff and Rootschat that I spend way too much time on the computer!! When I seem to be stalled on my own family, I love to watch other threads and participate if I think I can add something meaningful. I have learned so much interesting history since joining RC...it's amazing for someone like me who found history all very boring when I had to study it many years ago in school!!
Susan
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The last time Sydney was spotted, he was in Atlin. Maybe you could try searching for newspaper archives that might have a "local" paper, which might mention the sad event and the Smith names (providing it was his family that was on the ship).
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I had a thread a while back looking for old neighbours who ended up in Atlin and lots of links were posted there at the time. You might also try contacting atlinhelen for local advice (she posted on the thread).
www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,336847.0.html
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Thankyou aghadowey and Lisa,
I am going to spend this afternoon contacting people from all the links you have so kindly provided. I will let you know how I get on.
Kindest regards
Leandra
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You are quite welcome.
I hope you are able to determine if the Smith family was yours (either if they were yours, or weren't, so you can start to look elsewhere).
Best of luck.
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Hi Leandra
Did you notice that a couple of the members on the FB page are Smiths? Common name but you just never know!!
A number of the crew and passengers (67) were buried in Mountain view cemetery in Vancouver, BC...no Smiths that I can see.
Susan
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Hello everyone,
Well things have moved on today, I took aghadowey's advice and contacted atlinhelen, amazingly she spoke to her Mum who has spent many years working at Archives and she remembered the name Sydney Smith and his wife Alma Hanna, the drowning of the Sophia and Almas connection to other families in the community. In her personal collection it mentions Sydney had two children.
Atlinhelen has very kindly offerd to email me some information.
This would never have happened without all your incredible effort here on this thread. I am so truly grateful to you all.
Kindest regards
Leandra
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Oh, Leandra, that is such wonderful news!! I am so happy you are getting more information and from someone who lives in the community.
Please keep us posted.
Susan
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Hi Susan,
I will keep you posted. I still can't believe you all found a man named Smith all the way on the other side of the world :D
Regards
Leandra
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Hi Leandra:
Thank you for letting us know of your results. I'm sorry to hear that it sounds like your Sydney and his family were on the ship, but at least you have some answers.
I'm looking forward to hearing more about the family.
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I wonder why he was referenced as J. S. Smith? I wonder if we might be able to find additional immigration records, using his initials?
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That is great news. Isn't the Internet wonderful for linking people all over the world! I thought it was fantastic that from Ireland I was able to trace a family that moved all the way to Atlin and now Helen is able to give you so many details about Sidney's family.
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Hi Leandra
I was at the FHS library today and did a look up of the marriage registration for Sydney Smith and Alma Hanna. If you would like the transcription, send me your email address via PM and I'll get the information to you.
Susan
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PM sent :)