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Beginners => Family History Beginners Board => Topic started by: valeriet on Sunday 31 October 10 13:16 GMT (UK)
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Hello there.
I can't seem to make any headway with my tree of my Mums side of the family. My grandmother's name was Florence Emily Fiddler/Fidler and became Chevreau when she married in 1924. I have her wedding certificate but thats about it. She said that she was born in July 30 1903 although her age on the wedding certificate was 21 which suggests her birthdate might have been 1902.
I can find no one with her name, in the right area, of the right age in the birth records. I haven't been able to find her on the 1911 census. On her wedding certificate her fathers name was recorded as Robert George Fiddler (deceased) and he was a "Brewer". She married in London, St George, Hanover square and her address was recorded as 211 St Leonards Street, SW1 and her husband Robert Leon Chevreau lived at 14 Lillington Street, also SW1.
I don't know what her mothers name was and I can't find a definite match for her dad anywhere on census or birth records. I don't know what to do next!
A few other things I remember her telling me, when I was a child....bearing in mind I might not remember it with 100%accuracy....she told me that her mother died when she was very young (the age of 7 rings a bell) from breast cancer. Her Dad remarried and she gained 2 step-sisters who were unkine to her as was her step-mother. She described it similarly to a cinderella type situation and I think that when she was old enough she ran away and went into service as a scullery maid.
I don't know if any of this can help me in my seach but I would appreciate and help and advice that anyone has to offer.
Thank you!
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Hi
Welcome to Rootschat :D
A few things to consider, if you haven't already. Florence was illegitimate and Robert fictional or a grandfather. Mum may have married/remarried after the birth so Florence appeared in 1911 under a different surname. Florence wasn't born in the area you think she was. She wasn't born as Fiddler/Fidler.
I will have a scout round for you
Jan ;)
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Or maybe she was younger than she said when she married?
Have you discounted this one?
Florence Emily Fidler Jul qtr 1906 Lambeth Vol1d Pg 297
Jan ;)
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I think you mean the September ¼ 1906 :)
Ages on marriage certificates are not reliable, as no proof of age had to be given.
Stan
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The 1906 one has a June birthday (according to christening records that I think belong to this Florence and the parents names also don't match.
I don't think Robert was fictional and it seems unlikely he was a grandfather but couldnt be definite. Being illegitimate is a possibility....I guess that might have accounted for hostility between the perhaps legitimate step-sisters but....dont know how I would ever resolve that question...
I have a vague memory of my grandmother saying that she (or maybe her parents) were born within the sound of Bow bells...true cockneys or something like that. Thanks for your help.....as much as I am enthusiastic about doing my family tree in general, this is very important to me as I loved her very much and would like to know something about where she came from.
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Just to say that as you had 42 days to register a birth someone born in June could be registered in the September ¼
Stan
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I think you mean the September ¼ 1906 :)
I'm sure I do Stan ;D
Valerie
This must be very frustrating for you.
As the marriage certificate is the only definite piece of information you have - who were the witnesses they might lead somewhere.
Jan ;)
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what about the sisters' names? Does your mum remember any aunts or uncles? As Jan says, who were the witnesses on the marriage certificate?
Family stories can be useful, but they're not always totally correct. things can get invented, or mangled in the telling from one to the other, and things get forgotten and only half remembered.
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Yes it is frustrating!
The witnesses were G.M Chevreau (George Marcel Chevreau). her husbands brother and George Chevreau her husbands father (who also seems to be nowhere in sight, but thats another story!) :-)
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what about the sisters' names? Does your mum remember any aunts or uncles? As Jan says, who were the witnesses on the marriage certificate?
Family stories can be useful, but they're not always totally correct. things can get invented, or mangled in the telling from one to the other, and things get forgotten and only half remembered.
My Mum passed away 2005 and so have her siblings...I only have 2 cousins who might possibly remember some more information as they are older than me. Haven't been in touch with them for a while but I really hope they have something they can tell me.
I dont remember my Mum talking about any aunts and uncles. Her Dad was very strict and controlling so maybe they didnt have much contact with that side of the family.
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I've just found a Robert Fiddler on the 1901 Census who is a Brewers labourer...his wife is amelia (which rings a bell I think...but not sure). There are 2 brothers Robert and George and sisters Amelia and Florence. The names sound right some how but what doesnt match up is that if this is correct my nan was born in 1897!
BUT....what I do like is that when I look up the possible mum Amelia....she died in 1904 which would make my Grandmother (if she was born in 1897) seven years old!
It all matches up very nicely except for the age....did people often get their ages that far out?
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Ages are not to be relied on in censuses, marriage documents, death registrations and any other records except the birth certificate. people can and did alter them, forget the years that had passed, age or younger (?) themselves etc etc
How old was Robert when she married him. Lots of women reduced their ages if the chap was younger.
(added - Looks like he was Sept 1901 southwark registration district - from freebmd)
So she could well have knocked some years off to be younger than him. Well done for finding that 1901 census, at least it's something to work on and might tie up with anything else you can find out, re sisters, re-marriage of the father etc.
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Have you discounted this one?
Florence Emily Fidler Jul qtr 1906 Lambeth Vol1d Pg 297
This one appears likely to have died young:
Death, Sep qtr 1909
Florence Emily FIDLER aged 3
Lambeth 1d 173
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Yes thats true...could try to find a re-marriage. I've looked up Florence Fidler with an earlier birthdate though and can't find her.....:-(
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Good find in 1901 valerie :D
How about this Florence?
Florence Fidler Dec qtr 1896 St Saviour Southwark Vol 1d Pg 91
Jan ;)
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Have a look in the 1911 census http://www.1911census.co.uk/search/tnaform.aspx?2
put in Fidler for the surname, Islington for the residential place, and Florance in other members of the household. Florance (note spelling) is with a Robert b 1857
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Hi All
Valerie, had been looking at the family you found and thought it might be likely with the info you have. There is a potential death for mother Amelia, which might fit with the family stories:
Amelia Ann Fidler, 42 in Edmonton. 3rd Qrt 1904 Vol. 3a Pg. 290.
Monica :)
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Trouble is, the only death of a Robert Fidler that is in freebmd that matches the age, is in 1934 Shoreditch aged 76, which fits with the age of the one on the 1911. mmmh.
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Have to go off for a while now....be back later. Thanks so much for the help....its quite a conundrum!
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Here's the family in 1891:
1891 census: RG12/353/61/28
14 Harper St, Newington, Surrey
Robert V. FIDLER Head M 33 Brewer's labourer London Shoreditch
Amelia A. do Wife M 29 London Shoreditch
Robert A. do Son 2 London Bermondsey
George W. do Son 8mo London Newington
Charles COOPER Wife's brother 11 Scholar London Shoreditch
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Trouble is, the only death of a Robert Fidler that is in freebmd that matches the age, is in 1934 Shoreditch aged 76, which fits with the age of the one on the 1911. mmmh.
That could still be him - Florence may have considered him deceased when she married if she was estranged from him.
Jan ;)
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Could be them getting married?
14 June 1885, St Thomas, Bethnal Green
Robert Fidler, aged 25, Bachelor, Bricklayer of 14 Durant Street, son of William Fidler, Painter
married
Amelia Cooper, aged 24, Spinster, Millener of 9 Durant Street, dau of George Cooper, Printer
witnesses: George Henry Cooper and Lucy King
and a couple of children .....
St Thomas, Bethnal Green:-
Robert Albert Fidler, born 19 September 1888, christened 28 October 1888, living 18 Luxford Street, Rotherhithe, fathers occupation Labourer
George William Fidler, born 5 August 1890, christened 14 September 1890, living 9 Durant Street, father's occupation Labourer.
St Andrew, Enfield
James Charles Fidler, born 5 November 1898, christened 31 July 1899, living 19 Fifth Avenue, father's occupation Labourer. This one was a private baptism.
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Trouble is, the only death of a Robert Fidler that is in freebmd that matches the age, is in 1934 Shoreditch aged 76, which fits with the age of the one on the 1911. mmmh.
That could still be him - Florence may have considered him deceased when she married if she was estranged from him.
Jan ;)
Very true, Jan. The death cert would be worth getting to see who registered it. May or may not help. But death certs can be very useful.
Just as a story, I was looking for a g'grandmother and the only one that fitted name+area was ten years too young. Sent for it anyway, turned out her married daughter had registered it. Great cert, sent me down another line. Would never have found the marriage.
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My head is going round in circles ??? :-\
There seem to be different middle names for Robert which is making me have a few doubts....at some point he is down as Robert Zachariah even.
And I'm a bit agog at the idea that my grandmother might have been a hundred years old when she died a=nd not 90...
I think I might need to look at these place names on a map to get a picture of where they went and moved....see if it looks feasible.
I wonder also if Roberts profession of "brewer" could be used to track him down in some way or my grandmothers time in service.....
It was interesting the possible marriage into a Copper family because I already have an Amelia Cooper on my family tree - albeit on my fathers side :-)
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Have a look in the 1911 census http://www.1911census.co.uk/search/tnaform.aspx?2
put in Fidler for the surname, Islington for the residential place, and Florance in other members of the household. Florance (note spelling) is with a Robert b 1857
Have you had a look in the 1911 census, to see what is the occupation of Robert?
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I did see a possible parish marriage for sister Amelia Ann Fidler (from the family we have) in 1921. One of the witnesses was an Emily Florence and then looks like Knox!
Monica
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Have a look in the 1911 census http://www.1911census.co.uk/search/tnaform.aspx?2
put in Fidler for the surname, Islington for the residential place, and Florance in other members of the household. Florance (note spelling) is with a Robert b 1857
Have you had a look in the 1911 census, to see what is the occupation of Robert?
Yes he is a Handyman in a brewery - and a widower. Which works :-)
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I did see a possible parish marriage for sister Amelia Ann Fidler (from the family we have) in 1921. One of the witnesses was an Emily Florence and then looks like Knox!
Monica
Shame about the Knox bit! Have you Fidlers in your family?
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No, I don't have the name in my line, pity!
Robert, father, showed as a handyman on daughter Amelia Ann's 1921 marriage. Certainly all fits with the family found. As to whether it is the right family for you Florence Emily...jury's still out ;)
Monica
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This is the signature of Emily Florence Knox from the 1921 parish register marriage of Amelia Fidler d/o Robert. How does it compare to the signature you have from the 1924 marriage?
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Emily Florence Knox birth was registered Shoreditch Dec Q 1901 per free BMD.
She was baptized Oct 6, 1901 Haggerston St Mary Hackney, d/o William & Emily Knox. William was a labourer.
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The whole marriage certficate appears to be written by the same hand unfortunately.
I was hoping that if I could find some more information on her husnbands family, I might come across something relating to the Fidlers but they Chevreau family are just as elusive. :-(
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Possible re-marriage for Robert
Sept quarter 1913, St Pancras 1b 57 to Ada Gibson
which would make Florence aged 16 at the time.
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The whole marriage certficate appears to be written by the same hand unfortunately.
I was hoping that if I could find some more information on her husnbands family, I might come across something relating to the Fidlers but they Chevreau family are just as elusive. :-(
Ah yes, it must be one from the GRO. Was it a civil or church marriage? If church, it may still be possible to view the original document to compare signatures.
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It was a registry office wedding. I remember Nan saying that a priest turned up at their house one day (her husband was Catholic) and told them that they weren't married in the eyes of God or something like that.
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Possible re-marriage for Robert
Sept quarter 1913, St Pancras 1b 57 to Ada Gibson
which would make Florence aged 16 at the time.
Thats a possibility. I suppose I need to explore whether there were step-daughters there.
I am so grateful for all the help you lovely people are giving me. What a great community :-)
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Just turning to the Chevreau family.
George Marcel was b Dec 1896 Lambeth 1d 376
Looking in the latest census we have (the free search) there is a bunch of children in residential place Croydon with the name Chevrean. One is George aged 14 dob 1897 and another Robert aged 9 dob 1902. What do you think?
they are a bit young to be on their own, so the parent(s) must be mistranscribed I should think. You would need to look at the record to see if anything is useful.
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It doesn't help that all of my Nans in laws seem to have avoided the censuses. I have a death certficate from 1912 of her mother in law but when I look up the address that they were living at according to that certificate on the 1911 census...they aren't mentioned at all!
Wish my tree was easier to do lol!
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Just turning to the Chevreau family.
George Marcel was b Dec 1896 Lambeth 1d 376
Looking in the latest census we have (the free search) there is a bunch of children in residential place Croydon with the name Chevrean. One is George aged 14 dob 1897 and another Robert aged 9 dob 1902. What do you think?
they are a bit young to be on their own, so the parent(s) must be mistranscribed I should think. You would need to look at the record to see if anything is useful.
Just missed your post before my last one....now that sounds very promising! Will go and look at that right now, thank you!
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There's a George Cheverean aged 40 b 1871 also in Croydon.
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In case you didn't know, if you go to advanced search you can do all sorts of variations. And with a name like Chevreau it's a certainty that it will get mistranscribed.
Same with ancestry, put in Chev* and do a search, rather than the full name.
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Thank you so much Silvery! That's the one!
I paid to see the whole record and the whole Chevreau family are there ;D
Father is there - George the hotel timekeeper, his wife Marie Dupuy (both born in France) , the two brothers I knew about and 4 other children I didnt know about. I'm chuffed to bits to see this!
Maybe if I delve in there I might find more clues around my Nan :-)
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Thanks for those tips Silvery....that has really opened things up.
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Do you have this Chevreau family living in Fulham in 1901? They are transcribed as Chevrean.
Ref RG13/Piece66/Folio31/Page8
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Possible re-marriage for Robert
Sept quarter 1913, St Pancras 1b 57 to Ada Gibson
which would make Florence aged 16 at the time.
Nope - the Robert on that one is 24 - perhaps Robert's son. On that marriage cert he says that his father is deceased - that said, he also says that his father is a hair dresser...........bit of a career change from a brewer!
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Got to go out now....but will be back later. :)
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Could be them getting married?
14 June 1885, St Thomas, Bethnal Green
Robert Fidler, aged 25, Bachelor, Bricklayer of 14 Durant Street, son of William Fidler, Painter
married
Amelia Cooper, aged 24, Spinster, Millener of 9 Durant Street, dau of George Cooper, Printer
The details from that marriage cert would fit with a baptism for RObert Zachariah Fidler (indexed as Lacana!) Parents William and MAry ANn Fidler, he is a painter, living at 13 Queen Place. Baptised at St Leonards SHoreditch 3rd June 1858
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I think I'm going to order the marriage certificates of the Chevreau children - they may have some more information (Fidler witnesses) that might help me to work out whether I'm on the right track with Florence and Robert.
I have some issue with ancestry website. When I do a search for Chevreau's I get pages and pages of Coopers. I can't for the life of me see how Chevreau can sound like Cooper or be similar to. Am I missing something? I try the chev* option but I often get a zero result with that.
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Do you have this Chevreau family living in Fulham in 1901? They are transcribed as Chevrean.
Ref RG13/Piece66/Folio31/Page8
Did you have a look at this one? (try chevr* for searching, and see what happens something should show)
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If you go to FreeBMD and search Births CHEVREAU between 1885 and 1910 ten of them turn up ;D
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Do you have this Chevreau family living in Fulham in 1901? They are transcribed as Chevrean.
Ref RG13/Piece66/Folio31/Page8
Did you have a look at this one? (try chevr* for searching, and see what happens something should show)
I don't recognise the names but they could be siblings/nieces and nephews of George and Marie.
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she gave her age as 21 when she married this may just indicate she was of full age to marry and not actually 21 years old :)
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If you go to FreeBMD and search Births CHEVREAU between 1885 and 1910 ten of them turn up ;D
Thanks for that - seems you get the best results if you use a combination of websites :-)
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she gave her age as 21 when she married this may just indicate she was of full age to marry and not actually 21 years old :)
Yes thats true :-)
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My mother Emily Florence Knox was born at Shoreditch UK in 1901, her family lived in Hackney, her mothers name was Emily and her fathers name was William. She married Sidney Banks in December 1928 at the age of 27 years. If this is of any interest please contact I live in Australia.
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https://www.familysearch.org/search/records#count=20&query=%2Bgivenname%3A%22Florence%20Emily%22%7E%20%2Bsurname%3AFiddler%7E%20%2Bany_place%3Aengland%7E&marriage_place0=5
sylvia
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Update - I eventually found out that my grandmother was born in 1896 and was in fact 100 when she died!
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That's solved that mystery then. It's always a good idea to assume someone is older than they say they are. My g.gran, after her first husband died "lost" 13 years in her age when she got together with my g.grandad as he was so much younger than her.
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Glad the mystery is solved :D
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Yes, I ordered a birth certificate for her with the 1896 date - expecting it to belong to someone else but all the details confirmed it was her - she should have owned up and she could have had a telegram from the Queen! :)
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Don't wish to interfere, but has anyone looked on the1939 register. At least it would give dated of birth & possibly chldren.
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Don't wish to interfere, but has anyone looked on the1939 register. At least it would give dated of birth & possibly chldren.
I've traced my nan now thank you - but not looked at the 1939 register - good to have some new sources :)
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Don't wish to interfere, but has anyone looked on the1939 register. At least it would give dated of birth & possibly chldren.
Matches her death certificate
But her husband is born 1908 which is why she has probably claimed the 5 year gap rather than the actual 12 year gap
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Don't wish to interfere, but has anyone looked on the1939 register. At least it would give dated of birth & possibly chldren.
Matches her death certificate
But her husband is born 1908 which is why she has probably claimed the 5 year gap rather than the actual 12 year gap
He was born in 1901 but even so, I don't think it was the done thing to be older than your husband :)
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I suppose it could be a 1 on the 1939 - 24th June?
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I suppose it could be a 1 on the 1939 - 24th June?
Yes it's 24th June 1901 :)
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Nice to have an update and an ending. Glad you got sorted.
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Nice to have an update and an ending. Glad you got sorted.
Me too, thank you :)
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What page is ending on pls
.ive put this story aside to read later .
Read 1st and last page .looks like 1 for " history mysteries "
It is the era im investigating for t"fostered "babies
passed off as bitrh babies
But missing birth certs or dna not matching
It would be great to find one of the midsing bBies
But you found solution
Advice given on 1st.page wi ll help my detective assistants learn skills of ancestry .Will my 17 year old grandson be.reeled in bybexciting way i do fsmily tree . Sorry rambling